For Palerider: The Problem With Muslims

[9sublime]

http://www.yerkir.am/eng/index.php?sub=news_arm&id=30337

You say Muslims sit in silence therefore supporting Islam. Well this pretty much destroys that view for one Muslim country anyway. And as they are all part of a huge faction and conspiracy I guess it helps the rest of the Islamic nations too.

[palerider]

One day? What changes came about?

[9sublime]

That wasn't your point. You're point was that you had never seen an organized anti-radical Islam event or organization. This was set up by several anti-government organizations and one happened the week before. And it will cause change, they will change their president, and move away from radical Islam. I was showing you how a Muslim country still wants it's army and government secular.

[palerider]

That wasn't your point. You're point was that you had never seen an organized anti-radical Islam event or organization. This was set up by several anti-government organizations and one happened the week before. And it will cause change, they will change their president, and move away from radical Islam. I was showing you how a Muslim country still wants it's army and government secular.


No. My point wasn't that I have never seen muslims protest against terrorist activities, my point was that the vast vast vast majority of muslims, through their continued silence, concent to, and encourage terrorism in the name of allah.

By the way, turkey is not a muslim country. Perhaps most of its citizens are muslim but it is not a muslim country.

[rmarin]

No. My point wasn't that I have never seen muslims protest against terrorist activities, my point was that the vast vast vast majority of muslims, through their continued silence, concent to, and encourage terrorism in the name of allah.

By the way, turkey is not a muslim country. Perhaps most of its citizens are muslim but it is not a muslim country. Agreed. And the world has not received many threats from Turkey.

[vyo476]

Agreed. And the world has not received many threats from Turkey.

Not lately, but Turkey used to be at the center of a little something we called the "Ottoman Empire."

[vyo476]

No. My point wasn't that I have never seen muslims protest against terrorist activities, my point was that the vast vast vast majority of muslims, through their continued silence, concent to, and encourage terrorism in the name of allah.


Palerider, by your rhetoric, doesn't the Qur'an instruct Muslims to wage jihad? Specifically to take action? Than why aren't more of the 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide doing so? Aren't they already "bad Muslims" then, since they aren't actively waging jihad? The Qur'an does not say, "Wage jihad...or sit around and watch while others do it."

This is, of course, disregarding the unsettled disagreement we've already had on the real meaning of "jihad."

[rmarin]

Not lately, but Turkey used to be at the center of a little something we called the "Ottoman Empire." It does not have anything to do with what we are talking about. No anti islamic protest from Iran or yemen....

[Fonz]

I completely agree with Palerider.

It is unfortunate, that he gives Christians a free ride, rather hypocritcal if you ask me, but At least he recognizes that we oughta stop treating Islam like its some sort of peaceful religion thats been hijacked by extremists.

[9sublime]

Well when was the last time you say 750,000 + rally against peadaphilia twice in a week? So once again we are coming to the conclusion that everyone is a peadaphile.

[palerider]

Palerider, by your rhetoric, doesn't the Qur'an instruct Muslims to wage jihad? Specifically to take action? Than why aren't more of the 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide doing so? Aren't they already "bad Muslims" then, since they aren't actively waging jihad? The Qur'an does not say, "Wage jihad...or sit around and watch while others do it."

Yes, they are bad muslims which is why they maintain their silence. Should they speak out, they will be proclaiming openly that they are bad muslims and become infidels in the eyes of the good muslims.

This is, of course, disregarding the unsettled disagreement we've already had on the real meaning of "jihad."

The books of the qur'an describe perfectly the meaning of jihad.

The qur'an issued its first order to fight Jihad in the 190th verse of the 2nd surah. The translators of the qur'an wanted to make certain Muslims understood what "Fighting in the Way of Allah" meant. So they provided this definition which is derived entirely from the Qur'an and Sunnah:

"Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite."

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


Bukhari:V4B53N386: "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"


The "real" meaning of jihad is obvious.

[9sublime]

All these quotes from Islam. These are outdated and not believed by most Muslims. The Bible teaches exactly the same thing in many passages, and even more ridiculous things in other.

YOU NEED TO LET GO OF PASSAGES LIKE THIS JUST LIKE YOU HAVE LET THEM SLIP IN CHRISTIANITY BEFORE YOU CAN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND NORMAL ISLAM AS IT IS TODAY.

[vyo476]

"Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite."

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Yes, they are bad muslims which is why they maintain their silence. Should they speak out, they will be proclaiming openly that they are bad muslims and become infidels in the eyes of the good muslims.



