View Full Version : Bush Commutes Libby Prison Sentence
KingBall
07-02-2007, 02:26 PM
:D
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush commuted the sentence of former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby on Monday, sparing him from a 2 1/2-year prison term that Bush said was excessive. Bush's move came hours after a federal appeals panel ruled Libby could not delay his prison term in the CIA leak case.
That meant Libby was likely to have to report to prison soon and put new pressure on the president, who had been sidestepping calls by Libby's allies to pardon the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.
"I respect the jury's verdict," Bush said in a statement. "But I have concluded that the prison sentence given to Mr. Libby is excessive. Therefore, I am commuting the portion of Mr. Libby's sentence that required him to spend thirty months in prison."
Bush left intact a $250,000 fine and two years probation for Libby, and Bush said his action still "leaves in place a harsh punishment for Mr. Libby."
Libby was convicted in March of lying to authorities and obstructing the investigation into the 2003 leak of CIA operative's identity. He was the highest-ranking White House official ordered to prison since the Iran-Contra affair.
Reaction was harsh from Democrats.
"As Independence Day nears, we're reminded that one of the principles our forefathers fought for was equal justice under the law. This commutation completely tramples on that principle," Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., said through a spokesman.
Libby's supporters celebrated.
"That's fantastic. It's a great relief," said former Ambassador Richard Carlson, who helped raise millions for Libby's defense fund. "Scooter Libby did not deserve to go to prison and I'm glad the president had the courage to do this."
A message seeking comment from Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's office was not immediately returned.
Bush said Cheney's former aide was not getting off free.
"The reputation he gained through his years of public service and professional work in the legal community is forever damaged," Bush said. "His wife and young children have also suffered immensely. He will remain on probation. The significant fines imposed by the judge will remain in effect. The consequences of his felony conviction on his former life as a lawyer, public servant and private citizen will be long-lasting."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8Q4NJT80&show_article=1
From the man who never once commuted a questionable death penalty case as his time serving as Texas governor.
What a joke, this smells badly of further coverup. Bush says Scooter has and his family has suffered immensly. Well what about the career and the precidence this sets for protecting out intelligence agents? He did this souly for political gain.
Its a shame Bush is so far out of touch with the reality of American people. He doesnt read polls, but this stunt he is pulling will cost him another 7-10 job approval points.
Shame on you George W. Bush!
KingBall
07-02-2007, 03:09 PM
Clinton Pardon's List
The Associated Press
Saturday, Jan. 20, 2001; 1:52 p.m. EST
A list of the people pardoned or commuted Saturday before President Clinton left office, as released by the White House:
COMMUTATIONS:
Benjamin Berger
Ronald Henderson Blackley
Bert Wayne Bolan
Gloria Libia Camargo
Charles F. Campbell
David Ronald Chandler
Lau Ching Chin
Donald R. Clark
Loreta De-Ann Coffman
Derrick Curry
Velinda Desalus
Jacob Elbaum
Linda Sue Evans
Loretta Sharon Fish
Antoinette M. Frink
David Goldstein
Gerard A. Greenfield
Jodie E. Israel
Kimberly Johnson
Billy Thornton Langston Jr.
Belinda Lynn Lumpkin
Peter MacDonald
Kellie Ann Mann
Peter Ninemire
Hugh Ricardo Padmore
Arnold Paul Prosperi
Melvin J. Reynolds
Pedro Miguel Riveiro
Dorothy Rivers
Susan Rosenberg
Kalmen Stern
Cory Stringfellow
Carlo Anibal Vignali Jr.
Thomas Wilson Waddell III
Harvey Weinig
Kim Allen Willis
PARDONS:
Verla Jean Allen
Nicholas M. Altiere
Bernice Ruth Altschul
Joe Anderson Jr.
William Sterling Anderson
Mansour Azizkhani
Cleveland Victor Babin Jr.
Chris Harmon Bagley
Scott Lynn Bane
Thomas Cleveland Barber
Peggy Ann Bargon
David Roscoe Blampied
William Arthur Borders Jr.
Arthur David Borel
Douglas Chrles Borel
George Thomas Brabham
Almon Glenn Braswell
Leonard Browder
David Steven Brown
Delores Caroylene Burleson, aka Delores Cox Burleson
John H. Bustamante
Mary Louise Campbell
Eloida Candelaria
Dennis Sobrevinas Capili
Donna Denise Chambers
Douglas Eugene Chapman
Ronald Keith Chapman
Francisco Larois Chavez
Henry G. Cisneros
Roger Clinton
Stuart Harris Cohn
David Marc Cooper
Ernest Harley Cox Jr.
