Any CSI fans (?)

[n0spam4me]

I'm not a total TV freak, but at least I know what CSI is.
I bring up CSI in reference to evidence supression.
Any time there is an effort to hide anything, that is suppress evidence,
this sets off alarms with the investigators. Ok, who has something to hide and why?

I point this out, because the Bush administration is guilty of THEFT of video tape from the Virginia DOT. WHY would they hide a video recording of a Boeing 757 on its way to crash into the PENTAGON? unless maybe it was NOT a Boeing 757?

Hey look there, its the Emperor in his birthday suit!

[Dave]

Pherhaps you would like to enlighten us all on how something other than a 757 can hit the Pentagon within plain sight of one of the busiest sections of interstate in America, just a stones throw away from a huge airport, and still have hundreds of eye witness reports come in that it actually is a 757.

[Rokerijdude11]

he raises a FINE POINT if theyve Nothing to hide............
just release the tapes? simple end of story.........but they continue to hide the tapes?

[Dave]

The tapes that they have released have only confirmed everything they are saying.

[Rokerijdude11]

The tapes that they have released have only confirmed everything they are saying.

really? so your telling me you see a 757 in the released tapes?I find that very telling

[Dave]

really? so your telling me you see a 757 in the released tapes?I find that very telling

I think that the video from the Pentagon shows a big white blur, which is just what one would expect to appear on a video with the frame rate of the one that was filming the impact. Just exactly what video is the government withholding that you think would prove anything?

If you really want to know why the government took the video in the first place, keep in mind that the government was building a criminal case at the time. Once the government charged and convicted Moussaoui, they released the Pentagon video. If they hadn't done so, Moussaoui would have had a legitimate appeal that the jury pool had been tainted.

[Rokerijdude11]

I think that the video from the Pentagon shows a big white blur, which is just what one would expect to appear on a video with the frame rate of the one that was filming the impact. Just exactly what video is the government withholding that you think would prove anything?

If you really want to know why the government took the video in the first place, keep in mind that the government was building a criminal case at the time. Once the government charged and convicted Moussaoui, they released the Pentagon video. If they hadn't done so, Moussaoui would have had a legitimate appeal that the jury pool had been tainted.

Sorry pal I dont buy what your selling .......technology isnt stuck in 1970


like i said they have a multitude of tapes none of which has been released

they are concealing something or they would simply put an end to it with actual proof beyond a white blur as you claim to see

[Dave]

Sorry pal I dont buy what your selling .......technology isnt stuck in 1970


like i said they have a multitude of tapes none of which has been released

they are concealing something or they would simply put an end to it with actual proof beyond a white blur as you claim to see

Actually, a ton of tapes have been released. Do a little research on the subject. What do you claim to see in the Pentagon video? Or I should ask, what do you think should be visible of an object traveling over 500MPH with a security camera with a poor framerate? These cameras aren't designed to get a quality view of something traveling that fast. Not many cameras in the world are, and even fewer cameras marketed for security purposes are.

[Rokerijdude11]

Actually, a ton of tapes have been released. Do a little research on the subject. What do you claim to see in the Pentagon video? Or I should ask, what do you think should be visible of an object traveling over 500MPH with a security camera with a poor framerate? These cameras aren't designed to get a quality view of something traveling that fast. Not many cameras in the world are, and even fewer cameras marketed for security purposes are.
as i stated Im not Buying what your selling

ive seen all the pentagon tapes Im not convinced sorry

[vyo476]

as i stated Im not Buying what your selling

ive seen all the pentagon tapes Im not convinced sorry

You're not buying the facts? That an object moving at 500 mph hit the Pentagon? That the cameras that captured images of it happening have very poor frame rates? That cameras that are designed to capture video of things moving that fast aren't used for security purposes? What exactly is it that you "aren't buying"?

[r0beph]

I think he spent all his money on foil for his hat. Couldn't afford any facts after that splurge... :-\

That being said, negative proof annoys me...a lot. You can't prove something by inference when absolutely no proof exists. Especially when proof otherwise exists that you discount with a plethora of ways that no scientist would consider.

[vyo476]

like i said they have a multitude of tapes none of which has been released


And you know this how...? A link to the evidence would be nice.

