Who is responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

[USMC the Almighty]

Per nospam4me's request...

[Bunz]

I will gladly come on record here and put all blame of the attacks of 9-11 on the 19 Muslim terrorists who committed it, and all those who knowlingly helped them conspire to do it. I dont put the blame on the American government, the people, and especially not the first responders. While I do not like his policy or the way he operates a government. The footage of Bush reading to the students and not reacting, is not a huge revalation, one would naturally act that way when presented with such information. Among many other examples of reaction to these attacks. They were unprecedented at the time. Nobody had trained for that sort of thing, we did the best we could with what we had. Nobody should ask for more.
Again as much as I despise most of his actions and legislation, GWB nor the US government is not demon enough to commit such atrocities. Again, the responsibility falls onto the ones who carried it out, and those who helped them.

[USMC the Almighty]

Bunz, a voice of reason.

[n0spam4me]

The catagories for your poll are lacking a block for the
MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX .... but oh well, the Pentagon will do.

Please see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-751298171535560228

Facinating stuff
no?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and as we all know
9/11 = Reichstag fire!
.

[Rokerijdude11]

agreed i hadnt voted as i dont believe the correct choices have been listed ...i agree the Industrial military complex
or the NWO or whomever? it seems to me i posted about this as well? hmmm no matter

i guess ill have to say in a "BLANKET" statement GW and the Admin although the scope is so much larger than that

[9sublime]

I can't vote either because I believe that the Jews did it with the help of Elvis. However, alien death rays is close enough.

On a serious note, I'm undecided. I'm open to America reacting in a certain way to make the damage more serious so they have more reason for war somehow, but I don't believe they wanted to kill their own people in huge numbers etc.

[steveox]

YOU DIDNT PUT THE CLINTON ADMIN!! Cause it was clearly BILL CLINTONS FAULT FOR 9-11 Cause he didnt do his job by ordering to Kill Osama Bin Laden when he had the chance.Plus Clinton was so soft on Al Qudea when he was president. When the WTC attack in 93 what did clinton do? NOTHING!!! The US Embassy attack in 1996 what did clinton do? NOTHING!!! The USS COLE attack in 2000 what did clinton do? NOTHING!!! George Bush is the only president who had the guts to go after Al Queda and SADDAM! And Clinton was a PUSSY CHICKEN**** not to go after saddam!:mad:

[TruthAboveAll]

Islamic terrorists. Islamic terrorists. ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!! The 19 directly involved, and the hundreds involved in other countries, developing the plans, creating the network, obtaining the financing, sourcing the false documentation, etc.

You can blame Bush out of your mindless hatred. Others can blame Clinton for dropping the ball on his watch. We can blame Bush 41 for not finishing the job after Kuwait and reasserting America's strength. We can blame the foreign policy, weak or too aggressive. Blame the "Imperialism" of the U.S. that the radical Muslims hate. Blame our support of Israel. Blame whoever you want.

These are the things that history is made of. Often good people, making what they believe are good decisions. The good they do being twisted and subverted by those they were trying to help, or get help from. The good they do going awry, and doing harm instead. The historical acts only setting the stage for consequences that no one could foresee.

But 9/11 was RADICAL MUSLIMS. Period. They made their choices. They are Islamic TERRORISTS, and if they were manipulated and influenced, it was by the twisted beliefs and hatred of their own people and organizations.

Period.

[michaelr]

Well it looks like I'm in the minority on this one, oh well. I 19 Arabs did this then It speaks badly for our leadership. Now I will agree that they seem like a bunch of buffoons but lest we not forget, looks can be deceiving.
There is plenty of evidence that would point the finger at a few criminals who hi-jacked or government. No, I repeat, no evidence that 19 radical half baked Arabs did it. We only have the govs word on that, by the way they came to that conclusion about 45 min after the second attack. Any who, I answered the pentagon, but this does not mean that I think that it was done by the gov, just a few rotten apples within it.

[top gun]

YOU DIDNT PUT THE CLINTON ADMIN!! Cause it was clearly BILL CLINTONS FAULT FOR 9-11 Cause he didnt do his job by ordering to Kill Osama Bin Laden when he had the chance.Plus Clinton was so soft on Al Qudea when he was president. When the WTC attack in 93 what did clinton do? NOTHING!!! The US Embassy attack in 1996 what did clinton do? NOTHING!!! The USS COLE attack in 2000 what did clinton do? NOTHING!!! George Bush is the only president who had the guts to go after Al Queda and SADDAM! And Clinton was a PUSSY CHICKEN**** not to go after saddam!:mad:

OMG! :eek:

Taking a cheap shot a President Clinton is really uncalled for. Every time Clinton did try to bomb and kill terrorists the neo-con nut bags attacked him saying it was just "wag the dog" to try and take the spotlight of his affair.

It was Islamic fundamentalist whack job terrorists but if we're going to just make partisan attacks up then let's say this. Bush was captain of the ship at the time of the attacks. It happened on the Bush watch. When you take over the presidency you can whine and complain about how bad you think things were run before... but you certainly can't say it's the last guys fault because you got caught with YOUR pants down.

OK I've vented now!!!!!!!!!!!!! In my opinion Clinton was a great president and I really don't think 911 was Bush's fault anymore than it was Clinton's.

All the blame goes on those who did the deed... the terrorists!:mad:

[steveox]

If Clinton would had done his job like he was supposed to 9-11 wouldnt took place.

