Why does Israel do what it does?

[Kelly]

I'm new to this forum, but these threads are awesome. I'm pretty educated about the Israel/Palestine Conflict, but I'd like to know:
1. Why are the Israelis doing the same thing to the Palestinians that happened to Jews in the Holocaust?
2. Why is it considered anti-semitic to criticize Israel for the blatant genocide it is committing?
3. How has the Israeli lobby effort been so successful, to the point that the United States government supports a rogue nation (by definition, Israel IS a rogue nation)?
4. Why does Israel only take, take, take, and give nothing back to the U.S.?
5. Why would the U.S. support a theocracy, considering the American Constitutional endorsement of Lockian Liberalism (separation of church and state)? Yes, Israel IS a theocracy. They might have the Knesset, etc., but Judaism obviously rules the day.
6. Why would Israel even have an alliance (even a take-only relationship) with the United States? Any you who study the Bible or Torah will know that the Jews got exiled from the Holy Land for making alliance with foreign entities (Israel [the North] had heavy ties with Tyre and Aram and Assyria, while Judah [the South] developed strong ties with the Assyrians in order to take Israel back from under its gentile influences) I'm not a 'walking Bible,' but I can dig up citations about the Second Exile if any of you challenge what I just mentioned about the Jews and foreign alliances in the Bible/Torah.
Thanks in advance for enlightening me!!!

[palerider]

I'm new to this forum, but these threads are awesome. I'm pretty educated about the Israel/Palestine Conflict, but I'd like to know:
1. Why are the Israelis doing the same thing to the Palestinians that happened to Jews in the Holocaust?

Which death camps are the "palestinians" being sent to to be gassed and incenerated?

2. Why is it considered anti-semitic to criticize Israel for the blatant genocide it is committing?

genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Describe to me how they are deliberately and systematically exterminating palestinians. If you believe retaliation for attacks constitutes genocide, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the tactics of the nazis?

3. How has the Israeli lobby effort been so successful, to the point that the United States government supports a rogue nation (by definition, Israel IS a rogue nation)?

By definition, a rogue nation is a nation that does not respect other states in its international actions. Which other states does israel want to see wiped fropm the face of the earth? Which other states does israel refuse to accept the legitimacy of?

Defending oneself from the blatant hostility of one's neighbors is necessary. Especially when one's neighbors want to wipe one from the face of the earth.


4. Why does Israel only take, take, take, and give nothing back to the U.S.?

Have we asked them for anything?


5. Why would the U.S. support a theocracy, considering the American Constitutional endorsement of Lockian Liberalism (separation of church and state)? Yes, Israel IS a theocracy. They might have the Knesset, etc., but Judaism obviously rules the day.

There is no American constitutional separation of church and state.


6. Why would Israel even have an alliance (even a take-only relationship) with the United States? Any you who study the Bible or Torah will know that the Jews got exiled from the Holy Land for making alliance with foreign entities (Israel [the North] had heavy ties with Tyre and Aram and Assyria, while Judah [the South] developed strong ties with the Assyrians in order to take Israel back from under its gentile influences) I'm not a 'walking Bible,' but I can dig up citations about the Second Exile if any of you challenge what I just mentioned about the Jews and foreign alliances in the Bible/Torah.

In one sentence you condemn the US for supporting a state based on a religion claiming a separation of church and state and in the next, you want the US to administer foriegn policy based on the Torah? Make up your mind.

Clearly your postion is based on little more than sarcasm and exageration. Try asking some serious questions.

[USMC the Almighty]

1. Why are the Israelis doing the same thing to the Palestinians that happened to Jews in the Holocaust?

Because they are responding to the rockets landing in the living rooms of their civilians.


2. Why is it considered anti-semitic to criticize Israel for the blatant genocide it is committing?

Well I don't understand the labelling any anti-Israeli sentiment as anti-Semitic, but I don't buy into your theory that they're comitting "blatant genocide".


3. How has the Israeli lobby effort been so successful, to the point that the United States government supports a rogue nation (by definition, Israel IS a rogue nation)?

Because they provide the U.S. with security. Not only are they a shock absorber for all anti-West action in the Arab World, but they also have a history of doing the dirty work for the U.S. (for instance -- their raid on Saddam's nuclear reactor in the early 80s) -- the stuff we can't do because it would get us in trouble politically.


4. Why does Israel only take, take, take, and give nothing back to the U.S.?

They do give us stuff: security. See above. If the entire Middle East wasn't so focused with "liquidating the Zionist presence" (their words, not mine) then all their hatred would be targeted at the U.S. That's why it's worth supporting Israel.


5. Why would the U.S. support a theocracy, considering the American Constitutional endorsement of Lockian Liberalism (separation of church and state)? Yes, Israel IS a theocracy. They might have the Knesset, etc., but Judaism obviously rules the day.

I'm not going to argue that Israel's not governed, at least in part, by religion. They have the Star of David on their flag for crying out loud. However, they are the only functioning democracy in the Middle East in terms of government/elections, etc.

Secondly, you're handle on Lockean philosophy is a bit shakey. For more, check out my remarks in the separation of church and state thread. Essentially, Locke/Jefferson argued that the people are inherently granted certain inalienable rights by their Creator (i.e. NOT the government). This means that each individual is the sovereign and ultimately, it rules the government, not the otherway around. This is important because it insures that the gov't is eternally subservient to the citizens and thus, it cannot abridge these inalienable rights.

The presence of Jefferson's "Creator" is important because it serves as a reminder of where people get their inalienable rights from.


6. Why would Israel even have an alliance (even a take-only relationship) with the United States? Any you who study the Bible or Torah will know that the Jews got exiled from the Holy Land for making alliance with foreign entities (Israel [the North] had heavy ties with Tyre and Aram and Assyria, while Judah [the South] developed strong ties with the Assyrians in order to take Israel back from under its gentile influences) I'm not a 'walking Bible,' but I can dig up citations about the Second Exile if any of you challenge what I just mentioned about the Jews and foreign alliances in the Bible/Torah.


I can't answer this from a religious perspective, but economically, we are a massive asset to Israel.

[ArmChair General]

This may answer some of your questions

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

[Truth-Bringer]

4. Why does Israel only take, take, take, and give nothing back to the U.S.?

Because it can give nothing. It's a totally one-sided alliance.


5. Why would the U.S. support a theocracy, considering the American Constitutional endorsement of Lockian Liberalism (separation of church and state)? Yes, Israel IS a theocracy. They might have the Knesset, etc., but Judaism obviously rules the day.

Actually, Zionism rules the day. Technically, they're not a theocracy, but they did want that land due to religious reasons. They can deny it all they like, but THAT PARTICULAR LAND was a demand of the Zionists.


6. Why would Israel even have an alliance (even a take-only relationship) with the United States?

The question is, why would anyone have an alliance with Israel, since Israel couldn't send troops to help if we were invaded. Israel is surrounded by enemies and couldn't risk sending troops for fear of attack. Again, it's a totally one-sided alliance.

As for my take on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, let's look at the creation of the state of Israel. On the following link you'll see a brief overview of the origin of the state of Israel and also the fact that Arabs there were not happy with the United Nation's partition plan and voted to reject it.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_un_role.php

Also, if you'll note the populations at the time, the Arabs were a clear majority. The majority isn't always right, but common sense will tell you that challenging the majority will result in conflict whether they are right or wrong. To believe that the Jews would have a peaceful welcome in Palestine was wishful thinking on the part of the U.N. This does not justify violent actions on the part of the Arabs, but again, the laws of cause and effect cannot be ignored. The Arabs are unequivocally wrong to pursue violence as a means of retaliation, but it is clear that their rights were violated first.

In the late 40's, the Palestinian people were overruled and their wishes were ignored by the U.N. To put oneself in their shoes, did the citizens in Palestine vote to elect any of the U.N. leaders who made this decision? Do you believe that a group such as the U.N. or any other political group has the right to make decisions that affect the lives of people if these same people are not allowed to vote them into (or out of) representative positions? Do you believe this is a fair way to decide issues? And if so, would you allow another political body which you or no one else in the U.S. voted for to come in and forcibly relocate you or force you to share land when it was against your desire to do so? I think a lot of people wouldn't like this. I know I wouldn't. I would feel like my rights had been violated.

The Palestinians warned the world that they would resist with violence if the U.N. plan was enacted, and that is exactly what they did. Were they morally wrong in choosing to initiate violence? Absolutely. However, were the Jewish people, more specifically the Zionists, wrong to pursue the creation of a state in an area of people who did not desire the presence of such a state, who voted against it, and who had it forced upon them by a political body they did not elect? I definitely think so, and this becomes the cause. For the Zionists to pursue such a plan and enter an area like this, surrounded by the followers of a religion of violence like Islam, just to in essence "reclaim" land that was allegedly granted to them by God is either incredibly arrogant or incredibly short-sighted.

The real reason the Arabs resisted was not because of hatred of the Jews, but because they saw the encroachment as a repeat of the creation of the Crusader states. Castles built by Europeans in the holy land still stand as daily reminders of the holocaust that demolished an early, prosperous Islamic civilization. Some cultures have very long memories (unlike the short attention span of Americans). Two of the three main divisions of the PLO are named after battles fought during the Crusades. What the Jewish people have really done is blunder into a thousand year war between the Christian West and the Islamic world, and now the Muslims are focused on them.

[USMC the Almighty]

My main complaint w/ the Palestinians is that they're always accepting yesterday's treaty. It's the same story over and over again.

Arabs invade Israel. Get piss beating out of them. Cry that Israel's taking land and demand to return to pre-war state. New generations of Arabs attack Israel....

[Coyote]

Poor little Israel. It never does anything to deserve this critisism. Ya, right. It's the same story over and over again. And if you critisize Israel, someone is sure to trot out the holocast as if, somehow - just because Isreal doesn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the holocast, then any bad treatment short of that is A-Okay because it's not as bad as the holocast right?

[palerider]

Poor little Israel. It never does anything to deserve this critisism. Ya, right. It's the same story over and over again. And if you critisize Israel, someone is sure to trot out the holocast as if, somehow - just because Isreal doesn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the holocast, then any bad treatment short of that is A-Okay because it's not as bad as the holocast right?


The "palestinians" are where they are, living how the do by choice, not because they were rounded up and put in slums. There are plenty of arabs living normal lives in israel and they have far more freedom than they would have in their own countries. The "palestinians" are where they are because they would rather live like animals than live with jews...and the jordanians won't let them on the land that is rightfully their country.