[Rokerijdude11]

I think he spent all his money on foil for his hat. Couldn't afford any facts after that splurge... :-\

That being said, negative proof annoys me...a lot. You can't prove something by inference when absolutely no proof exists. Especially when proof otherwise exists that you discount with a plethora of ways that no scientist would consider.

I never stated i had any proof of anything? i said i dont buy his views.pretty simple I hate inferrance too

kettle meet pot

[Rokerijdude11]

And you know this how...? A link to the evidence would be nice.

do your own homework thanks

[Dave]

do your own homework thanks

The burden of proof lies with you making the claim. If there are more tapes that haven't been released, prove it.

[vyo476]

do your own homework thanks

http://www.judicialwatch.org/flight77.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJvFjsl6zk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H285_DWX_bQ

Those are the videos I could find. The DOT video is currently the only one unreleased. Now, two of the videos that the government sat on immediately after 9/11, the second and third links above, clearly don't show the plane or anything else heading towards the Pentagon. Besides the fact that there isn't any clear reason to suppress these videos (and that's what they did - it took FOIA suits to pry them out of the government's vaults), do we even know if the the DOT video would show anything? I mean, where is this camera? We know the video from it exists, but does it show nothing of the attack like the Doubletree Hotel video and the Citgo video?

Here's a good video. You should watch it. All of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

Or you could read this: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

[n0spam4me]

Considering the fact that the people who are holding on to the DOT video are major suspects in this CRIME, even if they did release something, given that they have had over 5 years to tamper with the evidence.....

oh well.

Think about it 9/11 = Reichstage Fire!
.

[vyo476]

Considering the fact that the people who are holding on to the DOT video are major suspects in this CRIME, even if they did release something, given that they have had over 5 years to tamper with the evidence.....

oh well.

Think about it 9/11 = Reichstage Fire!
.

Aha. So even if they did release the DOT video you'd say its been tampered with. And you wouldn't pay attention to any analyst who would say that the video is uncut and clean because...well, obviously the government got to them too!

Think about it! Large cataclysm has large impact which leads to large follow-up events. There's no conspiracy, just a natural progression of events stemming from an extreme tragedy. An extreme tragedy that your constant slogans and contortion of facts belittles severely.

Honestly, someday maybe you'll grow up and be ashamed of yourself.

[n0spam4me]

So, vyo476
as a taxpayer, are you happy with the FACT that the worlds greatest military power FAILED to defend even its own HQ and we have a commander in chief who sits on his ass in a photo-op rather than get up and do his job, the job that we_the_people pay him to do. The entire scene is a FARCE, top-to-bottom its a FRAUD, just like that "magic bullet" from the JFK assasination.
We are being treated like mushrooms!

9/11 was an inside job!
.

[Dave]

So, vyo476
as a taxpayer, are you happy with the FACT that the worlds greatest military power FAILED to defend even its own HQ and we have a commander in chief who sits on his ass in a photo-op rather than get up and do his job, the job that we_the_people pay him to do. The entire scene is a FARCE, top-to-bottom its a FRAUD, just like that "magic bullet" from the JFK assasination.
We are being treated like mushrooms!

9/11 was an inside job!
.

Lets forget for a second that the History Channel had a sniper recreate the JFK shot perfectly, point for point and get to the heart of the post. What could the nation have done to defend itself militarily? There simply wasnt enough time to launch an intercept, you cant place anti-air missiles around our cities, and even if they could be placed at the Pentagon they would be shooting down everything coming in and out of Reagan National Airport. How about you stop spouting catch phrase rhetoric and make a case for your position.

[n0spam4me]

ok, as for making a case for what I believe,
first off to address that History chanel documentary, did they get to retrieve a bullet that looked exactly like it had been fired in a ballistics lab?

Also, May I point out that the WHOLE FLT77 story is crazie as told by the "official 9/11 report" First off, at aprox the same time as the SECOND hit to the WTC (+ - a few min) FLT77 deviated from its flight plan and stopped talking to Air Traffic Control, FLT77 then flew for more than half an hour toward this nations Capital. Now I have both serviced and operated militar RADAR gear and the idea that they somehow "lost" FLT77 is just plane crazie.
The story about the dissabled transponder is also out-of-line in that the aircraft would still show up as a dot on the radar screen even if it didn't have a transponder signal and as an unidentified dot, (given the fact that both WTC towers had already been hit) RADAR operators would be especially concerned about an off-course airliner. There is also the aligation that FLT77 flew "under the RADAR" .... sorry no cookie! There is NO such thing as flying under the RADAR for the area that we are talking about. There are hundreds of small community airports with their own RADAR to watch the air space from the ground to aprox 15,000 FT, + even state of the art 20 years ago radar is capible of giving the radar operator a damn good guess as to the size of any given aircraft, so somebody used to seeing small single engine puddle jumpers on the radar now sees a Boeing 757 in airspace where it really doesn't belong. (can you say ALARM!)
There where the two jets scrambled to New York, and they didn't get there untill the second hit to the WTC however its aprox 10 min flying time from New York City to Washington D.C. and whoever was in charge ( Cheney, Rumsfeld....) demonstrated CRIMINAL incompetence by not directing those jets to fly patol over this nations Captial.