John F. Cross Jr.
Reickey Lee Cunningham
Richard Anthony De Labio
John Deutch
Richard Douglas
Edward Reynolds Downe
Marvin Dean Dudley
Larry Lee Duncan
Robert Clinton Fain
Marcos Arcenio Fernandez
Alvarez Ferrouillet
William Dennis Fugazy
Lloyd Reid George
Louis Goldstein
Rubye Lee Gordon
Pincus Green
Robert Ivey Hamner
Samuel Price Handley
Woodie Randolph Handley
Jay Houston Harmon
John Hummingson
David S. Herdlinger
Debi Rae Huckleberry
Donald Ray James
Stanley Pruet Jobe
Ruben H. Johnson
Linda Jones
James Howard Lake
June Louise Lewis
Salim Bonnor Lewis
John Leighton Lodwick
Hildebrando Lopez
Jose Julio Luaces
James Timothy Maness
James Lowell Manning
John Robert Martin
Frank Ayala Martinez
Silvia Leticia Beltran Martinez
John Francis McCormick
Susan H. McDougal
Howard Lawrence Mechanic
Brook K. Mitchell Sr.
Samuel Loring Morison
Charles Wilfred Morgan III
Richard Anthony Nazzaro
Charlene Ann Nosenko
Vernon Raymond Obermeier
Miguelina Ogalde
David C. Owen
Robert W. Palmer
Kelli Anne Perhosky
Richard H. Pezzopane
Orville Rex Phillips
Vinson Stewart Poling Jr.
Norman Lyle Prouse
Willie H.H. Pruitt Jr.
Danny Martin Pursley Sr.
Charles D. Ravenel
William Clyde Ray
Alfredo Luna Regalado
Ildefonso Reynes Ricafort
Marc Rich
Howard Winfield Riddle
Richard Wilson Riley Jr.
Samuel Lee Robbins
Joel Gonzales Rodriguez
Michael James Rogers
Anna Louise Ross
Gerald Glen Rust
Jerri Ann Rust
Bettye June Rutherford
Gregory Lee Sands
Adolph Schwimmer
Albert A. Seretti Jr.
Patricia Campbell Hearst Shaw
Dennis Joseph Smith
Gerald Owen Smith
Stephen A. Smith
Jimmie Lee Speake
Charles Bernard Stewart
Marlena Francisca Stewart-Rollins
John Fife Symington III
Richard Lee Tannehill
Nicholas C. Tenaglia
Gary Allen Thomas
Larry Weldon Todd
Olga C. Trevino
Ignatious Vamvouklis
Patricia A. Van De Weerd
Christopher V. Wade
Bill Wayne Warmath
Jack Kenneth Watson
Donna Lynn Webb
Donald William Wells
Robert H. Wendt
Jack L. Williams
Kavin Arthur Williams
Robert Michael Williams
Jimmie Lee Wilson
Thelma Louise Wingate
Mitchell Couey Wood
Warren Stannard Wood
Dewey Worthey
Rick Allen Yale
Joseph A. Yasak
William Stanley Yingling
Phillip David Young
What does that post have anything to do with Scooter Libby? Not a single one of those people were the top aide to a high ranking government official who was found guilty of leaking classified information to the media at the cost of someone's career and potentially thier life for some political gain.
Bush, has pardoned 113 since he came into office. Neither of these have anything to do with Scooter Libby. Lets not turn this into a Clinton vs. Bush deal.
top gun
07-02-2007, 06:59 PM
KingBall;15861]Clinton Pardon's List
The Associated Press
Saturday, Jan. 20, 2001; 1:52 p.m. EST
A list of the people pardoned or commuted Saturday before President Clinton left office, as released by the White House:......
It just kills me the Republican audacity. Always about Clinton. No matter what crooked or evil thing the Bush administration does it's always somehow Clinton was worse and they're absolved from the crime. Every president pardons people and commuted sentences. That's not the point and everybody knows it. This was an inside job with Libby taking the fall for Vice President Cheney & Karl Rove. Then before even one single day in jail. Here comes the Republican get out of jail free card.
Remember Bush and the big big press conference standing at the Presidential podium going on about how he'd come down hard on anybody in his administration that leaked or covered up any leak about any CIA operatives name... lies all lies! There's our Homeland Security my friend!
The Bush administration is run just like Enron was. It's all crooked and as far as they're concerned the end always justifies the means. Whether it's Iraq or Libby, Gonzales or halting stem cell research it's just a travesty what this Republican President has done to the United States of America!
