Bomb Iran, or make them sign a treaty

[DemocratLupis]

which one???

[9sublime]

Neither one is productive.

Cut off all trading with them and make other heavy sanctions until they have to stop the enrichment.

But first of all get real proof that there is an actual imminent danger, not the same sort of proof as weapons of mass destruction.

[GringoStar]

I say bomb Israel, they HAVE Nukes, they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and have committed more human rights violations than any country we "fight".

[zerorelations]

I say bomb Israel, they HAVE Nukes, they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and have committed more human rights violations than any country we "fight".

But if we start to bomb israel, they'll use their nukes...

:(

[vyo476]

I say bomb Israel, they HAVE Nukes, they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and have committed more human rights violations than any country we "fight".

Israel is what we generally refer to as an "ally." You don't bomb allies.

They are constantly fighting with their neighbors...because their neighbors keep attacking them.

Which human rights violations would these be?

[ArmChair General]

Israel is what we generally refer to as an "ally." You don't bomb allies.

They are constantly fighting with their neighbors...because their neighbors keep attacking them.

Which human rights violations would these be?

Why is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian Land?

[vyo476]

Why is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian Land?

I'd have figured you for a fan of Israel. They do generally "kick ass" in the way that you idolize.

[ArmChair General]

I'd have figured you for a fan of Israel. They do generally "kick ass" in the way that you idolize.

Hardly, the IDF is propably most overrated military force on earth. The Israelis have been coasting on their reputation for a long time, but way back in Gulf War I it was clear they made their record like a Don King fighter, padding their Win column against a bunch of bums. When I saw those pitiful Arab "soldiers" crawling toward US camera crews on their hands and knees to surrender, the first thing that went through my head was, "Whoa, so that's the kind of opponent the Israelis have been showboating against? Well Hell, my high school marching band could've beaten those Arab chicken****s!"

I'm not alone in that conclusion either. One of the top US commanders in GW I called the IDF "a bunch of arrogant pricks who wouldn't last ten minutes on a European battlefield." Well, that bit about a "European battlefield" is another sad case of our NATO obsession, but the point is, the IDF doesn't deserve its rep. It did once, back in 1948 and during Suez, when it was manned by double-tough survivors of the European Jews who were determined to show up the book-nerd stereotype by kicking ass from Haifa to Damascus. Those dudes were truly tough.

But as long as the IDF was beating up on Hamas down in Gaza, it could hide its weakness most of the time. Not all of the time, pretty sloppy last year, when they let Hamas commandos tunnel right into that base, blast a tank and kidnap that dude named Shalit right while he was thinking up his next capsule review. Still, except for the occasional slip, the IDF was safe in its F-16s and Merkavas, facing Pals with nothing but rifles and old RPGs. It's easy to look tough rolling through refugee camps in the world's most heavily armored tank.

But as you may recall, those tanks got a real different reception when they chased Hezbollah's raiding party back into Lebanon after the Hezzies killed three IDF soldiers and kidnapped another two. The IDF mid-ranking commanders had to act fast because the Gaza command was taking heat for not pursuing Shalit's kidnappers fast enough. So they shouted, "Charge!" and the first Merkava steamed over the border.

Guess how far it got. Ten meters. Ten goddamn meters. Then KABOOM! A Hezbollah mine or shaped charge turned it into a very expensive oven, with four crew killed. Another IDF soldier died trying to rescue them. So within a few minutes the IDF had lost eight men. As far as I know, Hezbollah's losses were zero.

It was a good plot twist: one minute the IDF is stomping around Gaza blasting amateurs, when something taps it on the shoulder, and there's Hezbollah, looking like Godzilla in a headscarf. Pretty funny moment, something almost Abbot & Costello about it. I still laugh to myself thinking about it.

No army enjoys getting invited to a second front just when it was starting to enjoy itself on the first one. Even the Wehrmacht rank and file was bummed when they heard they were getting shipped from the beaches of the Mediterranean to Russia. And the IDF was no happier when they realized they had to quit using Gaza as a speed bag to spar with an enemy that could kill eight IDF guys in a few seconds.

