ISLAM is EVIL !

[DemocratLupis]

http://www.answering-islam.org/Walid/gog.htm

http://www.banislam.net/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski76.html

http://www.islamisevilandinhuman.com/8/


Satan=Allah

The Devil=Tele-us

[palerider]

All one need do is look at the daily news to determine that islam is evil. The apologists for islam never cease to amaze me.

[DemocratLupis]

agreed !

[vyo476]

You treat "evil" as an absolute. Evil is defined by society and our two societies - Western and Islamic - define it very, very differently. By our standards they may be considered evil (although I don't consider most Muslims to be evil, but that's my personal opinion). By their standards they consider us to be evil. There is no way for either of us to objectively refer to the other as evil because there is no absolute definition of the term.

[tiredofnonsense]

You treat "evil" as an absolute. Evil is defined by society and our two societies - Western and Islamic - define it very, very differently. By our standards they may be considered evil (although I don't consider most Muslims to be evil, but that's my personal opinion). By their standards they consider us to be evil. There is no way for either of us to objectively refer to the other as evil because there is no absolute definition of the term.

By most muslim standards the Islamist arent all that great, the Islamist make up only about 0.02% of the population. Most are more moderate and just want to worship as they please and live in peace.

[9sublime]

I am very good friends with two Muslims. They don't fight, they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't do drugs, they revoke terrorism, and they don't ever try and force their religion on me (however, a lot of Christian people I know try and do that).

Tell me what is so evil about my friends.

[johnflesh]

Eh I don't know, evil is a word that often defines a reason to be bad, deadly, terrorist, and personally I don't think anyone has a good enough reason to be evil and there is little validity to the word itself.

How about you be more specific in who exactly are the evil ones. A whole religion? Or rationally speaking, certain groups or people in such religion?

Its fairly easy to just walk on saying, 'well their evil' but ultimately it is just a mass generalization that isn't true and has little validity itself.

Every religion possess some evil elements I am sure, some more than others, especially lately but in the same context, sweeping generalizations however, can be labeled the same thing as evil since ultimately they are destructive, ignorant, and a cop out.

[The Founders Intent]

I am very good friends with two Muslims. They don't fight, they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't do drugs, they revoke terrorism, and they don't ever try and force their religion on me (however, a lot of Christian people I know try and do that).

Tell me what is so evil about my friends.

You've had Christians try to FORCE their religion on you? You know very well that isn't true. They may bring up their religion and try to introduce their faith to you, but they're not forcing anything. Forcing is if you don't join I slaughter your family or throw you in prison. I think you have failed to make your point.

[vyo476]

By most muslim standards the Islamist arent all that great, the Islamist make up only about 0.02% of the population. Most are more moderate and just want to worship as they please and live in peace.

Regardless, their culture is quite separate from ours, with a whole different values set. Who are we to judge them? If they come here and start blowing us up, then yes - that gives us the authority to punish those who have violated us. Otherwise...calling Islam evil is exactly like all those lovely Europeans who justified slavery by calling black Africans "savages" or the Americans who justified Indian removal the same way.

Note that some Indian tribes in America (we arrogantly refer to them as the "Four Civilized Tribes" today) did make an attempt at "modernization" after the USA took the reigns of government in North America. Those four tribes were deported anyway, along a little something we call the Trail of Tears. Why were they deported? Why, because they were Indians, and no matter what modern attempts they made at reform, Indians were still just savages to the American people.

Similarly, modern Muslims who are peaceful and just want to be left alone are still associated with Islam, which in pale rider's eyes is "evil." Never mind that they don't do the horrible things the extremists do - their association with Islam is enough. Is this a fair representation of their religion? No, it's a Western representation - a biased interpretation of a foreign culture in which we judge them by our values.

Islam is not "evil." It's just different.

[Rokerijdude11]

The American Indian Analogy is quite appropriate in this case

[9sublime]

You've had Christians try to FORCE their religion on you? You know very well that isn't true. They may bring up their religion and try to introduce their faith to you, but they're not forcing anything. Forcing is if you don't join I slaughter your family or throw you in prison. I think you have failed to make your point.

Excuse me, but who do you think you are telling me what has happened in my life. TRUST ME, because I've lived it, I REGULARLY get Christians forcing their religious beliefs on me, while I've never had a Muslim do it. So IT IS TRUE, what do you think you are, some kind of superhuman who sees everything in peoples lifes? Jesus bloody Christ.

And my Muslim friends have never done anything that you associate the evils of Islam with. I have made a point, while you have decided that you know what happened in my life...

[Kelly]

"Satan=Allah"

"The Devil=Tele-us"

Typical 2-demsional thinking!

[Kelly]

"All one need do is look at the daily news to determine that islam is evil. The apologists for islam never cease to amaze me."

More 2-dimensional thinking!
"Oh...the World is black and white...you're either with us or against us...you either believe what I do or you're wrong...all Muslims are evil terrorists...blah, blah, blah."--My impression of Democratlupis and Plaerider.

[Kelly]

You're absolutely right 9sublime. I've never had any of my Syrian Muslim, African Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist (well except for one guy that's pretty stubborn about Buddhism being the only way) friends ever come close to forcing their views on me. On the other hand, have you ever had a theological conversation with a Southern Baptist, a Pentecostal, or any of these 'non-denominational' folks? Whoa! Have you ever received mail flyers from the Mormons or ever been visited by the Jehova's Witnesses? Um...I'm CERTAIN Founders Intent has absolutely no idea what he/she is talking about telling you that Christians haven't forced their views on you (I'm Christian by the way, so don't think I'm biased against them...they DO force their stuff on others more than I've seen anyone else do period).

[9sublime]

Well Founders Intent, are you going to come back to what I said, you could say something like "You've never visited London" to me seeing as you know so much about whats happened in my life.

[jb_1430]

Koran

2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

[4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9.12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[25.52] So do not follow the unbelievers, and strive against them a mighty striving with it.

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

MARK

[Coyote]

Anyone can cherry pick quotes from a religious text and support some pretty monstrous things. The problem is - they are meaningless when you take them out of historical and cultural context and out of the context of the entire passages you snipped them from.

You'd be surprised at the nasty, brutal, murderous and intolerant material that can be cherrypicked from the Bible.

[Grounded]

Anyone can cherry pick quotes from a religious text and support some pretty monstrous things. The problem is - they are meaningless when you take them out of historical and cultural context and out of the context of the entire passages you snipped them from.

You'd be surprised at the nasty, brutal, murderous and intolerant material that can be cherrypicked from the Bible.

I agree with Coyote.

Quotes out of context can be used to support anything.

[9sublime]

jb 1430 do you really think you're clever by taking quotes like that out context, or ones that the average Muslim doesn't follow and ridicules as much as you stoning people or not wearing clothes of two different fibres as a Christian.

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm

there you go. Christianity evils, so all Christians are evil and obviously get actively involved in this kind of stuff. Bollocks. You're an idiot.

[jb_1430]

"That this might not be so easy was discovered by Jefferson and John
Adams when they went to call on Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador
Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. They asked him by what right he extorted money
and took slaves in this way. As Jefferson later reported to Secretary
of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws
of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations
who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it
was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be
found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and
that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to
Paradise."
http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/fr/rss/

MARK

[Coyote]

"That this might not be so easy was discovered by Jefferson and John
Adams when they went to call on Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador
Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. They asked him by what right he extorted money
and took slaves in this way. As Jefferson later reported to Secretary
of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws
of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations
who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it
was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be
found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and
that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to
Paradise."
http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/fr/rss/



MARK

And your point is?

You do realize this was over 200 years ago?