Well at least Cheney and Rove can rub their grubby little hands together tonight and say... We took care of it Scooter... thanks for takin' the rap for us.
I knew Bush would do this but I always thought he'd do it right as he walk out of office. It makes sense though for him to do it early like this. The Republicans always think the American people are stupid and short sighted. They're betting we won't even remember this come the next election.
WHAT DO YOU ALL SAY... LET'S ALL REMEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
r0beph
07-02-2007, 10:15 PM
You cannot in ANY MANNER use fallacy in argument and attempt to hold on as valid. To list Clinton's commutes in reference to this uses so many fallacies it's surprising no one has pointed out 3 or 4. So let me do it.
Strawman - Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. Problem: you are attempting use of Clinton's commutes as if our disagreement with Bush' commuting of this sentance has any bearing on the truth of the matter. The fact that Clinton, as most presidents have in the past, commuted any number of persons is related to Bush commuting the sentance of someone who is getting his hand held by our president rather than due to miscarriage of justice, or whatever reasoning any president has for commute. Please refrain from further use. Thid Bush has done something SICK AND DISGUSTING in the eyes of law. A true miscarriage, however, this wasn't a natural miscarriage, we'll call this the presidential support of aborting laws.
Another logical fallacy which is referred to by the obvious reasoning, "Wishful Thinking", here you ignore evidence in supporting your side of the argument. Libby did some dirty, bush didn't like his friend going to jail, bush commutes. This IS HOW IT HAPPENED, END OF STORY, no amount of bush support or patriotism CHANGES THIS. It's a disgusting aspect of current day politics that I believe should carry much more than the charges levied on mr. libby, not a pat on the back from the president.
Ignoratio elenchi. Using clinton's stats on commute as relevant to this. It is infact irrelevant and only serves as obfuscation to the truth at hand. Did clinton pardon a friend who committed crimes FOR CLINTON? Nope. As far as I've seen, no.
so far we have 3 fallacies in play, these while not invalidating the argument, do not serve to prove any thing you may submit, at worst it will make you yourself appear foolhardy and ridiculous in your assertions. You sir make an F in debate class. (look I just used ad hominem ;), but whether you failed or made the grade in your coursework is neither here nor there, here your arguments are all bogus in property)
Please review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies and determine a better manner of evidenciary reckoning that makes SENSE not this omgifoundalistofclintoncommutesletspasteit. Because sir that fails....
TVoffBrainOn
07-03-2007, 06:03 AM
who didn't see this coming?
more of the same. corruption and cronyism.
the people's rights and the rule of law mean nothing to this administration
Lawless168
07-03-2007, 08:20 AM
It just kills me the Republican audacity. Always about Clinton.
WHAT DO YOU ALL SAY... LET'S ALL REMEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well you can look at it that way, I look at differently I guess. They are both crooked mofo's and I don't want another 4 years of Clinton or Bush. I've had enough of both, thank you!
I want change and someone else in the Whitehouse. So this could back fire on Hillary because of Bills pardons in the past, so you could say it does have some affect on Hillary. It wouldn't if she wasn't running for pres
Lawless168
07-03-2007, 09:18 AM
Obama statement on Bush decision to commute Libby's sentence
| July 02, 2007
Barack Obama today released the following statement on President Bush's decision to commute the sentence of Scooter Libby.
"This decision to commute the sentence of a man who compromised our national security cements the legacy of an Administration characterized by a politics of cynicism and division, one that has consistently placed itself and its ideology above the law. This is exactly the kind of politics we must change so we can begin restoring the American people's faith in a government that puts the country's progress ahead of the bitter partisanship of recent years."
Wow, nice to see and hear for a change
USMC the Almighty
07-03-2007, 09:25 AM
Obama statement on Bush decision to commute Libby's sentence
| July 02, 2007
Barack Obama today released the following statement on President Bush's decision to commute the sentence of Scooter Libby.
"This decision to commute the sentence of a man who compromised our national security cements the legacy of an Administration characterized by a politics of cynicism and division, one that has consistently placed itself and its ideology above the law. This is exactly the kind of politics we must change so we can begin restoring the American people's faith in a government that puts the country's progress ahead of the bitter partisanship of recent years."
Wow, nice to see and hear for a change
Typical Obama. Platitudes and rhetoric, but nothing else. Get back to me when he does something worth noting.