But they already would be infidels in the eyes of the "good" Muslims. By refusing to fight in the name of Allah and simply sitting back and doing nothing they would be infidels, as bad as those that the mujahideen (sp?) are fighting. Whether or not silence is "consent" wouldn't matter; the "good" Muslims would have a duty to kill all the "silent" Muslims because all the "silent" Muslims would be violating a "pillar" of the "utmost importance in Islam."

[9sublime]

To be honest Palerider, in the "probelm with muslims" thread, you said words to the effect that Muslims don't have any organizations against terrorism and radical Islam, but we don't need to actively rally against peadaphilia because we have organizations that do it for us.

Well, I've found a million people doing it, organized by various organizations that you said never existed.

It looks like your being beaten all over the forum, like the marajuana thread.

[palerider]

All these quotes from Islam. These are outdated and not believed by most Muslims. The Bible teaches exactly the same thing in many passages, and even more ridiculous things in other.

YOU NEED TO LET GO OF PASSAGES LIKE THIS JUST LIKE YOU HAVE LET THEM SLIP IN CHRISTIANITY BEFORE YOU CAN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND NORMAL ISLAM AS IT IS TODAY.

Good Christians don't follow those instructions. Good muslims do. Which is exactly why muslims that don't follow them are very hesitant to reveal that they don't as they will be identifying themselves as infidels.

[palerider]

But they already would be infidels in the eyes of the "good" Muslims. By refusing to fight in the name of Allah and simply sitting back and doing nothing they would be infidels, as bad as those that the mujahideen (sp?) are fighting. Whether or not silence is "consent" wouldn't matter; the "good" Muslims would have a duty to kill all the "silent" Muslims because all the "silent" Muslims would be violating a "pillar" of the "utmost importance in Islam."

Nope. The qur'an gives a higher status to muslims who fight than to muslims who don't, but doesn't command that muslims who don't fight be killed while it does command that muslims who go agianst islam's command to fight the infidel until only allah is worshipped are to be killed.

[palerider]

To be honest Palerider, in the "probelm with muslims" thread, you said words to the effect that Muslims don't have any organizations against terrorism and radical Islam, but we don't need to actively rally against peadaphilia because we have organizations that do it for us.

No. I said that we as a society have made it illegal and there are not only harsh punishments for those who engage in it, but punishments as well for those who protect them from detection and those who provide materials for them. Our society has made it against the law. Which muslim country has declared that jihad is illegal and that those engaging in it, those who protect people who engage in it, or those who provide materials for those who engage in it are subject to imprisonment.

Well, I've found a million people doing it, organized by various organizations that you said never existed.

Who is in charge of the organizations? What are the officers names? Where do they have their meetings?

It looks like your being beaten all over the forum, like the marajuana thread.

You have an odd concept of what being beaten is. Rokerijdude was making a lot of claims to the effect that pot posed no danger to the health of those who used it. I provided ample evidence to the contrary and he continues to say read "the book" as if it proved anything. His "book" is written by a man who, as far as I can tell, doesn't even have an associates degree from a local junior college. Hardly credible in the face of teams of research scientists. I more than proved my point so how you get "beaten" out of that is a mystery to me. The fact that he refuses to accept credible evidence is not my problem.

http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3856&postcount=39

[9sublime]

Good Christians don't follow those instructions. Good muslims do. Which is exactly why muslims that don't follow them are very hesitant to reveal that they don't as they will be identifying themselves as infidels.


Reverend Phelps and various fundamentalist Christians who take the bible literally probably regard you as some kind of infidel, but you don't class Rev. Phelps as a good Christian.

The people who regard suicide bombing Muslims as 'good muslims' are the fundamentalist of Islam such as Osama Bin Laden.

You've just proved a total intolerance, misunderstanding, ignorance to average, productive memebers of society who are Muslim.

[vyo476]

Nope. The qur'an gives a higher status to muslims who fight than to muslims who don't, but doesn't command that muslims who don't fight be killed while it does command that muslims who go agianst islam's command to fight the infidel until only allah is worshipped are to be killed.

If possible I would like to see the Qur'an passage that supports this. If you have already posted it somewhere just let me know where.

Why don't they fight? If the desire to not be identified as a bad Muslim is stronger than the desire not to die (every time I've said that moderate Muslims just don't want to be killed for expressing their beliefs you've said that they don't because it would make them "bad" Muslims) why don't they make themselves "better" Muslims by actively participating?

[palerider]

Reverend Phelps and various fundamentalist Christians who take the bible literally probably regard you as some kind of infidel, but you don't class Rev. Phelps as a good Christian.

But I can tell reverend phelps to his face that I don't believe what he believes without fear of myself, and my family being killed in retaliation.

