The forced starvation diet of Palestinians

[Grounded]

Source: Norwegian People's Aid (NPA)
Date: 23 Apr 2007

The forced starvation diet of Palestinians




"Amidst extreme poverty, daily survival allows no luxuries." Mohammed Omer Al Moghayer, Projects Officer in NPA, comments on the situation in Gaza.

"What are we going to cook today?" 15 year old Sabreen Shakfah asks her mother. Wide-eyed and unblinking, her mother's reply is not unusual, echoing the voices of parents around Gaza: "There is nothing to cook today; we have run out of food." Moments later, Sabreen's father comes inside from his position seated on the doorstep but doesn't respond to his daughter's words. Suffering from psychological illness and no longer able to work, Mr. Shakfah nonetheless of course still cares for his family and wants them to live in dignity.

The nine-member family is no longer able to function, neither able to buy food nor meet the many other daily living expenses.

The Shakfah family of Rafah refugee camp lost their house during one of the Israeli military operations in the camp in March 2003 and are but one family among a third of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip who are food insecure, according to a report by the United Nations World Food Program (WFP) and the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).

A March 2007 Food Security and Vulnerability Assessment study published by WFP and FAO found that about 34% of Palestinians cannot afford a balanced meal and another 12% are at risk of reaching this extremely impoverished state. The number suffering from food insecurity has dramatically risen to 51% of the population in the Gaza Strip, the area most affected.

WFP country director for the occupied Palestinian territories, Arnold Vercken, reported that: "The poorest families are now living a meager existence totally reliant on assistance, with no electricity or heating and eating food prepared with water from bad sources."

These days, in order to endure the crippling imposed sanctions which have led to the current appallingly dire state of affairs, Palestinians have resorted to several ways of coping: reducing food portions; eating just one meal a day – very common among many Palestinians; buying food of a lesser quality; and cutting back on nourishing vegetables, fruit, meat and fish. Other means of surviving such alarming circumstances include taking loans from family, friends and local shops and selling assets like land, jewellery and other personal belongings.

In Jabalya refugee camp, 15 year old Rana Q. collects wood, plastic and other things to light a fire. When I ask her family why she is lighting this fire, watching as she throws a pair of old shoes in to feed the fire, Rana's mother answers: "We do this to heat the water, so we can have showers from time to time. "The answer troubles me, and I see the girl approach with a water container, putting it on piece of iron to heat the water for her to bathe. (http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/LRON-72JG22?OpenDocument)

[palerider]

The "palestinians" choose to be where they are. There are plenty of arabs in israel that have jobs, have homes and families and even hold elected office. The "palestinians" have segregated themselves rather than live among jews.

[ArmChair General]

The "palestinians" choose to be where they are. There are plenty of arabs in israel that have jobs, have homes and families and even hold elected office. The "palestinians" have segregated themselves rather than live among jews.

yah its their fault the Israelis invaded, and now occupy their land, assassinate their leaders, terrorize their people, bulldoze their homes.

Stupid pals, they should just leave their homes and let the Israelis have it.


Because thats what you would do right paleRider? IF another nation invaded your hometown you'd be nice and happy with it and even help em out, right?

[Dave]

yah its their fault the Israelis invaded, and now occupy their land, assassinate their leaders, terrorize their people, bulldoze their homes.

Stupid pals, they should just leave their homes and let the Israelis have it.


Because thats what you would do right paleRider? IF another nation invaded your hometown you'd be nice and happy with it and even help em out, right?

Yeah, those dirty Jews invaded in 1948, right after the holocaust didn't happen.

Get real. If you get your ass kicked in a war the way the Arabs did in 48, the least you can expect is to lose part of your land. They are lucky the international community stepped in when it did to put the reins back in Israel.

If the plight of "Palestinian refugees" is of such concern to the Arab world, why has no Arab nation stepped up to help them? Charity is one of the pillars of Islam, so why don't any Arab nations show charity in any form to their fellow Arabs? Because the more the Palestinians suffer, the worse the Jews look to everybody else.

[ArmChair General]

Yeah, those dirty Jews invaded in 1948, right after the holocaust didn't happen.