As for the commutation of Libby -- who cares? This is such a non-issue to me.
top gun
07-03-2007, 11:59 AM
Well you can look at it that way, I look at differently I guess. They are both crooked mofo's and I don't want another 4 years of Clinton or Bush. I've had enough of both, thank you!
I want change and someone else in the Whitehouse. So this could back fire on Hillary because of Bills pardons in the past, so you could say it does have some affect on Hillary. It wouldn't if she wasn't running for pres
It's reasonable to feel it might be time for someone other than a Bush or a Clinton in the Whitehouse. However if Hillary gets the nomination you have to look at the damage to be done to the country by a Republican President for 4 more years. Hillary on the other hand would be an extremely good president.
There is a pattern here that goes way beyond pardons or commuted sentences. As I said all presidents do this. But there are established Justice Department guidelines that presidents are supposed to, but not mandated to, go by when it comes to INTERNAL PARDONS AND COMMUTED SENTENCES.
Just look at the past and the trends are pretty apparent...
President Kennedy, President Clinton. Great presidents with a weakness for the ladies I'll grant you. But great administrations.
President Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and now Bush. These guys go way past any extra marital affairs. These guys break major laws and then when caught pardon each other.
The Watergate break in Nixon was all over it. Then when forced to resign his VP Ford becomes president and gives him a complete pardon.
Reagan all over the Iran Contra money for hostages, money to terrorists scheme. Uses plausible deniability and lets underlings take the fall.
Bush... well everyone knows Bush and Cheney played the country crazy to get us into Iraq. Now Bush commutes the sentence of Libby who was found guilty and sentenced by a jury led by a Republican judge and upheld by an Appeals Court. Not one single day in jail!
It's just so very obvious. Neither side is perfect that's for certain. But ones side is so likely to do things creating major damage to our country and then try to cover it up by any and all means. We have to do what we can to keep them from having controlling power.
jeffbiss
07-03-2007, 12:20 PM
kingbull,
Which of those people in your Clinton-pardoned-list obstructed justice? Who lied under oath to protect Clinton thus requiring Clinto to pardon him/her to ensure that they would keep their mouth shut about Clinton's alleged crimes?
The fact is that Bush, and the Republican Party in general, have shown that this is not a nation of laws but simply of privilege of power. The fact is that Libby obstructed the investigation into any underlying crime and so was prosecuted for that obstruction. In order for Bush and Cheney to remain uncharged required them to free Libby otherwise Libby might decide to talk to prosecutors because, after all, why should he sit in prison when Bush and Cheney are walking free and all he did was their bidding?
Freeing Libby is quid pro quo; Libby gets freedom and Bush gets silence. conservatives have shown once again that they cannot govern well.
rmbarron
07-03-2007, 01:02 PM
Typical Obama. Platitudes and rhetoric, but nothing else. Get back to me when he does something worth noting.
As for the commutation of Libby -- who cares? This is such a non-issue to me.
Give me a break! If this was a liberal president and all else was equal you'd be calling for their blood! Unless you'd like to further extrapolate your non-issue stance.
USMC the Almighty
07-03-2007, 04:12 PM
Give me a break! If this was a liberal president and all else was equal you'd be calling for their blood! Unless you'd like to further extrapolate your non-issue stance.
Actually no. A President has the right to commute and pardon those who he sees fit. This is one of the benefit of the office of Presidency and I have no problem with it. I didn't have a problem with it when Clinton did it, and I don't when Bush does it.
Similarly, I believe that a President should have right to appoint anyone he wants to the Supreme Court. I didn't get mad and demand a "bipartisan appointment" when Clinton's turn for appointing justices came. It's part of being President. He won and it's his right.
One last thing -- I was also against Clinton's impeachment hearings.
USMC, there is no question that the President under his legal authority has that ability and the right to commute and pardon. But the outrage that is being shown has to do with the individual involved, and the crime that took place. I dont think anyone is really surprised that it happened. It is just the hypocracy shown and the perception is that this is a coverup job to protect Cheney and Scotter is just the fall guy. This disclosure ended the career and has potentially endangered a CIA covert officer, as a political move to discredit a dissenting voice, and one that turned out to be factual and it was the President who was wrong on the issue.
From a man who says he doesnt tolerate leaks in his administration and never commuted some very questionable capital murder convictions to go against that, and say that 30months in prison was to large a sentence and Scooter has suffered enough already is simply pathetic.
I wonder who is going to shell out the quarter million dollars to pay the fine.
USMC the Almighty
07-03-2007, 06:48 PM
There is some controversy over whether or not she was covert, but like I said -- I really don't care. This "issue" just doesn't matter to me. In a week no one will even be talking about it.
