ISLAM is EVIL !

[jb_1430]

I've seen this one used by christians to justify killing:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

???? Its a parable about a king???? Care to share with us where you have "seen" christians using this verse to justify killing?..... I didnt think so.
MARK

[vyo476]

I've seen this one used by christians to justify killing:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

There's this one too:

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

[jb_1430]

There's this one too:

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

That says souls will be destroyed "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord". How does somebody use that verse to kill somebody now, before jesus returns? If Jesus comes back and Christians start running around destroying souls, THEN you might have a point.
Care to share with us where you have "seen" christians using this verse to justify killing?..... I didnt think so.
MARK

[OPGhostdog]

[QUOTE=jb_1430;10260]Amusing that none of you can grasp that "Islam" doesnt mean "all Muslims".

However the American society today has classified ALL MUSLIMS
as being insane, and terrorist. So don't give me that crap, and after
reading your posts..it seems like you don't know what side to be on
jb_1430.

General I agree with the below post to jb_1430, and jb is the one
who seems confuse. Originally Posted by ArmChair General
no im not confused, you blame it on Islam.
When its obvious that they cheared because we're arming the
people who are killing them on a daily basis. It has nothing to
do with Islam.

General read the above quote from jb concerning all muslims.
JB..who said it does include ALL MUSLIMS? Like I said since
9-11 All Muslims have been blamed. Which I do not think that
blaming All Muslims is right thing to do .

Since you seem to be telling others that they are confused.
Why don't you take a good look at yourself before calling
someone confused. How would you like it if I discriminated
against your religious faith? By saying all jews are thiefs.
Or All Catholics is loonies praying to a statue.

The first thing you would say is...not all jews thiefs, and
all Catholics isn't loonies. So get real jb_1430 before you try
attacking something that you are not fully aware of.

[OPGhostdog]

The thread is strictly about Middle East Politics, and jb_1430
you have turned the thread into a bible discussion thread.
Since the thread topic is ....Islam is Evil stay focus on the topic.
We can make the points be clear without debating the Bible or
Quran.

This is one of the main problems with many people in the world
today. They are always trying to convence others to see things
their way, and when someone don't go along with the program
its a different ballgame.

Myself as a Muslim I am waiting to read about some real proof
that Islam is evil, and if its so evil that means other faiths can
be considered evil also.

[DemocratLupis]

Jb??? jeb bush??? gene simmons??? mark??? whoever you're LEAVE and don't come back you're on another forum and I think it's mark not Mark and it's definantly not MARK it's mark mArc...


LEGENDS NEVER DIE!

mark liggins please leave

[DemocratLupis]

JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD! and CHRISTIANITY=CHRIST
is not evil it is pure the Crusades were justified!

[jb_1430]

[QUOTE=jb_1430;10260]Amusing that none of you can grasp that "Islam" doesnt mean "all Muslims".
...
General read the above quote from jb concerning all muslims.
JB..who said it does include ALL MUSLIMS?


I dont answer stupid questions. It's perfectly clear what I did say.
MARK

[jb_1430]

The thread is strictly about Middle East Politics, and jb_1430
you have turned the thread into a bible discussion thread.
Since the thread topic is ....Islam is Evil stay focus on the topic.
We can make the points be clear without debating the Bible or
Quran.



You are again confused. I havent brought in any bible verses to the discussion. Below is what I have brought in to the discussion because your assertion that a discussion of Islam should be without a discussion of the Quran, is ridiculous. But I understand why you dont want to discuss that.

MARK



2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

[4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9.12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[25.52] So do not follow the unbelievers, and strive against them a mighty striving with it.

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.




[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,

[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake...

4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell.....




Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25: Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.


Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).

Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."

Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."


Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause."

Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
Narrated Aisha (mother of the faithful believers):

I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html


Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman.
[the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."
http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/fr/rss/


Along with the writings of-
Syed Qutb
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/index_2.asp

and quotes from-
Ibn Khaldoon and Al-Mawirdi
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~luqman/Belief/Khilafah/one.html

and how can we forget Bin Laden-

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

[9sublime]

and how can we forget Bin Laden-



Because he is not like most Muslims.

[jb_1430]

Jb??? jeb bush??? gene simmons??? mark??? whoever you're LEAVE and don't come back you're on another forum and I think it's mark not Mark and it's definantly not MARK it's mark mArc...


LEGENDS NEVER DIE!

mark liggins please leave


I am Zardoz! Into a world of eternal life, I bring you the gift of death!

aka MARK

[vyo476]

I am Zardoz! Into a world of eternal life, I bring you the gift of death!

aka MARK

I'm guessing this makes sense to you...? An inside joke, perhaps.

[OPGhostdog]

You are again confused. I havent brought in any bible verses to the discussion. Below is what I have brought in to the discussion because your assertion that a discussion of Islam should be without a discussion of the Quran, is ridiculous. But I understand why you dont want to discuss that.

MARK














Along with the writings of-
Syed Qutb
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/index_2.asp

and quotes from-
Ibn Khaldoon and Al-Mawirdi
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~luqman/Belief/Khilafah/one.html

and how can we forget Bin Laden-

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

JB, You can't make me believe in your non-senses. Why do you start
posting facts instead of trying to force your religious beliefs on people.
I believe in the Holy Quran (meaning I believe what it reads). Just like
you believe in the bible. You do not have to take up extra thread space
trying to show people your religious beliefs or how you think.

People like you really do have some serious issues whenever it comes
to twisting **** up to make yourself look good. Here you are hating a
man that YOU really don't have any proof that he was behind 9-11,
and it should state in your bible...Thy shall not bare false witnesses.

Again Dork JB, What you don't understand about my statement when
I said I don't debate religious matters, and you just wasted 10 minutes
of your life typing YOUR bible verses (trying) to force me to read some-
thing that I will read but not comment or debate. Your comment about
Death. We all is living around Death. That's listed in the Samurai's Code
of Ethics, and we all should be prepared to meet a certain death.

[vyo476]

JB, You can't make me believe in your non-senses. Why do you start
posting facts instead of trying to force your religious beliefs on people.
I believe in the Holy Quran (meaning I believe what it reads). Just like
you believe in the bible. You do not have to take up extra thread space
trying to show people your religious beliefs or how you think.

People like you really do have some serious issues whenever it comes
to twisting **** up to make yourself look good. Here you are hating a
man that YOU really don't have any proof that he was behind 9-11,
and it should state in your bible...Thy shall not bare false witnesses.

Again Dork JB, What you don't understand about my statement when
I said I don't debate religious matters, and you just wasted 10 minutes
of your life typing YOUR bible verses (trying to force me to read some-
thing that I will read but not comment or debate.

Actually, it was Sgt. Schultz and I who quoted the bible...if Mark did I missed it.

[jb_1430]

Its kind of like the lights are on, but I dont think anybody is home. And I am an atheist so all that crap about "people of the book" and "idolaters" doesnt apply to me. I am an "unbeliever" MARK

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).





JB, You can't make me believe in your non-senses. Why do you start
posting facts instead of trying to force your religious beliefs on people.
I believe in the Holy Quran (meaning I believe what it reads). Just like
you believe in the bible. You do not have to take up extra thread space
trying to show people your religious beliefs or how you think.

People like you really do have some serious issues whenever it comes
to twisting **** up to make yourself look good. Here you are hating a
man that YOU really don't have any proof that he was behind 9-11,
and it should state in your bible...Thy shall not bare false witnesses.

Again Dork JB, What you don't understand about my statement when
I said I don't debate religious matters, and you just wasted 10 minutes
of your life typing YOUR bible verses (trying) to force me to read some-
thing that I will read but not comment or debate. Your comment about
Death. We all is living around Death. That's listed in the Samurai's Code
of Ethics, and we all should be prepared to meet a certain death.

[DemocratLupis]

I'am the Grim biotch! even the Beast needs love!
I'am eternal! Dominic Von Dracula!

[OPGhostdog]

[quote=PoliticalGhostdog] Most dogs who bury a bone always
return to dig it up.