Get real. If you get your ass kicked in a war the way the Arabs did in 48, the least you can expect is to lose part of your land. They are lucky the international community stepped in when it did to put the reins back in Israel.

If the plight of "Palestinian refugees" is of such concern to the Arab world, why has no Arab nation stepped up to help them? Charity is one of the pillars of Islam, so why don't any Arab nations show charity in any form to their fellow Arabs? Because the more the Palestinians suffer, the worse the Jews look to everybody else.

You really need to get educated on the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

im really not in the mood to educate you right now. maybe later.

[9sublime]

Wait a second Armchair general. Are you against Israel? Even though you want America to "whip ass"?

[Dave]

You really need to get educated on the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

im really not in the mood to educate you right now. maybe later.

Yeah, if someone disagrees with your opinions they must be "uneducated." This may come as a shock to you, but I've done quite a bit of research on the 48 and 73 wars, as well as the history of Israel and so called "Palestine." The Palestinians already have their state. It's called Jordan.

[palerider]

yah its their fault the Israelis invaded, and now occupy their land, assassinate their leaders, terrorize their people, bulldoze their homes.

Invaded? Some historical research on your part is in order. If anyone ivaded, it would be the Jordanians which hold over 70% of the palestinian mandate and don't allow "palestinians" into it.

Because thats what you would do right paleRider? IF another nation invaded your hometown you'd be nice and happy with it and even help em out, right?

And there never were any palestinians, or palestine, or palestinian language. There were no real permanant residents of that area at all unless you call nomadic bedoin residents. You really do need to do a bit of honest research rather than parrot the talking points of the anti semetic left.

[ArmChair General]

Wow. Lets give some credit to the effectiveness of the Israeli propaganda machine, which you guys would make great spokesmen for.

Actually, Palestinians are a gentle people. If you get to know some and hear their side of the story, you will feel sympathy for them, too, unless you have a flint heart. The Palestinians were run over by history. I know that various ethnic groups in the United States fiercely contend for the title of victim, but the Palestinians had it imposed on them.

There was nothing they could do when the Ottoman Empire absorbed their land. There was nothing they could do when the British Empire took their land away from the Ottoman Turks at the end of World War I. There was nothing they could do when the British Empire created the Palestine Mandate. There was nothing they could do when the British Cabinet, for reasons historians still argue about, decided Palestine would make a nice national home for European Jews when and if the British Empire ever decided to give up its occupation of Palestine.

That it did in 1947, after considerable encouragement by Jewish terrorist organizations, the Irgun, led by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir. Yes, Jews used terrorist tactics against the British occupation, and now Palestinians are using terrorist tactics against the Israeli occupation.

In 1948, about 700,000 Palestinians were made refugees and then told they could not return to their homes. Their homes, land and businesses were eventually confiscated. In 1967, Israel attacked and stole the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, the Golan Heights from Syria and the Gaza Strip from Egypt. These are now the "occupied territories." The state of Israel has no legal claim to even 1 square inch of any of this territory, but with the backing of the United States it has been able to tell the rest of the world to **** off.

Palestinians appreciate the irony of the fact that the United States went to war allegedly to get Albanian refugees back into Kosovo and went to war twice against Iraq allegedly to enforce United Nations resolutions. Of course, we've done nothing for the return of the Palestinian refugees, and we've ignored the fact that Israel is in open defiance of more than 80 United Nations resolutions. We've also ignored the fact that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that really does have weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear bombs.

All Americans should feel a great deal of sympathy for the younger generations of both Palestinians and Israeli Jews. These young people were born into a conflict started by people long dead or now senile. The issue is simple: It's land. Both sides are dying over land.

You don't need to be Palestinian or hate Jews to feel sympathy for these people. All you need is to know the facts. Learn the truth, and you will feel sympathy for Palestinians also, but not very proud of American Middle East policy, which is a continuing failure driven by greed and cowardice on the part of American politicians. The hypocrisy of it has poisoned our image around the world.

[ArmChair General]

Wait a second Armchair general. Are you against Israel? Even though you want America to "whip ass"?

Last I checked Israel wasn't America.