Casualties. That's the key here. Every war, every army has a different population base, different demographics, and a different take on casualties. Israel's biggest weakness has always been that it hates to take casualties. You can see that in their famous prisoner exchanges, giving away hundreds of Islamic prisoners to get back one IDF guy, or in one case just the bodies of a couple of dead IDF guys. You can see it in the design of the Merkava, a brilliant design, one that gives infantry the full protection of MBT armor, but also an indication that this army is terrified its guys might get hurt.

Compare that to the Hezbollah attitude to death, which is basically extreme eagerness. Death? Hell yes, can I have seconds? The sooner the better! They have a huge death wish, so naturally their holiest places are tombs. That's why Shi'ites make that pilgrimage to Karbala, to visit the tomb of Husain. Shi'ites commemorate Husain getting himself sliced and diced for ten days every year, slashing themselves with knives and bashing themselves with chains to celebrate that glorious defeat. Ayatollah Khomeini, the biggest Shi'ite hero of the 20th century, used to preach "Every day is the anniversary of the battle, and every place is Karbala." The inspirational message was: wherever you are, go get yourself massacred. What are you doing sitting around breathing? Why ain't you out there getting slaughtered, you lazy godless bum?

And these are the same people we're picking off one by one in Iraq as well, then bragging about body counts. Still wonder why the war's going so badly?

[9sublime]

**** off and fight then you doss cunt, rather than sitting around complaining all the time. Go buy a gun and try and shoot some of these Iraqis you despise so much, and help 'kick ass' for the country you love that is letting yourself down so much. Or go and check yourself in for some mental asylum to wean you off the barbiturates of whatever you must be taking.

[The Founders Intent]

Why is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian Land?

As far as I know there is a treaty in place giving them the right to be there.

[The Founders Intent]

**** off and fight then you doss cunt, rather than sitting around complaining all the time. Go buy a gun and try and shoot some of these Iraqis you despise so much, and help 'kick ass' for the country you love that is letting yourself down so much. Or go and check yourself in for some mental asylum to wean you off the barbiturates of whatever you must be taking.

Nice guy. :rolleyes:

[Castle]

I am more and more of the opinion that we should leave the middle east to it's own destiny - whatever that may be. Getting involved always comes down to this. UN split over solution --- more talks. Years go by and still no solution. US acts and becomes the great satan and a great punching bag for the rest.

I'm moving toward this ultimate solution. Leave the entire powder keg that is the middle east free of ANY US involvement with one stipulation. One warning and one warning only. If a country - say Iran - develops the bomb (and any fool knows they will) and one finds it's way to any of the plethora of islamic terrorist organizations who's only purpose is to destroy western culture......and said nuke mysteriously finds it's way to a US city and detonates. No UN resolutions, no decade long cocktail party world discussion, no harsh verbal condemnation. The only place you find countries that harbor and support these savages is in history books and mushroom clouds from that moment on.....period!

Fair?

-Castle

[vyo476]

I am more and more of the opinion that we should leave the middle east to it's own destiny - whatever that may be. Getting involved always comes down to this. UN split over solution --- more talks. Years go by and still no solution. US acts and becomes the great satan and a great punching bag for the rest.


You're forgetting one rather large thing. Oil.

[Castle]

You're forgetting one rather large thing. Oil.
True but oil is of little value in a radioactive wasteland.

-Castle

[BigRob]

I am more and more of the opinion that we should leave the middle east to it's own destiny - whatever that may be. Getting involved always comes down to this. UN split over solution --- more talks. Years go by and still no solution. US acts and becomes the great satan and a great punching bag for the rest.

I'm moving toward this ultimate solution. Leave the entire powder keg that is the middle east free of ANY US involvement with one stipulation. One warning and one warning only. If a country - say Iran - develops the bomb (and any fool knows they will) and one finds it's way to any of the plethora of islamic terrorist organizations who's only purpose is to destroy western culture......and said nuke mysteriously finds it's way to a US city and detonates. No UN resolutions, no decade long cocktail party world discussion, no harsh verbal condemnation. The only place you find countries that harbor and support these savages is in history books and mushroom clouds from that moment on.....period!