[jb_1430]

This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine
attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth....
This explanation of the above verse by the Prophet-peace be on him - makes it clear that obedience to laws and judgments is a sort of worship, and anyone who does this is considered out of this religion. It is taking some men as lords over others, while this religion has come to annihilate such practices, and it declares that all the people of the earth should become free of servitude to anyone other than God....
According to the Islamic concept and in actuality, God's rule on earth can be established only through the Islamic system, as it is the only system ordained by God for all human beings, whether they be rulers or ruled, black or white, poor or rich, ignorant or learned....
Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom. Only in this manner can the way of life be wholly dedicated to
God, so that neither any human authority nor the question of servitude remains, as is the case in all other systems which are based on man's servitude to man.

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/index_2.asp
Chapters 3,4,5

That was written in the 1950s
MARK

[jb_1430]

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

Bin Laden 1998

MARK

[Coyote]

This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine
attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth....
This explanation of the above verse by the Prophet-peace be on him - makes it clear that obedience to laws and judgments is a sort of worship, and anyone who does this is considered out of this religion. It is taking some men as lords over others, while this religion has come to annihilate such practices, and it declares that all the people of the earth should become free of servitude to anyone other than God....
According to the Islamic concept and in actuality, God's rule on earth can be established only through the Islamic system, as it is the only system ordained by God for all human beings, whether they be rulers or ruled, black or white, poor or rich, ignorant or learned....
Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom. Only in this manner can the way of life be wholly dedicated to
God, so that neither any human authority nor the question of servitude remains, as is the case in all other systems which are based on man's servitude to man.

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/index_2.asp
Chapters 3,4,5

That was written in the 1950s
MARK

Out of context quoting does not equal facts. Even if it's only 50 years ago rather than 200.

Or shall I find some really nasty Christian riffraff to post for comparison?

I still fail to see what your point is.

[Coyote]

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

Bin Laden 1998

MARK

So, let me understand this correctly: you feel the words of extremists are representative of the mainstream of a relgion?

[jb_1430]

jb 1430 do you really think you're clever by taking quotes like that out context, or ones that the average Muslim doesn't follow and ridicules as much as you stoning people or not wearing clothes of two different fibres as a Christian.



The difference is that Christians are not stoning to death anybody. Muslims are. I am forced to live in the real world, not the theoretical. Ya IDIOT!! MARK

[ArmChair General]

The difference is that Christians are not stoning to death anybody. Muslims are. I am forced to live in the real world, not the theoretical. Ya IDIOT!! MARK

OH really?

I guess you never heard of the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda, ran by a former alter boy.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm

Well I guess your right, i havent heard of them stoning people to death. Though these freinds of Jesus do take children as sex slaves, slice off womens breasts and basically murder and destroy all in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Multigraph]

All organized religion are evil!

[Coyote]

The difference is that Christians are not stoning to death anybody. Muslims are. I am forced to live in the real world, not the theoretical. Ya IDIOT!! MARK

There are Christians that want to stone people to death.

They would if they didn't happen to live under secular governments.

The problem isn't the religion per se - but the mixing of religion into government. (among a lot of other things)

[ArmChair General]

But without a doubt, groups like the LRA couldn't exist without the other, way scarier kind of Christian soldier: the missionary. If missionaries hadn't penetrated central africa, there'd be no "former altar boys" to work with, and the killing would be left to pagans, amateurs. The missionary is stage one of the Christian war plan. It's a good, simple plan and they've stuck to it for round about 2,000 years:

1. Send in the missionaries to **** with the locals. Tell 'em their Gods are wimps, their clothes are porn, their food is ****. Keep it up till somebody gets pissed off enough to grab an AK (or blowgun or warclub or wok) and martyrize a missionary or two. It helps if at least one of the shot-up missionaries is a nice plain white lady, preferably from the midwest.

2. Splatter this "atrocity" over every TV and newspaper on the planet, then send in the Rangers (as "advisors," of course) and wipe out every dirty pagan murderer in the place.

One dead missionary is worth a dozen live ones. You fax their picture around the parishes and everybody forks up more money in the name of the dear departed, now simmering in the bellies of the fuzzy-wuzzies.

You college types think that old-style missionary tearjerker story's finished. It's alive and well, lemme tell you. Take the two missionaries who got shot up in Mindanao a few years back, in the process of being "rescued" from this smalltime Muslim separatist group. I saw their pictures: classic horse-faced Kansas morons. (****, white people get ugly fast! They're cute when they're little, but damn, by the time they're 30!!) The husband got killed, but his bucktoothed fatassed hymnsinging wife was only grazed.

Goddamn Muslims! Learn to shoot straight, you jerkoffs! Is there a single goddamn Muslim on the planet who can handle a rifle, for Christ's sake?

Or Allah's, for that matter

[vyo476]

Hey Mr. lb, the Muslims aren't a part of our culture! As evil is defined by society, they define "evil" for themselves - and guess what, we're it! As far as they're concerned we're as evil as you can come, just like you're convinced they're evil.

All this finger pointing..."He's evil!" "No he's evil!" "No he's evil!" That really doesn't accomplish anything other than fostering international hatred. Maybe it'd be better to point that finger at the large majority of the 1.4 billion Muslims in the world who don't blow other people up.

Calling them evil by your own cultural definition is (as I stated earlier in this thread and everyone but Roker ignored me) as fair as the early American colonists calling the Indians savages and driving them off the land. All that cross-cultural intolerance resulted in a whole boatload of misery, some of which has lasted into the present day. Do we really need to repeat that sort of thing?

[jb_1430]

The problem isn't the religion per se - but the mixing of religion into government. (among a lot of other things)

The problem you are missing is that in Islam, religion and government are one in the same.


Khilafah is one of the most important issues in Islam, many
versus in Quran and many Hadiths of the Prophet ordered Muslims
to establish such a system. Ruling by Islam is the most frequent
issue discussed in Quran after the belief and creed. Therefore,
Khilafah was discussed by many Muslim scholars, the following are
the definition of some of them to Khilafah.

1: Ibn Khaldoon defined it as: A representation, of the one
who has the right to adopt the divine rules, aimed at
protecting the Deen and ruling the world (Dunia) with it.

2: Al-Mawirdi defined it as: Succession of the Prophethood
aimed at protecting the Deen and ruling the world (Dunia).

3: Taqiudine al-Nabhani, (founder of Hizb at-Tahreer) defined
it as: A total leadership for all the Muslims aimed at
implementing the Shariah of Islam and carrying the Message
of Islam to the world.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~luqman/Belief/Khilafah/one.html


or to quote Qutb from an earlier post.


Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom.




MARK

[jb_1430]

So, let me understand this correctly: you feel the words of extremists are representative of the mainstream of a relgion?

I believe the topic is "Islam", not muslims. Fortunately not all Muslims are "fundamentalist" who strictly follow the fundamentals of Islam as expressed in their written doctrine.
"Extremist" is one of those words, similiar to "evil". What is evil to me is likely different than what is evil to an Islamic fundamentalist. MARK

[ArmChair General]

I believe the topic is "Islam", not muslims. Fortunately not all Muslims are "fundamentalist" who strictly follow the fundamentals of Islam as expressed in their written doctrine.
"Extremist" is one of those words, similiar to "evil". What is evil to me is likely different than what is evil to an Islamic fundamentalist. MARK

So your a moral relativist then?

[Coyote]

The problem you are missing is that in Islam, religion and government are one in the same.



or to quote Qutb from an earlier post.




MARK

They are in any fundamentalist form of the three Abrahamic faiths.

[jb_1430]

Hey Mr. lb, the Muslims aren't a part of our culture! As evil is defined by society, they define "evil" for themselves - and guess what, we're it! As far as they're concerned we're as evil as you can come, just like you're convinced they're evil.