Typical Obama. Platitudes and rhetoric, but nothing else. Get back to me when he does something worth noting.
As for the commutation of Libby -- who cares? This is such a non-issue to me.
What would you have him do? Kidnap Libby and put him in jail himself?
Also, a non-issue? The President letting a personal aide who lied to a federal grand jury off the hook is a big issue. That $250,000 doesn't mean jack. The online legal defense fund for Libby, if they haven't already, will gladly donate to the cause.
USMC the Almighty
07-04-2007, 01:01 PM
What would you have him do? Kidnap Libby and put him in jail himself?
All he said about this is "We need to reform partisan politics and restore faith in government." Well thanks, Obama. Real insightful.
Also, a non-issue? The President letting a personal aide who lied to a federal grand jury off the hook is a big issue. That $250,000 doesn't mean jack. The online legal defense fund for Libby, if they haven't already, will gladly donate to the cause.
So if lying under oath is such a big deal to you, I assume you supported Clinton's impeachment?
And anyway, what Scooter lied about wasn't related to the investigation.
top gun
07-04-2007, 01:19 PM
Typical Obama. Platitudes and rhetoric, but nothing else. Get back to me when he does something worth noting.
As for the commutation of Libby -- who cares? This is such a non-issue to me.
Let's all be honest and straight forward here. Barack Obama has done many very good things in the course of his life. Not the least of which is he served noteably and honorably in state senate and he's now a United States Congressman. All of which to me sets him up as more qualified for president "especially on a national/foriegn affairs level than any govenor... of which we've had quite a few become president.
In addition he's brilliant which is something we haven't seen in the Whitehouse in almost 7 years.
As far as Libby being a "non-issue"... well of course you would hope that to be the case. But come on... I don't think I would be misrepresenting if I said your posts appear to usually always be carrying water for this president & this administration no matter what they do. I think in 08 things like the Libby pardon may still be a "non-issue" for you but a big red flag of coruption and cover up to the majority of the American people... and that's a good thing! :)
USMC the Almighty
07-04-2007, 01:34 PM
Let's all be honest and straight forward here. Barack Obama has done many very good things in the course of his life. Not the least of which is he served noteably and honorably in state senate and he's now a United States Congressman. All of which to me sets him up as more qualified for president "especially on a national/foriegn affairs level than any govenor... of which we've had quite a few become president.
What has he done during that time? I'm open to hearing anything significant that Obama has done.
In addition he's brilliant which is something we haven't seen in the Whitehouse in almost 7 years.
As far as Libby being a "non-issue"... well of course you would hope that to be the case. But come on... I don't think I would be misrepresenting if I said your posts appear to usually always be carrying water for this president & this administration no matter what they do. I think in 08 things like the Libby pardon may still be a "non-issue" for you but a big red flag of coruption and cover up to the majority of the American people... and that's a good thing! :)
I've disagreed w/ the Republicans and Bush on a number of issues, most recently being illegal immigration.
And give me a break with the "corruption" talk. That's a part of politics. Clinton's Administration was notoriously corrupt. You can elect 3rd and 4th parties and they'll be corrupt.
Castle
07-04-2007, 06:30 PM
Can someone clear one thing up for me!? Where was the outrage when Clinton was busy pardoning all his seedy pals? I just don't remember the uproar then that I'm seeing and hearing now. It seems we didn't really care much about it back then. Now Bush is issuing the SAME get out of jail free card and the leftists are passing football sized kidney stones over it.
-Castle
Can someone clear one thing up for me!? Where was the outrage when Clinton was busy pardoning all his seedy pals? I just don't remember the uproar then that I'm seeing and hearing now. It seems we didn't really care much about it back then. Now Bush is issuing the SAME get out of jail free card and the leftists are passing football sized kidney stones over it.
-Castle
It was there, the whole thing about Marc Rich I believe his name was. But that is apples and oranges. Clinton never commuted nor pardoned anyone in his own cabinet, especially over a serious matter like this. It screams of coverup for Cheney at the very least.
Fact: Bush has said he doesnt tolerate leaks, especially of classified information in his administration.
Fact: Bush never commuted a single sentence of a death row inmate while he was Governor of Texas. Including some very questionable convictions especially of mentally disabled people.
Fact: The op-ed piece written by Joseph Wilson was contradictary of the Bush administration claim about uranium purchases by Iraq from Niger, The Joseph Wilson claims were true and the Bush claims were false.