[ArmChair General]

Heres a good book:

Terror Enigma: 9/11 And the Israeli Connection (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0595296823/ref=olp_product_details/102-5868515-0342562?ie=UTF8&seller=)

[vyo476]

The "palestinians" are where they are, living how the do by choice, not because they were rounded up and put in slums. There are plenty of arabs living normal lives in israel and they have far more freedom than they would have in their own countries. The "palestinians" are where they are because they would rather live like animals than live with jews...and the jordanians won't let them on the land that is rightfully their country.

Maybe "freedom" isn't exactly what they want. Maybe they want a government that adheres to their own principles. Maybe they choose to live as they do because it is the only way to live in their home without endorsing a government that runs opposite to what they believe.

There is no partition plan and no halfway point that'll settle this. There are too many differences between what the Palestinians want and what the Israelis want.

[Coyote]

The "palestinians" are where they are, living how the do by choice, not because they were rounded up and put in slums. There are plenty of arabs living normal lives in israel and they have far more freedom than they would have in their own countries. The "palestinians" are where they are because they would rather live like animals than live with jews...and the jordanians won't let them on the land that is rightfully their country.

The Palestinians can not all live in Israel - they have no "right of return". I do not think they are living where they live by choice. Isreal does not want them. Neither does Jordan though Jordan took in many previously. No one does. They just want their land. Speaking of which you totally bypass the issue of why exactly all that occupied territory "belongs" to Israel?

So what are you talking about?

[Dave]

The Palestinians can not all live in Israel - they have no "right of return". I do not think they are living where they live by choice. Isreal does not want them. Neither does Jordan though Jordan took in many previously. No one does. They just want their land. Speaking of which you totally bypass the issue of why exactly all that occupied territory "belongs" to Israel?

So what are you talking about?

They acquired the territory in war. Thats the way the world has worked since the beginning of time. Regardless of who provoked who, or who fired the first shot, it really doesn't matter. When the war was over, Israel had the land, fair and square.

[ArmChair General]

They acquired the territory in war. Thats the way the world has worked since the beginning of time. Regardless of who provoked who, or who fired the first shot, it really doesn't matter. When the war was over, Israel had the land, fair and square.

and they've been paying for it ever since.

as it stands, as long as they are there, the fighting will continue. And perhaps the most ironic thing, is that eventually Israel will lose anyways. The arab birthrate will eventually win it.

So really, this is all just a waste of life. In the end, The Israeli's will be gone, and the Arabs and Persians will still be there, as its always been. Every power thats been their has eventually left. War is just Demographics.

[Castle]

I could write a book about this subject but it would fall on deaf ears so whats the point.
Instead I'll quote a few passages from the Hamas Charter.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it"
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

NUFF SAID!

-Castle

[ArmChair General]

I could write a book about this subject but it would fall on deaf ears so whats the point.
Instead I'll quote a few passages from the Hamas Charter.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it"
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

NUFF SAID!

-Castle

Jeez, the Israeli's have been working trying to kill each and every last Pal since they invaded. The problem is that they are just about as good at Counter Insurgency warfare as we are. Meaning terrible.

I suppose the most Ironic thing, is that it was the Israeli secret services that created Hamas in the first place, as a "counterweight" to the quasi-commie PLO. Hamas was going to be the dumb Islamic faction that would harass the PLO into ineffectiveness, as if the PLO ever needed any help getting there. Well, it worked a little too well. Two intifadas and one Hamas leadership later, the Israelis would give anything to have a pitiful coward like Arafat back in charge, instead of these crazy Hamas guys with 17 children each and a bad case of martyr-envy.

[Castle]

Jeez, the Israeli's have been working trying to kill each and every last Pal since they invaded. The problem is that they are just about as good at Counter Insurgency warfare as we are. Meaning terrible.

I suppose the most Ironic thing, is that it was the Israeli secret services that created Hamas in the first place, as a "counterweight" to the quasi-commie PLO. Hamas was going to be the dumb Islamic faction that would harass the PLO into ineffectiveness, as if the PLO ever needed any help getting there. Well, it worked a little too well. Two intifadas and one Hamas leadership later, the Israelis would give anything to have a pitiful coward like Arafat back in charge, instead of these crazy Hamas guys with 17 children each and a bad case of martyr-envy.

Forgive my laughter but......please!
Politics aside (which this is and nothing more) Israel has it in its power to sweep away the Palestinians before even breaking a sweat. If Hamas and militant Pals were in the same position, Israel would have gone the way of the dinosaur long ago.

I happen to agree with Hamas on one issue. This will NEVER be solved on the negotiating table. Israel must crush them or expect more savagery in the future. Politics will never allow this solution.

-Castle

[ArmChair General]

Forgive my laughter but......please!
Politics aside (which this is and nothing more) Israel has it in its power to sweep away the Palestinians before even breaking a sweat. If Hamas and militant Pals were in the same position, Israel would have gone the way of the dinosaur long ago.

I happen to agree with Hamas on one issue. This will NEVER be solved on the negotiating table. Israel must crush them or expect more savagery in the future. Politics will never allow this solution.

-Castle

Well you can't really nuke the land that you wanna steal can you? I mean you can, but it would take a long time before you could move back in, which sort of defeats the purpose.

If you mean conventionally, well they've been trying to "sweep them away" for the last 25 years. Look how good thats working for em.

[9sublime]

Its just not going to end for a very, very long time.

[palerider]

Maybe "freedom" isn't exactly what they want. Maybe they want a government that adheres to their own principles. Maybe they choose to live as they do because it is the only way to live in their home without endorsing a government that runs opposite to what they believe.

There is no partition plan and no halfway point that'll settle this. There are too many differences between what the Palestinians want and what the Israelis want.


All they want is for the jews to be dead. If their want was given to them, then the "palestinians" would have no further use and every one of them, down to the last child would simply become jordanians as jordan expanded its border to encompass israel.

[palerider]

Well you can't really nuke the land that you wanna steal can you? I mean you can, but it would take a long time before you could move back in, which sort of defeats the purpose.

If you mean conventionally, well they've been trying to "sweep them away" for the last 25 years. Look how good thats working for em.

You believe nukes would be necessary? You really are an armchair general aren't you? You don't have a clue as to what the military is capable of. Do you think that we are at the limit of our ability in iraq? Do you think that we are in the situation we are in because we have no other options? If the US wanted, we could flex a fraction of our true military muscle and leave no iraqi alive and no building standing in 2 weeks and never have to consider nuclear weapons.

The same is true for israel. If they really wanted all of the palestinians dead, they would be dead. Down to the last one. They have 21 squadrons of the most advanced fighters and bombers available. Not to mention the helicopter squadrons. One squadron of fighters, or bombers could remove the palestinian nusance in a day or so. They need only be willing to kill everyone in the palestinian areas. Everyone. The reason that they (the palestinians) haven't been swept away is because they (Israel) don't want to do it. Israel has the same capacity for destruction that we do and like us, they don't unleash their true power because that is not what civilized people do.

If the arabs, on the other hand, had the same military capacity as israel, they would have eradicated israel 20 minutes after they believed they had the capacity.

[9sublime]

You believe nukes would be necessary? You really are an armchair general aren't you? You don't have a clue as to what the military is capable of. Do you think that we are at the limit of our ability in iraq? Do you think that we are in the situation we are in because we have no other options? If the US wanted, we could flex a fraction of our true military muscle and leave no iraqi alive and no building standing in 2 weeks and never have to consider nuclear weapons.

The same is true for israel. If they really wanted all of the palestinians dead, they would be dead. Down to the last one. They have 21 squadrons of the most advanced fighters and bombers available. Not to mention the helicopter squadrons. One squadron of fighters, or bombers could remove the palestinian nusance in a day or so. They need only be willing to kill everyone in the palestinian areas. Everyone. The reason that they (the palestinians) haven't been swept away is because they (Israel) don't want to do it. Israel has the same capacity for destruction that we do and like us, they don't unleash their true power because that is not what civilized people do.

If the arabs, on the other hand, had the same military capacity as israel, they would have eradicated israel 20 minutes after they believed they had the capacity.

I think armchair general was saying the opposite about nukes.

[9sublime]

Maybe "freedom" isn't exactly what they want. Maybe they want a government that adheres to their own principles. Maybe they choose to live as they do because it is the only way to live in their home without endorsing a government that runs opposite to what they believe.


Great post. And the last thing they probably want is American Brand Freedom©

[ArmChair General]

You believe nukes would be necessary? You really are an armchair general aren't you? You don't have a clue as to what the military is capable of. Do you think that we are at the limit of our ability in iraq? Do you think that we are in the situation we are in because we have no other options? If the US wanted, we could flex a fraction of our true military muscle and leave no iraqi alive and no building standing in 2 weeks and never have to consider nuclear weapons.

Ooh look folks, a wannabe war nerd. (Cackles evilly).

Theres a few ways for us to win in Iraq. None of these ways are noble, or pretty, not the stuff you want on your resume. And some are very risky, too So try them at your own risk.

The obvious solution is genocide. I've mentioned it before, even predicted it'll come back into fashion, because what we've got now is a huge gap between the military force a superpower has and what it's actually ready to use. We've got a problem in the Sunni Triangle, and we're fighting it with mid-20th century weapons, armor and cannon and air strikes. Sure, it's much better armor, cannon and air support than we had in 1944, but we're talking little refinements of old weapons. Cannon have been around for 600 years! A 25mm chain cannon is just a much smaller, faster, more accurate version of the humongous, sloppy tubes that blasted the walls of Constantinople in 1453.

Which brings me to the weapons that we WON'T use: the NBC network. "Nuclear Biological Chemical". Just make sure you're upwind when you open the bag, and try not to inhale much for, oh, let's say the rest of your life. If we were willing to use these big dawgs, Ramadi would be as quiet as a retirement community on Halloween.

Of course there are solid reasons to think twice before ripping that bag'o'spores open, like the fact that it's hard to control who dies. Anthrax isn't biased; it'll kill a Shia as easily as a Sunni. And you do sort of concede the moral high ground if you bring in the crop dusters, I guess. I'm not much on high ground myself, but it seems to matter a lot to other folks.

Chemicals are softies compared to bioweapons, because they can't generate one of those Stephen King scenarios that brings world population down to K-Fed album sales numbers. They're nice simple weapons: shell pops open, lethal chem slithers downwind like Pepe LePeu's perfume, everybody dies one horrible way or another, and a few miles further downwind it's just a funny smell, a few athsamatics flopping over. But it wouldn't look good, taking the Formula 409 approach to cleaning up Iraq, because, you, Addam-Say already did that to the Urds-Kay, and we kind of made a big freakin' deal about it, and we love those Kurds now.