Fair?

-Castle

Why are we sitting around waiting for them to nuke us before taking any action?

[The Scotsman]

Why bump up a ridiculous thread?

[Bunz]

Hi Big Rob,
As Scotsman points out, this thread has been long gone, if you have ideas about Iran, please just start a new thread and we can debate it there. Its been over a year since this one was active. Give a narrative on your thoughts and I know I will surely respond.

[pocketfullofshells]

how about 3? eat a box of Oreos...it will be just as effective.

1. We can't bomb Iran, I wish people understood that. We don't have the forces, nor can we afford a war with Iran. Yet people keep calling for it, like you can just will it to happen. All the willpower you want will not build more planes to use, and add hundreds of thousands of US troops to our army. Or make it somehow a price we can pay for is smoking something. Also hate to break to to people But no Israel is not going to do it for us, they can't and would suffer even more for it then we would if we did it.

2. Sign it and then they ignore it...what good would do that? It would be nice, but we are already going after Iran for doing things they signed as is.

[Foolosophy]

Should you compel Israel to sign a similar treaty?

Israel is the only state in that region that has nuclear weapons of Mass destruction.

Or is this a racially based treaty restricted to countries such as Iran?

And remember the Iranian nuclear scientists who are working on the Iranian nuclear power program were trained by MIT in the late 1970's

What about Saudi Arabia 0r Jordan?

treaties for them too?

[Jeugenen]

By working closely with the Europeans in cultural exchanges, trading oil for technology; and by totally ignoring the continuous provocations by Israel's Judeo-fascists and the politically desperate Neo-Marxists (Neo-Cons/Neo-Libs) in the American government, she can achieve peace and prosperity. Her role models are contemporary India, and postwar Japan and Germany.

[GaiusJuliusCaesarAugustus]

which one???

Bomb Iran, or make them sign a treatywould you care to rephrase this? there is a choice for us there? if we can make Iran sign a treaty, why don' t we?

[GaiusJuliusCaesarAugustus]

Should you compel Israel to sign a similar treaty?

Israel is the only state in that region that has nuclear weapons of Mass destruction.has israel threatened to destroy her neighbors?

Or is this a racially based treaty restricted to countries such as Iran?
racially based? what would be the races in question?
And remember the Iranian nuclear scientists who are working on the Iranian nuclear power program were trained by MIT in the late 1970'snobody is trained by mit. they train at mit.

What about Saudi Arabia 0r Jordan?

treaties for them too?

[Foolosophy]

has israel threatened to destroy her neighbors?

nobody is trained by mit. they train at mit.

you avoid the point because you cant counter it with a solid argument.

Why did MIT accept money from Iran so that its scientists could study nuclear science at MIT?

and now some of these scientists are working on nuclear prgograms in Iran

[Foolosophy]

has israel threatened to destroy her neighbors?




Find me the direct quotes where this is the case.

I can find you quotes where Israel has threatened to use nuclear strikes against neighbors.

This is OK by you.

Double standards and hypocrisy of the highest order.

Is it any wonder Israel supplied Sth Africa with nukes in the 1980 in SECRET.

What was Israel's policy on Apartheid in Sth Africa? Refresh our memories if you would.

[Sharon den Adel]

which one???

Neithor. Iran does not have to sign anything if it doesn't want to, and bombing them simply because they will not sign a treaty is hardly the answer, eithor.

[Foolosophy]

What if we replace the word "Iran" with the word "Israel"???

GOD FORBID THAT WE SHOULD CHALLENGE GOD's "CHOSEN PEOPLE" to abide by the principle of universality or indeed any sort of universal ethical base.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[bododie]

Who gets to decide what the global "ethical" base gets to be? Non Muslim, non Jewish, non aboriginal bashing people?

[Jeugenen]

By working closely with the Europeans in cultural exchanges, trading oil for technology; and by totally ignoring the continuous provocations by Israel's Judeo-fascists and the politically desperate Neo-Marxists (Neo-Cons/Neo-Libs) in the American government, she can achieve peace and prosperity. Her role models are contemporary India, and postwar Japan and Germany.

