The Fundamentalist Agenda

[Coyote]

A long read...but interesting....thoughts anyone?


The Fundamentalist Agenda
...is absolutely natural, ancient, and powerful—but the liberal impulse makes us humane.
By Davidson Loehr

The most famous definition of fundamentalism is H. L. Mencken's: a terrible, pervasive fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun. There's something to this. Fundamentalism is too fearful, too restrictive, too lacking in faith to provide a home for the human spirit to soar or for human societies to blossom.

But there are far more fundamental things to understand about fundamentalism, especially in this age of terrorism. An adequate understanding also includes some inescapable and uncomfortable critiques of America's cultural liberalism of the last four decades. The attacks on September 11, 2001, provided us a rare revelation about fundamentalism that arrived in two installments.

First, we became vividly aware of the things some Muslim fundamentalists hate about our culture:* They hate liberated women and all that symbolizes them. They hate it when women compete with men in the workplace, when they decide when or whether they will bear children, when they show the independence of getting abortions. They hate changes in laws that previously gave men more power over women.
* They hate the wide range of sexual orientations and lifestyles that have always characterized human societies. They hate homosexuality.
* They hate individual freedoms that allow people to stray from the rigid sort of truth they want to constrain all people. They hate individual rights that let others slough off their simple certainties.
Not much was really new in this installment of the revelation. We had seen all this before, when Khomeini's Muslim fundamentalists wreaked such havoc in Iran starting in 1979. We have long known that Muslim fundamentalism is a mortal enemy of freedom and democracy.

The surprise second installment came just a few days after 9 / 11 in that remarkably unguarded interview on The 700 Club when the Rev. Jerry Falwell told Pat Robertson, “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'” These men are so media-savvy it's amazing they would say such things on the air. But it's also remarkable because in their list of “causes” of the 9 / 11 attacks, we heard almost exactly the same hate list:* They hate liberated women who don't follow orders, who get abortions when they want them, who threaten or laugh at some men's arrogant pretensions to rule them.
* They hate the wide range of sexual orientations that have always characterized human societies. They would force the country to conform to a fantasy image of two married heterosexual parents where the husband works and the wife stays home with the children—even when that describes fewer than 25 percent of current American families.
* They hate individual freedoms that let people stray from the one simple set of truths they want imposed on all in our country. Robertson has been on record for a long time saying that democracy isn't a fit form of government unless it is run by his kind of fundamentalist Christians.
Together, the two installments make vivid the fact that “our” Christian fundamentalists have the same hate list as “their” Muslim fundamentalists.

From 1988 to 1993, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences sponsored an interdisciplinary study known as The Fundamentalism Project, the largest such study ever done. More than 100 scholars from all over the world took part, reporting on every imaginable kind of fundamentalism. And what they discovered was that the agenda of all fundamentalist movements in the world is virtually identical, regardless of religion or culture.

They identified five characteristics shared by virtually all fundamentalisms.

Article is too long to fully post - but the remainder is here: http://www.uuworld.org/2004/01/feature2.html

[palerider]

I have talked to lots of folks and if you ask me, liberals are far better at hate than conservatives. I dislike a lot of things but can't think of much that I hate beyond brocoli. The same can be said for most of the conservatives that I know. The liberals that I know, however, do hate. The same can be seen on various boards. You would be hard pressed to show me a mostly conservative board that engages in hate but typically, the more liberal a board is, the more hate is represented.

[Coyote]

I have talked to lots of folks and if you ask me, liberals are far better at hate than conservatives. I dislike a lot of things but can't think of much that I hate beyond brocoli. The same can be said for most of the conservatives that I know. The liberals that I know, however, do hate. The same can be seen on various boards. You would be hard pressed to show me a mostly conservative board that engages in hate but typically, the more liberal a board is, the more hate is represented.

I think you have your own bias here. I certainly see plenty of hate from "conservatives" - every bit as much as from liberals I'm willing to bet. I think we each are more sensitized to the opposite.

However - I will say this: I see far more hate coming from ideological extremists in general then from either left or right. I think that is the problem. This article, in particular - I like because it is not about political fundamentalism, but rather fundamentalism and liberalism as overall ways of thinking. There is value in both and problems arise when the balance is disrupted.

When you think about it - extremist groups like KKK, Christian Reconstructionists, Radical Islam, Extremist Environmental Groups - have much more in common with each other then they do with their more moderate kindred.