It's just one fuss after another, once you start playing genocide, worse than a Mexican-Okie wedding. That's why we end up with good ol' nukes. Nukes are, no question, the class of the hit-man world. You don't have to wonder if a nuke is going to start a pandemic that leaves silverfish as the dominant species on the planet. You don't have to get bashed with Saddam comparisons like if you used chem weapons, because if there's one thing this lame-ass war has proved, it's that Saddam never had any nukes, wasn't close to having 'em, would've shrieked and run like a girl if you'd handed 'em to him. Nobody could say we were just like Saddam if we sanitized the Triangle with nukes.

You think things disappear in the Bermuda Triangle? Just watch how everything taller than a scorpion vanishes in the Sunni Triangle, once we get those high-school compasses out and start drawing little red circles around every habited area from Kirkuk to Karbala, Tal Afar to Najaf. Nukes solve the problem fast - very fast - and clean - well, pretty clean. A few years ago we'd have had a much bigger problem nuking Sunni Iraq, because the sneaky bastards had all these mixed neighborhoods - you know, the ones MSM correspondents loved to mourn the passing of. Well, if you think about it those ethnic-cleansing squads have solved the problem for our megatonnage-management team, because there are no more mixed neighborhoods in Iraq. No need to worry about vaporizing Shia families along with their Sunni neighbors - not that I personally would mind much, but I'm supposed to pretend I do. Nope, no worries, because the ash that would float around the stratosphere after we zapped the Triangle would be 99% Pure Sunni.

Getting carried away here, so I better move on to other CI methods, suitable for children and Democrats. There are three that I know of: targeted assassination, bribery and starting a civil war between insurgent factions. They've all been used successfully; they've all failed too, and sometimes with real Frankenstein results.

Simplest and safest is bribery. I don't know why we don't do it more often. Almost makes me believe the guys running things are secret war nerds themselves, because otherwise they'd do bribery as a way of bringing down "rogue states" all the time. Just do the math. Right now, the official cost of Iraq is around $500 billion. Suppose we'd just bombed Iraq with dollars; we'd be the heroes of the world, and every family in Iraq would be like $90,000 richer. That would make Iraq one of the richest countries in the world. I guarantee you those greedy bastards would find better things to do with their time than drill holes in each others' heads with power drills.

And along the way, Saddam would have been overthrown in a few seconds, like the first time he tried to tell a young Baghdad blood he couldn't drive his new convertible into the country.

The Iraqis were never going to revolt for democracy - I mean, be honest, who would?but a new car? Boom, ol' Soddom is a hood emblem, and Uday and Qusay are seat covers. Then, when every Iraqi had a car, all we'd have to do is let them run out of gas and say, with our feet up on the table, "So...y'say you need some oil refined, huh? Let's make a deal." Piece of low-sulfur hi-octane cake.

You don't want to give those Baghdadis all the cash? Well, kinda late to figure that out, but OK, there are still ways. One slow, bloody; the other fast, risky, also bloody. The slow bloody way is targeted assassinations by mixed US-local kill teams. We did it in Nam and it worked tactically, wiped out the VC networks in many provinces, but couldn't fix the huge sucking black hole where our strategy was supposed to be. In other words, we hosed the VC with those Phoenix teams but that didn't matter when NVA armored columns rolled in a few years later.

Since the Nam case ended so sucky for us, the NeoCons are trotting out El Salvador, where Reagan's guys did a very good job of wiping out the leadership of the local communist insurgency. What I always admired most about it was it was done so quietly. You never heard about it back then, in the Cheers era, unless something really dumb went wrong, like killing those four nuns. It was a good operation, but let's be real here: El Salvador had a population of four million people, and the insurgency was run by a tiny clique of middle-class commies. When they were killed off, the rest of the people, the campesinos/Indios, went back to their old masters.

The Sunni Iraqis are not shuffling little Indio serfs. They're used to killing, they like it, we can't "selectively" kill their leaders because they don't have any beyond neighborhood level.

Other examples of successful CI, like the Brits against Chinese commies in Malaysia in the 1950s, are a lot more like El Salvador than Baghdad: small groups (ethnic Chinese in Malay territory) with nothing but an ideology to keep up their morale. Ideology, compared to tribal loyalties like we're facing in Iraq, is weak stuff, soymilk compared to Jagermeister. Commies didn't strap on suicide vests like the Jihadis do. We're up against a clan, a big old clan that will fight to the last dummy. Taking out the leadership just won't do it.

That leaves maybe the best, and also the riskiest CI strategy: giving the insurgency enough rope to hang itself with an endless civil war. I wish I had time to go into details, but basically what you do is identify the weak element among the insurgent leadership, strengthen it vs. the hardliners (and here's where having a good assassination squad or two can help, by wiping out the most effective hardline commanders) and then force the weak faction to sign a treaty with you.

It's a sure thing that the hardliners won't accept the deal, but it's just as sure the moderates won't give up power, because (a) they like it, and (b) they don't want to be tortured to death along with their entire families. So booya! You've got a nice civil war going between what used to be comrades in insurgency, and you can play one faction against the other, keeping them both weak. You can't stay in open power as the foreign occupier, but you can take a terrible revenge, because this kind of war is one long massacre, neighbor vs. neighbor. Big sales for Black & Decker reps, as well as your leading makers of rope, soldering irons, hacksaws and other devices for reeducating pesky folks who used to park in your driveway.

The classic success-story for this kind of CI strategy was by Britain vs. the IRA in the early 1920s. The Micks had basically forced Brit CI forces out of most of the rural areas and were using hit teams, like the VC "sparrow teams," to take out officials and informers in the cities. The Brits offered to make a deal with Michael Collins, who ran the IRA's urban campaigns, and got him to sign a treaty they knew the hardliners wouldn't accept. Worked like a charm; the IRA killed Collins, its best strategist, and the Irish settled back for decades of blaming each other, and the Brits never had to deal with more than nuisance campaigns until Ulster blew up in the late 60s.

[ArmChair General]

The Israelis tried to do exactly the same thing by ceding Gaza and bits of the West Bank to the PLO. They had Hamas waiting, way tougher and younger than Fatah, and hoped the Pals would duke it out - the old, weak Arafat cronies vs. the bloods from Hamas. The reason they knew Hamas was in the mood to go to the mattress is that it was the Israeli secret services that created Hamas in the first place.

See, that's the problem though: you set up two insurgent factions at each other's throats and you're likely to be running a tournament, with the meanest and most determined bastards winning. And that's not who you want for neighbors. The Israelis had some early successes sparking feuds between Palestinian factions. It's not exactly rocket science getting Arabs at each others' throats. The hard part, and the part where the Israelis lost their nerve, is staying out of the way long enough to let the puppet government you've set up get strong enough to take on the hardliners in a really big, bloody civil war. In Ireland, the Brits gave Collins, a guy they hated like poison, not just their backing, but heavy artillery. Now that, is discipline. And sure enough, Collins' forces couldn't wait till the guns were offloaded to start bombarding Dublin neighborhoods where their hardline enemies were holed up.

The Israelis couldn't stay out of the little Palestinian pockets they'd handed over to the PLO, because some Hamas or Islamic Jihad kid would blow himself up in a Tel Aviv deli and the public would demand that the IAF go blast some Pal refugee camp. It made the public happy, but then the public, any public, is a moron. And in the long run, it meant that the Pals never stopped having some new Israeli raid to be mad about, so they couldn't get around to the next step of hating each other enough to get a decent civil war going.

So yeah, this is a cool, clever strategy but I don't give anybody enough credit for sheer cold-blooded smarts to do it except the Brits. And I mean the old Brits, not these poor saps today who tagged along with Dubya for the ride to Baghdad.

Not even those old-school Brits could do it now, in Iraq. Because whereas the 1920-vintage IRA had a fairly disciplined leadership to play games with, we've got -- who? -- to talk to in Iraq. You'd be better off trying to divide and conquer the roaches in your kitchen. Nobody runs the insurgency, and nobody really runs the Shia militias either, not at national level. Sadr? He's their poster boy as long as he mouths off the way the hardliners want, but he'll go the way of Sistani if he tries to curb the boys' enthusiasm. They don't need help. They're having the time of their lives. It's not so much fun for the other focus groups, like women and men over 25 but for Iraqi boys from 15-25, these are the Wonder Years.

The key measurement for insurgencies in all these strategies is leadership, ranging from the almost Inca-style pyramid structure of the VC/NVA to total chaos. The steeper the pyramid, the more room you have to play with CI options, especially the ones involving negotiation. The more chaotic and localized the insurgents, the more you start thinking about those nice, clean red diameter-circles you get with our old friends the nukes.


The same is true for israel. If they really wanted all of the palestinians dead, they would be dead. Down to the last one. They have 21 squadrons of the most advanced fighters and bombers available. Not to mention the helicopter squadrons. One squadron of fighters, or bombers could remove the palestinian nusance in a day or so. They need only be willing to kill everyone in the palestinian areas. Everyone. The reason that they (the palestinians) haven't been swept away is because they (Israel) don't want to do it. Israel has the same capacity for destruction that we do and like us, they don't unleash their true power because that is not what civilized people do.

You mean like last year when the IDF tried to destroy Hezbollah? Oh yah, that worked out great...

If the arabs, on the other hand, had the same military capacity as israel, they would have eradicated israel 20 minutes after they believed they had the capacity.


Propably. But then I'm sure if the UN just decided to take Kansas and give it to a bunch of Muslims you probably wouldn't be too happy about it either.

[palerider]

So general, after all that, are you conceeding that you were wrong when you said:

"If you mean conventionally, well they've been trying to "sweep them away" for the last 25 years. Look how good thats working for em."

Since Israel has clearly NOT been trying to sweep the palestinians away since they could have swept them away at any time in the past 40 years.

[ArmChair General]

So general, after all that, are you conceeding that you were wrong when you said:

"If you mean conventionally, well they've been trying to "sweep them away" for the last 25 years. Look how good thats working for em."

Since Israel has clearly NOT been trying to sweep the palestinians away since they could have swept them away at any time in the past 40 years.

Clearly you need to learn how to read. Thats exactly what they've been trying to do.

[palerider]

You type a lot, but say very little. Maybe you do that to camoflage the fact that you have very little to say. The fact is that if Israel wanted the palestinians gone, they could do it in less than a week and never even have to consider chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. The area in which the palestinians live could be effectively destroyed along with every living being with no more than 9 daisy cutters.

Clearly, they have not been "trying" to eliminate the "palestinians" because they certainly have the means by which to do it in short order should they actually want to take that course.

A point based in sarcasm is no point at all and to suggest that they have been trying to do a thing for a very long time that they could do in a day or so if they actually tried is a point based in sarcasm.

[ArmChair General]

You type a lot, but say very little. Maybe you do that to camoflage the fact that you have very little to say. The fact is that if Israel wanted the palestinians gone, they could do it in less than a week and never even have to consider chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. The area in which the palestinians live could be effectively destroyed along with every living being with no more than 9 daisy cutters.