[bododie]

Her role models are contemporary India, and postwar Japan and Germany.

Funny, I thought we were their role models.

Germany? how so.

[Here We Go]

Neithor. Iran does not have to sign anything if it doesn't want to, and bombing them simply because they will not sign a treaty is hardly the answer, eithor.

Since ol' George didn't speak to the Iran President when he was invited to the university, I doubt he would trust a signed treaty. I truly believe Bush has some serious mental problems and will be glad when he leaves office. How he was allowed to remain President never ceases to amaze me. :eek:

[bododie]

How he was allowed to remain President never ceases to amaze me.

Me too. It also amazes me that Clinton was allowed to remain president after being impeached.

[pocketfullofshells]

Me too. It also amazes me that Clinton was allowed to remain president after being impeached.

how he was impeached for getting head in a investigation aimed at looking at a land deal in Arkansas set up years before....makes me question if Republicans cared at all about Democracy. If Clinton had done what Bush has done, he would have been out the door, but Republicans lack ethics even more then Bill Cheating on his wife.

[bododie]

Bill Cheating on his wife.

LOL. And by your location, I'm guessing you were with Hillary during that time. EWWWWW!

Please don't start the "the other guy was MORE deceitful than my guy, so that absolves my guy" thing. It's pointless.

I don't disagree that the Republican party IN WASHINGTON, which does not include every registered Republican around the country by the way, is very corrupt and needs to be stopped. But, Hillary? Obama? Is that the best that the Dems have to offer in the entire political arena? Both of their political platforms are baloney, deceitful and gosh oh golly, not very practical for making my life, (an American) better in America.

Why do you think Bush was allowed to stay in office and not be impeached? Was it the fault of our representatives, or the fault of those insipid people that they represent?

[Foolosophy]

Me too. It also amazes me that Clinton was allowed to remain president after being impeached.

Impeached for what?

It seems that a US president can lie to start wars which kill countless people and NOT be impeached. Its understandle though. War is standard US foreign Policy.

Incidentally, has the USA ever taken on a nation that can actually defend itself? And with ground troops? rather than cowardly indiscriminate arial bombing.

Explan who is more impeachable, CLinton or Bush?
:cool:

[NO Obamanation]

Impeached for what?

It seems that a US president can lie to start wars which kill countless people and NOT be impeached. Its understandle though. War is standard US foreign Policy.

Incidentally, has the USA ever taken on a nation that can actually defend itself? And with ground troops? rather than cowardly indiscriminate arial bombing.

Explan who is more impeachable, CLinton or Bush?
:cool:

Only one of them lied under oath.........So far

[Here We Go]

Explain who is more impeachable, Clinton or Bush?
:cool:

Clinton was a sleezy bloke but George W. Bush wins top prize for what "impeach" is all about.
http://www.msnpro.com/funnyanimations/funnyanimation24.gif

[pocketfullofshells]

Only one of them lied under oath.........So far

the other one just did it in the state of the Union, evry speach he made, His VP Made. And then Undercover CIA Agent when they did not like what someone said, then when there guy is convicted of Perjury, they Paron him...


National Security, or Blow Jobs from Interns, Tell me what one is more important.

[NO Obamanation]

the other one just did it in the state of the Union, evry speach he made, His VP Made. And then Undercover CIA Agent when they did not like what someone said, then when there guy is convicted of Perjury, they Paron him...


National Security, or Blow Jobs from Interns, Tell me what one is more important.

start a thread on that outting the cia lady. That would be a good one.

[bododie]

They are constantly fighting with their neighbors...because their neighbors keep attacking them.

Do you really believe that Israel is all sweetness and light, and the poor mistreated step-child? You are misinformed doll.

[NO Obamanation]

Only Hillary had the b@!!$ to nuke them. She's out so.....get out your duct tape and hope for the best

[bododie]

National Security, or Blow Jobs from Interns, Tell me what one is more important.

First all, please enlighten us as to how much you know about the national security issues of this country. If you are simply getting information that is available to the public, then you don't know squat, just like the rest of us.