I wouldnt argue with you on that point. We in the US are the pinnacle of what Qutb refers to as Jahiliyyah. Qutb was educated in the US. He found our culture repulsive and antithetical to Islam. The pinnacle of man's "servitude to his own desires," MARK



Jahiliyyah, on the other hand, is one man's lordship over another,...
It always takes the form of a living movement in a society which has its own leadership,its own concepts and values, and its own traditions, habits and feelings. It is an organized society and there is a close cooperation and loyalty between its individuals, and it is always ready and alive to defend its existence consciously or unconsciously...
This movement(Islam) uses the methods of preaching and persuasion for reforming ideas and beliefs and it uses physical power and Jihaad for abolishing the organizations and authorities of the Jahili system which prevents people from reforming their ideas and beliefs but forces them to obey their erroneous ways and make them serve human lords instead of the Almighty....
It became incumbent upon Islam to strike back and release man throughout the earth from the grip of these usurpers. The eternal struggle for the freedom of man will continue until the religion is purified for God...
Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom.

[vyo476]

I wouldnt argue with you on that point. We in the US are the pinnacle of what Qutb refers to as Jahiliyyah. Qutb was educated in the US. He found our culture repulsive and antithetical to Islam. The pinnacle of man's "servitude to his own desires," MARK

Then don't you see how pointless it is to call them evil?

[jb_1430]

They are in any fundamentalist form of the three Abrahamic faiths.

Fallwell just died yesterday. He is a christian fundamentalist. They usually advocate voting Republican and returning our government and society back to the fifties, not a theocracy. As well the written christian doctrine doesnt advocate any such thing. The christians, according to doctrine "Leave to Ceasar, that which is Ceasar's". MARK

[jb_1430]

Then don't you see how pointless it is to call them evil?


Im an American and an atheist, I consider them evil. Original post and links refered to a religious conception of evil. I dont. I consider waging jihad to restore Islamic rule to the empire, and then the world to be antithetical to a modern, advanced civilization that can provide a pleasant life for myself and future generations. And therefore EVIL!!!!!! MARK

[jb_1430]

So your a moral relativist then?

Certainly not. Islamic doctrine that advocates Islamic rule for all of mankind IS EVIL, even though muslim fundamentalist consider the same thing to be the pinnacle of glory to allah. They are wrong, I am right. MARK



Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

[Coyote]

Fallwell just died yesterday. He is a christian fundamentalist. They usually advocate voting Republican and returning our government and society back to the fifties, not a theocracy. As well the written christian doctrine doesnt advocate any such thing. The christians, according to doctrine "Leave to Ceasar, that which is Ceasar's". MARK

Hardly...

Consider the following from a rather significant minority of the American Christian culture:

"It is difficult to assess the influence of Reconstructionist thought with any accuracy. Because it is so genuinely radical, most leaders of the Religious Right are careful to distance themselves from it. At the same time, it clearly holds some appeal for many of them. One undoubtedly spoke for others when he confessed, 'Though we hide their books under the bed, we read them just the same.' In addition, several key leaders have acknowledged an intellectual debt to the theonomists. Jerry Falwell and D. James Kennedy have endorsed Reconstructionist books. Rushdoony has appeared on Kennedy's television program and the 700 Club several times. Pat Robertson makes frequent use of 'dominion' language; his book, The Secret Kingdom, has often been cited for its theonomy elements; and pluralists were made uncomfortable when, during his presidential campaign, he said he 'would only bring Christians and Jews into the government,' as well as when he later wrote, 'There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.' And Jay Grimstead, who leads the Coalition on Revival, which brings Reconstructionists together with more mainstream evangelicals, has said, 'I don't call myself [a Reconstructionist],' but 'A lot of us are coming to realize that the Bible is God's standard of morality . . . in all points of history . . . and for all societies, Christian and non-Christian alike. . . . It so happens that Rushdoony, Bahnsen, and North understood that sooner.' He added, 'There are a lot of us floating around in Christian leadership James Kennedy is one of them-who don't go all the way with the theonomy thing, but who want to rebuild America based on the Bible.'" (Martin 1996:354)

Among the practices they would legislate:
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm)

If they gained control of the US or Canadian federal government, there would be many changes:

The use of the death penalty would be greatly expanded, when the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied. People will be executed for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, homosexual behavior, idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery (some translations say Witchcraft), etc. The Bible requires those found guilty of these "crimes" to be either stoned to death or burned alive. Reconstructionists are divided on the execution method to be used.

A church or congregation which does not accept the Mosaic Law has another god before them, and is thus guilty of idolatry. That would be punishable by death. That would include all non-Christian religious organizations. At the present time, non-Christians total two-thirds of the human race.

The status of women would be reduced to almost that of a slave as described in the Hebrew Scriptures. A woman would initially be considered the property of her father; after marriage, she would be considered the property of her husband.

[Fred]

Im a muslim your all incorrect in your meanderings

[vyo476]

Im an American and an atheist, I consider them evil. Original post and links refered to a religious conception of evil. I dont. I consider waging jihad to restore Islamic rule to the empire, and then the world to be antithetical to a modern, advanced civilization that can provide a pleasant life for myself and future generations. And therefore EVIL!!!!!! MARK

They have their civilization, you have yours. A few people in theirs like to blow us up; a few people in ours like to do the same to them. Most of them just want to be left to their beliefs; most of us just want to be left to ours. Calling them "evil" is antithetical to easing tension.

[ArmChair General]

Im a muslim your all incorrect in your meanderings

Isn't there a market somewhere where you should be blowing yourself up in?

[Fred]

Praise be to allah Infidel

death will find you in the deepest recess's of the earth

[Cheshire Cat]

Isn't there a market somewhere where you should be blowing yourself up in?

He tried to blow up a bus, but burned his lips on the tailpipe.

[Coyote]

He tried to blow up a bus, but burned his lips on the tailpipe.

:p :D :D :D

[Fred]

Joke if you will

How many of your arrogant children are dying at the hands of my soldiers? you think your zionist crusade will get you what you want? this is the war of all wars the Jihad that we have waited for so long


You dogs will pay i must go now to eat my fallafell

[ArmChair General]

Joke if you will

How many of your arrogant children are dying at the hands of my soldiers? you think your zionist crusade will get you what you want? this is the war of all wars the Jihad that we have waited for so long


You dogs will pay i must go now to eat my fallafell

So do you have running water?

[jb_1430]

Hardly...



Yeah, the Dominionist and reconstructionist and the like are way out there. Not as much as religioustolerance.org would have you believe. Fallwell isnt either. More of a fundamentalist Baptist. Exerpt from your link demonstrates a major difference between jihad in the ways of allah, and Christian reconstructionist. MARK


They feel that the power of God's word will bring about this conversion. No armed force or insurrection will be needed; in fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan. People will willingly accept it. All that needs to be done is to properly explain it to them.

[jb_1430]

Im a muslim your all incorrect in your meanderings

Ive said very little and instead have relied upon the words of Muhammad,
Sidi Haji Abdrahaman, Ibn Khaldoon, Al-Mawirdi, Taqiudine al-Nabhani,
and Sayyid Qutb. They are Muslims as well. MARK

[jb_1430]

Joke if you will

How many of your arrogant children are dying at the hands of my soldiers?

Oh, maybe one for each 50-60 of your soldiers that we kill. MARK

[9sublime]

Armchair what the ****?? Your a racist ****er, just as I was almost starting to respect some of your points. I've got Muslim friends who hate radical Islam, and they don't blow themselves up OR stone people. All of you are so misinformed and scared of everything you arn't part of eh?

[ArmChair General]

Armchair what the ****?? Your a racist ****er, just as I was almost starting to respect some of your points. I've got Muslim friends who hate radical Islam, and they don't blow themselves up OR stone people. All of you are so misinformed and scared of everything you arn't part of eh?


which of my posts are you referring too?