I just completed re-reading this thread, and its interesting to
read more posts that really do not understand Islam. So how
can someone dog a religious belief, and know nothing about
the subject?

Islam is Evil! What kind of bull**** statement is that? Also
I have read some real good replies on this thread's topic.
To me it looks like other religious groups is discriminating
against Islam.

I have not read one post on this thread discriminate against
you Jews,Catholics,etc,etc,etc. However the main topic is
Islam and Muslims. You Muslm/Islam bashers have always
had hate towards Muslims, and since 9-11 has happened it
just brought the beast out of most of you. Especially you
brain damaged Bush supporters.

Now explain or show me where other religious freaks isn't
dangerious, and don't post no off the wall bs...be real.

[jb_1430]

[quote=PoliticalGhostdog] Now explain or show me where other religious freaks isn't
dangerious, and don't post no off the wall bs...be real.

The non Islamic religious freaks have not been motivated by their religion to kill thousands of non-believers or fellow Muslims they deem to not be proper muslims. The non Islamic religious freaks dont view themselves as on a mission from God to restore the Islamic caliphate to rule the world. MARK

[rmbarron]

I am Zardoz! Into a world of eternal life, I bring you the gift of death!

aka MARK

That movie was GREAT!! An animated picture of Sean Connery's flacid penis. Need I say more?

[rmbarron]

I'm glad the last pages of this post have degenerated into nonsense. Islam is evil? How retarded.

[DemocratLupis]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski76.html

[Coyote]

Many Wines
Jalil ad-Din Rumi


God has given us a dark wine so potent that,
drinking it, we leave the two worlds.

God has put into the form of hashish a power
to deliver the taster from self-consciousness.

God has made sleep so
that it erases every thought.

God made Majnun love Layla so much that
just her dog would cause confusion in him.

There are thousands of wines
that can take over our minds.

Don't think all ecstacies
are the same!

Jesus was lost in his love for God.
His donkey was drunk with barley.

Drink from the presence of saints,
not from those other jars.

Every object, every being,
is a jar full of delight.

Be a conoisseur,
and taste with caution.

Any wine will get you high.
Judge like a king, and choose the purest,

the ones unadulterated with fear,
or some urgency about "what's needed."

Drink the wine that moves you
as a camel moves when it's been untied,

and is just ambling about.

[SW85]

You treat "evil" as an absolute. Evil is defined by society and our two societies - Western and Islamic - define it very, very differently. By our standards they may be considered evil (although I don't consider most Muslims to be evil, but that's my personal opinion). By their standards they consider us to be evil. There is no way for either of us to objectively refer to the other as evil because there is no absolute definition of the term.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

He thinks Islam is evil -- it follows that he's using his definition of evil. Why should he judge other people by the standards they set for themselves, rather than his own?

This is the equivalent of saying "Well, that's your opinion," to which the logical response is "duh."

Regardless, their culture is quite separate from ours, with a whole different values set. Who are we to judge them?

Uh, free people with values of our own. Who are you to say we can't judge people?

I'm not going to dig through the remaining 27 pages of this thread, because I have a feeling I've addressed all the salient points that will be made with the above two quotes.

[PoliticalMessager]

Islam is evil to people who don't understand the religion,
and is to full of self greed to ask. The concept of Jehad
seem to always be tied in with Terrorism, but Jehad is
meant for upholding the uprightness of the word of
" Allah " GOD. for the victory of suppressed for safeguarding
the places of worship, and for defence againist the aggression
and atrocities of Tyrants.

I am not trying to brain damage anyone no more then
what's have already been done, but when we jump to
create our own opinion.

As a messager its not my intentions to convert anyone to
Islam, but its my mission to make corrections in the time
of confusion, and arabic words seems confusion to those
who don't understand them or isn't aware to the teaching
of Islam.

Therforth; I am going to share a url with the ones who have
an opened mind. http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/
teachings/index3.htm

The Objectives/Rules and Conditions, and the Rules & the
Limitations of Jehad is listed on that url.

Being born here in a Country where the game is....Watch
Out Muslims are Killers, and yet our so-called own Gov't
is screwing us ALL good. Here in America we do have the
freedom to talk, and I believe that IF we talk right people
will listen.

[jb_1430]

Darul Uloom school produced Mullah Omar. Many of us understand Islam just fine. Just as the millions of Arabs understand the meaning of Arabic words just fine.

[DemocratLupis]

no people dont understand islam most Americans think middle eastern islam is evil and corrupt and needs reform. Arabs dont seem to understand the meaning of peace

[DemocratLupis]

http://www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm

many Americans are getting tired of middle eastern muslims
and want a war against them for real's

b.s. this link is proof and these qoutes come exactly part of the quran
the second half of it

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.

Q 9:73

[jb_1430]

Islam is evil to people who don't understand the religion,
and is to full of self greed to ask. The concept of Jehad
seem to always be tied in with Terrorism, but Jehad is
meant for upholding the uprightness of the word of
" Allah " GOD. for the victory of suppressed for safeguarding
the places of worship, and for defence againist the aggression
and atrocities of Tyrants....

Therforth; I am going to share a url with the ones who have
an opened mind. http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/
teachings/index3.htm



Just the usual Islam is peace BS. Relying on verses from the Meccan period and avoiding Medinan verses. Qutb in miliestones discusses the progression of jihad.




Thus for thirteen years after the beginning of his Messengership, he called people to God through preaching, without fighting or Jizyah, and was commanded to restrain himself and to practice patience and forbearance. Then he was commanded to migrate, and later permission was given to fight. Then he was commanded to fight those who fought him, and to restrain himself from those who did not make war with him. Later he was commanded to fight the polytheists until God's religion was fully established. ...
It was also explained that war should be declared against those from among the 'People of the Book' [16 Christians and Jews] who declare open enmity, until they agree to pay Jizyah or accept Islam. Concerning the polytheists and the hypocrites, it was commanded in this chapter that Jihaad be declared against them and that they be treated harshly. ...
it was commanded that the treaties with the polytheists be brought to an end at the period of their expiration. In this respect, the people with whom there were treaties were divided into three categories: The first, those who broke the treaty and did not fulfill its terms. He was ordered to fight against them; he fought with them and was victorious. The second were those with whom the treaty was made for a stated term; they had not broken this treaty nor helped anyone against the Prophet - peace be on him - Concerning them, God ordered that these treaties be completed to their full term. The third kind were those with whom there was neither a treaty nor were they fighting against the Prophet-peace be on him-, or those with whom no term of expiration was stated. Concerning these, it was commanded that they be given four months' notice of expiration, at the end of which they should be considered open enemies and fought with.
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/chapter_4.asp

[PoliticalMessager]

You know after reading months and months of you
trying impress people. I still find you one strange
bozo. Everything you type is usually quotes from a
newspaper article you read, or from ABC Nightly news.

Number 1: You never would know or learn what I know,
due to the fact that you are a inexperienced blabber
mouth jb_1430, and Secondly; hope you live to be my age
with all that mouth you got.

This is the internet meaning whatever you post isn't good
enough for me, due to the fact that I think your posts is
garbage, and have no value to the contents.

Darul Uloom school produced Mullah Omar. Many of us understand Islam just fine. Just as the millions of Arabs understand the meaning of Arabic words just fine.

Now I suppose you attened Uloom huh? You know Mullah Omar?
Many of us? Who is many of us, and are you the spokesperson
for the us who understand Islam just fine? You are full of s**t
you ask me. Then you had the balls to say just like millions of
Muslims understand arabic. Of course they should understand
their own language, but the problem is understanding people
like you, and I am going to speak for the million...hell NO they
would think you're on camel acid.

Again, Personal experience pays off not dreaming.

[jb_1430]

You know after reading months and months of you
trying impress people. I still find you one strange
bozo. Everything you type is usually quotes from a
newspaper article you read, or from ABC Nightly news.