Second. Nobody cares who gives Clinton sexual favors. I do care when his lies about it cost me money, and they did!

Third. It is the mantra of the liberal mind to justify anything that someone does that they favor, if they can find someone else who did something "worse".

Can you tell me where the "honor" is in that mindset? Can you tell me what a liberal definition of honor is?

Neither party you are discussing has any honor. They both suck equally as humans regardless of political actions.

[pocketfullofshells]

First you keep saying liberal liberal ...then party party...not the same. Also I am not a Dem , for as many times I have to point that out on here .

2nd, because I unless most people pay attention, and get good sources, such as Globalsecurity.org, and other sources that are not dumbed down for the rest of the nation. Also while at school I had access to even more sources. But you know how I knew about the Forged Document and all that? News Hour on PBS did a story on it, talking with the UN and Americans in charge of looking at Iraq's WMD programs. Its amazing how much one can learn threw sources that are not labeled Top Secret in some CIA desk.

You know who cost you money? Republicans who took a Land deal and made into a Blow job scandal. They are the ones who cost taxpayers.

My whole point was how Republicans keep saying Bush was not as bad, and look what Bill did. and they don't even compare. and no one does not make the other ok.

[BigRob]

Should you compel Israel to sign a similar treaty?

Israel is the only state in that region that has nuclear weapons of Mass destruction.

Or is this a racially based treaty restricted to countries such as Iran?

And remember the Iranian nuclear scientists who are working on the Iranian nuclear power program were trained by MIT in the late 1970's

What about Saudi Arabia 0r Jordan?

treaties for them too?

Now, I may be a bit mistaken on the exact years, but I believe that the Shah was still in power in the late 1970's and he was a US ally. Why would MIT be bothered by an Iranian coming to their school at that point exactly?

[Federal Farmer]

Now, I may be a bit mistaken on the exact years, but I believe that the Shah was still in power in the late 1970's and he was a US ally. Why would MIT be bothered by an Iranian coming to their school at that point exactly?

You're not mistaken. Iran was an ally until the Shah was ousted in the Iranian revolution of '79, and many Iranian students remained here well into the 80's mainly because they were scared sh1tless to go home again. Even more of them applied for, and were granted US citizenship simply because they couldn't go home, since their families had been rounded up and killed for being supporters of the Shah, or simply for being secular and not raving Muslim militants.

[Jeugenen]

ISLAMOFASCIST AND JUDEOFASCIST SYMBIOSIS


The Islamofascists, in perpetual quest of greater wealth and power, rant to incite the impoverished Islamic peoples to violence against the notorious injustices of the powerful Judeofascist land robbers. The Judeofascists, in perpetual quest for greater wealth and power, wail and lobby to incite the American People into providing military protection against this persecution by outraged Islamofascists. To add credibility to these rantings and wailings, intermittent battles are fought. The result is that these clever Islamofascists and Judeofascists do gain great wealth and power, at the expense of the Arab, Persian, and American peoples.


The continuous illegal sacrifice of the wealth and blood of the American People on behalf Israel is all that perpetuates this destructive symbiotic relationship between the Islamofascists and the Judeofascists. But when, in the normal course of the American Cultural War, the Neo-Cons/Neo-Libs are finally expelled by the Reagan Conservatives and Kennedy Liberals from their positions of power, the economic and military support for the Judeofascists will finally end; and that will end the support for the Islamofascists. The end of the era of Neo-Con/Neo-Lib military intervention in the affairs of the Arab and Persian peoples shall be the start of an era of constructive relations with the American People.


The Judeofascists, who live in a glass house surrounded by Islamofascists, could continue fight for survival politically and militarily, until nuclear armed Israel finally becomes the site of a second great Judeocide, Holocaust II; or, they could offer sincere apologies, and generous economic reparations for the stolen land, damaged infrastructure, and losses of innocent lives; to finally win for themselves by just and peaceful means, what they cannot win by unjust and violent means.


Shall the World be cheering, and the Diaspora wailing; or, shall the World and the Diaspora be cheering?