[palerider]

Wow. Lets give some credit to the effectiveness of the Israeli propaganda machine, which you guys would make great spokesmen for.

Well, someone is a victim of a propaganda machine, but if you are wondering who, look in a mirror. Grab yourself a history book and see just who attacked whom in 1967.

[ArmChair General]

Well, someone is a victim of a propaganda machine, but if you are wondering who, look in a mirror. Grab yourself a history book and see just who attacked whom in 1967.

First of all, get your facts straight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

In June 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce



any more tidbits of history you'd like to revise to suit your ignorance?

[TheWaffle]

First of all, get your facts straight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

In June 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce

any more tidbits of history you'd like to revise to suit your ignorance?

I hope you're aware that your own cited article points the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran, their expulsion of the UN peace keeping force on their border and initiated a military mobilization. It was no secret how the Egyptians felt towards the Israelis.

They already saw what happens when their neighbors start to mobilize in '48 in the war of independence.

[Dave]

First of all, get your facts straight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

In June 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce



any more tidbits of history you'd like to revise to suit your ignorance?


I'd hardly call it "pre-emptive" after Egypt had massed 100,000 troops in the Sinai in preperation for their own invasion of Israel. Egypt started the war, Israel just took the first shot.

[ArmChair General]

I'd hardly call it "pre-emptive" after Egypt had massed 100,000 troops in the Sinai in preperation for their own invasion of Israel. Egypt started the war, Israel just took the first shot.

Just admit you were wrong and move on. Be a man.

[palerider]

Just admit you were wrong and move on. Be a man.


In april 1967 syria shelled villages in Israel from the golan heights and Israel shot down 6 syrian migs (donated by russia) in Israel's air space. Israel warned against further attacks and syria publicly appealed to egypt for backup. In may, egypt moved 100,000 troops and 1,000 tanks into the sianai penninsula on Israel's southern border. On may 17, egypt called for the removal of all UN personnel from the area that were acting as observers. By may 20 all the observers were gone. On may 22 egypt announced a naval blockade cutting off shipping to Israel.

Clearly with the shelling from the golan heights in april and the attacks by migs in Israel's air space, it was the arabs that drew first blood. Israel's decision to move on the agressors rather than wait for them to attack on 3 fronts was no more than good tactics. But anyone who actually knows the history, knows that Israel did not fire the first shot. In fact, they were attempting negotiations in the UN until the 11th hour while arab radio stations were broadcasting arab generals telling the people that they were going to eliminate israel.

So be a man and admit you were wrong. I wouldn't have suggested that you find out who attacked who if I didn't already know.

[palerider]

I'd hardly call it "pre-emptive" after Egypt had massed 100,000 troops in the Sinai in preperation for their own invasion of Israel. Egypt started the war, Israel just took the first shot.

Actually syria started the war. They had fired on Israel from the golan heights the preceeding month and sent 6 russian migs into Israel's air space to bomb the capital. All 6 were shot down and at that time, syria publicly requested back up from egypt. It was then that egypt brought in the 100,000 troops and 1000 tanks and assisted with the blockade.

Syria drew first blood.

[Coyote]

Actually syria started the war. They had fired on Israel from the golan heights the preceeding month and sent 6 russian migs into Israel's air space to bomb the capital. All 6 were shot down and at that time, syria publicly requested back up from egypt. It was then that egypt brought in the 100,000 troops and 1000 tanks and assisted with the blockade.

Syria drew first blood.

Yes and no. Israel provoked them hoping for an armed conflict in order to gain more land. The Syrians fell for it. Isreal got the land.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6277/edition_id/117/format/html/displaystory.html

[Coyote]

Well, someone is a victim of a propaganda machine, but if you are wondering who, look in a mirror. Grab yourself a history book and see just who attacked whom in 1967.

It's also important to remember history is written by the victors.

[Dave]

It's also important to remember history is written by the victors.

Actually, history is written by different people from different viewpoints. Egypt now has textbooks saying that American volunteers and pilots were doing the fighting for Israel in the war. Their propagandists refuse to accept that a bunch of Jews kicked them all across their own desert.