[southside]

honestly, i can't believe this thread is allowed to being continued. this is such a racist mark, just like saying all the black people are retard or something. the americans are so arrogent and full of themselves, think they are right at everything.

[9sublime]

Isn't there a market somewhere where you should be blowing yourself up in?

How about that one.

[jb_1430]

"Racist"??? Which race would that be? Does anybody here even know what race Fred belongs to?
The Muslim apologist always drag out this charge of racism whenever Islam is criticized. MARK

[9sublime]

I don't favour Muslims over anyone else. All races and religions have their faults and piss me off, even my own, but at the same time I can't stand segregation or racism.

[jb_1430]

I don't favour Muslims over anyone else. All races and religions have their faults and piss me off, even my own, but at the same time I can't stand segregation or racism.


What hypocracy. You claim-
"religion has all the characteristics of a form of insanity", and yet when someone criticizes Islam, they are labeled a racist????? MARK

[9sublime]

No, thats not hypocrasy. Its called tolerance.

[Coyote]

"Racist"??? Which race would that be? Does anybody here even know what race Fred belongs to?
The Muslim apologist always drag out this charge of racism whenever Islam is criticized. MARK

You don't know much about Islam do you?

[jb_1430]

No, thats not hypocrasy. Its called tolerance.

Your intolerance of religion is apparent for all to see. Just dont understand this affinity you have for Islam that compels you to come to their defense.
MARK

[jb_1430]

You don't know much about Islam do you?

Actually, I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Islam. Ive read the Koran and all the haddiths. The writings of Hassan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and others. And I know that muslims come in all races. MARK

[ArmChair General]

How about that one.
eh, lighten up, its just a joke.

[9sublime]

Oh I didn't realise you were friends with Fred, sorry.

Anyway JB 1430, I hate religion, but I don't hate religious people. If they keep themselves to themselves, and don't harm me or anyone else, because of their religion, they are fine with me. I've come to Islams defence here because you have said Islam is evil, if the post was Christianity is evil then I would defend Christians. Yes, Islam, like all other religions, causes more harm than good in my opinion, but most Muslims are good people, and so are most Christians.

[Coyote]

Actually, I consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Islam. Ive read the Koran and all the haddiths. The writings of Hassan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and others. And I know that muslims come in all races. MARK

Then why do post individual quotes out of context to support your position? Surely you must know how important context is - if you read, and if you comprehended what you read?

[jb_1430]

Then why do post individual quotes out of context to support your position? Surely you must know how important context is - if you read, and if you comprehended what you read?

Because the context only further supports any assertions Ive made. Thats why nobody has simply provided any context and have instead, repeatedly made the claim that it is out of context, as if the context made any difference.
MARK

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/chapter_1.asp

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

[palerider]

Then why do post individual quotes out of context to support your position? Surely you must know how important context is - if you read, and if you comprehended what you read?

There is no context in the qur'an. The haddith are required to make the book even appear to make any sense at all.

[9sublime]

Because the context only further supports any assertions Ive made. Thats why nobody has simply provided any context and have instead, repeatedly made the claim that it is out of context, as if the context made any difference.



Do we really have to go and find loads of Bible quotes that encourage the slaughtering of non-believers and the stoning of sinners to show you that out of context and in todays world, those quotes are a useless and pathetic argument.

[palerider]

Do we really have to go and find loads of Bible quotes that encourage the slaughtering of non-believers and the stoning of sinners to show you that out of context and in todays world, those quotes are a useless and pathetic argument.


Actually, all of those Old Testament punishments were overturned with the New Testament and the Jews, who don't believe in the New Testament have not stoned anyone to death for almost 1500 years.

The fact is that good muslims are still killing the infidel whenever they can and are escalating the war according to their religion.

[jb_1430]

Do we really have to go and find loads of Bible quotes that encourage the slaughtering of non-believers and the stoning of sinners to show you that out of context and in todays world, those quotes are a useless and pathetic argument.

Unfortunately the verses I qouted are very much in context in todays world. They are being used to this very day to encite this world wide jihad we find ourselves in today.
MARK

[palerider]

Unfortunately the verses I qouted are very much in context in todays world. They are being used to this very day to encite this world wide jihad we find ourselves in today.
MARK


This is something that I simply don't see how islam's apologists can ignore. I mean, if jews and christians were stoning adulterers, then an argument could be made, but such isn't the case. Islam on the other hand, is living and killing by their book today, right now.

One also wonders how tolerant these apologists would be if christians and jews were using the bible to justify random killing of anyone who didn't agree with them.

[vyo476]

Unfortunately the verses I qouted are very much in context in todays world. They are being used to this very day to encite this world wide jihad we find ourselves in today.
MARK

Yes - because the extremists of Islam take it out of context as much as you do.

Notice - "extremist." Not "moderate." Most Muslims do not participate in the violent activities described in the Qu'ran because they interpret those things in a different way than the extremists do.

[palerider]

Yes - because the extremists of Islam take it out of context as much as you do.

Notice - "extremist." Not "moderate." Most Muslims do not participate in the violent activities described in the Qu'ran because they interpret those things in a different way than the extremists do.

And they also don't publicly object because they would identify themselves as infidels and become targets of the good muslims. The qur'an writes a specific prescription for muslims who turn from the will of allah and the will of allah is that all infidels be killed until only allah is worshipped.

[vyo476]

And they also don't publicly object because they would identify themselves as infidels and become targets of the good muslims. The qur'an writes a specific prescription for muslims who turn from the will of allah and the will of allah is that all infidels be killed until only allah is worshipped.

Or they don't publicly object because there is no need for them to. Jihad, to them, is an inner struggle against evil that would permeate their souls. So long as they're not letting evil in (excess and all that other stuff we do so well here in America) they're perfectly good Muslims. So what if their brother Muslims are off killing infidels? It doesn't matter to them.

[jb_1430]

Yes - because the extremists of Islam take it out of context as much as you do.

Notice - "extremist." Not "moderate." Most Muslims do not participate in the violent activities described in the Qu'ran because they interpret those things in a different way than the extremists do.

Feel free to provide this context that you think will change the apparent meaning. MARK

[jb_1430]

Or they don't publicly object because there is no need for them to. Jihad, to them, is an inner struggle against evil that would permeate their souls.


LOLOL!!!! What nonsense. 56 references to Jihad in the haddiths. Here are just the first 8. They are fundamentalist because they adhere to the literal word of their doctrine. They dont take things out of context, because the context also supports their worldwide jihad. This crap about "inner struggle" is just made up bull****.(made up bull **** I wish more muslims would adopt) Read all 56 references to jihad, no other interpretation is possible.
MARK


Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).

Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."

Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."


Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause."

Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
Narrated Aisha (mother of the faithful believers):

I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

[9sublime]

And they also don't publicly object because they would identify themselves as infidels and become targets of the good muslims.

Palerider, this is utter bollocks. We had a whole post on this, in which I proved you wrong. I gave you a load of websites. What do you want me to do? Go around with a camcorder and video some Muslims on the street denouncing terrorism?

[palerider]

Palerider, this is utter bollocks. We had a whole post on this, in which I proved you wrong. I gave you a load of websites. What do you want me to do? Go around with a camcorder and video some Muslims on the street denouncing terrorism?


You gave me web sites. Web sites run by who knows who. My bet would be that they are put up by apologists like you who for some unknown reason feel the need to do for muslims that which they won't do for themselves. ie. clean up thier image. Web sites don't prove a thing.

And no, it isn't necessary. If it were happening, the news would pick it up. Have you noticed that they haven't?

[jb_1430]

Palerider, this is utter bollocks. We had a whole post on this, in which I proved you wrong. I gave you a load of websites. What do you want me to do? Go around with a camcorder and video some Muslims on the street denouncing terrorism?