Clearly, they have not been "trying" to eliminate the "palestinians" because they certainly have the means by which to do it in short order should they actually want to take that course.

A point based in sarcasm is no point at all and to suggest that they have been trying to do a thing for a very long time that they could do in a day or so if they actually tried is a point based in sarcasm.

Clearly, you need to get some education on what is going on in the region. Next time you post, try addressing some of the points that are made instead of just flinging insults. Thats the sign of a very weak mind.

[Coyote]

You type a lot, but say very little. Maybe you do that to camoflage the fact that you have very little to say. The fact is that if Israel wanted the palestinians gone, they could do it in less than a week and never even have to consider chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. The area in which the palestinians live could be effectively destroyed along with every living being with no more than 9 daisy cutters.

Clearly, they have not been "trying" to eliminate the "palestinians" because they certainly have the means by which to do it in short order should they actually want to take that course.

A point based in sarcasm is no point at all and to suggest that they have been trying to do a thing for a very long time that they could do in a day or so if they actually tried is a point based in sarcasm.

It's perfectly possible that Israel wants the Palestinians to just disappear and it's for sure possible that they have the means to do so.

That doesn't mean that they can however since the international repercussions would be severe. So instead they are going about it another way.

There is an increasing similarity in the Israeli/Palistinian situation to the South African Apartheid situation.

For example, in 2002: The Israeli government decided to support a private law proposal that allows the allocation of land for the development of “Jews only” urban communities. The proposal is designed to bypass earlier supreme court ruling on the subject. Previously, the Israeli supreme court ruled that the state cannot discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens in matters of land allocation for housing. The court accepted the appeal of an Arab-Israeli couple that requested to be accepted into the urban community “Katzir” that was founded by the Jewish Agency.

In a response to the above decision, KM Haim Drukman of the Mafdal party, drafted a law proposition that will allow the Jewish Agency and the governmental “land administrate” to bypass the supreme court’s ruling. The proposition allows allocation of land for the development of urban communities restricted for Jews only.

[ArmChair General]

It's perfectly possible that Israel wants the Palestinians to just disappear and it's for sure possible that they have the means to do so.

That doesn't mean that they can however since the international repercussions would be severe. So instead they are going about it another way.

There is an increasing similarity in the Israeli/Palistinian situation to the South African Apartheid situation.

For example, in 2002: The Israeli government decided to support a private law proposal that allows the allocation of land for the development of “Jews only” urban communities. The proposal is designed to bypass earlier supreme court ruling on the subject. Previously, the Israeli supreme court ruled that the state cannot discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens in matters of land allocation for housing. The court accepted the appeal of an Arab-Israeli couple that requested to be accepted into the urban community “Katzir” that was founded by the Jewish Agency.

In a response to the above decision, KM Haim Drukman of the Mafdal party, drafted a law proposition that will allow the Jewish Agency and the governmental “land administrate” to bypass the supreme court’s ruling. The proposition allows allocation of land for the development of urban communities restricted for Jews only.

Absolutely right. Its all about Demographics. Its a slow Ethnic Cleansing. For four decades, Israel has pushed to build and expand Jewish neighborhoods, while restricting the growth in Arab parts.

I can’t imagine the vitriol that would be packaged as journalism if some southern US state were to, say, subsidize the construction of white neighborhoods and yet refuse permits for private building in overcrowded black neighborhoods.

[Coyote]

Absolutely right. Its all about Demographics. Its a slow Ethnic Cleansing. For four decades, Israel has pushed to build and expand Jewish neighborhoods, while restricting the growth in Arab parts.

I can’t imagine the vitriol that would be packaged as journalism if some southern US state were to, say, subsidize the construction of white neighborhoods and yet refuse permits for private building in overcrowded black neighborhoods.

Exactly. As another example Palestinians are routinely denied building permits in Jeruselum - permits that are regularly given Jewish citizens.

[palerider]

Clearly, you need to get some education on what is going on in the region. Next time you post, try addressing some of the points that are made instead of just flinging insults. Thats the sign of a very weak mind.

The only insults hurled around here are from you and I agree that hurling insult is the sign of a weak mind.

In case you are not able to remember the insults you have hurled, let me remind you with just a few of the many:

"Clearly you need to learn how to read. "

"Ooh look folks, a wannabe war nerd. (Cackles evilly)."

"palerider, you make me puke."

[palerider]

Exactly. As another example Palestinians are routinely denied building permits in Jeruselum - permits that are regularly given Jewish citizens.


So you are saying that you don't like it when jews use the same sort of tactics that arabs have been using for centuries?

[9sublime]

For centuries? I didn't realise they had strict building regulations back in the 1600's.

[ArmChair General]

The only insults hurled around here are from you and I agree that hurling insult is the sign of a weak mind.

In case you are not able to remember the insults you have hurled, let me remind you with just a few of the many:

"Clearly you need to learn how to read. "

"Ooh look folks, a wannabe war nerd. (Cackles evilly)."

"palerider, you make me puke."

Ooh, I bet those made you cry too. lol

[9sublime]

Palerider, they are not really insults, and you pointing them out and trying to be the perfect forum member only breaks down the discussion more.

[Kelly]

Sorry it has taken so long to add a comment to the topic I posted. Ok Palerider:
1. The Israelis are committing ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians just like Hitler tried to do to the Jews. I think Arm Chair General pretty much cleared that up for all of us, as well as the "building permit" thing that Coyote mentioned. They obviously couldn't use gas chambers, but they ARE trying to replace the area's demographic and result to killing innocent people to accomplish their means. Just because the IDF uses more sophisticated weaponry does not mean they're any better than Jihadis. Blasting an entire neighborhood of innocent people with American-made Apache helicopters just because you 'think' a terror suspect is there is just as completely worthless and low-down as blowing yourself up in a Starbucks.
2. Answer the question, don't beat around the bush! Why is it every time anyone criticizes the genocide, or 'retaliations' as you call it, they eventually become accused of being anti-semitic when the pro-Israeli side of the argument gets backed into a corner (because you can't polish a turd-'turd' being Israel's actions, not Israel itself). 3. Israel is a rogue state. It has NO respect for any other nation except a (probably fake) respect for the U.S. Haven't you ever followed any U.N. meeting involving Israel? They always get up and walk out like spoiled children when members of the Security Council tell them things they don't like--and the U.S. always follows. Israel is like the 'skinny kid on the block' who will get his big brother(U.S.) to bully you if you don't let him have his way.
4. Asked them for anything? Why haven't they helped us in this stupid war? They only tried to take advantage of the situation with their miserable attempt at the Lebanese land grab. Why aren't they in Iraq? Why don't they take our wounded soldiers into their hospitals? Where were they in the first Gulf War? Israel is NO ally of the United States! What about that U.S. (really Israeli) sailor they just convicted for spying on us and giving the IDF classified info on our nuclear submarines? Don't think for a second that Israel is any true friend of the U.S.! They'd abandon us (well..at least all of the Gentiles in America) in a heartbeat if it would further their own agenda.
5. Oh, yes there IS a Constitutional separation of church and state--the First Amendment. By granting and enforcing freedom to all religious practice, the U.S. government can't interfere with religious organizations--that includes supporting a particular religious organization. Sure, religious organizations lobby the government, but there IS a constitutional separation of church and state. Why do you think those freaks are so pissed that their kids can't pray in school? If you teach kids Protestant Creationism, you'd be going against the Catholic notion that God created us by the method of evolution. Hopefully this example can help you see the Constitutional separation of church and state.
6. I was not saying that I wanted the U.S. to administer foreign policy based on Torah. I was asking why Israel would have any foreign alliances. You should actually READ things before you form opinions about them!!! This question has nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy. I'm asking why, from the Israeli perspective, would Israel have any foreign alliances considering the fact that basically Jewish Law prohibits it.
The questions I asked ARE serious questions. You just get bogged down by semantics Palerider. You obviously are extremely biased about Israel and try to pick apart the details of my statements because you don't like the obvious truth. Don't tell me that my position is based on sarcasm and exaggeration! My position is based on fact. Israel murders innocent Palestinians, it is committing ethnic cleansing, it has never sacrificed anything to help the United States, and it has no regard for the opinions of other nations in regard to its foreign policy. YOUR position is the inaccurate position. Your position is not only based on exaggeration and sarcasm, but on blindness, spinning the truth, and basically being a blockhead. I HAVE asked serious questions (why else have you engaged in this discussion like you have?). Now, why don't YOU give some serious ANSWERS instead of spewing empty rhetoric and nitpicking technicalities (which, by the way, you are wrong about).

[TheWaffle]

Sorry it has taken so long to add a comment to the topic I posted. Ok Palerider:
1. The Israelis are committing ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians just like Hitler tried to do to the Jews. I think Arm Chair General pretty much cleared that up for all of us, as well as the "building permit" thing that Coyote mentioned. They obviously couldn't use gas chambers, but they ARE trying to replace the area's demographic and result to killing innocent people to accomplish their means. Just because the IDF uses more sophisticated weaponry does not mean they're any better than Jihadis. Blasting an entire neighborhood of innocent people with American-made Apache helicopters just because you 'think' a terror suspect is there is just as completely worthless and low-down as blowing yourself up in a Starbucks. 2. Answer the question, don't beat around the bush! Why is it every time anyone criticizes the genocide, or 'retaliations' as you call it, they eventually become accused of being anti-semetic when the pro-israeli side of the argument gets backed into a corner (because you can't polish a turd-'turd' being Israel's actions, not Israel itself). 3. Israel is a rogue state. It has NO respect for any other nation except a (probably fake) respect for the U.S. Haven't you ever followed any U.N. meeting involving Israel? They always get up and walk out like spoiled children when members of the Security Council tell them things they don't like--and the U.S. always follows. Israel is like the 'skinny kid on the block' who will get his big brother(U.S.) to bully you if you don't let him have his way. 4. Asked them for anything? Why haven't they helped us in this stupid war? They only tried to take advantage of the situation with their miserable attempt at the Lebanese land grab. Why aren't they in Iraq. Why don't they take our wounded soldiers into their hospitals? Where were they in the first Gulf War. Israel is NO ally of the United States! What about that U.S. sailor they just convicted for spying on us and giving the IDF classified info on our nuclear submarines? Don't think for a second that Israel is any true friend of the U.S.! They'd abandon us (well..at least all of the Gentiles in America) in a heartbeat if it would further their own agenda. Oh, yes there IS a Constitutional separation of church and state. The First Amendment. By granting and enforcing freedom to all religious practice, the U.S. government can't interfere with religious organizations--that includes supporting a particular religious organization. Sure, religious organizations lobby the government, but there IS a constitutional separation of church and state. Why do you think those freaks are so pissed that their kids can't pray in school? If you teach kids Protestant Creationism, you'd be going against the Catholic notion that God created us by the method of evolution. Hopefully this example can help you see the Constitutional separation of church and state. 6. I was not saying that I wanted the U.S. to administer foreign policy based on Torah. I was asking why Israel would have any foreign alliances. This question has nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy. I'm asking why, from the Israeli perspective, would Israel have any foreign alliances considering the fact that basically Jewish Law prohibits it. The questions I asked ARE serious questions. You just get bogged down by semantics Palerider. You obviously are extremely biased about Israel and try to pick apart the details of my statements because you don't like the obvious truth. Don't tell me that my position is based on sarcasm and exaggeration! My position is based on fact. Israel murders innocent Palestinians, it is committing ethnic cleansing, it has never sacrificed anything to help the United States, and it has no regard for the opinions of other nations in regard to its foreign policy. YOUR position is the inaccurate position. Your position is not only based on exaggeration and sarcasm, but on blindness, spinning the truth, and basically being a blockhead. I HAVE asked serious questions (why else have you engaged in this discussion like you have?). Now, why don't YOU give some serious ANSWERS instead of nitpicking technicalities (which, by the way, you are wrong about) like some sort of bottom-feeder.