Fact: This was done as punishment to the Wilson family for thier dissent on the matter.
Why is it that any time people are complaining about Bush, the first thing people say is Clinton this and Clinton that. Lets blame Bush for his mistakes and Clinton for his. They are two different people with two different administrations.
Because Nixon was involved in Watergate, do people immediatly throw out what LBJ did? No. The Clinton argument holds less water than an overturned strainer.
A true miscarriage, however, this wasn't a natural miscarriage, we'll call this the presidential support of aborting laws.
Eh? He didn't exactly make up the Presidential power of commutations, y'know -- it is a long-standing part of the Constitution. How you can say he's "aborting laws" when acting in perfect compliance with them is beyond me.
Guys, Libby's conviction was not exactly the most germane thing to the Plame case. It was Richard Armitage, not Libby, who leaked Plame's identity. And the leak itself was not a crime, even if it was sleazy (I don't even think it was particularly sleazy). And Libby was not convicted of anything immediately related to the Plame investigation, merely for obstruction of justice related to his recollection of an earlier conversation.
So, in summary, he was found guilty of lying about not remembering a conversation for a non-crime he didn't commit. USMC was righter than he knows when he said this was a non-issue; if only someone had told Patrick Fitzgerald. Whether or not the conviction was legitimate, it was so far removed from the actual cause of serving justice that a commutation of his sentence was hardly beyond the pale of legitimate discussion.
The fact that Libby worked in the White House is irrelevant. If the commutation is questionable, it is questionable on its face, not because the man who's sentence was commuted used to work for the man who issued the commutation.
r0beph, you don't get to complain about "logical fallacies" while indulging in them yourself.
But there are established Justice Department guidelines that presidents are supposed to, but not mandated to, go by when it comes to INTERNAL PARDONS AND COMMUTED SENTENCES.
There has never been a time when Presidents were even morally obligated to follow such guidelines; they were put in place for the benefit of prisoners, not Presidents, to ensure that their requests would be seen and considered by the President.
The President is not obligated to consider those requests, nor is he allowed to consider only those requests. Constitutionally speaking, he can pardon people who haven't even been formally charged with a crime. (By contrast, Justice vets applications under its guidelines so heavily that only those who have served at least five years of their sentences can apply). So don't be silly.
All he said about this is "We need to reform partisan politics and restore faith in government." Well thanks, Obama. Real insightful.
So if lying under oath is such a big deal to you, I assume you supported Clinton's impeachment?
And anyway, what Scooter lied about wasn't related to the investigation.
You didn't answer my question. What else can he do other than issue a statement and not do the same thing after he's elected?
I was in 8th grade when the whole Clinton dealy do went on, but looking back on it, yeah. Dude should have fessed up about Monica because adultery, as morally wrong as it is, isn't a crime. Perjury is and action was taken.
US v. Libby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Libby) the first paragraph sums it up. He lied to federal prosecuters and obstructed the investigation of who leaked Valerie Plame's name. More than once.
Can someone clear one thing up for me!? Where was the outrage when Clinton was busy pardoning all his seedy pals? I just don't remember the uproar then that I'm seeing and hearing now. It seems we didn't really care much about it back then. Now Bush is issuing the SAME get out of jail free card and the leftists are passing football sized kidney stones over it.
-Castle
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Castle
07-05-2007, 08:52 AM
It was there, the whole thing about Marc Rich I believe his name was. But that is apples and oranges. Clinton never commuted nor pardoned anyone in his own cabinet, especially over a serious matter like this. It screams of coverup for Cheney at the very least.
Fact: Bush has said he doesnt tolerate leaks, especially of classified information in his administration.
Fact: Bush never commuted a single sentence of a death row inmate while he was Governor of Texas. Including some very questionable convictions especially of mentally disabled people.
Fact: The op-ed piece written by Joseph Wilson was contradictary of the Bush administration claim about uranium purchases by Iraq from Niger, The Joseph Wilson claims were true and the Bush claims were false.
Fact: This was done as punishment to the Wilson family for thier dissent on the matter.
Why is it that any time people are complaining about Bush, the first thing people say is Clinton this and Clinton that. Lets blame Bush for his mistakes and Clinton for his. They are two different people with two different administrations.
Because Nixon was involved in Watergate, do people immediatly throw out what LBJ did? No. The Clinton argument holds less water than an overturned strainer.
Oh really. In 140 pardons and commutations, none give you pause but this one does?! I find this hard to believe unless of course this is all agenda driven. Well there I went and let the cat out of the bag. As if we didn't already know what all this moaning is truly about.