The whole scene stinks big time!
We_The_People don't pay big bucks in taxes to fund a Defense Department that FAILS miserably. And what has been done about it?
Up untill the time that he "retired" Donald Rumsfeld got nothing but praise from MAD KING GEORGE.

[Dave]

ok, as for making a case for what I believe,
first off to address that History chanel documentary, did they get to retrieve a bullet that looked exactly like it had been fired in a ballistics lab?

Also, May I point out that the WHOLE FLT77 story is crazie as told by the "official 9/11 report" First off, at aprox the same time as the SECOND hit to the WTC (+ - a few min) FLT77 deviated from its flight plan and stopped talking to Air Traffic Control, FLT77 then flew for more than half an hour toward this nations Capital. Now I have both serviced and operated militar RADAR gear and the idea that they somehow "lost" FLT77 is just plane crazie.
The story about the dissabled transponder is also out-of-line in that the aircraft would still show up as a dot on the radar screen even if it didn't have a transponder signal and as an unidentified dot, (given the fact that both WTC towers had already been hit) RADAR operators would be especially concerned about an off-course airliner. There is also the aligation that FLT77 flew "under the RADAR" .... sorry no cookie! There is NO such thing as flying under the RADAR for the area that we are talking about. There are hundreds of small community airports with their own RADAR to watch the air space from the ground to aprox 15,000 FT, + even state of the art 20 years ago radar is capible of giving the radar operator a damn good guess as to the size of any given aircraft, so somebody used to seeing small single engine puddle jumpers on the radar now sees a Boeing 757 in airspace where it really doesn't belong. (can you say ALARM!)
There where the two jets scrambled to New York, and they didn't get there untill the second hit to the WTC however its aprox 10 min flying time from New York City to Washington D.C. and whoever was in charge ( Cheney, Rumsfeld....) demonstrated CRIMINAL incompetence by not directing those jets to fly patol over this nations Captial.

The whole scene stinks big time!
We_The_People don't pay big bucks in taxes to fund a Defense Department that FAILS miserably. And what has been done about it?
Up untill the time that he "retired" Donald Rumsfeld got nothing but praise from MAD KING GEORGE.

There isnt some magic button that an air traffic controller can press and presto, there are jets in the air. Once the air traffic controller notices a jet off course (which might not be immediately), he has to attempt to reestablish contact with the aircraft, and then actually pick up a phone and make a call to someone to tell them that there is a possible threat. Then this information has to be phoned in to the pilots, and if the pilots aren't already in the air, its going to take another 5 minutes to get them in the air. If you worked on radar systems so much, you should know that all of NORAD's efforts are focused on aircraft coming into the country, not commercial aircraft operating in American airspace. To use small community radar networks takes time to coordinate. It simply couldn't be done in half an hour. I dont know where you are getting your information about Washington and New York being about 10 minutes apart but you are full of crap. I'm looking on Delta's flight schedule between JFK and DCA, and the shortest flight time they have is about 1 hour and a half. I know military jets are traveling a lot faster than commercial jets, but even if they were going double the speed of these commercial jets and even if they had been diverted immediately after someone realized something was wrong they would have arrived waaaaay late.

[Dave]

I just did the math on this one. Supersonic intercepts over American airspace were prohibited before 9/11, so the fastest a jet could travel was 769mph. The distance between Washington and New York is 204 miles if traveling by a straight line. This means that it would take at least 16 minutes to reach Washington from New York if traveling absolutely as fast as possible. Add in time to phone in the fact that the plane was off course, and time to coordinate with radar sites to find the current heading of the plane, there simply would not have been time for an intercept.

[n0spam4me]

I'll give you this, we dissagree
so be it. You have your explanation as to the way things where that day.

And I subscribe to a different view.

Enjoy .....

Just don't call me an less a patriot for asking questions.
QUESTION EVERYTHING!

like WHY does George W. Bush need to nullify the CONSTITUTION in order to make AMERICA safe from "terrorists"?

[Dave]

Nobody ever called you unpatriotic! Why is it that conspiracy theorists need to be some kind of martyr? As far as I've seen, nobody on this board has ever called anybody unpatriotic or unamerican because they believe the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, but we still have people like n0spam wanting to believe he is being pursecuted for his beliefs. Why?

[Rokerijdude11]

There isnt some magic button that an air traffic controller can press and presto, there are jets in the air. Once the air traffic controller notices a jet off course (which might not be immediately),

"which may not be immediatly" what a wonderfully misleading statement. superb writing tactic,im sure many will fall right into it.....

The reality of the matter is BUT NOT For longer than 30 seconds....the ATC has a Job to do its what they pay him for and that is to keep track of aircraft in the skies above this great land

He will notice the plane off course in a minute or less or he wont be working ATC for very long!so does he THEN push the magic button?

No of course not at that time he begins trying to contact the errant aircraft. after repeated attempts to raise the aircraft or when a transponder is turned off the ATC willl then take steps to contact NORAD which will then in turn scramble jets from an "Alert" base

he has to attempt to reestablish contact with the aircraft, and then actually pick up a phone and make a call to someone to tell them that there is a possible threat.

yes this will take a few minutes not a quarter hour or up to an hour as you are suggesting

Then this information has to be phoned in to the pilots, and if the pilots aren't already in the air, its going to take another 5 minutes to get them in the air.
what are you suggesting? that we are waiting on ethel to work the connection at the Plugboard at the central office? we have telephone ,radio, and internet capabilities its 2007 ? how long is this phone call or radio call gonna take i mean come on ? ...you seriously believe your own logic here?....hello its the most technologically advanced era of all time..... communications are INSTANT today... particularly in regards to NORAD and Defense ...

If you worked on radar systems so much, you should know that all of NORAD's efforts are focused on aircraft coming into the country, not commercial aircraft operating in American airspace.

thats BULL !!!

NORADS mission is to keep track of EVERYTHING IN THE SKY above America! What are you trying to pull? Ill say this, Only your writing style, has a chance of swaying SOME of the easier marks.... The rest of us ,clearly see the writing between the lines with you.

To use small community radar networks takes time to coordinate. It simply couldn't be done in half an hour.

birds could have been in the air in 20 mins tops .....awacs planes also could have been launched as well providing instantaneous radar ..your really something...The United States here bud not france.....i dont care pre 9-11 or not...

I dont know where you are getting your information about Washington and New York being about 10 minutes apart but you are full of crap. I'm looking on Delta's flight schedule between JFK and DCA, and the shortest flight time they have is about 1 hour and a half.

seriously you are comparing flight times of a commercial jetliner with intercept jets? you cant belive your logic here?


I know military jets are traveling a lot faster than commercial jets,


yeah i knew you couldnt be buying your own logic


but even if they were going double the speed of these commercial jets and even if they had been diverted immediately after someone realized something was wrong they would have arrived waaaaay late.

thats a phallacy . and simply incorrect................ you could have scrambled jets from Scott AFB in Illinois and still have made intercept....

[Dave]

Once again, you are operating under the assumptions that the air traffic controllers are extremely good at their jobs and would report a plane off course to NORAD. The first thing an ATC would try to do was to make contact with the pilot. Once again, that takes time. The FAA handled the situation on 9/11 for the most part since at first glance this was not a defense issue. As for NORAD's coverage, Maj. Douglas Martin, a NORAD public Affairs officer, was quoted as saying "It was like a doughnut. There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them. After the transponders were turned off, the FAA ATCs had to sift through 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. Its not suprising that they weren't able to pinpoint the right signal in time. Actually, Boston Center, one of 22 FAA regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes

[Rokerijdude11]

link please

[Dave]

Actually, most of that post came right out of one of the links I posted in the other thread. Just goes to show how much you read what people post. Anyway, here it is again.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=3

[Rokerijdude11]

just because i didnt read all of your LINKS articles dosent mean i havent read your posts?......thats your MOS isnt it?