[n0spam4me]

Z0, for a period of 9 months, Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney (etc...) had the oportunity to improve security by making sure that Andrews Air Base had aircraft ready to protect this nations Capital and on call 24/7. This would NOT be too big of an expense considering the BILLIONS currently spent on the military budget.

The fact is that the aleged FLT77 flew off-course and out of contact with Air Traffic Control and with its transponder turned off ( and NO that does NOT make it invisible to radar...) This off course aircraft flew for more than half an hour AFTER the second hit to the WTC before hitting the PENTAGON!

I subit to you that the
Worlds Greatest military power FAILED to defend even its own HQ.
And just exactly what was the COMMANDER in CHIEF doing while all this was going on? and for that matter, just exactly what was Richard Cheney doing at that time?

Lets face it the whole scene stinks big time!

9/11 = Reichstag Fire!
.

[Castle]

Islamic terrorists. Islamic terrorists. ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!! The 19 directly involved, and the hundreds involved in other countries, developing the plans, creating the network, obtaining the financing, sourcing the false documentation, etc.

You can blame Bush out of your mindless hatred. Others can blame Clinton for dropping the ball on his watch. We can blame Bush 41 for not finishing the job after Kuwait and reasserting America's strength. We can blame the foreign policy, weak or too aggressive. Blame the "Imperialism" of the U.S. that the radical Muslims hate. Blame our support of Israel. Blame whoever you want.

These are the things that history is made of. Often good people, making what they believe are good decisions. The good they do being twisted and subverted by those they were trying to help, or get help from. The good they do going awry, and doing harm instead. The historical acts only setting the stage for consequences that no one could foresee.

But 9/11 was RADICAL MUSLIMS. Period. They made their choices. They are Islamic TERRORISTS, and if they were manipulated and influenced, it was by the twisted beliefs and hatred of their own people and organizations.

Period.

Wow! I do believe I have a twin. I could add nothing more except thank you for saving me the time saying the exact same thing.

Bravo
-Castle

[Rokerijdude11]

Islamic terrorists. Islamic terrorists. ISLAMIC TERRORISTS!! The 19 directly involved, and the hundreds involved in other countries, developing the plans, creating the network, obtaining the financing, sourcing the false documentation, etc.

You can blame Bush out of your mindless hatred. Others can blame Clinton for dropping the ball on his watch. We can blame Bush 41 for not finishing the job after Kuwait and reasserting America's strength. We can blame the foreign policy, weak or too aggressive. Blame the "Imperialism" of the U.S. that the radical Muslims hate. Blame our support of Israel. Blame whoever you want.

These are the things that history is made of. Often good people, making what they believe are good decisions. The good they do being twisted and subverted by those they were trying to help, or get help from. The good they do going awry, and doing harm instead. The historical acts only setting the stage for consequences that no one could foresee.

But 9/11 was RADICAL MUSLIMS. Period. They made their choices. They are Islamic TERRORISTS, and if they were manipulated and influenced, it was by the twisted beliefs and hatred of their own people and organizations.

Period.

spoken like a good lil Amerikan Nazi

[USMC the Almighty]

spoken like a good lil Amerikan Nazi

Nothing but the most intelligent stuff coming from your corner Roker.

[Rokerijdude11]

glad it meets your limited requirements Heimlich

[r0beph]

spoken like a good lil Amerikan Nazi

You make Godwin proud....

[Castle]

spoken like a good lil Amerikan Nazi
"Amerikan Nazi"?!
Some people take their conspiracy theories a bit too serious don't you think!

-Castle

[Rokerijdude11]

time will tell that story............we shall see

[USMC the Almighty]

glad it meets your limited requirements Heimlich

Let's relax with the namecalling.

[Rokerijdude11]

hahahahahahahahahahah

get real

[TruthAboveAll]

spoken like a good lil Amerikan Nazi

I'll tell ya what. Given the venom so often in your mindless responses, I'll just chalk that up to a "consider the source" situation.

My step dad, God rest his soul, lived with the memories seared in his mind of what he found in Europe during and after WWII. He was a good, kind-hearted man but the word "Nazi" represented evil incarnate to him, and he passed that along to me.

My own father, who died in a car accident when I was 7, served in the Pacific front. He died before I had much "maturity" to hear and understand his experiences in the war. He did not fight the Nazi's in Europe, but he fought their allies, who proved capable of the same brutality against innocents that Hitler and his ill-begotten ilk possessed.

You, sir, have just said the most evil, hurtful and at the same time ABSURD thing you could say to me. I have never called you names, nor mocked you. But you have crossed a line that won't be forgotten here. To label me that is outrageous, and you are obviously sick. Go take your meds. They're calling you...

[TruthAboveAll]

Wow! I do believe I have a twin. I could add nothing more except thank you for saving me the time saying the exact same thing.

Bravo
-Castle

Thanks, Castle. I had to come back and read this a couple times after feeling soiled by Roker's asinine labeling. I meant every word, and so very glad you agree!

[Rokerijdude11]

I'll tell ya what. Given the venom so often in your mindless responses, I'll just chalk that up to a "consider the source" situation.

My step dad, God rest his soul, lived with the memories seared in his mind of what he found in Europe during and after WWII. He was a good, kind-hearted man but the word "Nazi" represented evil incarnate to him, and he passed that along to me.

My own father, who died in a car accident when I was 7, served in the Pacific front. He died before I had much "maturity" to hear and understand his experiences in the war. He did not fight the Nazi's in Europe, but he fought their allies, who proved capable of the same brutality against innocents that Hitler and his ill-begotten ilk possessed.