Instead of repeating SW85 I'll just quote him.
Guys, Libby's conviction was not exactly the most germane thing to the Plame case. It was Richard Armitage, not Libby, who leaked Plame's identity. And the leak itself was not a crime, even if it was sleazy (I don't even think it was particularly sleazy). And Libby was not convicted of anything immediately related to the Plame investigation, merely for obstruction of justice related to his recollection of an earlier conversation.
The fact that Libby worked in the White House is irrelevant. If the commutation is questionable, it is questionable on its face, not because the man who's sentence was commuted used to work for the man who issued the commutation.
Thank you SW85 for inserting a few facts that I'm sure were inadvertantly left out.
So is the commuted sentences of 16 FALN members worth mentioning? How about the Edgar and Vonna Jo Gregory pardons for bank fraud. It seems Hillarys brother Tony made a bundle lobbying Clinton on their behalf. Of course there was Roger Clinton and his drug charges. The sordid list of pardons and commutations goes on but I trust you get my point. Was Clinton well within his rights as President to do this? As much as Bush is I would think. So why the double standard?
This all looks very much like a feeding frenzy and not much more.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Ahh, I see. So both are/were wrong with respect to pardons but one comes out smelling like a rose while the other is beat to a pulp over it. I'm thinking there is a little more to it than that.
-Castle
Beyond all of it not being a crime, to say that Plame's name was leaked as retaliation for her husband's positions is silly, anyway. The entire CIA was institutionally anti-war for years, and we're expected to believe a single mid-level bureaucratic malcontent was targeted for character assassination for holding the same views?
Plame's name was not "leaked." It was brought up -- by anti-war folk hero Richard Armitage, who still hasn't received an ounce of reprimand -- in connection with the fact that she sleazily used her anti-war connections to land her anti-war husband a job at the anti-war CIA. She couldn't exactly do this if she was undercover, now could she? She wasn't, which is why it wasn't a crime, and which is why she promptly went on national TV to complain about how her identity had been compromised. She did something sleazy and she got the whistle blown on her, so she deflected attention.
And now it turns out Libby was separated from the "leak investigation" (which was fraudulent to begin with) by something like three degrees of separation. Not only was he convicted of not remembering a conversation that wasn't related to the non-crime he didn't commit, the real sleazebag is being let off the hook. Like Mark Steyn said, one of the remarkable things about the American justice system is the total absence of a sense of proportion.
steveox
07-05-2007, 11:56 AM
Didnt Bill Clinton Pardon MARC RICH? So Democrats have no right to complain when Bill Clinton Pardon Marc Rich a Billionare who failed to pay his taxes!
TVoffBrainOn
07-05-2007, 01:57 PM
Didnt Bill Clinton Pardon MARC RICH? So Democrats have no right to complain when Bill Clinton Pardon Marc Rich a Billionare who failed to pay his taxes!
What's the future precedent set by Clinton pardoning Marc Rich?
By pardoning Libby, the precedent has been set for high ranking white house officials, cabinet members, and inner circle advisors to lie under oath to protect their bosses.
It's just another pillar of democracy being destroyed.
top gun
07-05-2007, 03:32 PM
USMC the Almighty;16055]What has he done during that time? I'm open to hearing anything significant that Obama has done.
I mean what exactly do you want? He was well known for doing a lot as he was coming up helping the poor. He was well respected in the state legislature... good enough to be elected to the United States Senate. He was one of the only ones that didn't fall for the Bush/Cheney BS fabricated story about why we had to invade Iraq.
I mean he hasn't cured Aids or solved world hunger but at least he's not known for screwing everything most everything he touches up like President Bush.
I've disagreed w/ the Republicans and Bush on a number of issues, most recently being illegal immigration.
Come on my friend... you're a die hard pubbie. You were against the immigration bill because it wasn't "Conservative " enough. Even Bush was to the Left of you on that one. I sure wouldn't say that shows you're not pushing the Republican cause. :confused:
And give me a break with the "corruption" talk. That's a part of politics. Clinton's Administration was notoriously corrupt. You can elect 3rd and 4th parties and they'll be corrupt.
You see? That's just not true. The Republicans witch hunted Bill Clinton relentlessly the whole time he was in office. From Whitewater to smuggling cocaine to murder... NOTHING... absolutely zero charges... NOTHING. Finally through all this investigation... millions spent looking for anything... caught him having consensual private affair with another adult... and he lied about that to protect from embarrassing himself, his wife & daughter. That's what he did.