I hope you realize exactly how much credibility you lose in comparing the Israeli and Palestinian situation to the Holocaust. Israel has willingly pulled out of the Palestinian lands that they have held for years. Israel forced its own people out of their homes to give the Palestinians back their homeland. Whole segments of the border fence have been redesigned because of the qualm of one Palestinian farmer or another. The Israelis have justification in their strikes. Missiles rain down on the homes of their people and then they blow up the launch site. The Lebanese government is full of **** when they say that they can't stop the terrorists in their own country. It's not hard to find them when they're launching rockets out of hotel windows.

You want to know why Israel isn't part of the Iraq war? Look at how we look after starting this war. Britain's Prime Minister is stepping down and his nation played a minor role. Can you imagine what would happen if Israel stepped in. First of all their available forces would be only symbolically helpful, but the Middle East would see it as Israel trying grab up more land. Just the same way they see us having invaded for no reason. In Lebanon they had clear purpose as they were being fired upon daily. I like how we are so incredulous that no one will help us with the war after alienating others and seeing how little support there was from the start.

How can you accuse Israel of being so selfish when time after time it has been provoked into wars, destroyed the opposition, and then in the end returned the land that they shed blood to secure.

[9sublime]

Apart from the holocaust/ethnic cleansing part every other point is pretty much true to be honest.

[Kelly]

Waffle, the Palestinians have been systematically rounded up, forced into the Gaza Strip and West Bank (economic slums), and murdered. Yes, some of it was out of self-defense on Israel's part, but we've all seen evidence that far more innocent Palestinians are killed that guilty ones. What ever happens to the Israelis that kill innocent Palestinians? What ever happened to the Israeli who bulldozed the American girl to death? There's your proof! It is ethnic cleansing any way you word it or look at it. When people get all sensitive about comparing Israel's actions towards the Palestinians to the Nazis, they are placing more importance on the past than on the present. Yes, the Holocaust was probably the most awful thing to ever happen in the history of this world, but considering that it did happen, why in the hell would so many of the Jews that subsequently went to Israel start participating in ethnic cleansing, even if it is on a smaller scale than the Holocaust? Sure, I loose some credibility when I make the comparison...to people who have already made up their minds any way about Israel/Palestine. The point is: Israel has committed ethnic cleansing after many of its constituents endured the same evils in the Holocaust--like it or not, it's the truth. Giving back a few town home sites doesn't make it any better. Plus, they might rerout their racial wall, but there still IS a wall! That's the point. About Lebanon, that fiasco started because an Israeli tank gunner (and I believe another soldier) was kidnapped in retaliation for some Israeli jerk firing off artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason. Rockets were not fired from Lebanon until Israel invaded. Sure Israel was pissed about their kidnapped soldiers, but they had ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to invade Lebanon like that and devistate its infrastructure after it had finally became some what of a peaceful place. Just for two non-civilian lives. I mean there's your proof of Israel's racist way. They think two of their boys are more important than an entire country of people. Israel was the real terrorist in Lebanon. If you still think Israel was justified in its invasion of Lebanon, you would have to agree that the U.S. should invade Israel and destroy its infrastructure because an Israeli grunt ran over an American girl with a bulldozer (she was not even a member of the armed forces--just a civilian). I totally agree with you about us being incredulous and alienating others and wondering why nobody helps us in this war. However, we have alienated others to often support Israel's actions and Israel has not even offered to help us with military, supplies, or even a staging ground.

[Truth-Bringer]

I hope you realize exactly how much credibility you lose in comparing the Israeli and Palestinian situation to the Holocaust.

How about comparing the genocides committed by the Hebrews in the Old Testament to the Holocaust? I don't think even the Nazis butchered infants.

[9sublime]

I'm pretty sure the Nazis butchered children too, they did everything else.

[vyo476]

How about comparing the genocides committed by the Hebrews in the Old Testament to the Holocaust? I don't think even the Nazis butchered infants.

A passage from Eli Wiesel's memoir, Night:

Not far from us, flames were leaping from a ditch, gigantic flames. They were burning something. A lorry drew up to the pit and delivered its load - little children. Babies! Yes, I saw it - saw it with my own eyes...those children in the flames. (32)

So yes...the Nazis did butcher children too.

[TheWaffle]

How about comparing the genocides committed by the Hebrews in the Old Testament to the Holocaust? I don't think even the Nazis butchered infants.

Are you serious right now? Are we going to start getting sore about incidents from three thousand years ago?

1. How ignorant are you to believe the Nazis did not kill infants? They ransacked the ghettos and threw the sick and children from the windows onto the pavement below. They ran unspeakable science experiments on Jewish Children.

2. If you are really going to come out and talk about Hebrews being representative of today's Israel then let's start by taking a look at the world's most prevalent mass murderers...Christians. Oh yes, how about how the Crusaders raped and pillaged Constantinople and slaughtered the "infidels." How about the massacre of the Hugenots in France. Let's go and talk about all the ethnic cleansing in Africa, most of them in Christian nations.

I gotta say Truth-Bringer I usually respect your opinion but here you're just being ridiculous. Saying we still bear the burden of events from three thousand years ago is like saying that everyone should hate the Italians because back in 9 AD they killed some Germans. It is other people who bring up the Holocaust, (which by the way clearly proved the need for an Jewish state).

[TheWaffle]

Waffle, the Palestinians have been systematically rounded up, forced into the Gaza Strip and West Bank (economic slums), and murdered. Yes, some of it was out of self-defense on Israel's part, but we've all seen evidence that far more innocent Palestinians are killed that guilty ones. What ever happens to the Israelis that kill innocent Palestinians? What ever happened to the Israeli who bulldozed the American girl to death? There's your proof! It is ethnic cleansing any way you word it or look at it. When people get all sensitive about comparing Israel's actions towards the Palestinians to the Nazis, they are placing more importance on the past than on the present. Yes, the Holocaust was probably the most awful thing to ever happen in the history of this world, but considering that it did happen, why in the hell would so many of the Jews that subsequently went to Israel start participating in ethnic cleansing, even if it is on a smaller scale than the Holocaust? Sure, I loose some credibility when I make the comparison...to people who have already made up their minds any way about Israel/Palestine. The point is: Israel has committed ethnic cleansing after many of its constituents endured the same evils in the Holocaust--like it or not, it's the truth. Giving back a few town home sites doesn't make it any better. Plus, they might rerout their racial wall, but there still IS a wall! That's the point. About Lebanon, that fiasco started because an Israeli tank gunner (and I believe another soldier) was kidnapped in retaliation for some Israeli jerk firing off artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason. Rockets were not fired from Lebanon until Israel invaded. Sure Israel was pissed about their kidnapped soldiers, but they had ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to invade Lebanon like that and devistate its infrastructure after it had finally became some what of a peaceful place. Just for two non-civilian lives. I mean there's your proof of Israel's racist way. They think two of their boys are more important than an entire country of people. Israel was the real terrorist in Lebanon. If you still think Israel was justified in its invasion of Lebanon, you would have to agree that the U.S. should invade Israel and destroy its infrastructure because an Israeli grunt ran over an American girl with a bulldozer (she was not even a member of the armed forces--just a civilian). I totally agree with you about us being incredulous and alienating others and wondering why nobody helps us in this war. However, we have alienated others to often support Israel's actions and Israel has not even offered to help us with military, supplies, or even a staging ground.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm

Number 1. Get your god damn facts straight. Israel had not stepped one foot into Lebanon before those Katusha Rockets hit. The raid and rocket attacks took place on July 12th 2006. Israel began military action July 13th.

Also Hezbollah in the same attack where it abducted the soldiers it had killed three other soldiers. That is a direct act of war. And this terrorist organization has solid representation in the Lebanese government. How can you say that Israel was not completely justified in their actions? Something had to be done. No nation will simply allow a foreign military to conduct raids and kidnappings and artillery strikes on its soil without serious repercussions.

I just don't understand what you want. You say that Israel giving back the Palestinian lands is not enough? You say that establishing a Palestinian government is not enough. And apparently you deny that Israel gives the Palestinians full rights...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#b

Palestinians have full voting rights and some even hold office. In fact the only real difference between the Jewish citizens and non-Jews, as pointed out in this link above, is that the Jewish citizens have compulsory military service.

[Kelly]

The conflict started because Israel fired artillery into Lebanon for no apparent reason--that's what I meant when I said 'invaded.' Poor choice of words on my part, I'll admit. Wikipedia states that the conflict started when Lebanon fired rockets, but this is not accurate as the rockets/kidnapping were in retaliation for the artillery. You're right when you say no nation will allow artillery strikes, etc. without serious repercussions. That's exactly why Hezbolah fired off the rockets and did the kidnappings (which I think is worthless by the way). My point here is that Israel always gets away with doing horrible things like dropping cluster bombs over Lebanese neighborhoods. Hezbolah is not the Lebanese government although they see themselves that way and decided to retaliate. But, this had nothing to do with the Lebanese citizens that got zapped by Israeli cluster bombs, and Israel knew it. It was horrible of Israel to keep hitting the people of Lebanon, expecting them to put pressure on the government to root out Hezbolah. This was completely unfair a lot of innocent people. Sure something had to be done...Israel should not act like a bunch of arrogant idiots--firing artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason, firing at a German peacekeeping warship, etc. Israel needs to be put in its proper place as does Hezbolah. If you are curious about what I want, I want Israel to stop its arrogance and racism. I want Israel to admit that it has been wrong and that its people are no better than the rest of us. I want Israel to get the f*** out of Washington DC. I want Israel to draw upon the vast amount of brain power it has as far as medicine and technology go to help the World instead of just fellow Jews. Really, I'm speaking about the conservatives there, not every Israeli. They only 'symbolically' give back land as part of a 'show,' but just go and see any check point over there and how the soldiers treat Palestinians. Sure they'll allow a few kiss-ass ethnic Palestinians to grab a seat or two in the Knesset. But fact of it all is is that Israel is a racist regime that has waged war on an innocent population and doesn't have any more business being there than any other Christian or Muslim. Also, I don't think I said establishing a Palestinian government is not enough. That's probably the only chance at peace.