"Milestones" by Sayyid Qutb. Its a book neither a newspaper article or ABC nightly news. And usually, as in this case, I am quoting Muslims.



Number 1: You never would know or learn what I know,
due to the fact that you are a inexperienced blabber
mouth jb_1430, and Secondly; hope you live to be my age
with all that mouth you got.


Seems you know what a typical Islamic madrassa education would teach you to know.



Then you had the balls to say just like millions of
Muslims understand arabic. Of course they should understand
their own language,

Actually, most Muslims dont understand Arabic. I said the ARABS understand ARABIC just fine. Such as Sayyid Qutb. Preposterous to blame his understanding of Islamic doctrine on some kind of arabic translation problem since he speaks Arabic.
Get an arguement if you can.

[Reliant]

http://www.answering-islam.org/Walid/gog.htm

http://www.banislam.net/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski76.html

http://www.islamisevilandinhuman.com/8/


Satan=Allah

The Devil=Tele-us

And Christianity is ssooooo much better.... right?


"Religious zealotry over the centuries has been directly responsible for countless deaths, imprisonments, needless suffering, torturings, and the oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, colour, sexuality or belief.

A few obvious examples :

The Crusades.
The Inquisition.
Witch trials in Europe and America.
The Divine right of Kings (valid until killed by another Divinely-appointed King).
Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, "heathen" religions and cultures.
The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans ("They're devil-worshippers!"), the Romans demonizing Christians ("They're atheists and cannibals!").
Persecution of Heretics - e.g. Galileo for daring to suggest that the Earth orbits the Sun.
Children dying because their parents refused them medical treatment on religious grounds; relying instead on faith-healers and prayer.
Slavery, supposedly supported by scripture ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, just as you would obey Christ.", St.Paul, Ephesians 6:5)
Holy wars - followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
Persecution/punishment of blasphemers (Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on him), and blasphemy laws in general.
The requirement of theism in order to stand for public office or to testify in court.
Serial killers believing they are doing the work of Satan (or sometimes Jesus).
Often-fatal exorcisms by priests believing they are destroying the work of Satan.
People suffering dreadful injury or death in the belief that their faith has made them invulnerable (e.g. people climbing into lion enclosures at zoos, with a Bible as protection).
Whole societies divided by minor differences in belief or doctrine, often resulting in violence.
Mass suicides of cult-members following a charismatic leader who believes the world is about to End (most recently, the Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple cults.
The attempted genocide of followers of a particular faith (e.g. the Jewish Holocaust, "ethnic cleansing" in former Yugoslavia).
Blood sacrifices to appease the Gods, or to ensure a good harvest. (The Aztecs made daily human sacrifices to ensure that the Sun would rise. Or did they? )
The practice of "female circumcision" (more accurately termed genital mutilation).
The discouragement of rational, critical thought (resulting in young-earth creationists, for example).
Uncontrolled population growth caused (or at least helped) by churches prohibiting birth-control and abortion. (You can also add : unwanted pregnancies, ill-fated forced marriages, and pregnant teenagers condemned to a life in mental institutions to avoid embarrassing their families.)
The spread of sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. AIDS) due to churches prohibiting the use of condoms.
Believers whipping, impaling, poisoning or crucifying themselves during religious festivals as a demonstration of their faith and piety.
Suicide bombers taught to believe that martyrs go straight to Paradise.
The indoctrination of children into the religion of their parents, giving them an arbitrary, life-long belief that is almost entirely dependent on their place of birth.
Women treated as second-class citizens or even slaves (article : Islam's Shame).
Pentecostal snake-handlers (Augusta Chronicle news article)
Persecution of homosexuals (Genocide of gay and lesbian youth)
Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
Minor religions ("cults") stockpiling weapons to defend themselves from the Armies Of Satan (i.e. the police and the government).

"Ah, but that was all years ago." you might say. Yes, it was. Unfortunately, a lot of these things still go on today. Look through the Freethought Today Newsletter for "In the News", "Religious Violence", and "You won't believe you're reading this" articles. You might be surprised at how many children are killed each year by well-meaning parents trying to exorcise demons, or people killed/imprisoned by fundamentalists for trivial infringements of "holy laws". People still persecute and kill each other safe in the knowledge that God is on their side, and that they are in the right, fighting for Holy Truth and Divine Justice.

It should be noted that many of these atrocities are caused as a direct result of religious belief - if the person did not follow a particular religion, or did not believe quite so strongly, then they simply would not have acted as they did. Not only is religion used to reinforce/justify a person's prejudices, it may also cause someone to commit an act of violence that they would otherwise have considered abhorrent (i.e. the mother who spent several hours beating her young daughter in order to force out the devil that was making the child playfully turn cartwheels in the house - resulting in the death of the child).

The benefits of religion (many of which may be achieved without religious belief) can include spiritual well-being, charitable works, a sense of meaning and purpose, the bringing together of communities, comfort in times of distress and the (unconfirmed) promise of eternal life after death".

How does this weigh against the other side of the scales?

[9sublime]

Great post.

[jb_1430]

Islam is evil to people who don't understand the religion,
and is to full of self greed to ask. ...
Therforth; I am going to share a url with the ones who have
an opened mind. http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/
teachings/index3.htm



We understand.



Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.

Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece



His target is the kuffar, the nonMuslim, whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu or atheist, and the message is simple: their designs are evil, their ways corrupting. Stay away from them.

Mr ul Haq, 36, who is charismatic, intelligent and British, seems to share Osama bin Laden’s stated conviction that America and its allies are seeking to destroy Islam. Both men regard this as the fulfilment of a prophecy made by the Prophet Muhammad, and both find justification in the Koran for the use of militant jihad to attack and kill those nonbelievers who have incurred Allah’s displeasure.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2402998.ece

[vyo476]

Thanks for stating the obvious.

He thinks Islam is evil -- it follows that he's using his definition of evil. Why should he judge other people by the standards they set for themselves, rather than his own?

This is the equivalent of saying "Well, that's your opinion," to which the logical response is "duh."

You're failing to grasp the gravity of difference that a unique, separate culture creates. Everything from aesthetics to ethics is different - and just why is it okay for us to impose our own value judgments on them? Because we're "free"? Don't forget, "freedom" is just another part of our culture. We think it's great. Muslims think sitting on prayer rugs facing Mecca every morning is great.

The point is, there can be no valid argument for their being "evil" unless one can establish why one is better than they are. And since that isn't possible...


Uh, free people with values of our own. Who are you to say we can't judge people?

Someone who has read up on history and has determined for himself that when we go around "judging" minorities, it tends to go badly - just ask the American Indians or African Americans. I'm not saying you can't - have all the opinions you want. The regressive ones aren't going to help matters though.

Understandings between unique cultures cannot be met so long as both sides persist in spewing forth hatred and dislike. Look at our relationship with Japan - in the 1930s and 1940s, America and Japan didn't exactly get along. Part of this had to do with a lack of cultural understanding. Once WWII was over we started getting to know each other a little better, and today our two countries, despite our differences, get along pretty good.

Now, I'm not saying we all have to drop everything and go hug a Muslim. Just try to be more open-minded about Islam - and don't condemn anyone who isn't threatening us. That's where I've always drawn the line, personally. While we have to have respect for their unique culture, that respect ends where they begin attacking us. The ones who attack, we deal with. The rest, we leave alone. Plain and simple.

[vyo476]

Mark, I love how in one breath, you condemn their values, and in the next condemn them for condemning our values.

[jb_1430]

You're failing to grasp the gravity of difference that a unique, separate culture creates. Everything from aesthetics to ethics is different - and just why is it okay for us to impose our own value judgments on them?


I think you are the one who is failing to grasp. None of us are going to deny that waging violent jihad to ensure that no one but allah is worshipped, is seen by Islamic culture as the will of allah and therefore the opposite of evil. They see it as a good thing. A fight against evil.
We just see a worldwide Islamic caliphate, applying the law of the shariah as the only law of the land, as a bad thing regardless of their culture viewing it as the will of allah.