I went back through all 8 pages of this thread looking for your links. Only one I find is-


http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm

there you go. Christianity evils, so all Christians are evil


Some shiit about-


the widespread promotion of violent Bible teachings.


All the while denying the "violent... teachings" from the Koran, Haddiths and the writings of Sayyid Qutb that Ive provided as some how out of context. Typical.

MARK

[vyo476]

I went back through all 8 pages of this thread looking for your links. Only one I find is-



Some shiit about-



All the while denying the "violent... teachings" from the Koran, Haddiths and the writings of Sayyid Qutb that Ive provided as some how out of context. Typical.

MARK

This isn't the first time we've had this discussion here on the board. Look up a thread called "The problem with Muslims" for more.

[9sublime]

And no, it isn't necessary. If it were happening, the news would pick it up. Have you noticed that they haven't?

I can't imagine Fox News doing that in a hurry.

You wont accpet my websites, and 1 million people rallying against radical Islam in Turkey because you've lost. And I don't see you on the news rallying against peadaphilia, guess that makes you a peadaphile again. Your argument has been proved wrong, but I don't know why I bothered because its fundamentally flawed anyway.

[palerider]

I can't imagine Fox News doing that in a hurry.

You wont accpet my websites, and 1 million people rallying against radical Islam in Turkey because you've lost. And I don't see you on the news rallying against peadaphilia, guess that makes you a peadaphile again. Your argument has been proved wrong, but I don't know why I bothered because its fundamentally flawed anyway.

Once again. In this country pedophilia, supplying materials to pedophiles, or protecting a pedophile will get you locked away for a very long time. Which muslim countrys have made terrorist (jihad) activities illegal?

[ArmChair General]

Once again. In this country pedophilia, supplying materials to pedophiles, or protecting a pedophile will get you locked away for a very long time. Which muslim countrys have made terrorist (jihad) activities illegal?

All of them.

Can you name one muslim country where terrorist activities are legal'?

[Abraxis Axis]

I can't imagine Fox News doing that in a hurry.

You wont accpet my websites, and 1 million people rallying against radical Islam in Turkey because you've lost. And I don't see you on the news rallying against peadaphilia, guess that makes you a peadaphile again. Your argument has been proved wrong, but I don't know why I bothered because its fundamentally flawed anyway.

Does this surprise you? In dealing with arrogance like this you knew what to expect . dont you get it yet? This guy is right about everything. It dosent matter what subject your discussing,he is right and your not. it isnt worth the typing in my opinion

[palerider]

All of them.

Can you name one muslim country where terrorist activities are legal'?


All of them. In fact, most muslim countries governments support (monitarily and materially) support terrorist groups.

[palerider]

Does this surprise you? In dealing with arrogance like this you knew what to expect . dont you get it yet? This guy is right about everything. It dosent matter what subject your discussing,he is right and your not. it isnt worth the typing in my opinion


It isn't worth typing a wrong opinion anyway is it roker?

[vyo476]

Once again. In this country pedophilia, supplying materials to pedophiles, or protecting a pedophile will get you locked away for a very long time. Which muslim countrys have made terrorist (jihad) activities illegal?

Why should they?

[ArmChair General]

All of them. In fact, most muslim countries governments support (monitarily and materially) support terrorist groups.

Wrong.

Name JUST ONE Muslim country where Terrorist Activities are Legal.

[ArmChair General]

It isn't worth typing a wrong opinion anyway is it roker?

No it isn't worth anyones time trying to educate a dunce like you.

[Sgt Schultz]

Once again. In this country pedophilia, supplying materials to pedophiles, or protecting a pedophile will get you locked away for a very long time. Which muslim countrys have made terrorist (jihad) activities illegal?

Unless you're the Catholic church, in regards to pedophilia.

Also, I believe you'll find that in the muslim countries if they catch someone who commits an act of terror on their soil against them there will be swift punishment and retribution.

[Equityshiz]

All of them. In fact, most muslim countries governments support (monitarily and materially) support terrorist groups.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[jb_1430]

You wont accpet my websites, and 1 million people rallying against radical Islam in Turkey because you've lost.


"Radical Islam"???? They are protesting against the AK party. The ruling party in turkish parliament. They are considered a MODERATE Islamic party and they are protesting them because they dont want an Islamic government applying the Shariah as law, like the Islamic doctrine says they are supposed to have. MARK

[palerider]

Wrong.

Name JUST ONE Muslim country where Terrorist Activities are Legal.

How about two. The governments of both iran and syria support hamas monetarily. Are you going to deny that hamas is a terrorist organization? Or maybe you are going to suggest that the money that hamas gets from iran and syria goes into a separate account from their money that is earmarked for terrorist activities

[jb_1430]

Also, I believe you'll find that in the muslim countries if they catch someone who commits an act of terror on their soil against them there will be swift punishment and retribution.

And in some muslim countries if they are caught commiting acts of terrorism against the evil western infidels, they receive praise and adulation. MARK

[palerider]

Unless you're the Catholic church, in regards to pedophilia.

Also, I believe you'll find that in the muslim countries if they catch someone who commits an act of terror on their soil against them there will be swift punishment and retribution.

You mean against muslims, or against infidels living within the borders?

[palerider]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Since I never blew up a woman or a child for not worshiping as my religion suggests, am not so worried about getting called on that one.

[ArmChair General]

How about two. The governments of both iran and syria support hamas monetarily. Are you going to deny that hamas is a terrorist organization? Or maybe you are going to suggest that the money that hamas gets from iran and syria goes into a separate account from their money that is earmarked for terrorist activities

Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. Are you trying to say that it is? Why?

Furthermore, both Iran and Syria have laws against terrorism. It is illegal for terrorists to blow up buildings in Iran for example.

[palerider]

Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. Are you trying to say that it is? Why?

Furthermore, both Iran and Syria have laws against terrorism. It is illegal for terrorists to blow up buildings in Iran for example.


From the Department of State counterterrorism page. A partial list of terrorist organizations:

Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
Aum Shinriykyo
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah (Party of God)
Japanese Red Army (JRA)
al-Jihad
Kach
Kahane Chai

And you seem to find wikipedia credible, here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

They are what they are. Should I provide other muslim governments that support other terrorist organizations? How obtuse can you possibly be to even argue such a rediculous point?

[palerider]

Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. Are you trying to say that it is? Why?

Furthermore, both Iran and Syria have laws against terrorism. It is illegal for terrorists to blow up buildings in Iran for example.

Is it illegal for terrorists to kill infidels?

[Sgt Schultz]

You mean against muslims, or against infidels living within the borders?

Both.

[ArmChair General]

Is it illegal for terrorists to kill infidels?

Yah, Murder is illegal in both Iran and Syria.

[ArmChair General]

From the Department of State counterterrorism page. A partial list of terrorist organizations:

Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
Aum Shinriykyo
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG)
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah (Party of God)
Japanese Red Army (JRA)
al-Jihad
Kach
Kahane Chai

And you seem to find wikipedia credible, here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

They are what they are. Should I provide other muslim governments that support other terrorist organizations? How obtuse can you possibly be to even argue such a rediculous point?

That doesnt explain why. I don't accept the American list of terrorist Organizations. And you wouldn't either if you were actually educated on whats going on in the region.

[palerider]

Both.

Yah, Murder is illegal in both Iran and Syria

Then I am sure that between the two of you, you can provide some news clippings of terrorists that have been brought to justice in either of those countries for killing infidels.

[ArmChair General]

PaleRider, did you know that the United States funds and supports the Iraqi Kurds, who actively conduct terrorist operations into Turkey. Does that mean the US supports terrorism as well?

Turkey is one of our biggest Allies in the region.