[ArmChair General]

You gotta have some respect for Hezbollah. Nasrullah may look like a fat social studies teacher who needs a shave, but you don't claw your way to the top of a bloody world like that one without brains. The men who run Hezbollah attacked because they finally figured out that they literally cannot lose. The IDF can never expel Hezbollah from South Lebanon, because it's a genuine mass movement, as committed and crazy at the roots as at the top. (As opposed to Arafat's PLO, which they could and did expel from Lebanon because it was topheavy, corrupt and cowardly.) If Israel comes down hard on the Lebanese, another generation learns to hate the Jews down south and dream of bloody revenge. If Israel holds off, then Hezbollah becomes the one victorious Arab/Muslim force in the world, darling of every little nine-year-old Jihadi in Jakarta and Khartoum. If Israel retaliates by blasting every target of value in Lebanon, every TV tower and shopping mall and freeway...well, that's the beauty of the plan: the Shia are the poorest of the poor. They don't own any of that **** anyway. They sit back and laugh watching their neighbors' stuff that they've envied all their lives get blown away, and it's the Israelis who get the blame.

So call'em crazy if it makes you feel better, but don't call'em stupid. Better yet, get used to calling'em "Sir."

Perhaps the most ironic part, is that once again, Hezbollah was just a reaction to the brutal/bloody Israeli occupation of Lebanon.

People just don't learn.

[Castle]

The conflict started because Israel fired artillery into Lebanon for no apparent reason--that's what I meant when I said 'invaded.' Poor choice of words on my part, I'll admit. Wikipedia states that the conflict started when Lebanon fired rockets, but this is not accurate as the rockets/kidnapping were in retaliation for the artillery. You're right when you say no nation will allow artillery strikes, etc. without serious repercussions. That's exactly why Hezbolah fired off the rockets and did the kidnappings (which I think is worthless by the way). My point here is that Israel always gets away with doing horrible things like dropping cluster bombs over Lebanese neighborhoods. Hezbolah is not the Lebanese government although they see themselves that way and decided to retaliate. But, this had nothing to do with the Lebanese citizens that got zapped by Israeli cluster bombs, and Israel knew it. It was horrible of Israel to keep hitting the people of Lebanon, expecting them to put pressure on the government to root out Hezbolah. This was completely unfair a lot of innocent people. Sure something had to be done...Israel should not act like a bunch of arrogant idiots--firing artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason, firing at a German peacekeeping warship, etc. Israel needs to be put in its proper place as does Hezbolah. If you are curious about what I want, I want Israel to stop its arrogance and racism. I want Israel to admit that it has been wrong and that its people are no better than the rest of us. I want Israel to get the f*** out of Washington DC. I want Israel to draw upon the vast amount of brain power it has as far as medicine and technology go to help the World instead of just fellow Jews. Really, I'm speaking about the conservatives there, not every Israeli. They only 'symbolically' give back land as part of a 'show,' but just go and see any check point over there and how the soldiers treat Palestinians. Sure they'll allow a few kiss-ass ethnic Palestinians to grab a seat or two in the Knesset. But fact of it all is is that Israel is a racist regime that has waged war on an innocent population and doesn't have any more business being there than any other Christian or Muslim. Also, I don't think I said establishing a Palestinian government is not enough. That's probably the only chance at peace.
Are you doing PR work for Hezhollah? If not, they need to hire you to minimize all the horrible things they are directly responsible for. You did a fantastic job of that here when they could be paying you big bucks for it!

-Castle

[Kelly]

Nope. Just telling the truth. Nice try.

[Rokerijdude11]

zombieism is RAMPANT in the school system its evident by the Un-Educated response of todays youth

[Truth-Bringer]

So yes...the Nazis did butcher children too.

Ok. That doesn't surprise me. But all it means is that the Hebrews did the same thing the Nazis did. And their progeny is claiming moral superiority because the Nazis did it to them.

[Truth-Bringer]

I gotta say Truth-Bringer I usually respect your opinion but here you're just being ridiculous. Saying we still bear the burden of events from three thousand years ago

Hey, I'm just telling the truth. That people who claim to be god's chosen ones butchered infants - akin to the evil of the Nazis - and yet seemingly still teach this history and believe it and wanted the same land they claim this god gave to them.

You were comparing genocides. What difference does the time frame make? A genocide is a genocide.

[ArmChair General]

Hey, I'm just telling the truth. That people who claim to be god's chosen ones butchered infants - akin to the evil of the Nazis - and yet seemingly still teach this history and believe it and wanted the same land they claim this god gave to them.

You were comparing genocides. What difference does the time frame make? A genocide is a genocide.

Damn Right.

[Castle]

Nope. Just telling the truth. Nice try.
I was simply making an observation since you clearly choose to ignore the hand that the Palestinians play in this bloodbath.

Since you're in the mood for truth, here's some more truth for you to neatly sweep under the rug. Do you remember the $10,000 checks Saddam was sending to families of Palestinian homicide bombers as incentive to keep murdering Israeli's? When Palestinians constantly detonate explosives in night clubs, bus stops and grocery stores, how do you expect Israel to respond? The savage extremist groups that poison their minds simply melt back into the Palestinian population knowing that Israel cannot respond without civilian casualties tarnishing their efforts. So then what? Should Israel simply give Hamas what it wants and destroy itself to save Hamas and the Palestinians the trouble? You might think so but I don't. Sorry.

Do you remember Waffa Samir Ibrahim Bass? I'm sure Israel does. The Palestinian woman was treated at a hospital in the southern Israeli city of Beersheba for burns and later attempted to repay them by detonating 22lbs of explosives strapped to her. Thankfully, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade member failed to murder the Israeli doctors that had previously treated her sorry @ss.

This kind of crap happens all the time yet Israel is the bad guy when it chooses to respond. I promise you Islamic extremist group leaders thank Allah every day that I am not currently the Israeli leader as I would have solved this issue long ago.

btw.... did you agree with Arafat's decision to tell Clinton to F*** himself for his efforts to bring the Pal/Israeli conflict to a peaceful solution. Of course you do so I guess I'm really asking why?

-Castle

[TheWaffle]

Hey, I'm just telling the truth. That people who claim to be god's chosen ones butchered infants - akin to the evil of the Nazis - and yet seemingly still teach this history and believe it and wanted the same land they claim this god gave to them.

You were comparing genocides. What difference does the time frame make? A genocide is a genocide.

By your logic I should still hate the Germans for the Holocaust. It's doesn't make any sense. We had a German student live with us for years I have no qualm against them. And like I said why don't we get into the countless genocides that have been carried out in the name of Christ. I don't expect Christians to bear the burden of guilt that should be borne by their ancestors, and likewise the people of Israel cannot be slandered because of actions 3000 years ago. In the exact same way I ask no apology from the German people.

I mean for God's sake, American war planes have bombed infants many times over the years. Don't try to be some moralistic preacher pointing to how if the Jews murdered children 3000 years ago then they deserve to be destroyed even though many hundreds of thousands of times whatever number they killed have been killed in the name of Christ and in the name of Allah. Why do you make a special case in blaming the Jews?

Every religion has evil at some point in its history but to infer that because it once existed then it still exists is ignorant and ridiculous. Maybe I should declare all Christian nations a slander of God's name because in Rwanda thirteen years ago one million people were killed. How about I hate the British because of their violence in India. It doesn't make any sense what you say.

Time frame does matter because things change, unless you have some warped view where ever person born after another carries all the sins of his ancestors. Then we have millions of people who are guilty because their ancestors owned slaves, or because their ancestors followed orders, or because their ancestors dropped the atomic bomb.

[ArmChair General]

By your logic I should still hate the Germans for the Holocaust. It's doesn't make any sense. We had a German student live with us for years I have no qualm against them. And like I said why don't we get into the countless genocides that have been carried out in the name of Christ. I don't expect Christians to bear the burden of guilt that should be borne by their ancestors, and likewise the people of Israel cannot be slandered because of actions 3000 years ago. In the exact same way I ask no apology from the German people.

I mean for God's sake, American war planes have bombed infants many times over the years. Don't try to be some moralistic preacher pointing to how if the Jews murdered children 3000 years ago then they deserve to be destroyed even though many hundreds of thousands of times whatever number they killed have been killed in the name of Christ and in the name of Allah. Why do you make a special case in blaming the Jews?

Every religion has evil at some point in its history but to infer that because it once existed then it still exists is ignorant and ridiculous. Maybe I should declare all Christian nations a slander of God's name because in Rwanda thirteen years ago one million people were killed. How about I hate the British because of their violence in India. It doesn't make any sense what you say.

Time frame does matter because things change, unless you have some warped view where ever person born after another carries all the sins of his ancestors. Then we have millions of people who are guilty because their ancestors owned slaves, or because their ancestors followed orders, or because their ancestors dropped the atomic bomb.

I don't think shes being moralistic, and neither am I. Shes just pointing out the obvious truth here, the Israelis, and the Pals, and the Hezzies are all pushing this **** forward. There is no innocent party here. They are all contributing to the bloodshed.