[vyo476]

I think you are the one who is failing to grasp. None of us are going to deny that waging violent jihad to ensure that no one but allah is worshipped, is seen by Islamic culture as the will of allah and therefore the opposite of evil. They see it as a good thing. A fight against evil.
We just see a worldwide Islamic caliphate, applying the law of the shariah as the only law of the land, as a bad thing regardless of their culture viewing it as the will of allah.

It's not even "what they do" that you're messing up on, Mark, but the "how" and "why" that drives them. You continue to apply Western values to Islam and as long as you do, you'll be wrong.

[Untouchable]

I think it's hard to call the fastest religion in the world "evil" :rolleyes:

It may be just a racist opinion.

[palerider]

And Christianity is ssooooo much better.... right?


"Religious zealotry over the centuries has been directly responsible for countless deaths, imprisonments, needless suffering, torturings, and the oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, colour, sexuality or belief.

A few obvious examples :



So you are operating under the principle that however many wrongs make a right?

By the way, the crusades were a response to islamic aggression.

[jb_1430]

Mark, I love how in one breath, you condemn their values, and in the next condemn them for condemning our values.

I love how you can percieve that from two words "We understand."

[jb_1430]

It's not even "what they do" that you're messing up on, Mark, but the "how" and "why" that drives them. You continue to apply Western values to Islam and as long as you do, you'll be wrong.


Feel free to be specific about ANYTHING you think I am wrong about.

[PoliticalMessager]

It's not even "what they do" that you're messing up on, Mark, but the "how" and "why" that drives them. You continue to apply Western values to Islam and as long as you do, you'll be wrong.

vyo, your post above is 100% correct, but remember when someone
does not have any knowledge about who they are targeting they
don't give a damn about nobody but themselves, and you see for your
own self how wrong he is.

Personally, Mark (aka JB) is totally confused, due to the fact that he is
starting to think that Iraq is the United States, and that's why the ...
continue to dream about western values in the east.
By him wishful thinking all he's doing is making himself look stupid vyo,
and I have never seen anyone in his condition change their thoughts
or behavior.

Like I said early that the Western World do go around the globe
trying to add how the western world lives, and don't realize that
other places in the world has already established their own ways
of living and worshipping. America is using the same pattern that
England used when the England music invaded America.

In closing, One can see through a comment a poster will submit,
due to the fact (Like my grandfather) used to say a kid should
stay in a kid's place, and learn how to keep his or her mouth shut
when a topic is being talking about. Which means don't try to
out talk anyone when one don't know what they are talking about
themselves. :D Now vyo!! who does that remind you of?

That's why I have him on ignore.

[jb_1430]

It's not even "what they do" that you're messing up on, Mark, but the "how" and "why" that drives them. You continue to apply Western values to Islam and as long as you do, you'll be wrong.

Nonsense, Ive presented writings and views of Muslims applying Islamic values.

[jb_1430]

That's why I have him on ignore.

You have me on ignore because everytime you try to formulate a response to my statements, you end up making a fool of yourself.

[jb_1430]

Interesting reading from the court documents from the U.S. v. Holy Land Foundation case.
http://www.nefafoundation.org/hlfdocs.html

From one document written by the Muslim Brotherhood.


"On the General Strategic Goal of the Group in North America"

....
The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a “Civilization-Jihadist” process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.
...
http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/HLF/Akram_GeneralStrategicGoal.pdf

[Lasher]

All one need do is look at the daily news to determine that islam is evil. The apologists for islam never cease to amaze me.

But not as evil as the illegal, terrorist, parasite state of Israel, whose minions in the American press cover up all Israel's depredations in Palestine. You apologists for Ersatz Israel never cease to nauseate me.

[numinus]

But not as evil as the illegal, terrorist, parasite state of Israel, whose minions in the American press cover up all Israel's depredations in Palestine. You apologists for Ersatz Israel never cease to nauseate me.

The only thing nauseating around here comes from the rhetoric of hamas and hezbollah - the leaders of which actually believe they can establish a nation for themselves from ACTS OF COWARDICE.

History is CLEAR and has made an IRREVOCABLE JUDGEMENT. These clowns never deigned to even consider the 2 state solution in palestine - an amicable and quite generous settlement proposed by the un general assembly. In their pathetic minds, ANY SOLUTION THAT DOESN'T GIVE THEM PALESTINIAN MANDATE IN IT'S ENTIRETY IS UNACCEPTABLE. And so, they tried to fashion a middle east unto their own image and likeness - in COMPLETE DEFIANCE of the international community and simple common human decency.

And so, what can anyone expect from incompetent and cowardly buffoons other than complete and utter failure - EVERY SINGLE TIME??? Now, they are asking for the very SAME solution proposed by the un - without abandoning this absurd dream of a greater arab palestinian nation. What they cannot achieve on their own, they wish for the entire international community, the same international community they defied, to grant them????

As if INCOMPETENCE isn't nauseating enough, you add COWARDICE to that as well and you have a stink that stretches to high heaven!

[numinus]

Oh, and to answer the thread - 80% of moslems are NOT arabs. And among the arab moslems, only their leaders would consider exploiting their people to their own megalomaniac ends. One must NEVER suppose that the actions of a handful of clowns represents islam in its entirety.

[bewitched]

Oh, and to answer the thread - 80% of moslems are NOT arabs. And among the arab moslems, only their leaders would consider exploiting their people to their own megalomaniac ends. One must NEVER suppose that the actions of a handful of clowns represents islam in its entirety.

it's not a handful.
100,000 signed up in Iran to carry out suicide missions.
there are 30 cells in the UK, that's about 5000 operatives and support.
cells in Australia, US, Spain and others number in the tens of thousands.
then there's the millions who riot and burn $hit.
not to mention the 10000 terrorism incidents since 911.
do you think this is just Osama and a dozen turbaned Taliban against us?

[bewitched]

Like I said early that the Western World do go around the globe
trying to add how the western world lives, and don't realize that
other places in the world has already established their own ways
of living and worshipping. America is using the same pattern that
England used when the England music invaded America.

.

bull$hit. that is one of the biggest myths out there. it's propaganda from the enemy.

[vyo476]

it's not a handful.
100,000 signed up in Iran to carry out suicide missions.
there are 30 cells in the UK, that's about 5000 operatives and support.
cells in Australia, US, Spain and others number in the tens of thousands.
then there's the millions who riot and burn $hit.
not to mention the 10000 terrorism incidents since 911.
do you think this is just Osama and a dozen turbaned Taliban against us?

Think about what numinus is saying. He's speaking in percentages. In terms of actual numbers there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today (according to CAIR). Even if only one percent of Muslims are involved in terrorism worldwide, that's 12,000,000 terrorists. 12 million terrorists more than accounts for the figures you posted, but by comparison to the whole 1.2 billion of them, they're still just a handful.

Granted, most sources say that a little more than 1% of Muslims are involved in terrorism, but I'll leave it up to you to sort out the details for yourself.

[vyo476]

bull$hit. that is one of the biggest myths out there. it's propaganda from the enemy.

Actually, it's moral relativism, and you'll find that, amongst other things, it is the only way to sociologically view history.

[bewitched]

Think about what numinus is saying. He's speaking in percentages. In terms of actual numbers there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today (according to CAIR). Even if only one percent of Muslims are involved in terrorism worldwide, that's 12,000,000 terrorists. 12 million terrorists more than accounts for the figures you posted, but by comparison to the whole 1.2 billion of them, they're still just a handful.

Granted, most sources say that a little more than 1% of Muslims are involved in terrorism, but I'll leave it up to you to sort out the details for yourself.

you must have big hands.
you know what they say about men with big hands...

[vyo476]

you must have big hands.
you know what they say about men with big hands...

"By comparison," friend, by comparison. The percentage of Muslims who participate in terrorist acts is quite small by comparison to the whole.

And no, I don't know what they say about men with big hands.

[bewitched]

"By comparison," friend, by comparison. The percentage of Muslims who participate in terrorist acts is quite small by comparison to the whole.