Keep in mind that Syria and Egypt had a mutual defense pact. Once war broke out between Syria and Israel, coupled with the fact that Egypt had moved 100,000 troops across the Sinai Desert, it doesn't take an expert historian to see what was about to happen.

[Coyote]

Actually, history is written by different people from different viewpoints. Egypt now has textbooks saying that American volunteers and pilots were doing the fighting for Israel in the war. Their propagandists refuse to accept that a bunch of Jews kicked them all across their own desert.

Keep in mind that Syria and Egypt had a mutual defense pact. Once war broke out between Syria and Israel, coupled with the fact that Egypt had moved 100,000 troops across the Sinai Desert, it doesn't take an expert historian to see what was about to happen.

Doesn't changed the fact that Israel deliberately provoked the war in order to gain land. There are no innocents here - neither the Arabs nor the Israeli's, but the Israeli plaint of "poor little old me" is wearing thin.

[palerider]

It's also important to remember history is written by the victors.


I have never read a history book printed in Israel. In this case, history was written by the press. Back then they could, for the most part, be counted on to simply report what happened.

[palerider]

Doesn't changed the fact that Israel deliberately provoked the war in order to gain land. There are no innocents here - neither the Arabs nor the Israeli's, but the Israeli plaint of "poor little old me" is wearing thin.

Provoked them how? By being jews?

[Coyote]

Provoked them how? By being jews?


No.
.
.
.

[Sock Puppet]

Isreal has every right to defend its homeland from these Arab and Palestinian infidels...

[ArmChair General]

Isreal has every right to defend its homeland from these Arab and Palestinian infidels...

haha....sarcasm noted.

[Dave]

Doesn't changed the fact that Israel deliberately provoked the war in order to gain land. There are no innocents here - neither the Arabs nor the Israeli's, but the Israeli plaint of "poor little old me" is wearing thin.

Actually, the Soviets began making false claims to the Syrians that the Israelis were massing troops on their side of the Sea of Galilee in preperation for an invasion of Syria to take the Golan Heights. Syria responded to a trumped up threat by moving their forces up to their own side of the Sea of Galilee and then asked Egypt to make its own troop movements. When you start to move large amounts of troops up to the border of a country youve been having small skirmishes with for the past couple of years, you can't really blame Israel for being paranoid.

[ArmChair General]

Actually, the Soviets began making false claims to the Syrians that the Israelis were massing troops on their side of the Sea of Galilee in preperation for an invasion of Syria to take the Golan Heights. Syria responded to a trumped up threat by moving their forces up to their own side of the Sea of Galilee and then asked Egypt to make its own troop movements. When you start to move large amounts of troops up to the border of a country youve been having small skirmishes with for the past couple of years, you can't really blame Israel for being paranoid.

And in the end, the Palestinians suffer. Im serious when I say I don't understand everyones reluctance to at least show some sort of compassion to the Pals.

Its not their fault all these arab and israeli assholes were too busy worrying about god and looking for a fight.

[Dave]

And in the end, the Palestinians suffer. Im serious when I say I don't understand everyones reluctance to at least show some sort of compassion to the Pals.

Its not their fault all these arab and israeli assholes were too busy worrying about god and looking for a fight.

Because before 1967, there were no people calling themselves Palestinians. Palestinians are the people that were displaced by Arab armies attacking Israel. After the war Arab nations shut their doors to refugees, and said "You are Israel's problem now." To quote Walid Shoebat-
“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag. When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out.”

[ArmChair General]

Because before 1967, there were no people calling themselves Palestinians. Palestinians are the people that were displaced by Arab armies attacking Israel. After the war Arab nations shut their doors to refugees, and said "You are Israel's problem now." To quote Walid Shoebat-
“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag. When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out.”

ok thats just stupid. Who cares what they called themselves. Not that your right that they never called themselves that.

But who friggin cares.

[vyo476]

Because before 1967, there were no people calling themselves Palestinians. Palestinians are the people that were displaced by Arab armies attacking Israel. After the war Arab nations shut their doors to refugees, and said "You are Israel's problem now." To quote Walid Shoebat-
“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag. When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out.”