[Kelly]

Hey Castle, I see you just posted and i just happened to log on real quick. Hope you're still there.
I don't condone what the Palestinians are doing/have done as far as suicide bombings, telling Clinton to f*** off, etc. I think those things are horrible. I know I seem incredibly biased towards the Pals, but I'm really not. It's just that I feel Israel is trying to commit what we committed when we exterminated the Native Americans. The Israel/Palestine is definitely two-sided, but the Palestinians were there first. I also feel that Israel acts with race in mind and I can't stand to see that. Of course the Palestinians are racist towards Jews, but again, they were there first. The Israelis of today are immigrants mostly from Germany, Poland, and Russia. The Palestinians have been there the whole time and their land, homes, and olive and fig orchards were forcefully taken by Israel. That does not justify the killing of innocent people via suicide bombs, but the Palestinians obviously have no other means to fight back. If you study ethics and know about Double Effect, it tells us that the taking of innocent lives is justified only when an entire populations very survival is at stake. I don't really agree with thig (innocents should NEVER be killed), but it's the only reference we have to go on. That said, the very survival of the Palestinians is at stake. They've been forced into slums with very little food coming in and get hammered with apache helicopter rockets. The Israelis suffer from people blowing themselves up at Starbucks. While both scenarios are horrible, its pretty obvious that the Palestinians are much closer to extinction than the Israelis. Furthermore, in my opinion, the Israelis can stop this mess if they wouldn't be so arrogant and allow a symbiotic culture to exist among both sides. Also, about Hezbolah, I don't agree with them kidnapping or firing rockets into neighborhoods at all. But, if I had to choose sides, I would have had to pull for Hezbolah on that war last year. If a group of my friends and I went to China, popped off some rockets, kidnapped some soliders, and killed a few in the process, would China have the right to declare war on the U.S. and pummel the entire country with cluster bombs? I'm not trying to downplay what Hezbolah did, but it WAS in retaliation for Israel firing artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason whatsoever. With that said, I strongly feel that Israel had no right to pummel Lebanon like they did and I think they're worthless for it. They're way too intelligent not to realize that 99.9% of the Lebanese population they killed or displaced had nothing to do with Hezbolah. I feel that, in this case, Hezbolah were fighting for their country, although it was not wanted or requested by Lebanon and their tactics were unethical according to our standards.

[jb_1430]

The Israel/Palestine is definitely two-sided, but the Palestinians were there first.


???? The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region


The Israelis of today are immigrants mostly from Germany, Poland, and Russia. The Palestinians have been there the whole time and their land, homes, and olive and fig orchards were forcefully taken by Israel.


Actually, the majority of Israelis were born in Israel.



I'm not trying to downplay what Hezbolah did, but it WAS in retaliation for Israel firing artillery shells into Lebanon for no reason whatsoever.



????? Your perception has nothing to do with reality. Israel didnt fire shells into Lebanon before the war started. Precisely the opposite. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel for no reason other than their desire to kill Jews.
MARK

[9sublime]

???? The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region




My grandfather lived in a house the other end of the country when he was younger. He thinks its the most special place to him on earth. He wants it back. The people who live in it now do not share his viewpoint. Should he be allowed it back?

[ArmChair General]

???? The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region



Actually, the majority of Israelis were born in Israel.




????? Your perception has nothing to do with reality. Israel didnt fire shells into Lebanon before the war started. Precisely the opposite. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel for no reason other than their desire to kill Jews.
MARK

Actually, Israel violated Lebanese airspace daily, and would continually conduct raids into Lebanon, to either assassinate leaders or kidnap suspected bad guys.

If your going to make a big deal out of the one Hezzie raid into Israel, then you have to take a look at Israels actions.

Furthermore, take a look at the Clean Break Scenario. Last years attempt to destroy hezbollah had been planned for over a decade. Furthermore, the actual plans were drawn up with the help of the US military, the hezzie raid was just the pretext the Israelis needed to do what they were already going to do anyways.

[vyo476]

Ok. That doesn't surprise me. But all it means is that the Hebrews did the same thing the Nazis did. And their progeny is claiming moral superiority because the Nazis did it to them.

I know nothing about these Hebrew genocides you are discussing; I just saw your statement and thought I'd set the record straight. By the way, if you've never read Night, I'd highly recommend it. Just try not to read it on a full stomach.

[Coyote]

???? The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region



Actually, the majority of Israelis were born in Israel.




????? Your perception has nothing to do with reality. Israel didnt fire shells into Lebanon before the war started. Precisely the opposite. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel for no reason other than their desire to kill Jews.
MARK

Hezbollah held off firing rockets into Israel until well after Israel attacked them.

[vyo476]

I don't think shes being moralistic, and neither am I. Shes just pointing out the obvious truth here, the Israelis, and the Pals, and the Hezzies are all pushing this **** forward. There is no innocent party here. They are all contributing to the bloodshed.

That's probably the best summary of the Middle East possible and the one thing that so few people grasp. Why is it that everyone feels compelled to take a side on this issue when neither side very clearly deserves our full support?

[jb_1430]

Hezbollah held off firing rockets into Israel until well after Israel attacked them.

Ooooh what freakin made up BS. Hezbollah fired a barrage of rockets as a diversion from their cross border kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, that started the whole thing.
Do you make this stuff up or did you get it off the web? Got a link. MARK

[Coyote]

Ooooh what freakin made up BS. Hezbollah fired a barrage of rockets as a diversion from their cross border kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, that started the whole thing.
Do you make this stuff up or did you get it off the web? Got a link. MARK

oops - you're right, I'm wrong :D

[Coyote]

That's probably the best summary of the Middle East possible and the one thing that so few people grasp. Why is it that everyone feels compelled to take a side on this issue when neither side very clearly deserves our full support?



Exactly. There are no innocents in this.

[Kelly]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_1430
???? The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region



Actually, the majority of Israelis were born in Israel.




????? Your perception has nothing to do with reality. Israel didnt fire shells into Lebanon before the war started. Precisely the opposite. Hezbollah was firing rockets into Israel for no reason other than their desire to kill Jews.
MARK

Actually, Israel violated Lebanese airspace daily, and would continually conduct raids into Lebanon, to either assassinate leaders or kidnap suspected bad guys.

If your going to make a big deal out of the one Hezzie raid into Israel, then you have to take a look at Israels actions.

Furthermore, take a look at the Clean Break Scenario. Last years attempt to destroy hezbollah had been planned for over a decade. Furthermore, the actual plans were drawn up with the help of the US military, the hezzie raid was just the pretext the Israelis needed to do what they were already going to do anyways."
--Thank you for clarifying this ArmChair. Trust me guys. Armchair knows his history..he really know what he's talking about.

[Kelly]

"The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region"
--Oh really? I didn't realize that the first Arab didn't enter the land until 1949!



"Actually, the majority of Israelis were born in Israel."
--Maybe by now, but it wasn't that way a few years back.

[Kelly]

"The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region"
--Just because the Bible or Torah says it, doesn't mean it's true! Sure the Jews can hold it to be true to themselves, but they can't go and displace others just because their religion tells them that they used to live there a long time ago. Besides, even if it is true, I'm sure God would exile their asses right out of there for the way they've acted and screwed everything up. Besides, according to Jewish Law in the OT: It is forbidden to form alliances with foreign entities. That's why the Hebrews suffered the Second Exile. Would this law not apply to Israel being completely riliant on the U.S.? They shouldn't have alliances with the U.S. or anyone else according to the same text that tells them that they have a right to be there in the first place!!!

[jb_1430]

"The Jews have been in Israel since before the first Arab ever even entered the region"
--Just because the Bible or Torah says it, doesn't mean it's true! Sure the

The archeological artifacts found in the region "says it" is a fact. MARK

[ArmChair General]

The archeological artifacts found in the region "says it" is a fact. MARK

There hadn't been an Israeli state for over 2000 years.

[jb_1430]

Actually, Israel violated Lebanese airspace daily, and would continually conduct raids into Lebanon, to either assassinate leaders or kidnap suspected bad guys.


They WERE NOT "firing artillery shells into Lebanon", they did not violate airspace daily nor did they continually conduct raids into Lebanon. MARK

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/208/97/PDF/N0620897.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/437/22/IMG/N0643722.pdf?OpenElement

[Coyote]

The archeological artifacts found in the region "says it" is a fact. MARK

According to the U. of Pennsylvania's Musuem of Archaeology and Anthropology - there were a mixture of peoples living in "Canaan" or ancient "Israel".

The land known as Canaan was situated in the territory of the southern Levant, which today encompasses Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Jordan, and the southern portions of Syria and Lebanon. Throughout time, many names have been given to this area including Palestine, Eretz-Israel, Bilad es-Shem, the Holy Land and Djahy. The earliest known name for this area was "Canaan."

The inhabitants of Canaan were never ethnically or politically unified as a single nation. They did, however, share sufficient similarities in language and culture to be described together as "Canaanites."


In addition - there is no appreciable ethnic difference between early Israelites and other arabs - they were all Semetic people whose cultural, linguistic, and in certain cases, ancestral origins trace back to the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula. There was a lot of migration in and out of these lands. Some three centuries prior to the Hebrew occupation of Canaan, the land had been conquered by Egyptian armies and for a long time formed part of the Egyptian Empire. Even if you consider Israeli's as non-arab, surely the Egyptions were arabs and they apparently preceeded Hebrew rule of the area.

[jb_1430]

There hadn't been an Israeli state for over 2000 years.

The claim is that "the Palestinians were there first". When the last Israeli state had existed is irrelevant to that point. Even more so since there has NEVER been a Palestinian State. MARK

[Coyote]

They WERE NOT "firing artillery shells into Lebanon", they did not violate airspace daily nor did they continually conduct raids into Lebanon. MARK

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/208/97/PDF/N0620897.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/437/22/IMG/N0643722.pdf?OpenElement



Israeli provocations continue: http://www.antiwar.com/avnery/?articleid=10515

[jb_1430]

In addition - there is no appreciable ethnic difference between early Israelites and other arabs - they were all Semetic people whose cultural, linguistic, and in certain cases, ancestral origins trace back to the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula.

You are just makin this shiite up as you go along. Ill use wikipedia just because it is easier to look up. MARK


The Hittites were an ancient people who spoke an Indo-European language, and established a kingdom centered at Hattusa (Hittite URUḪattuša) in north-central Anatolia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites


The name Canaan is of obscure origins, with one possibility being the non-Semitic Hurrian

This was first applied to the lowland or classical Phoenicia, mainly Sidon, then by extension to the whole region.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#Etymology

Though ancient boundaries of such city-centered cultures fluctuated, the city of Tyre seems to have been the southernmost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

However, much new archaeological evidence has come to light, and Assyriologists generally agree now that the Amorites never engaged in a concerted invasion of the Ur III Dynasty[citation needed]. Many Amorites lived peacefully within the kingdom in small enclaves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorites

[jb_1430]

There was a lot of migration in and out of these lands. Some three centuries prior to the Hebrew occupation of Canaan, the land had been conquered by Egyptian armies and for a long time formed part of the Egyptian Empire. Even if you consider Israeli's as non-arab, surely the Egyptions were arabs and they apparently preceeded Hebrew rule of the area.

????? The Egyptians were not Arabs. They neither spoke Arabic or originated from Arabia. You are just makin this shiite up. MARK

[ArmChair General]

They WERE NOT "firing artillery shells into Lebanon", they did not violate airspace daily nor did they continually conduct raids into Lebanon. MARK

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/208/97/PDF/N0620897.pdf?OpenElement

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/437/22/IMG/N0643722.pdf?OpenElement

Who said they were firing shells into lebanon?