You, sir, have just said the most evil, hurtful and at the same time ABSURD thing you could say to me. I have never called you names, nor mocked you. But you have crossed a line that won't be forgotten here. To label me that is outrageous, and you are obviously sick. Go take your meds. They're calling you...

Ill tell you what you lil pipsqueak...... you go ask any Jewish American, who was alive during that time period and saw how the Nazi's pulled off what they did.
You ask them what they think about whats happening right now today in America.I'll tell you what they'll tell you... its happening again! I don,t use the term Lightly I understand the connotations behind the evil that is the Nazi Ideology

I assure you it NEVER DIED.... and its alive at the highest levels of power today in the world. Including Here in the United States....look at the undeniable connections between America and the Nazi war machine. before..during...and after the war...........interestingly the Bush Family is steeped in this story as well

You know what your an angry punk who hasn't the slightest clue, as to the depths of what we are speaking on. I have had NUMEROUS old timers warn me for YEARS..... that its happening again. The German people said it couldn't happen to them too.....

there Are Staggering parrallels of the greatest proportion that you are unaware of ...

Another thing, BOTH of the grandfathers I grew up with Fought in ww2 against the Nazis, as did my grandmother on my mothers side's first husband, who died over Holland in Operation market garden. they saw what the nazi's did first hand. And secondly skippy i have travelled Europe EXTENSIVELY, I have been to Aushwitz, I have been to Malme'dy, I have been to Anne Franks house ....don't even begin to tell me, SQUAT about the Nazis, or the use of the term...........

Ive been there ,Ive seen the evil that still lives in the dirt....
and i see the same evil in America today. and the American people say It cant happen here......it wont happen here.
your insane, blah blah blah just like the German people did
back then

as far as the comment about meds...............seems like you know the routine fairly well huh? ill leave it at that

[Castle]

Ive been there ,Ive seen the evil that still lives in the dirt....
and i see the same evil in America today. and the American people say It cant happen here......it wont happen here.
your insane, blah blah blah just like the German people did
back then
Why do you exaggerate to the point of obsurdity? You say you know people that were there and that you yourself have been there. With a straight face you claim you see the same thing happening in America today. It appears more likely that you want to see the unspeakable horrors of WWII Germany in present day America to satisfy some twisted political agenda. So you see big bad uncle Sam in every closet, under every bed and in every shadowy corner coming to march us all off to the ovens.

Your assertions are simply obsurd ramblings.

- Castle

[USMC the Almighty]

there Are Staggering parrallels of the greatest proportion that you are unaware of ...

Like what?

[OPGhostdog]

Steve, STOP blaming Clinton Damn it. Are you on speed or PCP?
If anyone did not do their job was that old goat Daddy Bush in
Desert Storm. Its understanable when someone calls another
person a name, due to the fact that a asshole post would make
anyone pissed off, and to see how mis-informed information is
posted is a damn shame.

Now if you would have did your homework this Middle East BS
started long before Clinton, and that's when it should have been
stopped. Here is a suggestion THAT might help to stop name
calling. Research the information that you are about to post.
This way you won't be posting a bunch of paragenda bull****.

Situations where people speak to soon always starts a chain
reaction. All kind of so called facts is reviewed everyday on
tele-a-lie vision, and in the media news print.
Most people know the real facts when they hear or read it,
and people know the BS from the real.

[Rokerijdude11]

Why do you exaggerate to the point of obsurdity? You say you know people that were there and that you yourself have been there. With a straight face you claim you see the same thing happening in America today. It appears more likely that you want to see the unspeakable horrors of WWII Germany in present day America to satisfy some twisted political agenda. So you see big bad uncle Sam in every closet, under every bed and in every shadowy corner coming to march us all off to the ovens.

Your assertions are simply obsurd ramblings.

- Castle

Another simple mind checks in. here let me explain this for you I STILL DO KNOW people who were in Nazi Concentration Camps. Is that so hard for your simple mind to wrap around? there are many Holocaust survivors who are still alive today? whats absurd is your ignorance of this fact. now here comes the second part

I have BEEN to all of those places...........i Obviously wasn't there during ww2 as i'm just coming on 50 years of age.I do see the same thing happening in America Today ....and so should alot of you .Like i said don't take my word for it go talk to a Holocaust survivor and have em tell you what they think...

they aren't going to send us to the oven...we are the Germans in this Go around....Its all about the Nazi Doctrine of supremacy and power Globally a Global agenda.......Thule.....Bilderbergs......the list is exhaustive




NO sparky I don't want to see the same horrors befall us that befell the German people and the Jewish people. Take a look at your beloved administration look at abu gharib look at the way we are handling ourselves as the leaders of the world


Educate yourself on the Bush-Nazi Ties, and the Business practices of such.....No i don't see Uncle SAM, in every closet, or anything of the like? But then why would i expect an idiot to understand what i m saying? Your simply one of the many who will succumb, when the time comes



And another thing I never once implied that they were going to march you off to the ovens.............they dont need to cull in such a barbaric manner these days. If and when they decide to cull it wont be like that.......

as i say whats absurd...................is your sheer blindness of the reality.....its far too deep to explain all to you folks in a few posts on a message board.take a close look all around you youll see it its there ask a survivor what they think......


Ill talk to saul in an hour and ill ask him and his buddies again......maybe i can get HIM to post

[TVoffBrainOn]

Like what?

would you read about it? objectively?

[USMC the Almighty]

would you read about it? objectively?