You're not quite right. "Palestine" existed as a British mandate from 1920 until 1948. Prior to that the region had literally hundreds of names - "Palestine" was an attempt to give it a lasting name and identity - and you can see how well that turned out.

[vyo476]

ok thats just stupid. Who cares what they called themselves. Not that your right that they never called themselves that.

But who friggin cares.

That really is the heart of it. They call themselves "Palestinians" because the vision of Palestine was their first shot at self-governing. It was there first shot at being able to set up a government the way they wanted it set up. It's about an idea - not lines on a map, which have never mattered much in the Middle East anyway because they change so damn often.

[9sublime]

And in the end, the Palestinians suffer. Im serious when I say I don't understand everyones reluctance to at least show some sort of compassion to the Pals.

Its not their fault all these arab and israeli assholes were too busy worrying about god and looking for a fight.

But at the same time theres a big rant on this forum about how you hate all Muslims, mainly it seems to be down to this 'Thursday ****fest' fantasy and their personal hygeine in poor countries.

[Dave]

That really is the heart of it. They call themselves "Palestinians" because the vision of Palestine was their first shot at self-governing. It was there first shot at being able to set up a government the way they wanted it set up. It's about an idea - not lines on a map, which have never mattered much in the Middle East anyway because they change so damn often.

They were given the chance at self-governance in Jordan. The Arabs were given their land, and the Jews were given seperate land, and it would have been find if Arabs could accept the fact that of a Jewish state in Muslim holy land. I was really just referring to the people that call themselves Palestinians today. As of June 4 1967, there were no Palestinians. 70% of the Arab inhabitants of the area left when Israel was created because of the promise made by Arab nations to remove the Jews from their land. The rest were simply living peacefully in Israel and enjoyed more rights there than were given in the Arab world. The point I'm trying to make is that every "Palestinian" at one point was something else. Even Yasser Arafat was born as an Egyptian. What gives them the right to wake up one morning and decide that they are now Palestinians, and as Palestinians, all of a sudden have the right to claim this land as their own?

[palerider]

And in the end, the Palestinians suffer. Im serious when I say I don't understand everyones reluctance to at least show some sort of compassion to the Pals.

Its not their fault all these arab and israeli assholes were too busy worrying about god and looking for a fight.

The palestinians have a homeland and it consists of over 70% of the palestinian mandate which today is known as Israel and Jordan. Their "homeland" is jordan but they are denied access and yet, they do not complain.

[9sublime]

I'm sure they do complain, especially those who actually lost land, but Israel gets more coverage, and therefore more hatred is stirred up.

[Coyote]

Israel should go back to their 1967 borders, dismantle all the illegal settlements and return confiscated lands. It's that simple. They have no right to it. They provoked the 1967 war in order to take the Golan Heights - some of the best farm land in the area. I'm not saying the arabs are blameless either - both they and Israel have used and abused the Palestinians. There is a lot of blame to lay around but it's about time Israel starts excepting some responsibility here and it's about time that we quit calling anyone who critisizes Israel's actions a "jew hater" or anti-semitic.

[Coyote]

The palestinians have a homeland and it consists of over 70% of the palestinian mandate which today is known as Israel and Jordan. Their "homeland" is jordan but they are denied access and yet, they do not complain.

The Palestinians have a swiss cheese homland that is discontinuous and almost impossible to conduct trade, business or farming in without Israe'ls permissions.

Go back to the old borders.

[vyo476]

Israel should go back to their 1967 borders, dismantle all the illegal settlements and return confiscated lands. It's that simple. They have no right to it. They provoked the 1967 war in order to take the Golan Heights - some of the best farm land in the area. I'm not saying the arabs are blameless either - both they and Israel have used and abused the Palestinians. There is a lot of blame to lay around but it's about time Israel starts excepting some responsibility here and it's about time that we quit calling anyone who critisizes Israel's actions a "jew hater" or anti-semitic.