What were your links supposed to prove? all im getting is a blue page with this:

There is an end-user problem. If you have reached this site from a web link,
- Through your internet options, adjust your privacy settings to allow cookies or
- Check your security settings and make sure this site has not been blocked or
- You are probably using a very slow link that may not work well with this application.
Otherwise you have reached this site through unauthorized means.




As for Israel violating Lebanese Airspace almost Daily:

http://www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/pressrels/2001/sc7113.html

According to the Secretary-General’s report on the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) (document S/2001/714), the situation during the period from 23 January to 20 July 2001 has been generally stable, with the exception of ongoing tensions and breaches of the Blue Line connected with the dispute over the Shab’a Farms area. There continued to be numerous minor ground violations, those from the Israeli side largely attributable to the construction of a fence along the line. Those from the Lebanese side amounted to crossings by shepherds and occasional vehicles.

Regarding air violations, the report states that Israeli aircraft violated the line on an almost daily basis, penetrating deep into Lebanese airspace. These incursions, particularly those at low level, breaking the sound barrier over populated areas, were especially provocative and caused great anxiety to the civilian population. The report further describes several incidents, including demonstrations on the Lebanese side, exchanges of fire between Israeli soldiers and Hizbollah, and destruction of a Syrian army radar position in the Bekaa Valley.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/lebanon/2002/0730quest.htm

Israeli warplanes violate Lebanese airspace on an almost daily basis, prompting Hizbullah to fire antiaircraft rounds across the border.


http://bloggingbeirut.com/archives/1088-UN-Secretary-Generals-3rd-Report-on-Resolution-1701.html

9. I am concerned by all violations of the Blue Line, which also constitute violations of resolution 1701 (2006). Throughout the period under review, UNIFIL continued to report Israeli air violations of the Blue Line, through [Israeli military] jet and unmanned aerial vehicle over-flights. The incursions into Lebanese airspace continue on an almost daily basis. UNIFIL reported a significant increase in Israeli air violations during the month of February and the beginning of March, which on some days exceeded ten Israeli over-flights in its area of operations. The Government of Lebanon continues to protest the over-flights as a serious violation of Lebanese sovereignty and a violation of resolution 1701 (2006)

Heres some Recent:

http://qwstnevrythg.blog-city.com/israeli_warplanes_intrude_on_beirut_airspace.htm

BEIRUT: As Beirut's curfew ended at 6 a.m. Friday and Lebanese looked forward to a day of calm following Thursday's deadly clashes, Israeli forces conducted a series of overflights across Lebanon, including the capital, in what was for many a stark reminder of the summer 2006 war.

An Israeli plane was seen "circling at a low altitude" off the coast of Beirut early Friday, in violation of the terms of the cease-fire ending the war with Israel, a Lebanese Army source told The Daily Star.

This was the first time since October 30 that an Israeli plane was detected near the capital, but a spokesperson for the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFL) told The Daily Star that Israel violates Lebanese airspace south of the Litani River, where UNIFIL operates "almost every day."

[ArmChair General]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SHA502A.html

"Israel the prime suspect in Hariri's assassination",

The terrorist operation committed last evening (Monday (14 February)) in Beirut that resulted in the assassination of Rafiq Baha al-Din al-Hariri, the former prime minister of Lebanon and the architect of that country's new economy, put another twist in the blind knot of the situation in the Middle East. Those who planned, guided and executed that heinous act are hoping that they may calculate their own gains or losses within the framework of their future plans, regardless of the anxieties of the Lebanese people.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3726307.stm

Lebanon has reportedly broken a spy ring that was plotting to murder Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of militant group Hezbollah, on behalf of Israel.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3262657,00.html


Lebanon: New evidence Mossad behind assassination

Lebanese army releases statement citing new evidence that cell nabbed in Lebanon for Majzoub brothers’ assassination in May answered to Israeli intelligence agency



Theres a lot more incidents. I wont even get into all the assassinations and terrorist acts Israel has committed against the Palestinians.

[Kelly]

"The archeological artifacts found in the region "says it" is a fact. MARK"
--What artifacts? The Israelis have been digging and digging and haven't found a single item that prooves their stake in the land.

[Truth-Bringer]

By your logic I should still hate the Germans for the Holocaust. It's doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make any sense to you because you're attacking a straw man position.

[Truth-Bringer]

I know nothing about these Hebrew genocides you are discussing;

Then go read the Old Testament

[Coyote]

You are just makin this shiite up as you go along. Ill use wikipedia just because it is easier to look up. MARK

Also from Wikipedia:

Canaan (IPA pronunciation: [ˈkeɪnən], Canaanite: כנען, Hebrew: כנען , Greek: Χαναάν whence Latin Canaan; and from Hebrew, Aramaic ܟܢܥܢ, whence Arabic کنعان). Etymology from "low" applied to the coast as the "lowlands" and by extension to the neighboring region.[2] It is an ancient term for a region approximating to present-day Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, plus adjoining coastal lands and parts of Lebanon and Syria. The Hebrew Bible identifies Canaan with Lebanon — foremost with the coastal city of Sidon — but extends the "Land of Canaan" southward across Gaza to the "Brook of Egypt" and eastward to the Jordan Valley, thus including modern Israel with the Palestinian Territories. This southern area included various ethnic groups. The Amarna Letters found in Ancient Egypt mention Canaan (Akkadian: Kinaḫḫu) in connection with Gaza and other cities along the Phoenician coast and into Upper Galilee. Many earlier Egyptian sources also make mention of numerous campaigns conducted in Ka-na-na, just inside Asia.

Various Canaanite sites have been excavated by archaeologists, most notably the Canaanite town of Ugarit in modern Syria, which was rediscovered in 1928. Much of the modern knowledge about the Canaanites stems from excavation in this area. Canaanites spoke a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew, and are mentioned in the Bible, Mesopotamian and Ancient Egyptian texts. They have always normally been considered an ethnic group centered in Lebanon[1][2][verification needed] ; though some recent sources, without specifying any physical evidence, have asserted an origin on the Arabian Peninsula[3][verification needed],[4] a hypothesis that was also popular at the time of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

[Coyote]

????? The Egyptians were not Arabs. They neither spoke Arabic or originated from Arabia. You are just makin this shiite up. MARK

The Egyptions - along with the other non-Jewish inhabitants of the Middle East are commonly lumped together as "Arabs". I'm just going by popular terminology.

To be accurate - the Iranians aren't either (they're Persians), nor are the Lebonese. But people call them Arabs anyway.

The point is - the Jewish people really have no more historical claim on that land than any other group. Their only real claim is modern and while it's valid, the only way to make it just is to deal with the Palestinians in an equatable way, and return the confiscated territories.

[Truth-Bringer]

Why do you make a special case in blaming the Jews?


I'm not making a special case of blaming the Jews. I'm asking that the Jews be treated like everyone else. No one else had the U.N. create a homeland for them. Why should we feel more sorry for the Jews than for anyone else? Just because of time? Just because the holocaust was more recent than the Jews own genocide against other people? And so now they get special privileges?

[jb_1430]

The Egyptions - along with the other non-Jewish inhabitants of the Middle East are commonly lumped together as "Arabs". I'm just going by popular terminology.

To be accurate - the Iranians aren't either (they're Persians), nor are the Lebonese. But people call them Arabs anyway.

The point is - the Jewish people really have no more historical claim on that land than any other group. Their only real claim is modern and while it's valid, the only way to make it just is to deal with the Palestinians in an equatable way, and return the confiscated territories.


Nobody calls the Iranians Arabs. And the claim is that the Palestinians were there first. Simply not true. Arabs moved into Israel the same time that Islam moved into Israel, the 7th century. Jews were there LONG before that. "Popular terminology" refers to those who speak arabic as arabs. Arabic was not spoke in Israel before Hebrew was. MARK

[Kelly]

"I'm not making a special case of blaming the Jews. I'm asking that the Jews be treated like everyone else. No one else had the U.N. create a homeland for them. Why should we feel more sorry for the Jews than for anyone else? Just because of time? Just because the holocaust was more recent than the Jews own genocide against other people? And so now they get special privileges?"
--Exactly!!!

[jb_1430]

I'm not making a special case of blaming the Jews. I'm asking that the Jews be treated like everyone else. No one else had the U.N. create a homeland for them.

UN didnt create a homeland. The British abandoned their Palestinian Mandate and Israel created their own homeland in 1948. 16 years later the Palestinians declared their nation over ALL of the original British mandate but theyve never really got around to creating an actual nation, other than on paper.
MARK

[vyo476]

Then go read the Old Testament

I prefer Star Trek.

[jb_1430]

Who said they were firing shells into lebanon?

What were your links supposed to prove? all im getting is a blue page with this:

Try this link
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilDrp.htm
and go to the PDF documents reporting on july 05 to Jan 06 and the report on jan - july 06. Unifil reports to the UN.

Kelly claimed

[QUOTE]
The conflict started because Israel fired artillery into Lebanon for no apparent reason


When I disputed that claim, you chimed in


Actually, Israel violated Lebanese airspace daily, and would continually conduct raids into Lebanon, to either assassinate leaders or kidnap suspected bad guys.


Your reliance on reports from 4 years earlier isnt really relevant to what "started the conflict" in 2006. I suspect you rely upon them because the reports for 2003-2006, before the war, dont back up your claims that "Israel violated Lebanese airspace daily". Overflights during and after the war are also irrelevant to what started the conflict.

[Truth-Bringer]

UN didnt create a homeland.

The U.N. was the principle force in the attempted legitimization of the creation of the state of Israel by the Zionists.

[jb_1430]

Is this to support Kelly's assertion that what started the conflict was that Israel-


continually conduct raids into Lebanon


??? I was disputing her characterization of "continually". These three incidents dont really support the characterization. MARK




http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SHA502A.html

"Israel the prime suspect in Hariri's assassination",

[Lebanon has reportedly broken a spy ring that was plotting to murder Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of militant group Hezbollah, on behalf of Israel.

Lebanon: New evidence Mossad behind assassination[/B]

Lebanese army releases statement citing new evidence that cell nabbed in Lebanon for Majzoub brothers’ assassination in May answered to Israeli intelligence agency

Theres a lot more incidents. I wont even get into all the assassinations and terrorist acts Israel has committed against the Palestinians.

[ArmChair General]

Is this to support Kelly's assertion that what started the conflict was that Israel-



??? I was disputing her characterization of "continually". These three incidents dont really support the characterization. MARK

I was the first person to make this assertion. Maybe you missed my post.
http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8262&postcount=60

There are many many more incidents involving ISrael conducting terroristic operations inside of Lebanon. Ive shown you three, if your interested in the truth, I recommend Google.