Bush on the other hand lied us into war where thousands of are best men & women have now been killed. Tens of thousands seriously wounded while running up a budget deficit like never before seen. And now he commutes (in the end will be a full pardon) the sentence handed down by jury and a Republican judge so an administration insider can skate protecting the Vice President and himself. Comparatively speaking this administration is Al Capone.:eek:
Didnt Bill Clinton Pardon MARC RICH? So Democrats have no right to complain when Bill Clinton Pardon Marc Rich a Billionare who failed to pay his taxes!
Jesus Tapdancing Christ on a muffin.
vyo476
07-05-2007, 07:35 PM
Jesus Tapdancing Christ on a muffin.
Now there's an image. Someone call Mel Gibson and tell him we've got another movie idea for him.
steveox
07-05-2007, 09:07 PM
And get this one.Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon and the Democrats got upset.Before that Jimmy Carter pardoned Patricia Hearst a BANK ROBBER! And he also pardon all Vietnam-era draft dodgers and the Republicans didnt get upset.But what it all boils down to is when Republicans Pardon someone Democrats cry foul.But when Democrats do it nobody whines about it.
What it boils down to is that Democrats spin better than Republicans do. Everyone already knows that.
I wish you guys would stop doing the "Clinton did it" defense. It's the equivalent of saying either that it's OK when Bush does it because Clinton did it, or that it's bad when Bush does it because Clinton did it. Either way it's not flattering for Republicans and you're shooting yourselves in the foot by drawing the analogy there.
The simple fact is a commutation in this case was totally justifiable. In many of Clinton's cases, they were not. Defend the commutation on its merits; there are certainly enough of them.
The simple fact is a commutation in this case was totally justifiable.
Hell no, sir. If I lied to a federal grand jury about my role in covering up a crime, I'd be locked up before I could say "b-b-but Libby!" This is unequal justice.
The simple fact is that a crime was committed, a fair trial was conducted, an appropriate punishment was handed out, and a President helped out his buddy.
TVoffBrainOn
07-06-2007, 06:51 AM
irony: Libby was Marc Rich's attorney who lobbyed Clinton for a full pardon.
Watchemoket
07-06-2007, 09:09 AM
Steveox: "And get this one.Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon and the Democrats got upset.Before that Jimmy Carter pardoned Patricia Hearst a BANK ROBBER! And he also pardon all Vietnam-era draft dodgers and the Republicans didnt get upset.But what it all boils down to is when Republicans Pardon someone Democrats cry foul.But when Democrats do it nobody whines about it."
What the he!! do you mean "the Republicans didn't get upset" when Jimmy Carter pardoned "Vietnam-era draft dodgers"??? As I recall, they were VERY pissed off at the time. Where were you? By the way, that happened considerably AFTER Ford pardoned Nixon in a clear quid pro quo for giving him the Vice President position after Agnew resigned in disgrace. Try using facts instead of imagination as a basis for posting a statement - you might make more sense.
Hell no, sir. If I lied to a federal grand jury about my role in covering up a crime, I'd be locked up before I could say "b-b-but Libby!" This is unequal justice.
The simple fact is that a crime was committed, a fair trial was conducted, an appropriate punishment was handed out, and a President helped out his buddy.
*tsst* Go back and see my earlier post. You obviously don't understand the salient details of the case.
I am not interested in whether a fair trial was conducted. If bogus charges are prosecuted fairly, the result is still bogus -- the fruit of a poisoned tree.
Understand: Libby didn't leak (Armitage did). If he had leaked, it still wouldn't have been a crime. What he was convicted on was obstruction of justice related to his faulty recollection of a conversation with Judith Miller, a third party with almost no relevance to the case at all. The only evidence submitted against Libby was transcripts of what he said as opposed to what Judith Miller said he said -- which she openly said she wasn't really sure he said.
Here's the kicker: the only relevance of Libby's conversation with Judith Miller to the case was that it might prove Libby knew Plame was a CIA agent early enough to leak it. But we already know he didn't leak it.
The end result is that some harmless patsy was convicted, with he-said/she-said evidence, on charges only somewhat related to the investigation of a non-crime that everyone knows he didn't commit. John Jay himself could've presided over the trial; there is still no justice in convicting the man of anything. (It is, in fact, profoundly unjust).
An anti-war State Department official leaks the name of an anti-war CIA bureaucrat (the husband of an anti-war political malcontent whom she got a job at the anti-war CIA) to an anti-war reporter. And now we're expected to believe the whole thing is an exercise in pro-war CYA? Ugh.
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