Supposedly we are even funding the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, and they're kissing cousins with the big Al Q.

[ArmChair General]

Then I am sure that between the two of you, you can provide some news clippings of terrorists that have been brought to justice in either of those countries for killing infidels.

First I think we need to define what you keep referring to as an 'infidel'. You should propably define what you think a terrorist is as well.

[Sgt Schultz]

Then I am sure that between the two of you, you can provide some news clippings of terrorists that have been brought to justice in either of those countries for killing infidels.

Here is one. You can peruse the site to read about the arrests and trials.

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/bali/

[ArmChair General]

Here is one. You can peruse the site to read about the arrests and trials.

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/bali/

ahh..ok..well how about this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/world/middleeast/13syriacnd.html?ex=1315713600&en=095f75551e28ab46&ei=5090&

Syrian Forces Repel Attack on U.S. Embassy

In an attack that quickly took on larger political overtones, four men armed with grenades and machine guns tried to storm the American embassy in Damascus today.

Syrian security forces repelled the assault, killing three of the gunmen and injuring the fourth, Syria’s official news agency said; one member of Syria’s antiterrorism force was killed in the battle, it said, and three others were wounded.


(holy crap, Syria has an anti-terrorism force! why would they need that?)

[ArmChair General]

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000505.html

"Iran confirmed that it has tried and sentenced fugitive members of Al-Qaeda detained on its soil, but maintained a tight secrecy over which members of Osama bin Laden's network were in the Islamic republic."

[ArmChair General]

Syria's not as simple as Bush's people make it out to be. A lot of guys in the CIA, consider Syria a serious force against Muslim craziness in the Middle East. The Syrians proved they were serious about that by wiping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Aleppo, along with a whole lot of unlucky civilians, when the Brothers tried to stage a religious uprising. It's a real mistake to lump the Baathist secularists in the Syrian government with Iran and Libya, they're different animals.

[palerider]

Should I compile a list of terrorist activities out of syria and iran now to counter yours? Whose do you think would be larger?

[ArmChair General]

Should I compile a list of terrorist activities out of syria and iran now to counter yours? Whose do you think would be larger?

haha...what was that you said...

oh yah

Dodge. Shuck. and Jive.

[palerider]

haha...what was that you said...

oh yah

Dodge. Shuck. and Jive.


Just asking a question. Do you believe that a team of researchers could provide more information on muslim countrie's anti terrorists activities than a single individual could provide on their support for terrorist activities?

Islam is what it is and I simply don't see the logic in apologizing for them. After all, they want to see you dead exactly as much as they want to see me dead. Unless, of course, you are bowing to mecca 5 times a day.

[ArmChair General]

Just asking a question. Do you believe that a team of researchers could provide more information on muslim countrie's anti terrorists activities than a single individual could provide on their support for terrorist activities?

Islam is what it is and I simply don't see the logic in apologizing for them. After all, they want to see you dead exactly as much as they want to see me dead. Unless, of course, you are bowing to mecca 5 times a day.

whos apologizing for them. IM just pointing out the clear inaccuracies and lies that you keep posting.

If your going to hate on Islam, at least do it with the right information.

[jb_1430]

Is it illegal for terrorists to kill infidels?

It is forbidden for a Muslim to kill a Muslim according to Islamic doctrine. Everyone else is fair game. MARK

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,

[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake...

4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell.....

9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9sublime]

Once again. In this country pedophilia, supplying materials to pedophiles, or protecting a pedophile will get you locked away for a very long time. Which muslim countrys have made terrorist (jihad) activities illegal?

As all Muslim countries have made it illegal, I guess um, you're a peado.

[Sgt Schultz]

It is forbidden for a Muslim to kill a Muslim according to Islamic doctrine. Everyone else is fair game. MARK

There are also plenty of passage in the bible that advocate killing those who don't believe.

[jb_1430]

There are also plenty of passage in the bible that advocate killing those who don't believe.

There are passages that advocate the jews to kill the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, in a certain time and place. And then god expelled the jews from that place. Islam advocates killing the non believers to bring about Islamic rule of the world, which impacts our lives today. The New testament is the new covenant for most Christians. "Do unto others", "turn the other cheek" "render unto Ceasar, that which belongs to Ceasar" and all that stuff. Islam is unique in that it advocates Islamic government applying Islamic law, and spreading to rule the world. Bringing this about thru jihad.




[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.



Or to quote Bin Laden quoting Muhammad-



Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.


"NO ONE BUT ALLAH"! MARK

[Sgt Schultz]

There are also plenty of passages in the bible, new testament and old that advocate death, murder, how non-believers should be treated, et cetera. I can pick and choose all day, just as those who pick and choose out of the quran to justify what they believe. Both books are full of contradictions. What one who believes chooses to follow is the problem we face.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 - If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[jb_1430]

There are also plenty of passages in the bible, new testament and old that advocate death, murder, how non-believers should be treated,

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You said "advocate killing those who don't believe". I would say that this says that "those who dont believe" wont have everlasting life after they are already dead. Christians believing that I am going to burn in hell doesnt have an impact on me. Dont have any Christians advocating that they should hasten my journey to hell, only that this is where I am going to end up after I die. "Fight those who do not believe in Allah" doesnt require such mental gymnastics for a believer to interpret that to mean that he should be "killing those who don't believe". MARK

[9sublime]

I KNOW MUSLIMS WHO DON'T KILL PEOPLE, just like you know people who wear clothes of two different fibres. Not everyone follows everything literally, its just those to take it to an extreme, hence the name extremists.

[Sgt Schultz]

You said "advocate killing those who don't believe". I would say that this says that "those who dont believe" wont have everlasting life after they are already dead. Christians believing that I am going to burn in hell doesnt have an impact on me. Dont have any Christians advocating that they should hasten my journey to hell, only that this is where I am going to end up after I die. "Fight those who do not believe in Allah" doesnt require such mental gymnastics for a believer to interpret that to mean that he should be "killing those who don't believe". MARK

Believe me, there are so called christians in this country who love to do nothing more than hasten the death of unbelievers. Just take a look around some of the extremist forums to see what they say. What seems to stop them is that they are afraid of being caught and punished. So far it's just words but if the tipping point comes they will come out in force.

[palerider]

Believe me, there are so called christians in this country who love to do nothing more than hasten the death of unbelievers. Just take a look around some of the extremist forums to see what they say. What seems to stop them is that they are afraid of being caught and punished. So far it's just words but if the tipping point comes they will come out in force.


Tell you what. I will compile a list of killings perpetrated by muslims in the name of thier religion in the past year, decade, century, or the past thousand years if you like and you compile a list of killings perpetrated by christians in the same time and lets see who does the most killing. Even if you take the inquisition into account, the numbers are dwarfed by the number muslims have killed in the name of their demon god.

[Sgt Schultz]

Tell you what. I will compile a list of killings perpetrated by muslims in the name of thier religion in the past year, decade, century, or the past thousand years if you like and you compile a list of killings perpetrated by christians in the same time and lets see who does the most killing. Even if you take the inquisition into account, the numbers are dwarfed by the number muslims have killed in the name of their demon god.

This isn't a game because muslims might have killed more than christians. That doesn't excuses anyone. I don't condemn people on their religious beliefs, I only blame those individuals who commit crimes in the name of their religion regardless of what it is. The vast majority of people, be it christian or muslim are living peaceful lives and I won't condemn them based upon the actions of the extremists.

[vyo476]

Tell you what. I will compile a list of killings perpetrated by muslims in the name of thier religion in the past year, decade, century, or the past thousand years if you like and you compile a list of killings perpetrated by christians in the same time and lets see who does the most killing. Even if you take the inquisition into account, the numbers are dwarfed by the number muslims have killed in the name of their demon god.