I hate peas.


And I probably wouldn't like seacucumbers either.

[vyo476]

I think you have your own bias here. I certainly see plenty of hate from "conservatives" - every bit as much as from liberals I'm willing to bet. I think we each are more sensitized to the opposite.

However - I will say this: I see far more hate coming from ideological extremists in general then from either left or right. I think that is the problem. This article, in particular - I like because it is not about political fundamentalism, but rather fundamentalism and liberalism as overall ways of thinking. There is value in both and problems arise when the balance is disrupted.

When you think about it - extremist groups like KKK, Christian Reconstructionists, Radical Islam, Extremist Environmental Groups - have much more in common with each other then they do with their more moderate kindred.


I hate peas.


And I probably wouldn't like seacucumbers either.

Lets not forget the classic Nazi/Soviet parallels and they were supposed to be on opposite sides of the social spectrum.

Peas are gross but I'm with palerider, broccoli is disgusting.

[Coyote]

Lets not forget the classic Nazi/Soviet parallels and they were supposed to be on opposite sides of the social spectrum.

Exactly! Thank you for bringing those up.:)



Peas are gross but I'm with palerider, broccoli is disgusting.

You sound like an extremist radical....

[vyo476]

You sound like an extremist radical....

Don't tell me you like broccoli. I'll blow you up.

[Sgt Schultz]

I have talked to lots of folks and if you ask me, liberals are far better at hate than conservatives. I dislike a lot of things but can't think of much that I hate beyond brocoli. The same can be said for most of the conservatives that I know. The liberals that I know, however, do hate. The same can be seen on various boards. You would be hard pressed to show me a mostly conservative board that engages in hate but typically, the more liberal a board is, the more hate is represented.

Obviously you've never been to Townhall.com, Sean Hannity's forum or some of the other conservative/religious forums out there. If you have then I think your bias is truly showing.

[USMC the Almighty]

Obviously you've never been to Townhall.com, Sean Hannity's forum or some of the other conservative/religious forums out there. If you have then I think your bias is truly showing.

Hannity's forum is actually balanced quite nicely. I'm not sure how it happened, but from my own experience there -- I'd say it's 60% conservative/40% liberal. A lot of people there call themselves "moderates" but they almost always fall into one category or another. There's also a sizeable number of Constitutional libertarians.

[Coyote]

Don't tell me you like broccoli. I'll blow you up.

You...you.....



Brocollifascist!!!!!

[Sgt Schultz]

Hannity's forum is actually balanced quite nicely. I'm not sure how it happened, but from my own experience there -- I'd say it's 60% conservative/40% liberal. A lot of people there call themselves "moderates" but they almost always fall into one category or another. There's also a sizeable number of Constitutional libertarians.

But there is a lot of hate/anger shown by both sides from what I have seen on various forums, including Hannity's. Most people regardless of where they fall in the spectrum are pretty reasonable. But to say only one side does it (which I am not accusing you of) is nothing more than ignoring the side that you agree with to complain about the other.

[vyo476]

You...you.....



Brocollifascist!!!!!

I've been called a lot of things but never that.

I can see it now - red armbands with pictures of broccoli crossed out, mass rallies preaching anti-broccoli hatred, broccoli-burnings (God that'd smell bad), and the eventual systematic rounding up, enslavement, and death of every broccoli farmer in the world.

Prepare for Brococaust.

[Coyote]

I've been called a lot of things but never that.

I can see it now - red armbands with pictures of broccoli crossed out, mass rallies preaching anti-broccoli hatred, broccoli-burnings (God that'd smell bad), and the eventual systematic rounding up, enslavement, and death of every broccoli farmer in the world.

Prepare for Brococaust.


A new world order. Brussel Sprouts are next. Kohlrabi...only a matter of time.

[vyo476]

A new world order. Brussel Sprouts are next. Kohlrabi...only a matter of time.

The beefsteak will rule FOREVER!!!!!!!!!

[Coyote]

I've been called a lot of things but never that.

I can see it now - red armbands with pictures of broccoli crossed out, mass rallies preaching anti-broccoli hatred, broccoli-burnings (God that'd smell bad), and the eventual systematic rounding up, enslavement, and death of every broccoli farmer in the world.

Prepare for Brococaust.

The beefsteak will rule FOREVER!!!!!!!!!