That wouldn't be enough for the Muslim states. They won't stop until there is no Israel left. We can argue till the cows come home about why all this started and who is to blame for it, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no good way to solve this problem. The Palestinians want Palestine and the Israelis want Israel and they both want them in the same place; you can't divide the land between them because both sides have an "all-or-nothing" attitude. The Israelis are willing to let Palestinians live in Israel - by Israeli rules. The Palestinians were (not sure anymore) willing to let Israelis live in Palestine - under Palestinian rules. Neither wants to accept the other side's jurisdiction because of cultural and religious differences.

Basically we've got two pissed off bulls that have locked horns and are rolling around trying in vain to break each other's necks. All they're managing to do is crush all the little guys who are around them (ie civilians).

This is one issue that I think we just need to duck out of and leave be. There's no clear way to tell who "rightly deserves" the land as there have been Jews and Muslims (and, yes, those pesky Christians too) there for hundreds of years. The Jews certainly deserved to have their own state in the wake of World War II; the Muslims of the Palestinian mandate (who lived in the district of Palestine) also deserved their own state, promised to them by the British during World War I.

No matter how you swing it both sides have equally astute points. Do I sympathize with the Palestinians? Yes. They've been handed the short end of a stick in their own country. Is that stick as short as the one that was handed the Jews during the Holocaust? Not by a long shot. After the worst persecution at the head of a long line of prosecutions of their people the Jews deserved to get a little back and they got Israel. Do I sympathize with the Israelis? Yes. They're just trying to keep their people from winding up in the same position they were in 1934 when Hitler took over in Germany.

No one wins here.

[Coyote]

That wouldn't be enough for the Muslim states. They won't stop until there is no Israel left.

I disagree. I think most of them have come to the realization that Israel is here to stay and would like some sort of fair peace. Syria is willing to negotiate a peace deal if it gets the Gollan Heights back.


We can argue till the cows come home about why all this started and who is to blame for it, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no good way to solve this problem. The Palestinians want Palestine and the Israelis want Israel and they both want them in the same place; you can't divide the land between them because both sides have an "all-or-nothing" attitude.

I agree - both sides have to make major concessions. Israel must return to it's 1967 borders and dismantle settlements- those are the legal borders of it's mandate. There can't be any "right of return" for the Palestinians. They'll just have realize that. It would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. Jeruselum will have to be a multi-national city. It can be done if the major powers - pariticularly the U.S. stops being so one sided and is seen to be hardline with both the Palestinians and Isreal. That has yet to happen. As it is right now the Arabs see Israel breaking UN resolutions right and left with no repercussions, they see Isreal continuing to build settlements on confiscated territory, and they see a nuclear armed (we just don't say it out loud) Isreal suffering no consequences while next door Iran is suffering sanctions and international condemnation for going in the same direction. Are the Arabs blameless? Of course not. They've been using the Palestinians shamefully for their own political purposes.


The Israelis are willing to let Palestinians live in Israel - by Israeli rules. The Palestinians were (not sure anymore) willing to let Israelis live in Palestine - under Palestinian rules. Neither wants to accept the other side's jurisdiction because of cultural and religious differences.


Palestinians are second class citizens in Israel. They regularly get stopped at roadblocks - even in emergency situations, trying to get to a hospital. Their lands are subject to confiscation/eminent domain - with little recourse to justice and poor compensation. If you're a Palestinian just try to get any sort of building permit or home improvement permit in Jeruselum - it won't be given. If you're an Israeli Jew - no problem. Israel regularly cross the border into Palestine to kidnap Palestinians - but what happens if the Palestinians react back? Those are some of the Israeli rules.



Basically we've got two pissed off bulls that have locked horns and are rolling around trying in vain to break each other's necks. All they're managing to do is crush all the little guys who are around them (ie civilians).


Ya, I agree.


This is one issue that I think we just need to duck out of and leave be. There's no clear way to tell who "rightly deserves" the land as there have been Jews and Muslims (and, yes, those pesky Christians too) there for hundreds of years. The Jews certainly deserved to have their own state in the wake of World War II; the Muslims of the Palestinian mandate (who lived in the district of Palestine) also deserved their own state, promised to them by the British during World War I.