A madman will find any justification for what he does. Islam, as a religious faith (which requires some heavy devotion to get into), is just another justification. The adherents to radical Islam who murder and maim in the name of the religion are no different than Charlie Manson; the comparatively poor economic conditions in the Middle East today are creating more of these crazies because normal, everyday life is just too terrible to do otherwise. Throw in a disaffected rich kid with fifty brothers and sisters who never got much lovin' from his parents for funding and poof - and you have al Qaeda.

Remember, many passages in the Qu'ran have to deal with "fighting persecution." For any number of reasons these guys feel like they're being persecuted - could be that they think Western culture is poisoning their own; could be that they want all Western influences out of the Middle East; could be that they're just angry as **** at the world and we're the biggest target they could start throwing **** at. The point is that they're out of their ****ing minds.

Those are radical Islamic terrorists. They do not represent a majority of Muslims. Most Muslims don't kill anyone. The faith of the extremists is a completely different brand of Islam from what they practice - although the extremists still call it by the same name as the moderates, it is different. Think of the conflict between the Catholic Church and Martin Luther - at the time, there was no difference in nomenclature between Luther's church and the Catholic Church. Eventually, a conflict was forced and today we see that there are Protestants and Catholics and they're very, very different.

That kind of conflict will never be forced in this situation, though, because moderate Muslims are peaceful people. The terrorists are already apart from them. The terrorists are not their responsibility. They need not condemn them. What would the point be? There'd be about as much point in having the common, moderate Muslim go outside his door and loudly denounce terrorism as there would in having pale rider go outside his door and loudly denounce pedophilia. The only difference is that the streets are ruled by the extremists, who will execute any moderate Muslims for doing something like that, whereas pale rider has freedom of speech because he lives here in America.

As far as I can see, pale rider, you're condemning moderate Muslims because they don't have the freedom to speak their minds. This does not come from an inherently corrupt religious belief, as the moderate practices Islam too; it comes from a small group of extremists who have corrupted how the majority of Muslims view their religion. The few use force and intimidation to keep the weak in subjugation and use Islam as an excuse - not as a reason.

[jb_1430]

A madman will find any justification for what he does. Islam, as a religious faith (which requires some heavy devotion to get into), is just another justification. The adherents to radical Islam who murder and maim in the name of the religion are no different than Charlie Manson;....
Remember, many passages in the Qu'ran have to deal with "fighting persecution."


???? Charles manson wasnt following any religious doctrine.


[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.



This isnt a response to persecution. It is convert and pay the tax, OR DIE! Unless your a christian or jew in which case you can accept your state of subjection or die. They are not crazy, they are good obedient muslims who follow ALL of Gods commandments instead of picking and choosing. MARK

[palerider]

the comparatively poor economic conditions in the Middle East today are creating more of these crazies because normal, everyday life is just too terrible to do otherwise.

That is not a valid argument at all. There are plenty of other people, even in muslim areas, that live under the same poverty, and political conditions and yet, only the muslims go about wageing jihad. This is because the muslims are called to jihad and they are taught this from a very early age.

As far as I can see, pale rider, you're condemning moderate Muslims because they don't have the freedom to speak their minds. This does not come from an inherently corrupt religious belief, as the moderate practices Islam too; it comes from a small group of extremists who have corrupted how the majority of Muslims view their religion. The few use force and intimidation to keep the weak in subjugation and use Islam as an excuse - not as a reason.

It sounds like you are suggesting that a few percent of muslims are keeping the other 97% in line by terror. If that is the case, then I find that I might be able to have even less respect for muslims than I already do. You seem to be saying that muslims come in two varieties, heroic madmen or abject cowards.

[ArmChair General]

Tell you what. I will compile a list of killings perpetrated by muslims in the name of thier religion in the past year, decade, century, or the past thousand years if you like and you compile a list of killings perpetrated by christians in the same time and lets see who does the most killing. Even if you take the inquisition into account, the numbers are dwarfed by the number muslims have killed in the name of their demon god.

You know, I would so take that bet. Christians, in just the last century have been way more bloody than Muslims.

Just look at the history of Lebanon for one.

And then Africa....and don't forget Latin America...if there was a way to actually score this, you would so lose.

[ArmChair General]

That is not a valid argument at all. There are plenty of other people, even in muslim areas, that live under the same poverty, and political conditions and yet, only the muslims go about wageing jihad. This is because the muslims are called to jihad and they are taught this from a very early age.

Its not a valid argument. For instance, the people who flew the jets into the Trade Center were rich, afluent and well off. They were not poor or tortured as children. The common denominator between then was their religion.


It sounds like you are suggesting that a few percent of muslims are keeping the other 97% in line by terror. If that is the case, then I find that I might be able to have even less respect for muslims than I already do. You seem to be saying that muslims come in two varieties, heroic madmen or abject cowards.

This is however a valid argument. You are looking at Muslims in a vacum PaleRider. Almost every Muslim country is a brutal dictatorship. And most of those get support, both militarily and monetarily from the United States. Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is said to be Bin Ladens right hand man and the biggest inflence on his ideology, came from the brutally oppressive regime of Egypt. He spent years in prison being tortured, and when he finally got out, he was more violent than ever.

The Extremists are at war with the Muslim Dictatorships, which in turn makes them crack down even more on the people, which inevitably creates more discontent and more future terrorists.

[vyo476]

???? Charles manson wasnt following any religious doctrine.

Exactly. Crazy people latch onto whatever they can to justify themselves.


They are not crazy, they are good obedient muslims who follow ALL of Gods commandments instead of picking and choosing. MARK

So are the only good Christians the ones who adhere to all those lovely passages about stoning people to death for committing adultery?

[vyo476]

That is not a valid argument at all. There are plenty of other people, even in muslim areas, that live under the same poverty, and political conditions and yet, only the muslims go about wageing jihad. This is because the muslims are called to jihad and they are taught this from a very early age.

Or its because they're the only ones who are organized enough to do any real damage.


It sounds like you are suggesting that a few percent of muslims are keeping the other 97% in line by terror. If that is the case, then I find that I might be able to have even less respect for muslims than I already do. You seem to be saying that muslims come in two varieties, heroic madmen or abject cowards.

I'd put the divide at something more like 15-20% keeping 80-85% in line using terror tactics. The thing that you're just not comprehending is that moderate Muslims are peaceful - they don't want more war and bloodshed. If they keep their heads low now the extremists don't bother them; if they speak out against the terrorists then the terrorists come and blow them up. They want peace in their own home first and peace abroad second; they can have the first by keeping their mouthes shut and they can aid the effort in favor of the second by opening their mouths, but they can't have both.

Here's your situation: You're standing on a street corner. You see a man who you know to be a member of the Mafia. Do you start yelling at him about how he's a terrible, awful person and that, despite the fact that you don't really know him and don't consider yourself to be a part of his stratification, you don't support the things he does, simply because the people he hurt might blame you by some vague association? Do you do that with full knowledge that by doing so, you're painting a giant red bulls-eye on you and your family? Do you do that with full knowledge that dictatorial government currently in power doesn't give a damn about what that man and his cronies do to you and yours? Or do you just turn and walk away and not say anything?

[jb_1430]

Exactly. Crazy people latch onto whatever they can to justify themselves.
So are the only good Christians the ones who adhere to all those lovely passages about stoning people to death for committing adultery?

I am not aware of any such Christians. MARK

[9sublime]

But surely if good Muslims are ones that follow their Qu'ran to every detail inculding stonings, a good Christian should also follow his bible literally and stone people.

But you regard a good Christian as one who doesn't stone people, why do you dislike Muslims who don't partake in stoning.

[vyo476]

I am not aware of any such Christians. MARK

So what are you saying? There aren't any good Christians? Or that good Christians ignore the more violent sections of the Bible? Perhaps there's some middle ground that I'm missing?