And no, I don't know what they say about men with big hands.

the numbers don't really matter because the ideology of Islam is the same, therefore all muslims believe. whether they are called to battle now or later only means that they will be called to battle. it is the duty of all muslims to fight non-muslims. so the entire 1.4 billion is the sum of the enemy. it's the law.

big hands... big other things.

[vyo476]

the numbers don't really matter because the ideology of Islam is the same, therefore all muslims believe. whether they are called to battle now or later only means that they will be called to battle. it is the duty of all muslims to fight non-muslims. so the entire 1.4 billion is the sum of the enemy. it's the law.

The words may be the same but interpretations are wildly different.

Why else do we see the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other in Iraq today?

[bewitched]

The words may be the same but interpretations are wildly different.

Why else do we see the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other in Iraq today?

because they are teaming with the US. that's against Islamic law, subject to death. same as converting to Christianity in Saudi. very simple.

there is not alot of room for interpretation in Islam. law is law. if there is a question then the high cleric makes a decision based on the Quran... which usually goes along with the ancient bull$hit laws they still practice every day.
but for the most part Sharia law is very simple and directly from quranic verses. it is illegal to help the infidel non-muslims. it is the responsibility of muslims to kill those.

[vyo476]

because they are teaming with the US.

Who is?

there is not alot of room for interpretation in Islam. law is law. if there is a question then the high cleric makes a decision based on the Quran...

You do realize that you just said that there isn't a lot of room for interpretation in Islam, but when there's a question a cleric interprets the Qu'ran, right?

but for the most part Sharia law is very simple and directly from quranic verses.

Directly from an interpretation of Qu'ranic verses.

it is illegal to help the infidel non-muslims. it is the responsibility of muslims to kill those.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of Sharia, which does allow for the continued existance of non-Muslims. Look up "jizya" sometime.

[bewitched]

Who is?



You do realize that you just said that there isn't a lot of room for interpretation in Islam, but when there's a question a cleric interprets the Qu'ran, right?



Directly from an interpretation of Qu'ranic verses.



This is a blatant misrepresentation of Sharia, which does allow for the continued existance of non-Muslims. Look up "jizya" sometime.
heh.
anyone who teams with the infidel is considered a traitor and killed under rules of dar ul Harb. so the so called civil war and shia and sunni doesn't exist. this is dar ul Harb.

quranic law is very simple. only on rare occasions are clerics used to interpret, for instance the lashing of the British teddy bear teacher. she was to be lashed by law.

jizya is a tax. Israel pays 80 million to exist in their land. that doesn't make non-muslims equal. it's a tax. nice try though.

[vyo476]

heh.
anyone who teams with the infidel is considered a traitor and killed under rules of dar ul Harb. so the so called civil war and shia and sunni doesn't exist. this is dar ul Harb.

From a certain point of view, perhaps.

I tend to think the Sunnis and Shiites who are doing the fighting look at this a bit differently.

quranic law is very simple. only on rare occasions are clerics used to interpret, for instance the lashing of the British teddy bear teacher. she was to be lashed by law.

Qur'anic law is viewed simply, you mean.

jizya is a tax. Israel pays 80 million to exist in their land. that doesn't make non-muslims equal. it's a tax. nice try though.

I never said that it made anyone "equal." I was responding to this statement of yours:

it is illegal to help the infidel non-muslims. it is the responsibility of muslims to kill those.

Which is obviously not true. The tax is proof - after all, why bother to tax someone who you are commanded to kill anyway?

[bewitched]

From a certain point of view, perhaps.

I tend to think the Sunnis and Shiites who are doing the fighting look at this a bit differently.



Qur'anic law is viewed simply, you mean.



I never said that it made anyone "equal." I was responding to this statement of yours:



Which is obviously not true. The tax is proof - after all, why bother to tax someone who you are commanded to kill anyway?

no sunnis and shia don't look at it any other way than I explained it. they are brothers unless they help the infidel. the entire OIC is a brotherhood. and that's impostant to know in order to understand the theology in other terms than Western.
jizya is a tax, you asked if I knew what it meant... and it is simply a tax. the only thing it has to do with equality is to show that those paying it are considered lesser and in obligation.

and no, Quranic law is very simple. not viewed simply. it is simple.

[numinus]

it's not a handful.
100,000 signed up in Iran to carry out suicide missions.
there are 30 cells in the UK, that's about 5000 operatives and support.
cells in Australia, US, Spain and others number in the tens of thousands.
then there's the millions who riot and burn $hit.
not to mention the 10000 terrorism incidents since 911.
do you think this is just Osama and a dozen turbaned Taliban against us?

What utter nonsense!

What you are demonstrating is merely the extent of ignorance which prevails in the arab world and the effects of demagougery in the minds of people in such a sorry state.

And even if you sum up your figures exactly, it would still consist of a handful of CLOWNS with respect to islam. As I said, there is no way the actions of these cowards may be deemed representative of this religion. All the moslems I know, while being sympathetic to the cause of a palestinian state, cringes at the rhetoric of these self-appointed leaders.

[numinus]

the numbers don't really matter because the ideology of Islam is the same, therefore all muslims believe. whether they are called to battle now or later only means that they will be called to battle. it is the duty of all muslims to fight non-muslims. so the entire 1.4 billion is the sum of the enemy. it's the law.

big hands... big other things.

Well then, its settled.

Any ideology that is incapable of CO-EXISTENCE might as well be relegated to obsolesence - as it is irrevocably bound for. Understand that one's existence may NEVER be justified at the expense of another's existence. The sooner these clowns realize this, the sooner their path to self-annihilation and extinction may be averted. The cowardly strategy of hiding behind women and children simply can't go on indefinitely.

[bewitched]

Well then, its settled.

Any ideology that is incapable of CO-EXISTENCE might as well be relegated to obsolesence - as it is irrevocably bound for. Understand that one's existence may NEVER be justified at the expense of another's existence. The sooner these clowns realize this, the sooner their path to self-annihilation and extinction may be averted. The cowardly strategy of hiding behind women and children simply can't go on indefinitely.

your biology teacher would be proud.
co-existence is a parasitic state.

[numinus]

your biology teacher would be proud.
co-existence is a parasitic state.

She is proud.

I had in mind mutalism or at the very least, commensalism. Such relationships serve as standards within the community of nations. Parasitism is what describes hamas and hezbollah - in wherever they exist presently.

[bewitched]

She is proud.

I had in mind mutalism or at the very least, commensalism. Such relationships serve as standards within the community of nations. Parasitism is what describes hamas and hezbollah - in wherever they exist presently.

hamas and hezbollah are one in the same, endosymbiont, living inside one another, like the rest of Islam. whereas the West practices mutualism is an interaction between individuals of two different species. (or more)
can you understand it that way?

then comes Parasitism...which is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species in which one, the parasite, benefits from a prolonged sucking from the host.
some argue the US is sucking oil. but in actuality the US is supplying a thriving economy from the trade of money for oil. this misunderstanding is causing the endosymbiont (Islam) to feel defensive and attack the Commensalism (democracy) causing a mutual relationship to not be possible.

[numinus]

hamas and hezbollah are one in the same, endosymbiont, living inside one another, like the rest of Islam. whereas the West practices mutualism is an interaction between individuals of two different species. (or more)
can you understand it that way?

This is nonsense. Hamas and hezbollah are armed groups existing within their host countries and yet not subject to the laws that shelter them. Or have you forgotten the recent israeli-lebanese conflict?

The lebanese government was calling on israel to stop its offensive at the same time admitting that it is incapable of stopping hezbollah from operating within its borders.

There are many christians, jews, moslems, buddhists, etc., all being subject to the laws of their respective countries. It is plain that the organizations mentioned are, in fact, parasites and diseases whose existence are clearly harmful to the countries from which they enjoy citizenship and succor at the same time providing no (or minimal) benefit.

then comes Parasitism...which is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species in which one, the parasite, benefits from a prolonged sucking from the host.
some argue the US is sucking oil. but in actuality the US is supplying a thriving economy from the trade of money for oil. this misunderstanding is causing the endosymbiont (Islam) to feel defensive and attack the Commensalism (democracy) causing a mutual relationship to not be possible.