If it made sense and was historically accurate and wasn't copied and pasted. I'd prefer a synopsis in your own words.

[TVoffBrainOn]

If it made sense and was historically accurate and wasn't copied and pasted. I'd prefer a synopsis in your own words.

- create the enemy

I hope we can agree that terrorism, as it pertains to America, is a product of American and European Foreign Policy in the middle east over the last 50-100 years. After 9/11 the Patriot Act, already written and waiting for it's moment in history, was rushed through Congress. You know the story... no one read it, wee hour of the morning changes, etc. It's too easy to draw parallels between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Act. Sure sure, there have been other times of crisis where America has "accepted" limits on civil liberties. Lincoln/Civil War, WW2/Japanese-American Internment.... but those wars had ends. there was always a known point in time when the pendulum would swing back in Freedom's favor. This war is an endless war, defined as open ended and without boundaries.

Creating a threat is the oldest trick in the book, but just like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat after the Reichstag fire, it can be based on a real event. 9/11 was the real event. But the real event is usually coupled with myth, like the "global conspiracy of world jewry". It is not that global Islamist terrorism is not a severe danger... of course it is. I am arguing rather that the language used to convey the nature of the threat is different in a country such as Spain (which has also suffered violent terrorist attacks) than it is in America. Spanish citizens know that they face a grave security threat. what we as American citizens believe is that we are potentially threatened with the end of civilisation as we know it. Of course, this makes us more willing to accept restrictions on our freedoms.

- creat the gulag

Once everyone is scared, create a prison system outside the rule of law. guantanamo, abu ghraib, secret cia prisons in europe, also look at the mock detention center during the RNC national convention 2004.

gulags in history tend to metastasise, becoming ever larger and more secretive, ever more deadly and formalised. We know from first-hand accounts, photographs, videos and government documents that people, innocent and guilty, have been tortured in the US-run prisons we are aware of and those we can't investigate adequately.

But Americans still assume this system and detainee abuses involve only scary brown people with whom they don't generally identify. "First they came for the Jews"....Most Americans don't understand yet that the destruction of the rule of law at Guantánamo set a dangerous precedent for them, too.

Military Tribunals? yup Mussolini and Stalin did that too."The People's Court"

- paid thugs

Italy had the Blackshirts, Germany had the Brownshirts, America has Blackwater and other private contracting "security" firms. The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution

Sure that's in Iraq, but all you have to do is look to events like Hurrican Katrina or the RNC convention to see the signs of a police state.

Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election... history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".

- set up the surveillance system/harrass the citizen groups

In closed societies, this surveillance is cast as being about "national security", the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent. A little-noticed new law has redefined activism such as animal rights protests as "terrorism". So the definition of "terrorist" slowly expands to include the opposition.

we dont have to get into warrantless surveillance do we?

- begin targetting the opposition

a quick search of left wing people on the no fly list is an easy place to start. Ted Kennedy? a US Senator? seriously? but it doesnt stop there of course. Bush supporters in state legislatures in several states put pressure on regents at state universities to penalise or fire academics who have been critical of the administration. as for civil servants, the Bush administration has derailed the career of one military lawyer who spoke up for fair trials for detainees, while an administration official publicly intimidated the law firms that represent detainees pro bono by threatening to call for their major corporate clients to boycott them.

Most recently, the administration purged eight US attorneys for what looks like insufficient political loyalty. When Goebbels purged the civil service in April 1933, attorneys were "coordinated" too, a step that eased the way of the increasingly brutal laws to follow.

i could go on...

- Control the press

Josh Wolf, 1 year in prison for refusing to turn over video of an anti war demonstration. even though it was acknowledged that the video did not contain anything useful.

Homeland Security brought a criminal complaint against reporter Greg Palast, claiming he threatened "critical infrastructure" when he and a TV producer were filming victims of Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Palast had written a bestseller critical of the Bush administration.

Other reporters and writers have been punished in other ways. Joseph C Wilson accused Bush, in a New York Times op-ed, of leading the country to war on the basis of a false charge that Saddam Hussein had acquired yellowcake uranium in Niger. His wife, Valerie Plame, was outed as a CIA spy - a form of retaliation that ended her career.

Prosecution and job loss are nothing, though, compared with how the US is treating journalists seeking to cover the conflict in Iraq in an unbiased way. The Committee to Protect Journalists has documented multiple accounts of the US military in Iraq firing upon or threatening to fire upon unembedded (meaning independent) reporters and camera operators from organisations ranging from al-Jazeera to the BBC. While westerners may question the accounts by al-Jazeera, they should pay attention to the accounts of reporters such as the BBC's Kate Adie. In some cases reporters have been wounded or killed, including ITN's Terry Lloyd in 2003. Both CBS and the Associated Press in Iraq had staff members seized by the US military and taken to violent prisons; the news organisations were unable to see the evidence against their staffers.

Over time in closing societies, real news is supplanted by fake news and false documents. Pinochet showed chilean citizens falsified documents to back up his claim that terrorists had been about to attack the nation. The yellowcake charge, too, was based on forged papers.

- Dissent equals treason

most Americans do not realise that when Congress wrongly, foolishly, passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006 - the president has the power to call any US citizen an "enemy combatant". He has the power to define what "enemy combatant" means. The president can also delegate to anyone he chooses in the executive branch the right to define "enemy combatant" any way he or she wants and then seize Americans accordingly.

Most Americans surely do not get this yet. No wonder: it is hard to believe, even though it is true. In every closing society, at a certain point there are some high-profile arrests - usually of opposition leaders, clergy and journalists. Then everything goes quiet. After those arrests, there are still newspapers, courts, TV and radio, and the facades of a civil society. There just isn't real dissent. There just isn't freedom. If you look at history, just before those arrests is where we are now.

- suspend the rule of law


The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 gave the president new powers over the national guard. This means that in a national emergency - which the president now has enhanced powers to declare - he can send Michigan's militia to enforce a state of emergency that he has declared in Oregon, over the objections of the state's governor and its citizens.

Critics see this as a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act - which was meant to restrain the federal government from using the military for domestic law enforcement. The Democratic senator Patrick Leahy says the bill encourages a president to declare federal martial law. It also violates the very reason the founders set up our system of government as they did: having seen citizens bullied by a monarch's soldiers, the founders were terrified of exactly this kind of concentration of militias' power over American people in the hands of an oppressive executive or faction.

Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing-down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.

Rather our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion.


and i didnt even touch on the corporatist and theocratic aspects.

[Abraxis Axis]

Superb..................................

simply Superb

you should also touch on the rest of this fine article it has so many other interesting points
you layed out the ones you chose nicely

[n0spam4me]

I wish I could write, but alas, my talents lie in other areas.

May I urge all taxpayers and voters of this land to communicate with your Senators and Congresspeople! They NEED to hear from you.

A! Where are we going? .... and why are we in this handbasket?

[USMC the Almighty]

- create the enemy

I hope we can agree that terrorism, as it pertains to America, is a product of American and European Foreign Policy in the middle east over the last 50-100 years.

This is typical of you to blame terrorism on the West. It's not foreign policy that drives them to kill “infidels” and they say as much. Hassan, a former radical Islamist said: “I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy. By blaming the Government for our actions… they did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.”

Perhaps this also explains why you are unwilling to believe that people were driven by their religion to fly planes into American buildings and instead chose some grand conspiracy that satisfies your denial of the existence of evil.

After 9/11 the Patriot Act, already written and waiting for it's moment in history, was rushed through Congress. You know the story... no one read it, wee hour of the morning changes, etc. It's too easy to draw parallels between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Act. Sure sure, there have been other times of crisis where America has "accepted" limits on civil liberties. Lincoln/Civil War, WW2/Japanese-American Internment.... but those wars had ends. There was always a known point in time when the pendulum would swing back in Freedom's favor. This war is an endless war, defined as open ended and without boundaries.

You forgot John Adams, Woodrow Wilson, Bill Clinton… What makes you think these wars had “ends”? The Civil War, much like today, was a war of civilizations – a war of conflicting ideas. WW2 was also the first war where civilians became legitimate military targets, so your comparisons aren’t exactly correct.

Creating a threat is the oldest trick in the book, but just like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat after the Reichstag fire, it can be based on a real event. 9/11 was the real event. But the real event is usually coupled with myth, like the "global conspiracy of world jewry". It is not that global Islamist terrorism is not a severe danger... of course it is. I am arguing rather that the language used to convey the nature of the threat is different in a country such as Spain (which has also suffered violent terrorist attacks) than it is in America. Spanish citizens know that they face a grave security threat. what we as American citizens believe is that we are potentially threatened with the end of civilisation as we know it. Of course, this makes us more willing to accept restrictions on our freedoms.

This is where I think that liberals are seriously mistaken. As I said above, I truly believe that liberals are more reluctant to accept the existence of evil and they’d rather fabricate their own source of problems (“neocons” in this case) then accept the real ones.

History has shown the devastating consequences for average people when their leaders fail to heed the words of evil men and no where is this more evident than in WW2. If world leaders had taken seriously the word of Stalin, Mussolini, and Hitler when they made their threats, then millions of people might still be alive. I see no reason to not take the Iranian President seriously when he says he wants to wipe Israel off the map and declares war on the West.

Just as in the years leading up to World War II, the signs are all around us. The rise of Hamas. The re-arming of Hezbollah. The Iranian dictatorship's relentless drive for nuclear weapons. Terrorists from New Jersey to London to Iraq and Pakistan who are saying repeatedly and publicly that they want nothing more than to kill us.

Getting back to my point here, the reason that Americans take the Islamic threat more serious than the Spanish is because we value liberty more than they do (remember, Spain has allowed tyranny and dictatorships to run their country) and thus, are less likely to try and appease evil. No one has given more for liberty than the American soldier, and as such, we are the least likely to give in to those who threaten it. This has nothing to do with a willingness to accept “restrictions” and has everything to do with a willingness to recognize evil and prevent it from destroying our civilization.


- creat the gulag

Once everyone is scared, create a prison system outside the rule of law. guantanamo, abu ghraib, secret cia prisons in europe, also look at the mock detention center during the RNC national convention 2004.

gulags in history tend to metastasise, becoming ever larger and more secretive, ever more deadly and formalised. We know from first-hand accounts, photographs, videos and government documents that people, innocent and guilty, have been tortured in the US-run prisons we are aware of and those we can't investigate adequately.

But Americans still assume this system and detainee abuses involve only scary brown people with whom they don't generally identify. "First they came for the Jews"....Most Americans don't understand yet that the destruction of the rule of law at Guantánamo set a dangerous precedent for them, too.

Military Tribunals? yup Mussolini and Stalin did that too."The People's Court"

You were challenged to draw parallels between the Nazis and President Bush’s Administration. Military prisons and tribunals are nothing new. In fact, they date back to the Revolution.