And garlic...can't forget the garlic.....


now....about those cauliflowers.....an abomination!

[heyjude]

Okra is the worst. It is slimely. Everyone says cook it this way or that way and it won't be. Bull! It is slimey when it is raw. I'll join any movement to make it a felony to grow okra.

[vyo476]

Okra is the worst. It is slimely. Everyone says cook it this way or that way and it won't be. Bull! It is slimey when it is raw. I'll join any movement to make it a felony to grow okra.

I've never had okra before. Perhaps we can add it to the agenda after the Final Broccoli Solution has been implemented but for now it's just going to have to take a backseat.

[Coyote]

The Bible says Okra is an abomination.

[vyo476]

The Bible says Okra is an abomination.

**** the Bible. We're brocofascists and we don't adhere to any religion. The Last Supper? I suspect that they ate broccoli. This claim is entirely unsubstantiated but I don't care because as a brocofascist the FACTS give way to the TRUTH.

Okra will burn too. Why? Because I say it will damnit.

[Coyote]

**** the Bible. We're brocofascists and we don't adhere to any religion. The Last Supper? I suspect that they ate broccoli. This claim is entirely unsubstantiated but I don't care because as a brocofascist the FACTS give way to the TRUTH.

Okra will burn too. Why? Because I say it will damnit.

That's heresy!!!!! Be careful - or you could end up here...


The Brocolli Hell - or Divine Salad

First Circle (compost pile). Here reside unlightened: grocery-store tomatoes, and tasteless apples. Though not sinful, knever knew the doctrine of the Broccofascist.

Second Circle (the forgotten refridgerator vegtable drawer). Disbelievers overcome by advanced decomposition are punished in this circle. Wilted lettuce, slimey peppers, and squishy cukes.

Third Circle (coleslaw) - faced by rotating chopper blades and an endless supply of Ginzu knives here reside the distant brocolli relatives: cabbage, drowned in mayonaise and pickle juice.

Fourth Circle (toaster oven) - those who have known the Broccofascist blessing yet turned away to sin - the Brusselsprouts. Here they be drenched in butter and parmisan cheese to braise eternally.

Fifth Circle (pickel barrel) - in the pickled swamp-like water of the barrel Styx, the saurkrauts fight each other on the surface, and the pickles lie gurgling beneath the brine. This gets pretty slimey too.

Sixth Circle. Heretic Kohlrabbi are trapped in flaming barbecue pits.

Seventh Circle. This circle houses the violent Potatoes: the chips, the dips, the fries, the chedder cheese and bacon topped skins and the dreaded blasphemous baked potatos with sour cream and onions.

Eight Circle. This houses all the grossly overcooked Cauliflower and Brocolli you have ever had to eat. Mushy, tasteless and covered in velveeta.

Ninth Circle. This houses Okra. Need I say more?

[Kelly]

I'm reporting Palerider, Vyo, and Coyote to the World Coalition for Vegetable Rights, Broccoli and Peas Division!

[vyo476]

I'm reporting Palerider, Vyo, and Coyote to the World Coalition for Vegetable Rights, Broccoli and Peas Division!

Our panzerburger divisions will wipe them out in short order.

[Coyote]

I'm reporting Palerider, Vyo, and Coyote to the World Coalition for Vegetable Rights, Broccoli and Peas Division!

I've got Rudabega's backing me up bucko!

[Coyote]

woops...

[palerider]

Lets not forget the classic Nazi/Soviet parallels and they were supposed to be on opposite sides of the social spectrum.


Exactly! Thank you for bringing those up.

That exchange happened back in may. Tell me, would you still attempt to put nazis and soviets on the opposite sides of the political spectrum or the soviet simply further left on the left spectrum than the nazis?

[Coyote]

That exchange happened back in may. Tell me, would you still attempt to put nazis and soviets on the opposite sides of the political spectrum or the soviet simply further left on the left spectrum than the nazis?

I would put one on the right and the other on the left and both in the authoritarian side.

Notice what I also said:

When you think about it - extremist groups like KKK, Christian Reconstructionists, Radical Islam, Extremist Environmental Groups - have much more in common with each other then they do with their more moderate kindred.

[vyo476]

That exchange happened back in may. Tell me, would you still attempt to put nazis and soviets on the opposite sides of the political spectrum or the soviet simply further left on the left spectrum than the nazis?