In commensalism, one organism derives benefit while the host derives neither harm nor benefit. In this sense, the relationship between the western democracies and the middle east ISN'T commensalism because both parties derive some benefit from the other.

Clear?

[bewitched]

This is nonsense. Hamas and hezbollah are armed groups existing within their host countries and yet not subject to the laws that shelter them. Or have you forgotten the recent israeli-lebanese conflict?

The lebanese government was calling on israel to stop its offensive at the same time admitting that it is incapable of stopping hezbollah from operating within its borders.

There are many christians, jews, moslems, buddhists, etc., all being subject to the laws of their respective countries. It is plain that the organizations mentioned are, in fact, parasites and diseases whose existence are clearly harmful to the countries from which they enjoy citizenship and succor at the same time providing no (or minimal) benefit.



In commensalism, one organism derives benefit while the host derives neither harm nor benefit. In this sense, the relationship between the western democracies and the middle east ISN'T commensalism because both parties derive some benefit from the other.

Clear?

you are only seeing this from Western eyes. Islam (hamas, hezballah, palestine, 57 OIC countries) doesn't think the same as the West, they are not getting some benefit from the US, the US is pigs and dogs and a worthless parasite that needs to be rid of. this is the mindset.
they don't think like us. at all. they don't agree with our vision of the world. at all. they think everyone else other than muslims are useless parasites that need extermination.
grasp this concept and we can move forward from there.

[ArmChair General]

You treat "evil" as an absolute. Evil is defined by society and our two societies - Western and Islamic - define it very, very differently. By our standards they may be considered evil (although I don't consider most Muslims to be evil, but that's my personal opinion). By their standards they consider us to be evil. There is no way for either of us to objectively refer to the other as evil because there is no absolute definition of the term.

stupid

[bewitched]

What utter nonsense!

What you are demonstrating is merely the extent of ignorance which prevails in the arab world and the effects of demagougery in the minds of people in such a sorry state.

And even if you sum up your figures exactly, it would still consist of a handful of CLOWNS with respect to islam. As I said, there is no way the actions of these cowards may be deemed representative of this religion. All the moslems I know, while being sympathetic to the cause of a palestinian state, cringes at the rhetoric of these self-appointed leaders.

oh, and these leaders aren't self appointed. they are government clerics and other representatives. this is not a handful of clowns.

as for "evil", I think this sums up the view of evil from Islam:
Koran 8:55 “Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve…” (meaning non-muslims)

[Coyote]

oh, and these leaders aren't self appointed. they are government clerics and other representatives. this is not a handful of clowns.

as for "evil", I think this sums up the view of evil from Islam:
Koran 8:55 “Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve…” (meaning non-muslims)

I think this one is even more evil:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

[bewitched]

I think this one is even more evil:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

I don't get it. can you explain?

[Coyote]

I don't get it. can you explain?

kill and drive out the unbelievers.

[bewitched]

kill and drive out the unbelievers.

but the big difference is that Christians aren't practicing this in 2007. whereas muslims are. there is a specific 7 phase plan that will cause death and destruction to non-muslims.

there are only a few Christians (one) shooting up churches compared to the 10000 Islamic attacks since 911 against non-muslims.

[Coyote]

It doesn't matter - like the Quran, the Bible still promotes evil behavior and can be twisted into serving evil.

In terms of overall muslim population - the vast majority are not involved in terrorism nor do they support it.

This sounds more like an extremist faction like the Christian dominionists.

[bewitched]

It doesn't matter - like the Quran, the Bible still promotes evil behavior and can be twisted into serving evil.

In terms of overall muslim population - the vast majority are not involved in terrorism nor do they support it.

This sounds more like an extremist faction like the Christian dominionists.

not exactly, the vast majority of muslims believe in dar ul Islam. to them it is not terrorism. their belief is that non-muslims are infidels and deserve death is a pure and popular belief.
Christians believe in pluralism and don't want to kill off all the other religions.

as for carrying it out... muslims are killing daily for this belief whereas Christians are not.

[vyo476]

but the big difference is that Christians aren't practicing this in 2007. whereas muslims are. there is a specific 7 phase plan that will cause death and destruction to non-muslims.

However, Christians once did practice violence and warfare en masse. Look up the Age of Religious Warfare sometime. Christianity, at one point, fully embraced all the violent notions it could get its hands on. What changed? Conditions. Temperament. Fact is that today, most Christians don't have a whole lot to get upset over - upset enough to fight, anyway. Conditions are good = no fighting. That's a part of human nature.

Oh, and would you please link to something that explains this "7 phase plan" that you keep mentioning?

[Coyote]

However, Christians once did practice violence and warfare en masse. Look up the Age of Religious Warfare sometime. Christianity, at one point, fully embraced all the violent notions it could get its hands on. What changed? Conditions. Temperament. Fact is that today, most Christians don't have a whole lot to get upset over - upset enough to fight, anyway. Conditions are good = no fighting. That's a part of human nature.

Oh, and would you please link to something that explains this "7 phase plan" that you keep mentioning?



Actually, what changed in part I think is that most of the Christian countries are under a secular government and there is a seperation of church and state. I think that civililized Christianity or at least muzzled it. Plus, many of them are western fairly wealthy with a decent standard of living and education. If they get upset - they can make their opinions heard via the political process. You can't do that in a country where corruption is the rule.

[Coyote]

not exactly, the vast majority of muslims believe in dar ul Islam. to them it is not terrorism. their belief is that non-muslims are infidels and deserve death is a pure and popular belief.
Christians believe in pluralism and don't want to kill off all the other religions.

as for carrying it out... muslims are killing daily for this belief whereas Christians are not.

Believe in it literally? Figuratively? What source do you have for this "vast majority" - is that like the vast majority of Christians believe in Christendom, the concept that a nation is subject to the authority of the Church and that all territories would eventually be united under Christ?

Also, dar al-Islam is not necessarily regarded as a physical place by Muslims. Some Muslim scholars interpret it to revolve around the question of religious security: if a Muslim practices Islam freely in his place of abode, then he will be considered as living in a dar al-Islam, even if he is living in a secular or non-Islamic country.

[bewitched]

Also, dar al-Islam is not necessarily regarded as a physical place by Muslims. Some Muslim scholars interpret it to revolve around the question of religious security: if a Muslim practices Islam freely in his place of abode, then he will be considered as living in a dar al-Islam, even if he is living in a secular or non-Islamic country.
yes, dar ul Islam is a physical place. and dar ul Harb is places like the WTC. to understand why we were attacked, and will continue to be attacked, it is important to understand how they think of dar ul Islam, and it is a physical place. Israel happens to be a little scab in the middle of this physical place btw.

again, there isn't as much "interpretation" in Islam as in Christianity as you seem to be thinking (western). dar ul Islam also contains governments as well as population and territory. the same way "jihad" is suppose to be a personal inner struggle (interpreted by Christians and the West)... it isn't, it is physical battle. taqqiya allows the Christians to believe the "spiritual" crap about Islam, it is legal deceit that is blessed by Allah.

[vyo476]

Actually, what changed in part I think is that most of the Christian countries are under a secular government and there is a seperation of church and state. I think that civililized Christianity or at least muzzled it. Plus, many of them are western fairly wealthy with a decent standard of living and education. If they get upset - they can make their opinions heard via the political process. You can't do that in a country where corruption is the rule.

There's an underlying "why" to this too. Bad conditions make people tend towards extremism as a means of coping. The crazy religious types, and especially the potential crazy religious types, put up with our present secular government because conditions are more or less okay here right now. You can bet that if we had a major economic collapse or were invaded for real by a foreign power there'd be a rise in religious extremism - depending on the severity of the crisis it could possibly topple our secular government.

[vyo476]

again, there isn't as much "interpretation" in Islam as in Christianity as you seem to be thinking (western). dar ul Islam also contains governments as well as population and territory. the same way "jihad" is suppose to be a personal inner struggle (interpreted by Christians and the West)... it isn't, it is physical battle. taqqiya allows the Christians to believe the "spiritual" crap about Islam, it is legal deceit that is blessed by Allah.

Not so much interpretation...hmm...

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

[bewitched]

Not so much interpretation...hmm...

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

CAIR?
I'm not even going to their site.
do you know about them?

[vyo476]

CAIR?
I'm not even going to their site.
do you know about them?

The Council on American-Islamic Relations? Sure. It must really help you maintain your point of view, being able to completely disregard sources that prove that you're one-sided view of Islam isn't "the one and only way."

Let's see, we have a "Fatwa Against Terrorism," a "Not in the Name of Islam Petition," condemnations both of specific terrorist actions (9/11) and general terror tactics (suicide bombing).

Here's a really interesting one: http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/ExpertsSaybinLadenIsDistortingIslamicLaw.aspx

Oh, right. You won't read it. It might mess with your set-in-stone world view. Sorry.

[bewitched]

The Council on American-Islamic Relations? Sure. It must really help you maintain your point of view, being able to completely disregard sources that prove that you're one-sided view of Islam isn't "the one and only way."

Let's see, we have a "Fatwa Against Terrorism," a "Not in the Name of Islam Petition," condemnations both of specific terrorist actions (9/11) and general terror tactics (suicide bombing).

Here's a really interesting one: http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/ExpertsSaybinLadenIsDistortingIslamicLaw.aspx

Oh, right. You won't read it. It might mess with your set-in-stone world view. Sorry.
read up on CAIR. they are a bunch of crooks.
and they are spreading propaganda all over the US.
they supported Al Samy and the flying imams... and Hezballah... do some research.
I have no set in stone worldview, but I do know Islam from the inside. many people won't and can't (Salman Rushdie) speak about it, especially woman.

you are an American, right?

[vyo476]

read up on CAIR. they are a bunch of crooks.

This is a libelious statement unless you post something to back it up.

and they are spreading propaganda all over the US.

I would imagine your definition of "propaganda" involves only things you don't agree with.

they supported Al Samy and the flying imams... and Hezballah... do some research.

Of course they supported the flying imams. If litigation is an act of terrorism today then you're going to be making a lot of terror-related arrests.

As for Hezbollah, I can't find any ties in online sources between the two groups. There was an allegation that CAIR was founded using money from a Hamas front group, but that claim is unsubstantiated.

I have no set in stone worldview, but I do know Islam from the inside. many people won't and can't (Salman Rushdie) speak about it, especially woman.

Okay, fine, I'll ask. How do you "know Islam from the inside"?

you are an American, right?

I am an American, yes.

[bewitched]

This is a libelious statement unless you post something to back it up.

I would imagine your definition of "propaganda" involves only things you don't agree with.

Of course they supported the flying imams. If litigation is an act of terrorism today then you're going to be making a lot of terror-related arrests.

As for Hezbollah, I can't find any ties in online sources between the two groups. There was an allegation that CAIR was founded using money from a Hamas front group, but that claim is unsubstantiated.

Okay, fine, I'll ask. How do you "know Islam from the inside"?

I am an American, yes.

let's see... here's one of the more recent public lies from CAIR
"CAIR’s national executive director, Nihad Awad, spoke eloquently and firmly when he denounced the Los Angles Police Department’s plan to map Muslim communities in the Greater Los Angeles Area. "We call on the LAPD to scrap the project of mapping Muslims," he said. "We want the police to enlist and not blacklist, support and not report members of our community," he added.

Awad pointed out that of the seven million American Muslims, Al-Qaeda was not able to recruit a single person, proof that the American Muslim community is patriotic."
http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/18056/430/

guess he doesn't know about Adam (fatty boy) Gahdan, Jose Padilla, or Johnny Walker Lindh... among others. the act of intentional omission is another example of taqqiya.

if you buy the bull$hit as an American you are an apologist.
Islam needs to stand up and make some changes. maybe they could start with this:
1. Focus their indignation on Muslims committing violent acts in the name of Islam, not on non-Muslims reporting on those acts.
2. Renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution (or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state) with Sharia even by peaceful means.
3. Teach Muslims the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.
4. Begin comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world to teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.
5. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials to identify and apprehend jihadists within Western Muslim communities

[Coyote]

read up on CAIR. they are a bunch of crooks.
and they are spreading propaganda all over the US.
they supported Al Samy and the flying imams... and Hezballah... do some research.
I have no set in stone worldview, but I do know Islam from the inside. many people won't and can't (Salman Rushdie) speak about it, especially woman.

you are an American, right?

That's what you say....but anyone can say anything on an internet forum:o

[bewitched]

That's what you say....but anyone can say anything on an internet forum:o

I've studied Islam for about 40 years and I work with those who have even more experience.
what I see when I am teaching is that there are many Americans who are under-educated on the subject, even those in the intelligence departments in DC who are suppose to be experts.

[Coyote]

let's see... here's one of the more recent public lies from CAIR
"CAIR’s national executive director, Nihad Awad, spoke eloquently and firmly when he denounced the Los Angles Police Department’s plan to map Muslim communities in the Greater Los Angeles Area. "We call on the LAPD to scrap the project of mapping Muslims," he said. "We want the police to enlist and not blacklist, support and not report members of our community," he added.

Awad pointed out that of the seven million American Muslims, Al-Qaeda was not able to recruit a single person, proof that the American Muslim community is patriotic."
http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/18056/430/

guess he doesn't know about Adam (fatty boy) Gahdan, Jose Padilla, or Johnny Walker Lindh... among others. the act of intentional omission is another example of taqqiya.

if you buy the bull$hit as an American you are an apologist.
Islam needs to stand up and make some changes. maybe they could start with this:
1. Focus their indignation on Muslims committing violent acts in the name of Islam, not on non-Muslims reporting on those acts.
2. Renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution (or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state) with Sharia even by peaceful means.
3. Teach Muslims the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.
4. Begin comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world to teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.
5. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials to identify and apprehend jihadists within Western Muslim communities

Muzammil Siddiqi
Chairman of North American Fiqh Council
Muzammil Siddiqi is Chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America,a body tasked with interpreting religious law throughout the continent.
Terrorism, suicide bombings or any other kind of bombings, shootings or violence that target civilians are totally forbidden in Islam and there is no justification for these acts. A body of Muslim jurists known as the Fiqh Council of North America has issued a strong Fatwa (religious ruling) against terrorism and suicide bombing. This Fatwa has been endorsed by hundreds of Islamic centers and mosques throughout North America.

The Fatwa said:
1. All acts of terrorism targeting the civilians are Haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is Haram (forbidden) for a Muslim to cooperate or associate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the duty of Muslims to cooperate with the law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.

Those who invoke Islam to justify any acts of extremism, aggression or violence are not only committing sin but they are also defaming Islam and misrepresenting the majority of Muslims who are peaceful and law abiding. Their acts of violence have brought a lot of harm to many innocent human beings, including many Muslims. These foolish and desperate acts have not done any good to the alleged cause or causes that the perpetrators claim to defend.

[Coyote]

let's see... here's one of the more recent public lies from CAIR
"CAIR’s national executive director, Nihad Awad, spoke eloquently and firmly when he denounced the Los Angles Police Department’s plan to map Muslim communities in the Greater Los Angeles Area. "We call on the LAPD to scrap the project of mapping Muslims," he said. "We want the police to enlist and not blacklist, support and not report members of our community," he added.