Secondly, I have yet to see one shred of evidence of torture at Guantanamo.

That’s all the time I have right now. I’ll try to find some time to respond to your other points. Though I don’t agree, I can appreciate your thoughtfulness and thoroughness – something that the “Bush=Hitler” crowd almost never displays.

[OPGhostdog]

- create the enemy

I hope we can agree that terrorism, as it pertains to America, is a product of American and European Foreign Policy in the middle east over the last 50-100 years. After 9/11 the Patriot Act, already written and waiting for it's moment in history, was rushed through Congress. You know the story... no one read it, wee hour of the morning changes, etc. It's too easy to draw parallels between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Act. Sure sure, there have been other times of crisis where America has "accepted" limits on civil liberties. Lincoln/Civil War, WW2/Japanese-American Internment.... but those wars had ends. there was always a known point in time when the pendulum would swing back in Freedom's favor. This war is an endless war, defined as open ended and without boundaries.

Creating a threat is the oldest trick in the book, but just like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat after the Reichstag fire, it can be based on a real event. 9/11 was the real event. But the real event is usually coupled with myth, like the "global conspiracy of world jewry". It is not that global Islamist terrorism is not a severe danger... of course it is. I am arguing rather that the language used to convey the nature of the threat is different in a country such as Spain (which has also suffered violent terrorist attacks) than it is in America. Spanish citizens know that they face a grave security threat. what we as American citizens believe is that we are potentially threatened with the end of civilisation as we know it. Of course, this makes us more willing to accept restrictions on our freedoms.

- creat the gulag

Once everyone is scared, create a prison system outside the rule of law. guantanamo, abu ghraib, secret cia prisons in europe, also look at the mock detention center during the RNC national convention 2004.

gulags in history tend to metastasise, becoming ever larger and more secretive, ever more deadly and formalised. We know from first-hand accounts, photographs, videos and government documents that people, innocent and guilty, have been tortured in the US-run prisons we are aware of and those we can't investigate adequately.

But Americans still assume this system and detainee abuses involve only scary brown people with whom they don't generally identify. "First they came for the Jews"....Most Americans don't understand yet that the destruction of the rule of law at Guantánamo set a dangerous precedent for them, too.

Military Tribunals? yup Mussolini and Stalin did that too."The People's Court"

- paid thugs

Italy had the Blackshirts, Germany had the Brownshirts, America has Blackwater and other private contracting "security" firms. The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution

Sure that's in Iraq, but all you have to do is look to events like Hurrican Katrina or the RNC convention to see the signs of a police state.

Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election... history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".

- set up the surveillance system/harrass the citizen groups

In closed societies, this surveillance is cast as being about "national security", the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent. A little-noticed new law has redefined activism such as animal rights protests as "terrorism". So the definition of "terrorist" slowly expands to include the opposition.

we dont have to get into warrantless surveillance do we?

- begin targetting the opposition

a quick search of left wing people on the no fly list is an easy place to start. Ted Kennedy? a US Senator? seriously? but it doesnt stop there of course. Bush supporters in state legislatures in several states put pressure on regents at state universities to penalise or fire academics who have been critical of the administration. as for civil servants, the Bush administration has derailed the career of one military lawyer who spoke up for fair trials for detainees, while an administration official publicly intimidated the law firms that represent detainees pro bono by threatening to call for their major corporate clients to boycott them.

Most recently, the administration purged eight US attorneys for what looks like insufficient political loyalty. When Goebbels purged the civil service in April 1933, attorneys were "coordinated" too, a step that eased the way of the increasingly brutal laws to follow.

i could go on...

- Control the press

Josh Wolf, 1 year in prison for refusing to turn over video of an anti war demonstration. even though it was acknowledged that the video did not contain anything useful.

Homeland Security brought a criminal complaint against reporter Greg Palast, claiming he threatened "critical infrastructure" when he and a TV producer were filming victims of Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Palast had written a bestseller critical of the Bush administration.

Other reporters and writers have been punished in other ways. Joseph C Wilson accused Bush, in a New York Times op-ed, of leading the country to war on the basis of a false charge that Saddam Hussein had acquired yellowcake uranium in Niger. His wife, Valerie Plame, was outed as a CIA spy - a form of retaliation that ended her career.

Prosecution and job loss are nothing, though, compared with how the US is treating journalists seeking to cover the conflict in Iraq in an unbiased way. The Committee to Protect Journalists has documented multiple accounts of the US military in Iraq firing upon or threatening to fire upon unembedded (meaning independent) reporters and camera operators from organisations ranging from al-Jazeera to the BBC. While westerners may question the accounts by al-Jazeera, they should pay attention to the accounts of reporters such as the BBC's Kate Adie. In some cases reporters have been wounded or killed, including ITN's Terry Lloyd in 2003. Both CBS and the Associated Press in Iraq had staff members seized by the US military and taken to violent prisons; the news organisations were unable to see the evidence against their staffers.

Over time in closing societies, real news is supplanted by fake news and false documents. Pinochet showed chilean citizens falsified documents to back up his claim that terrorists had been about to attack the nation. The yellowcake charge, too, was based on forged papers.

- Dissent equals treason

most Americans do not realise that when Congress wrongly, foolishly, passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006 - the president has the power to call any US citizen an "enemy combatant". He has the power to define what "enemy combatant" means. The president can also delegate to anyone he chooses in the executive branch the right to define "enemy combatant" any way he or she wants and then seize Americans accordingly.