[jb_1430]

But surely if good Muslims are ones that follow their Qu'ran to every detail inculding stonings, a good Christian should also follow his bible literally and stone people.

But you regard a good Christian as one who doesn't stone people, why do you dislike Muslims who don't partake in stoning.

Cant imagine what makes you think I dislike Muslims? MARK

[vyo476]

Cant imagine what makes you think I dislike Muslims? MARK


They are not crazy, they are good obedient muslims who follow ALL of Gods commandments instead of picking and choosing.

So only the jihadists are "good obedient muslims." This by your own words.

Then how do you respond to the idea that, by your logic, "good Christians" would have to stone to death people who commit adultery, rather than picking and choosing which of God's commandments to follow?

[palerider]

? Do you do that with full knowledge that dictatorial government currently in power doesn't give a damn about what that man and his cronies do to you and yours? Or do you just turn and walk away and not say anything?

I thought that you were just arguing that muslim governments don't support terrorist and will arrest anyone who is involved with them.

[palerider]

But surely if good Muslims are ones that follow their Qu'ran to every detail inculding stonings, a good Christian should also follow his bible literally and stone people.

But you regard a good Christian as one who doesn't stone people, why do you dislike Muslims who don't partake in stoning.

Things changed in Christianity with the coming of the messiah. If you are going to argue a thing, it is always usefull to have more than a surface knowledge of a thing.

[jb_1430]

So only the jihadists are "good obedient muslims." This by your own words.

Then how do you respond to the idea that, by your logic, "good Christians" would have to stone to death people who commit adultery, rather than picking and choosing which of God's commandments to follow?

Noooooo, you were the one that added "only" to my description. MARK

[9sublime]

Things changed in Christianity with the coming of the messiah. If you are going to argue a thing, it is always usefull to have more than a surface knowledge of a thing.

Just because the old testament is more brutal than the new testament, while the Qu'ran hasn't had such a thing happen to it, doesn't mean all Muslims and their governments are violent and brutal.

[jb_1430]

Just because the old testament is more brutal than the new testament, while the Qu'ran hasn't had such a thing happen to it, doesn't mean all Muslims and their governments are violent and brutal.

Has ANYBODY claimed that all Muslims are violent and brutal? The claim is that Islam is evil and many of you keep whining that all Muslims are not bad???? no one has claimed so. MARK

[9sublime]

If there are Muslims out there who follow Islam but are good people too, then Islam isn't evil, its just how you manipulate it that can make it evil.

[jb_1430]

If there are Muslims out there who follow Islam but are good people too, then Islam isn't evil, its just how you manipulate it that can make it evil.

They are picking and chosing bits of the doctrine to follow. It is the "fundamentalist" who are causing the problems. The ones who follow the literal word of all the written text. The doctrine is freakin evil. MARK

[ArmChair General]

They are picking and chosing bits of the doctrine to follow. It is the "fundamentalist" who are causing the problems. The ones who follow the literal word of all the written text. The doctrine is freakin evil. MARK

Just like Christianity then. We Agree.

[9sublime]

Yes, so the starter of this thread and the person who posted out of context quotes agrees that Islam isn't any more evil than any other religion?

[ArmChair General]

Yes, so the starter of this thread and the person who posted out of context quotes agrees that Islam isn't any more evil than any other religion?

And it only took 15 pages of nonsense to get him to admit it.

[jb_1430]

Just like Christianity then. We Agree.

Not at all. Islam calls for Islamic governments applying Islamic law, and killing those who do not agree. Christianity has no such doctrine. MARK

[jb_1430]

And it only took 15 pages of nonsense to get him to admit it.

You guys dwell in some sort of alternate reality. The starter of this thread hasnt commented since the first day. And whatever you think Ive admitted is also a product of this alternate reality. MARK

[palerider]

Just because the old testament is more brutal than the new testament, while the Qu'ran hasn't had such a thing happen to it, doesn't mean all Muslims and their governments are violent and brutal.


Of course not. Only the good ones. Like I have been saying all along.

[ArmChair General]

Not at all. Islam calls for Islamic governments applying Islamic law, and killing those who do not agree. Christianity has no such doctrine. MARK

You really should get educated on the subject. Killing 'those who do not agree' is not sanctioned by the religion.

Furthermore, if you read the Qu'ran in context, its obvious that wars of aggression or not sanctioned, only fighting in self defense.

As Khaleel Muhammad, professor of religious studies at San Diego State University, ssaid, regarding his discussion with the critic Robert Spencer, that "when I am told ... that Jihad only means war, or that I have to accept interpretations of the Quran that non-Muslims (with no good intentions or knowledge of Islam) seek to force upon me, I see a certain agendum developing: one that is based on hate, and I refuse to be part of such an intellectual crime."

In other words Mark, Your an ignorant fool.

Heres a good book you should read.

http://www.rezaaslan.com/nogodbutgod.html

[jb_1430]

You really should get educated on the subject. Killing 'those who do not agree' is not sanctioned by the religion.


It would seem you really dont know anything about Islam and simply parroting what you have heard about Islam. Weve been over this before,


[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


Feel free to post ANYTHING that contradicts my assertions, if you can.
MARK

[vyo476]

Noooooo, you were the one that added "only" to my description. MARK

So it is possible to be a good Muslim without becoming a terrorist, then?

[vyo476]

I thought that you were just arguing that muslim governments don't support terrorist and will arrest anyone who is involved with them.

That was actually Armchair_General who was talking about how murder is illegal in Islamic countries. Although it may be technically illegal, I think we all know just how much those governments care about that sort of thing if it is within their interests to look the other way.

Anyway, you dodged the question. Nice weasel tactics.

[9sublime]

OK, YES OR NO ANSWERS FROM ALL OF YOU.

A religion is only evil if the people who believe in it manipulate its scriptures to commit evil deeds. Those who live a good life (i.e. not a terrorist) are therefore not evil, and the religion they follow therefore is not evil either, because they have interpreted it differently. Agreed?

[vyo476]

I suppose the question we should be asking is: Is a religion simply the sum of its ancient religious texts or is what modern adherents make of it?

Palerider and jb highlight various violent aspects of the Muslim holy texts that are followed to the letter by a few extremists. In their eyes these extremists are the only "good Muslims."

9sublime and I highlight the peaceful lifestyles of the majority of Muslims and say that Islam should be defined by their values and actions, not the values and statements of documents that are thousands of years old and obviously not widely followed. We believe that the extremists, not representing the general will of most Muslims, are not "good Muslims."

I suppose that who is right and who is wrong is a matter of opinion. Here's the catch: So what? Hypothetically, lets say that pale rider and/or jb argued 9sublime and I down and we all agreed that "Islam is evil." Where do we go from there? What do we do? What is the point of this discussion?

[9sublime]

While all your points are excellent and I agree with them, you didn't give me a yes or no answer lol.

However, the reason we argue about this is because its a discussion forum.

And religion is simply what it is interpreted as by each individual, after all, its a load of man made bollocks anyway.

[jb_1430]

.

As Khaleel Muhammad, professor of religious studies at San Diego State University, ssaid, regarding his discussion with the critic Robert Spencer, that "[I]when I am told ... that Jihad only means war,
In other words Mark, Your an ignorant fool.

Heres a good book you should read.

http://www.rezaaslan.com/nogodbutgod.html


Im not aware of anyone claiming that Jihad means only war. At the bottom are the first 7 results of a search of the Haddiths for Jihad. Here is about the 13th result and anyone can see that Jihad doesnt mean fighting for women.


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."


The other passages leave no doubt that Jihad means fighting the unbelievers. Ignorant fool! MARK



Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).

Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."

Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."


Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle