Putin suggests alternative site for Missile Defense station

[Sadistic Savior]

In an uncharacteristic compromise, Putin has apparently agreed to stop pouting if the US uses an alternative base instead:

Putin told Bush he would not seek to retarget Russian missiles on Europe if the United States agreed to put the radar-based system in Azerbaijan, a former Soviet republic bordering the Caspian Sea.

[...] Putin said the existing radar station, built during Soviet times, is rented by Russia under a continuing agreement between Russia and Azerbaijan.

He argued the benefits of his suggested substitute: An Azerbaijan-based system would cover all of Europe rather than just part of it, and destroyed missile debris would fall in the ocean rather than on land.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/07/ap/politics/main2897530.shtml

Sounds good to me.

He laid out several other conditions, as well:

_Taking Russia's concerns into account.

_Giving all sides "equal access" to the system.

_Making the development of the system transparent.

"Then we will have no problem," the Russian leader said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/07/ap/politics/main2897530.shtml

Great. Glad to see they finally came around.

"We asked the Russians to cooperate with us on missile defense, and I think what we got is a willingness to do so," Hadley said after the Bush-Putin meeting.

[...] [Putin] declared himself "satisfied with the spirit of openness" he encountered in Bush. The U.S. president said they had demonstrated they share "the desire to work together to allay people's fears."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/07/ap/politics/main2897530.shtml

[9sublime]

You really think he came around? He is playing with the other G8 nations, stirring things up.

[Sadistic Savior]

You really think he came around?

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Grond]

In an uncharacteristic compromise, Putin has apparently agreed to stop pouting if the US uses an alternative base instead:


Actually, Putin has not agree. Its been pointed out to the US side that he was simply calling Washington's bluff and has no forced Washington to all but admit that the system is a hostile move at his nation. Besides the fact, that Putin doesn't simply state his personal opinions. He has intelligence and military annalysts that do the research and brief him.

[Sadistic Savior]

Actually, Putin has not agree. Its been pointed out to the US side that he was simply calling Washington's bluff and has no forced Washington to all but admit that the system is a hostile move at his nation.

If that was what he was trying to do, he has failed. It will be really funny if Bush takes him up on his offer.

Either way, we'll get our radar base, so I dont really care. There are advantages to both locations. If Putin's choice will make him happy while preserving NMD's effectiveness, I am ok with that.

[9sublime]

Putin wields a lot of power in this debate. Nobody has ever been able to defeat Russia. He has nuclear weapons too, lots of them. Just remember that.

[Sadistic Savior]

Putin wields a lot of power in this debate. Nobody has ever been able to defeat Russia.

Defeating Russia is not our goal, and is no longer necessary. They are already a democracy. Their retarded "cold war" is entirely one-sided.

He has nuclear weapons too, lots of them. Just remember that.

Nuclear weapons he cant (wont) use unless we attack him first. Since we obviously will never attack a democratic Russia, his whining can effectively be ignored. No, he does not wield any real power in this debate. The most he can do is irritate and annoy us.

The best Russia can hope for in a nuclear conflict with us is mutual destruction. Do you really believe they will commit suicide over something olike this?

No. All they can do is pout.

[vyo476]

Putin wields a lot of power in this debate. Nobody has ever been able to defeat Russia.

It's so much more effective to just let Russia defeat itself.


He has nuclear weapons too, lots of them. Just remember that.

That's Cold War logic. The whole "we're targeting the cities!" thing was just a political move; the world isn't constantly on the brink of nuclear war like it was twenty years ago.

In essence, he won't use them unless we give him damn few alternatives. Obviously jumping up and down making lots of noise was the alternative he picked this time.

[vyo476]

Defeating Russia is not our goal, and is no longer necessary. They are already a democracy. Their retarded "cold war" is entirely one-sided.

Putin's numerous references to the Cold War over the last few years have been akin to someone attempting to re-initiate a sandbox fight once in high school. You'd think both sides had outgrown the whole thing, but nooooooooo.


Nuclear weapons he cant (wont) use unless we attack him first. Since we obviously will never attack a democratic Russia, his whining can effectively be ignored. No, he does not wield any real power in this debate. The most he can do is irritate and annoy us.

While you're a little more optimistic about this than I am, I agree for the most part. We're probably not going to be attacking Russia any time soon, and the only way Putin would use his own missiles is if he felt they were his only chance - and considering that Russia owns more tanks than the US and Europe combined and could field the third-largest infantry force in the world (with generous conscription, of course) I don't think there's anything short of a nuclear attack (or the serious threat of a nuclear attack) that would get Putin to launch against us.


The best Russia can hope for in a nuclear conflict with us is mutual destruction. Do you really believe they will commit suicide over something olike this?

Nah...this is way too trivial. If we'd been installing missile launchers in Eastern Europe, than yeah, maybe he would be willing to step things up a notch, but for a missile defense station?

[9sublime]

Defeating Russia is not our goal, and is no longer necessary. They are already a democracy. Their retarded "cold war" is entirely one-sided.


Nuclear weapons he cant (wont) use unless we attack him first. Since we obviously will never attack a democratic Russia, his whining can effectively be ignored. No, he does not wield any real power in this debate. The most he can do is irritate and annoy us.

The best Russia can hope for in a nuclear conflict with us is mutual destruction. Do you really believe they will commit suicide over something olike this?

No. All they can do is pout.

I know this, I know that there is no real cold war. It just depends on someone being stupid enough to attack the other first, which wont happen.

But if Russia wields no real power behind its threat for those reasons, accordingly America wields no real power either when it comes to nuclear warfare.

[Sadistic Savior]

Me: Nuclear weapons he cant (wont) use unless we attack him first. Since we obviously will never attack a democratic Russia, his whining can effectively be ignored. No, he does not wield any real power in this debate. The most he can do is irritate and annoy us.

While you're a little more optimistic about this than I am, I agree for the most part.

Whats not to be optimistic about?

The only reason you should feel threatened is if you really believe that Putin is willing to destroy his own nation over this issue. Mutual Destruction is the BEST outcome they can hope for in a war with us. Thats as good as it can get for them.

That being said, does Putin strike you as a suicidal fanatic? I suppose anything is possible, but he doesnt look like that to me.

And if he is not a sucicidal fanatic, it means he has no power. He has no way to threaten us. Bush is being polite, because it would be nice to have Russia on board as an ally (and I totally agree with him). But they are not a threat to us.

considering that Russia owns more tanks than the US and Europe combined and could field the third-largest infantry force in the world

Tanks based on obsolete technology. This isnt the Soviet union. This is a fragment of the Soviet Union, and they have not kept up with the times. Russian technology is very impressive compared to, say, China or North Korea.

Compared to the US? Not so much.

We have everything they do, but the reverse is not true. Thats not to say they are stupid. Far from it. But they simply dont have the economy to support a massive military the way we do. So it was inevitible that they would fall behind in most areas.

But if Russia wields no real power behind its threat for those reasons, accordingly America wields no real power either when it comes to nuclear warfare.

I guess it is a good thing for us that:

1) Russia is not an enemy as far as we are concerned.

2) Our conventional forces are superior to any military that has ever existed in human history.

The proliferation of Missile Defense systems will decrease the chances of nuclear war, and perhaps remove it as a possibility completely. That is a good thing for everyone. Even Russia.

[vyo476]

Whats not to be optimistic about?

The only reason you should feel threatened is if you really believe that Putin is willing to destroy his own nation over this issue. Mutual Destruction is the BEST outcome they can hope for in a war with us. Thats as good as it can get for them.

That being said, does Putin strike you as a suicidal fanatic? I suppose anything is possible, but he doesnt look like that to me.



It was more you saying that we would never attack a democratic Russia. Although chances of that are admittedly slim I wouldn't say "never."

Putin strikes me as a Communist-wannabe who isn't quite in touch with the fact that his country isn't anywhere near as big and bad as it used to be. I think he talks big about little things but won't back it up with force unless he feels truly pressed - hence the US going only a little out of our way to keep him happy.


And if he is not a sucicidal fanatic, it means he has no power. He has no way to threaten us. Bush is being polite, because it would be nice to have Russia on board as an ally (and I totally agree with him). But they are not a threat to us.

They could be in a hurry. The Russian power structure is a house of cards and if Putin really steps in it, especially in regards to foreign policy with the US, we could be looking at a violent coup d'etat and couple of disaffected, angry old Communists running the second largest nuclear power in the world. Putin isn't suicidal but there are plenty of Russians who are.