Most Americans surely do not get this yet. No wonder: it is hard to believe, even though it is true. In every closing society, at a certain point there are some high-profile arrests - usually of opposition leaders, clergy and journalists. Then everything goes quiet. After those arrests, there are still newspapers, courts, TV and radio, and the facades of a civil society. There just isn't real dissent. There just isn't freedom. If you look at history, just before those arrests is where we are now.

- suspend the rule of law


The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 gave the president new powers over the national guard. This means that in a national emergency - which the president now has enhanced powers to declare - he can send Michigan's militia to enforce a state of emergency that he has declared in Oregon, over the objections of the state's governor and its citizens.

Critics see this as a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act - which was meant to restrain the federal government from using the military for domestic law enforcement. The Democratic senator Patrick Leahy says the bill encourages a president to declare federal martial law. It also violates the very reason the founders set up our system of government as they did: having seen citizens bullied by a monarch's soldiers, the founders were terrified of exactly this kind of concentration of militias' power over American people in the hands of an oppressive executive or faction.

Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing-down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.

Rather our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion.


and i didnt even touch on the corporatist and theocratic aspects.


I am glad you did not touch on the other two aspects, due to
the fact that if you did you would have completed a book, and
since you like to write...Beacon Books is hiring.

[TVoffBrainOn]

This is typical of you to blame terrorism on the West. It's not foreign policy that drives them to kill “infidels” and they say as much. Hassan, a former radical Islamist said: “I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy. By blaming the Government for our actions… they did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.”

Perhaps this also explains why you are unwilling to believe that people were driven by their religion to fly planes into American buildings and instead chose some grand conspiracy that satisfies your denial of the existence of evil.


its typical of you to give the west a free pass

I don't deny the existent of evil. and i do believe that the terrorists on the 9/11 flights were driven by their religion to fly planes into American Buildings. It's just that i dont conform to a narrow minded ideaology that insists that everything in the world fit into it's walls of comfort.

The problem with your viewpoint is that it is completely illogical. You put 1 quote from some nobody and you think that means that imperial events and human rights violations over the last century dont play a large part in molding the hate and angst that is tought THROUGH the Koran.

You really think foreign policy in the middle east and around the world has not had a major affect on the growth and ideaology of terrorism. i mean, i know that it doesn't fit into your perfect outlook on things, but you're a very smart man, how can you deny this?

look at me i found a quote

"We don't really give a damn for what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're really talking the Roman Empire here. We'll do anything we want to do and anywhere we want to do it. You're either with us or against us. Multi-lateral institutions like the UN are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be. This is the image we're sending to the world. That is what much of the world feels about this country this minute."

Charles Lewis, from the Center for Public Integrity in Washington DC, USA

im looking forward to your comments on the other points.

[TVoffBrainOn]

This has nothing to do with a willingness to accept “restrictions” and has everything to do with a willingness to recognize evil and prevent it from destroying our civilization.

Spoken like a german in the 1930's

[QUOTE]

You were challenged to draw parallels between the Nazis and President Bush’s Administration. Military prisons and tribunals are nothing new. In fact, they date back to the Revolution.

Secondly, I have yet to see one shred of evidence of torture at Guantanamo.

That’s all the time I have right now. I’ll try to find some time to respond to your other points. Though I don’t agree, I can appreciate your thoughtfulness and thoroughness – something that the “Bush=Hitler” crowd almost never displays.

i thought i was challenged to draw parallels between world war fascism and american fascism.

you wouldn't see evidence of torture at Guantanamo if you were isolated in a cell with it for 2 months. ;)

[political mutt]

I wish I could write, but alas, my talents lie in other areas.

May I urge all taxpayers and voters of this land to communicate with your Senators and Congresspeople! They NEED to hear from you.

A! Where are we going? .... and why are we in this handbasket?

you can write this well!

It is a very skillful cut-n-paste job. So skillful that it flat flew over USMC'S head. He asked for a non cut-n-paste, got one anyhow and then commened him on it?
The cut-n-paste was very skillful, and really not total C&P. The author used C&P, and personal commentary together. As you see, if you have the time ,it can be quite effective.

[USMC the Almighty]

you can write this well!

It is a very skillful cut-n-paste job. So skillful that it flat flew over USMC'S head. He asked for a non cut-n-paste, got one anyhow and then commened him on it?
The cut-n-paste was very skillful, and really not total C&P. The author used C&P, and personal commentary together. As you see, if you have the time ,it can be quite effective.

I just took his word on it. I didn't really find it necessary to go through and check whether or not he copied and pasted anything, though I shouldn't be surprised.

[Beetle Bailey]

I don't know who is ultimately responsible for 911. I sure do know who is responsible for ****ing everything up since 911. And we call this guy commander in chief. What an embarrassment. No wonder we are not winning. Not winning in Iraq. Not winning in Afghanistan. Not winning the so called War on Terror.

[TVoffBrainOn]

you can write this well!

It is a very skillful cut-n-paste job. So skillful that it flat flew over USMC'S head. He asked for a non cut-n-paste, got one anyhow and then commened him on it?
The cut-n-paste was very skillful, and really not total C&P. The author used C&P, and personal commentary together. As you see, if you have the time ,it can be quite effective.