Awad pointed out that of the seven million American Muslims, Al-Qaeda was not able to recruit a single person, proof that the American Muslim community is patriotic."
http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/18056/430/

guess he doesn't know about Adam (fatty boy) Gahdan, Jose Padilla, or Johnny Walker Lindh... among others. the act of intentional omission is another example of taqqiya.

if you buy the bull$hit as an American you are an apologist.
Islam needs to stand up and make some changes. maybe they could start with this:
1. Focus their indignation on Muslims committing violent acts in the name of Islam, not on non-Muslims reporting on those acts.
2. Renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution (or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state) with Sharia even by peaceful means.
3. Teach Muslims the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.
4. Begin comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world to teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.
5. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials to identify and apprehend jihadists within Western Muslim communities

Seven million American Muslims and Al Queda can only recruit a handful?

Speaking out:

Muzammil Siddiqi
Chairman of North American Fiqh Council
Muzammil Siddiqi is Chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America,a body tasked with interpreting religious law throughout the continent.
Terrorism, suicide bombings or any other kind of bombings, shootings or violence that target civilians are totally forbidden in Islam and there is no justification for these acts. A body of Muslim jurists known as the Fiqh Council of North America has issued a strong Fatwa (religious ruling) against terrorism and suicide bombing. This Fatwa has been endorsed by hundreds of Islamic centers and mosques throughout North America.

The Fatwa said:
1. All acts of terrorism targeting the civilians are Haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is Haram (forbidden) for a Muslim to cooperate or associate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the duty of Muslims to cooperate with the law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.

Those who invoke Islam to justify any acts of extremism, aggression or violence are not only committing sin but they are also defaming Islam and misrepresenting the majority of Muslims who are peaceful and law abiding. Their acts of violence have brought a lot of harm to many innocent human beings, including many Muslims. These foolish and desperate acts have not done any good to the alleged cause or causes that the perpetrators claim to defend.

[Coyote]

yes, dar ul Islam is a physical place. and dar ul Harb is places like the WTC. to understand why we were attacked, and will continue to be attacked, it is important to understand how they think of dar ul Islam, and it is a physical place. Israel happens to be a little scab in the middle of this physical place btw.

again, there isn't as much "interpretation" in Islam as in Christianity as you seem to be thinking (western). dar ul Islam also contains governments as well as population and territory. the same way "jihad" is suppose to be a personal inner struggle (interpreted by Christians and the West)... it isn't, it is physical battle. taqqiya allows the Christians to believe the "spiritual" crap about Islam, it is legal deceit that is blessed by Allah.

You're reiterating propaganda.

[Coyote]

not exactly, the vast majority of muslims believe in dar ul Islam. to them it is not terrorism. their belief is that non-muslims are infidels and deserve death is a pure and popular belief.
Christians believe in pluralism and don't want to kill off all the other religions.

as for carrying it out... muslims are killing daily for this belief whereas Christians are not.

To many muslims - particularly westernized, dar ul Islam is an abstract concept. If you're talking about fundies - well, they'll believe all kinds of crazy things. Just look at what Christian reconstructionists would do if they had the power. There is no pluralism in their agenda.

[bewitched]

You're reiterating propaganda.

you will be caught with your pants down.

[Coyote]

I'm not wearing pants.

[bewitched]

I'm not wearing pants.

yay.
:)

[bewitched]

oh and CAIR is like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton... same jumping of the $ bandwagon but a little more dangerous because of the apologists and sympathizers in our government.

[vyo476]

let's see... here's one of the more recent public lies from CAIR
"CAIR’s national executive director, Nihad Awad, spoke eloquently and firmly when he denounced the Los Angles Police Department’s plan to map Muslim communities in the Greater Los Angeles Area. "We call on the LAPD to scrap the project of mapping Muslims," he said. "We want the police to enlist and not blacklist, support and not report members of our community," he added.

Awad pointed out that of the seven million American Muslims, Al-Qaeda was not able to recruit a single person, proof that the American Muslim community is patriotic."
http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/18056/430/

guess he doesn't know about Adam (fatty boy) Gahdan, Jose Padilla, or Johnny Walker Lindh... among others.

Interesting. That is a gaff, certainly. Doesn't make him a crook, though.

the act of intentional omission is another example of taqqiya.

Nice try. You're using a modern interpretation of taqiyya to justify this, yes? Traditionally taqiyya is the denial of faith. CAIR doesn't deny that they're Muslims. Are you a traditionalist or a modernist?

if you buy the bull$hit as an American you are an apologist.

Continue believing your own brand of excrement and you'll just wind up helping to write the next chapter in a long history of discrimination and mistrust.

1. Focus their indignation on Muslims committing violent acts in the name of Islam, not on non-Muslims reporting on those acts.

They're doing that.

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

2. Renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution (or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state) with Sharia even by peaceful means.

http://www.secularislam.org/blog/SI_Blog.php

3. Teach Muslims the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/Interfaith.aspx

4. Begin comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world to teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.

http://mahdibray.com/2007/10/28/expert-presents-islam-as-tolerent/

5. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials to identify and apprehend jihadists within Western Muslim communities

Let's see. You've identified three Americans who joined AQ. Of the three, only one was captured in the US, and he was caught at O'Hare Airport as he was entering the country. If there are "jihadists" in Western communities, either they're going overseas before plying their trade (like Lindh and Gadahn) or they're being awfully quiet.

[bewitched]

Interesting. That is a gaff, certainly. Doesn't make him a crook, though.



Nice try. You're using a modern interpretation of taqiyya to justify this, yes? Traditionally taqiyya is the denial of faith. CAIR doesn't deny that they're Muslims. Are you a traditionalist or a modernist?



Continue believing your own brand of excrement and you'll just wind up helping to write the next chapter in a long history of discrimination and mistrust.



They're doing that.

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx



http://www.secularislam.org/blog/SI_Blog.php



http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/Interfaith.aspx



http://mahdibray.com/2007/10/28/expert-presents-islam-as-tolerent/



Let's see. You've identified three Americans who joined AQ. Of the three, only one was captured in the US, and he was caught at O'Hare Airport as he was entering the country. If there are "jihadists" in Western communities, either they're going overseas before plying their trade (like Lindh and Gadahn) or they're being awfully quiet.

unfortunately you don't have the ability to see into the future.
sorry for you.

[Jeugenen]

ISLAMOFASCIST AND JUDEOFASCIST SYMBIOSIS


The Islamofascists, in perpetual quest of greater wealth and power, rant to incite the impoverished Islamic peoples to violence against the notorious injustices of the powerful Judeofascist land robbers. The Judeofascists, in perpetual quest for greater wealth and power, wail and lobby to incite the American People into providing military protection against this persecution by outraged Islamofascists. To add credibility to these rantings and wailings, intermittent battles are fought. The result is that these clever Islamofascists and Judeofascists do gain great wealth and power, at the expense of the Arab, Persian, and American peoples.


The continuous illegal sacrifice of the wealth and blood of the American People on behalf Israel is all that perpetuates this destructive symbiotic relationship between the Islamofascists and the Judeofascists. But when, in the normal course of the American Cultural War, the Neo-Cons/Neo-Libs are finally expelled by the Reagan Conservatives and Kennedy Liberals from their positions of power, the economic and military support for the Judeofascists will finally end; and that will end the support for the Islamofascists. The end of the era of Neo-Con/Neo-Lib military intervention in the affairs of the Arab and Persian peoples shall be the start of an era of constructive relations with the American People.


The Judeofascists, who live in a glass house surrounded by Islamofascists, could continue fight for survival politically and militarily, until nuclear armed Israel finally becomes the site of a second great Judeocide, Holocaust II; or, they could offer sincere apologies, and generous economic reparations for the stolen land, damaged infrastructure, and losses of innocent lives; to finally win for themselves by just and peaceful means, what they cannot win by unjust and violent means.


Shall the World be cheering, and the Diaspora wailing; or, shall the World and the Diaspora be cheering?

[DemocratLupis]

men under satans legs in mental state dont forget Christians are against satan
men of satans legs enter mental state...Muslims...

[The Scotsman]

men under satans legs in mental state dont forget Christians are against satan
men of satans legs enter mental state...Muslims...


huhhhh.........is it just me or does anyone else not know what the frig this is about!!??