No matter how you swing it both sides have equally astute points. Do I sympathize with the Palestinians? Yes. They've been handed the short end of a stick in their own country. Is that stick as short as the one that was handed the Jews during the Holocaust? Not by a long shot. After the worst persecution at the head of a long line of prosecutions of their people the Jews deserved to get a little back and they got Israel. Do I sympathize with the Israelis? Yes. They're just trying to keep their people from winding up in the same position they were in 1934 when Hitler took over in Germany.

No one wins here.

While I agree with much of what you say, there are a few realities here. It's time Israel quit using the holocast as it's excuse for excess. Israel is no David matched against the Arab juggernaut. Israel has one of the most modern and effective armies in the world - perhaps the best. Israel is not a third world country. Israel recieves a massive amount of financial aid from the US - in fact, it's the biggest single recipient. Compared to Israel - what are most of the Arab countries? A bunch of tinpot dictators.

[vyo476]

I think that the concessions that both sides would require of the other would be too great to be accepted. I've struggled to see a way out of this mess that would be advantageous for everyone but I'm pretty sure that solution doesn't exist.

[ArmChair General]

You know its funny, because everyone cares about the Jewish holocaust, but nobody ever makes a big deal out of all the other genocides and holocausts that have occured. Tell me exactly, why I should care more about the Jews than the American Indians for instance?

The cold hard fact here, is that the Holocaust is a One-Shot Exception; and Genocide DOES Pay. Everybody loves to talk about this particular case of genocide because it failed, or so we're told. The Germans paid a terrible price for what they did to the Jews. Nope; the Germans paid a terrible price for invading Russia. If they'd stuck to holding their half of Eurasia, Stalin would have continued his love affair with Hitler, the only human being he ever liked, and the European Jews would have been a shared buffet, divvied up between concentration camps flying the swastika or the red star.

What made the Holocaust totally unlike most genocides is that we remember the victims; and the only reason we do is, once again, the USA. The European Jews were totally vulnerable and despised over there, (thanks to the Christian church), but their kin in America were doing fine and cared enough to remember their relatives who died. Compare this to almost any other example of genocide, and there are literally thousands of examples, and you'll see the difference: most of the time (I mean DUH!) the tribe that gets genocided is the most despised, weak and helpless tribe in the region. That means nobody remembers them at all, or if they do they consider the genocide an example of Progress, or just one of those things. If you doubt that, then tell me quick what tribe lived 400 years ago in the city where you're reading this now, that's how most genocides work. The tribe vanishes forever. That's why they call it genocide, for God's sake! And once it's gone--Duh!--nobody remembers it or cares.

The reason people love to talk about Nazis killing Jews is that, thanks to the Jews in America, there were people who insisted on remembering the victims. If people thought about the genocide of, say, the tribe that lived where you lived, they'd get bummed. They'd realize the world is a slaughterhouse and there are no moral lessons. That's why they'd rather talk about Auschwitz than...your hometown.

[9sublime]

Too true. While I think the holocaust was one of the worst events in human history, theres a genocide in Africa now that most people couldn't give a **** about.

[vyo476]

Too true. While I think the holocaust was one of the worst events in human history, theres a genocide in Africa now that most people couldn't give a **** about.

And there was the Armenian Genocide that the Turks are still saying didn't happen.

Still, Darfur is a more pressing issue.

[9sublime]

Rwanda.

[vyo476]

Rwanda.

Yes, true. The Rwandan genocide is right in there with the worst of them from throughout history.

[9sublime]

And its happening right now. But it wont get any coverage now, or in the future, unless someone drags America in through violence against them.

[vyo476]

And its happening right now. But it wont get any coverage now, or in the future, unless someone drags America in through violence against them.

I thought the Rwandan genocide was over and the one in Africa making the headlines these days was the one in Darfur, Sudan.

[Dave]

Too true. While I think the holocaust was one of the worst events in human history, theres a genocide in Africa now that most people couldn't give a **** about.

Darfur is pretty much the biggest humanitarian aid mission the world has ever seen. When the west stays back and lets these things take their course, we get blamed for not intervening. When we do intervene, we get Somalia circa 1993. After the backlash America got from that intervention why would we ever want to stick our necks out to stop an African genocide again?

[9sublime]

Because having your government slated is hardly as bad as genocide now is it.