The people who regard suicide bombing Muslims as 'good muslims' are the fundamentalist of Islam such as Osama Bin Laden.

And all those who don't speak out because they don't want to be identified as a bad muslim and killed in accordance with the qur'an.

[palerider]

If possible I would like to see the Qur'an passage that supports this. If you have already posted it somewhere just let me know where.

I have already posted it. If you can't find it, let me know and I will repost it for you.

Why don't they fight? If the desire to not be identified as a bad Muslim is stronger than the desire not to die (every time I've said that moderate Muslims just don't want to be killed for expressing their beliefs you've said that they don't because it would make them "bad" Muslims) why don't they make themselves "better" Muslims by actively participating?

Why don't all Christians go to church?
Why don't we all wear only blue neckties?
Why don't we all like asparagus?

Why they don't fight is irrelavent. Why they don't speak out and identify themselves as people who don't believe as the good muslims believe is obvious. They don't want to be killed as infidels.

[9sublime]

But I can tell reverend phelps to his face that I don't believe what he believes without fear of myself, and my family being killed in retaliation.



AND YOU'VE DESTROYED YOUR OWN POINT. Muslims don't believe the radicals in general, just like you don't believe Phelps like most other Christians.

But you won't get killed, so you would speak against Phelps.

Most Muslims will have bad things happen to them, so they don't speak out, NOT BECAUSE they support terrorism.

[palerider]

AND YOU'VE DESTROYED YOUR OWN POINT. Muslims don't believe the radicals in general, just like you don't believe Phelps like most other Christians.

But you won't get killed, so you would speak against Phelps.

Most Muslims will have bad things happen to them, so they don't speak out, NOT BECAUSE they support terrorism.

Which is the nature of islam. I don't know what you believe you have proved here other than muslims who want peace must hide from the good muslims else they will be killed.

And the fact that they don't speak out doesn't change the fact that silence implies concent.

[9sublime]

Which is the nature of islam. I don't know what you believe you have proved here other than muslims who want peace must hide from the good muslims else they will be killed.

And the fact that they don't speak out doesn't change the fact that silence implies concent.

You're contradicting yourself so badly. The don't speak out because they are going to be killed, not because they think its a good thing. What you've just said could be a dictionary defenition of contradiction.

[palerider]

You're contradicting yourself so badly. The don't speak out because they are going to be killed, not because they think its a good thing. What you've just said could be a dictionary defenition of contradiction.

Now you are just mewling. We have established that if a muslim speaks out against jihad, then they are, by definition, and by the tenets of their own religion, a bad muslim, and the qur'an calls for them to be killed.

I am only contradicting myself if I am starting from a position of believing that "good muslims" are those who want peace. According to the qur'an, that is not the definition of a good muslim. Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with people who worship anyone other than allah are by definition, bad muslims. They may make good neighbors, and they may be good people, but they are, by definition, bad muslims.

Long standing court precedent in courts across the world has established that silence implies concent. If you remain silent on a thing, you, by default, approve, whether speaking out against it puts you in danger or not. By remaining silent, they are, in effect, saying that they would rather see jihad continue than identify themselves as bad muslims and be killed. It is a choice and they have made it. Silence implies concent.

[r0beph]

Now you are just mewling. We have established that if a muslim speaks out against jihad, then they are, by definition, and by the tenets of their own religion, a bad muslim, and the qur'an calls for them to be killed.

I am only contradicting myself if I am starting from a position of believing that "good muslims" are those who want peace. According to the qur'an, that is not the definition of a good muslim. Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with people who worship anyone other than allah are by definition, bad muslims. They may make good neighbors, and they may be good people, but they are, by definition, bad muslims.

Long standing court precedent in courts across the world has established that silence implies concent. If you remain silent on a thing, you, by default, approve, whether speaking out against it puts you in danger or not. By remaining silent, they are, in effect, saying that they would rather see jihad continue than identify themselves as bad muslims and be killed. It is a choice and they have made it. Silence implies concent.

When I worked for Sun, I worked with several Muslim engineers. All of them highly educated, all of them very distraught over the activities of islamic extremism. I'd have to do some research to show you as it was explained to me (A great portion of the bible is told from a chronological standpoint of a point in muslim history. This large section encompasses many of what people consider to be the tenants of islam. Where the fact is much of what Mohhamad said that people should do was directed at his followers of that time, and NOT to people now, since it was related directly to the situation contextualized in the book)


The problem with your point is that you're missing a lot of the reality. To use the ever popular christian vs. muslim argumentative for a moment, there is plenty in the bible that states you should be killed for 100 different offenses. Let me quote;



1) Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) ** how does this differ from your argument on disagreement with Ji'had in your sense of the argument.

2) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2b) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) ** Every single teenager in the US should die, right?

3)If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) ** not even going to go there.

4) "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) ** A favorite of the westboro baptist nutjobs I'm sure and due to (1) you have to agree with them.

5) A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) ** Sucks for priests daughters :(

6) Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) ** Let me point out the obvious retort here to your statement Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with people who worship anyone other than allah are by definition, bad muslims.

7) But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) ** Sounds like something you hear all the time from the extremist countries, but wait, this is the bible NOT the qu'ran...what gives?

8) Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) ** sure hope your dad was a good guy =\

I could go on. But then I'd just be rehashing the same ideas from these previous quotes. There is a lot of issue with religion, the literalization of the words, and so on.


The biggest issue is not the religions, christianity or islam, both have the same ability to become misinterpreted (or maybe correctly interpreted if the original authors felt that killing people so blatantly was the right thing. but who knows?) Both are very near equal in their call to culling the ranks of those who do not believe or who disapprove or approve of certain behaviors. So how does one insure that the murderous followers of any said religion do not become the majority?

[9sublime]

When I worked for Sun, I worked with several Muslim engineers. All of them highly educated, all of them very distraught over the activities of islamic extremism. I'd have to do some research to show you as it was explained to me (A great portion of the bible is told from a chronological standpoint of a point in muslim history. This large section encompasses many of what people consider to be the tenants of islam. Where the fact is much of what Mohhamad said that people should do was directed at his followers of that time, and NOT to people now, since it was related directly to the situation contextualized in the book)


The problem with your point is that you're missing a lot of the reality. To use the ever popular christian vs. muslim argumentative for a moment, there is plenty in the bible that states you should be killed for 100 different offenses. Let me quote;



1) Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) ** how does this differ from your argument on disagreement with Ji'had in your sense of the argument.

2) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2b) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) ** Every single teenager in the US should die, right?

3)If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) ** not even going to go there.

4) "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) ** A favorite of the westboro baptist nutjobs I'm sure and due to (1) you have to agree with them.

5) A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) ** Sucks for priests daughters :(

6) Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) ** Let me point out the obvious retort here to your statement Muslims who want to peacefully coexist with people who worship anyone other than allah are by definition, bad muslims.

7) But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) ** Sounds like something you hear all the time from the extremist countries, but wait, this is the bible NOT the qu'ran...what gives?

8) Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) ** sure hope your dad was a good guy =\

I could go on. But then I'd just be rehashing the same ideas from these previous quotes. There is a lot of issue with religion, the literalization of the words, and so on.


The biggest issue is not the religions, christianity or islam, both have the same ability to become misinterpreted (or maybe correctly interpreted if the original authors felt that killing people so blatantly was the right thing. but who knows?) Both are very near equal in their call to culling the ranks of those who do not believe or who disapprove or approve of certain behaviors. So how does one insure that the murderous followers of any said religion do not become the majority?

Great post r0beph. Palrider, you DID contradict yourself, and you know as well as I do that in todays world a good Muslim is actually one who doesn't follow extremism, just like todays good Christian doesn't kill people for losing their virginity before marriage.

I've already said you need to understand that you don't take all the bible literally, and neither does the average Muslim. Until you accept this, your opinion on modern Islam is fundamentally flawed.

[Rokerijdude11]

Pale Rider is what is known as an Uncredible individual

He is a LIAR

anything he says cannot be believed he has Lied and will continue to do so

[palerider]

[QUOTE=r0beph;5830]
The problem with your point is that you're missing a lot of the reality. To use the ever popular christian vs. muslim argumentative for a moment, there is plenty in the bible that states you should be killed for 100 different offenses. Let me quote;


Of course you neglect to mention that the new testament superceeded all of those old testament punishmenets.

[palerider]

Pale Rider is what is known as an Uncredible individual

He is a LIAR

anything he says cannot be believed he has Lied and will continue to do so

Sniping from the bushes now? My how you have fallen. Perhaps you would like to bring some of the lies that you claim I have told here. Or maybe you are just talking out of your ass.

[vyo476]

Sniping from the bushes now? My how you have fallen. Perhaps you would like to bring some of the lies that you claim I have told here. Or maybe you are just talking out of your ass.

I wonder if perhaps you two could limit your personal war to threads that don't have a serious discussion going. Roker, that means you - snipe elsewhere.

[palerider]

I wonder if perhaps you two could limit your personal war to threads that don't have a serious discussion going. Roker, that means you - snipe elsewhere.

I could only wish he would be so mature.