Tanks based on obsolete technology. This isnt the Soviet union. This is a fragment of the Soviet Union, and they have not kept up with the times. Russian technology is very impressive compared to, say, China or North Korea.

Compared to the US? Not so much.

Classic Russian strategy involves throwing as many men with yesterday's weapons at whoever is attacking them and hoping that the technology divide isn't so big that they just repaint the battlefield with Russian blood (which inevitably happens anyway). What makes you think they'd change tactics?


I guess it is a good thing for us that:

1) Russia is not an enemy as far as we are concerned.

2) Our conventional forces are superior to any military that has ever existed in human history.

The proliferation of Missile Defense systems will decrease the chances of nuclear war, and perhaps remove it as a possibility completely. That is a good thing for everyone. Even Russia.

There will always be bigger guns.

[Sadistic Savior]

It was more you saying that we would never attack a democratic Russia. Although chances of that are admittedly slim I wouldn't say "never."

The chances are so remote they might as well be zero.

They could be in a hurry. The Russian power structure is a house of cards and if Putin really steps in it, especially in regards to foreign policy with the US, we could be looking at a violent coup d'etat and couple of disaffected, angry old Communists running the second largest nuclear power in the world. Putin isn't suicidal but there are plenty of Russians who are.

Which would make our missile shield even more necessary. Not less.

But I have not seen strong evidence that this is going to happen.

Classic Russian strategy involves throwing as many men with yesterday's weapons at whoever is attacking them and hoping that the technology divide isn't so big that they just repaint the battlefield with Russian blood (which inevitably happens anyway). What makes you think they'd change tactics?

What makes you think such tactics would be effective on the modern battlefield?

We are already experimenting with synthetic soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_robot) even now. These are not just sketches or brainstorming...these are actual prototypes.

This is not WWII. Our technology gives us an overwhelming advantage in many areas. Numerical superiority means a lot less than it used to.

But even if they DO matter, we still have the advantage where Russia is concerned:

#1 China: 1,313,973,713
#2 India: 1,095,351,995
#3 United States: 298,444,215
#4 Indonesia: 245,452,739
#5 Brazil: 188,078,227
#6 Pakistan: 165,803,560
#7 Bangladesh: 147,365,352
#8 Russia: 142,893,540

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_tot_pop-people-total-population

Russia has less than half our population. And we can conscript just as easily as they can, if it comes to that.

There will always be bigger guns.

And we are going to have them for the forseeable future.

[qalam]

The Putin-Bush thing looks like it was just a smoke screen to turn the attention away from what was happening at G8 meeting. Take a look at what was accomplished--not a whole not.

Putin wants to return Russia to its power and influence that it use to have, but without communism.

[bokile]

Putin wants to return Russia to its power and influence that it use to have, but without communism.

This is some sort of compromise offered by the Russians:)

He is on his way to success:confused: or you think it is not possible?

[vyo476]

Putin wants to return Russia to its power and influence that it use to have, but without communism.

They might not call it "communism" anymore but Putin is certainly a big-government authoritarian in a quasi-chaotic democratic republic with an economic system that's never quite found its footing in the wake of eighty-plus years of actual communism.

I think Putin would be thrilled to hang a couple of red hammer 'n' sickle banners outside the Kremlin.

[steveox]

Japan is our ally right? Why dont the US install missle defense system there too just in case North Korea launches one and then we can shoot em down. And while russia is doing this why cant we install offensive & defensive missles near russia and canadian border? So if russia does try to strike us we can defend it and ruissia is gonna get wiped out in less then 5 minutes.Tell putin youre in a no win situation. then we got him STALEMATED!

[Sadistic Savior]

I think Putin would be thrilled to hang a couple of red hammer 'n' sickle banners outside the Kremlin.

Just as a lot of Americans would be happy to replace the American flag with the stars and bars.

Japan is our ally right? Why dont the US install missle defense system there too just in case North Korea launches one and then we can shoot em down.

Done and Done:

Japan proceeds on joint missile defense with U.S.

TOKYO (AP) — The Japanese government has decided to move forward with a ballistic missile defense program with the United States, a top government official said Saturday.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe said the government has decided to proceed with the joint development of a missile interceptor for the program, designed to use defensive missiles to destroy attacking ones.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-12-23-japanmissiledefense_x.htm