I believe I used the term "social spectrum." The Soviets were egalitarians and the Nazis were racial elitists. Yes, I'd still put them on opposite sides of the social spectrum.

Not everything has to do with size of government.

[Coyote]

I believe I used the term "social spectrum." The Soviets were egalitarians and the Nazis were racial elitists. Yes, I'd still put them on opposite sides of the social spectrum.

Not everything has to do with size of government.

Exactly...and that is part of the problem with simplistic left/right scales imo - they latch onto only one factor to define an ideology.

[invest07]

So what if fundamentalists have an agenda?
Is there any group out there today that doesn't have an agenda?

1. You can't be serious and suggest that the ACLU does not have a particular world view and that their actions are taken out of any other motivation than advancing their agenda.
2. There are active socialists and communists advancing their agendas.
3. Every liberal group advances their agenda which includes expansion of government and the welfare state.
4. The NRA has an agenda.
5. NOW has an agenda.
6. The NAACP has an agenda.
7. The abortion industry has an agenda. They have billions of dollars in annual income to protect.
8. The oil industry has an agenda. They also have billions of dollars to protect.
9. Homosexuals have an agenda.
10. Labor unions have an agenda.
11. PETA has an agenda.
12. Greenpeace has an agenda.
13. Both the Democrats and Republicans have agendas.
14. Atheists have an agenda.

So if fundamentalists have an agenda, how is there something wrong with that?

[invest07]

Both Nazi Germany and Soviet style communism are leftist in basic nature.

1. Both required govenrment control of production.
2. Both required their citizens to surrender major rights.
3. Both required citizens to surrender their private arms.
4. Both required massive government infrastructures that consumed huge amounts of the national GDP.
5. Both required loyalty to the state to the point of death.

The Left can morph into pleasing forms but it never really changes it's basic nature.

[Coyote]

The article was about more then just a superficial "agenda" but about deeper underlying differences that are both natural and normal and appropriate to different times in our history. And are biological.

You only seem to focus on the superficial aspects.

[Coyote]

Both Nazi Germany and Soviet style communism are leftist in basic nature.

1. Both required govenrment control of production.
2. Both required their citizens to surrender major rights.
3. Both required citizens to surrender their private arms.
4. Both required massive government infrastructures that consumed huge amounts of the national GDP.
5. Both required loyalty to the state to the point of death.

The Left can morph into pleasing forms but it never really changes it's basic nature.

That's right: Nazi rightwing, Communist leftwing. Both authoritarian.

Similarities don't mean "same":

Cats and Cows:

both have 4 legs
both are warm blooded
both have fur
both poduce milk
both have brains
both poop

They must be the same according to your logic.

No...wait - they are both mammals, just like Nazi and Commie are political ideologies - but they are very different families.

[invest07]

coyote

As I recall the acronym NAZI stands for something like National Socialist Party. Both the Nazis and Soviets were lefties. The fact that they fought each other in WW2 had zero to do with ideology and every thing to do with Hitler's Napoleonesque ambitions.

Stalin had similar ambitions which he passed on to Nikita and Leonid and Gorbachev. It took a true conservative (Ron Reagan) to elminate the threat to freedom from the Soviets.

I confess I haven't read every post or all of your intro. I will soon and I'm sure we will have huge differences. Perhaps I can present to you the true fundie aganda rather that your sound bite, PC, leftie psychobabble.

[Coyote]

coyote

As I recall the acronym NAZI stands for something like National Socialist Party. Both the Nazis and Soviets were lefties. The fact that they fought each other in WW2 had zero to do with ideology and every thing to do with Hitler's Napoleonesque ambitions.

Stalin had similar ambitions which he passed on to Nikita and Leonid and Gorbachev. It took a true conservative (Ron Reagan) to elminate the threat to freedom from the Soviets.

I confess I haven't read every post or all of your intro. I will soon and I'm sure we will have huge differences. Perhaps I can present to you the true fundie aganda rather that your sound bite, PC, leftie psychobabble.

It doesn't matter what they called themselves - it's what they were in practice. There is a better discussion of this on another thread (I think the one on Modern Liberalism is Authoritarian by PaleRider) - so I won't get into it here.

However, before you shunt something off as a "sound bite" - why don't you read it without preconceived ideas and judgements?

It's far more indepth then the superficial left/right psychobabble you seem addicted to.