I just took his word on it. I didn't really find it necessary to go through and check whether or not he copied and pasted anything, though I shouldn't be surprised.

oh brother

[Castle]

Another simple mind checks in. here let me explain this for you I STILL DO KNOW people who were in Nazi Concentration Camps. Is that so hard for your simple mind to wrap around? there are many Holocaust survivors who are still alive today? whats absurd is your ignorance of this fact. now here comes the second part

I have BEEN to all of those places...........i Obviously wasn't there during ww2 as i'm just coming on 50 years of age.I do see the same thing happening in America Today ....and so should alot of you .Like i said don't take my word for it go talk to a Holocaust survivor and have em tell you what they think...

they aren't going to send us to the oven...we are the Germans in this Go around....Its all about the Nazi Doctrine of supremacy and power Globally a Global agenda.......Thule.....Bilderbergs......the list is exhaustive
Well, as I am obviously just another simple mind, I'm sure that superiority complex buried in your delusional mind wont be too taxed if I ask you to draw comparisons between present day America and WWII Nazi Germany. Of course I will have to ask you to be accurate. I know, I know....that's not fair but I do require it if you expect an honest debate.

NO sparky I don't want to see the same horrors befall us that befell the German people and the Jewish people. Take a look at your beloved administration look at abu gharib look at the way we are handling ourselves as the leaders of the world
Well click your heels together three times and say "there's no place like home"
Is this the best you can do?! please tell me you have more than abu gharib! An isolated incident not sanctioned by the US Government. If I remember correctly, those involved were prosecuted and rightfully punished. Did the Nazi's of WWII Germany handle this in the same way? Did the Nazi media run wild with similar stories during WWII? Oh thats right, there was NO German news media except that approved by Hitler! Well there goes that fantasy!


Educate yourself on the Bush-Nazi Ties, and the Business practices of such.....No i don't see Uncle SAM, in every closet, or anything of the like? But then why would i expect an idiot to understand what i m saying? Your simply one of the many who will succumb, when the time comes
Oh, ok....I understand now. You're crystal ball tells you that, in time, your predictions will come to pass. Ok......I'm an idiot. You just keep rubbing that crystal ball. I'll base my conclusions on the mistakes of the past with the hope that people like you don't make them again.



And another thing I never once implied that they were going to march you off to the ovens.............they dont need to cull in such a barbaric manner these days. If and when they decide to cull it wont be like that.......

as i say whats absurd...................is your sheer blindness of the reality.....its far too deep to explain all to you folks in a few posts on a message board.take a close look all around you youll see it its there ask a survivor what they think......


Ill talk to saul in an hour and ill ask him and his buddies again......maybe i can get HIM to post
Please explain in detail what it will be like in that jaded mind of yours. You have my undivided attention as I am truly fascinated to hear your slant.

I also look forward to hearing from saul is it? The horrors of Nazi concentration camps will surly be paralleled with current US policy! I'm sure once this is properly explained to me I will look upon the savagery of Islamic fascism with new eyes and embrace the same revisionist history that you do. Good luck with that!

- Castle

[icono1]

Bunz(page 1 quote#2) I agree. Pres Bush reacted like he was in an immediate state of disbelief and real anger (some label those reactions as a degree of psychological shock); that is a reaction not a non-reaction and very 'normal' for the given situation. I've seen it many times.

[OPGhostdog]

Who is responsible for the 9/11 attacks?
Islamic terrorists
George Bush and his Administration
the Pentagon
alien death rays
all of the above?


I won't vote for any of the poll items, due to the fact that
the first two is blaming each other, and the Pentagon is
confused. Now what a small mind to say Alien Death Rays.
This oil crisis started long before 1985, and I believe that
once we leave the Middle East's business alone the better
off we will be.

Also I believe that the terrorism crisis RED ALERT will go
down by 70 % if we can learn to mind our own business.
Our Government is good at hitting us in the head with
paragenda, and this way we are to busy rubbing our
heads to see anything else.

Who is responsible for 9-11, but before that question can
be answered look at the back history of the oil crisis in
the Middle East, and from there YOU decide who is the
one responsible for the Middle East war.

[TruthAboveAll]

I know that this was in response to USMC, and I'm sure that he'll be along when time permits to respond. But there are a few things I'd like to mention on this post:

its typical of you to give the west a free pass
I don't deny the existent of evil. and i do believe that the terrorists on the 9/11 flights were driven by their religion to fly planes into American Buildings. It's just that i dont conform to a narrow minded ideaology that insists that everything in the world fit into it's walls of comfort.

USMC did not give the west a free pass. When he quoted Hasan, saying "... By blaming the Government for our actions… they did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.” He is not pretending that our government has not made mistakes in the Middle East, and elsewhere in the world for that manner. And Hasan is one of an unidentified number who would corroborate if not in fear for their families, safety and lives. Defying the rule in radical Islam is not good for your health.

If you really want to blame it on the U.S., why don't you just go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution? The U.S. was hugely responsible for all the modern conveniences of the world we know today. It did not exist at all as recently as 200 years ago. A drop in the bucket as history goes. Without all the technology we've developed, and encouraged others to develop from our success, the Islamic people would still be warring, nomadic tribes. Violence has been an over-powering force in their life and history.

Your statement about not conforming to "a narrow minded" ideology is baffling. Fitting in a comfort zone? I think there may be those that could apply to, but I don't think it applies to anyone here attempting to discuss these issues in a thoughtful, rational manner. There is an area that is black and white where good and evil is concerned. Adding too many shades of gray is dangerous.

The problem with your viewpoint is that it is completely illogical. You put 1 quote from some nobody and you think that means that imperial events and human rights violations over the last century dont play a large part in molding the hate and angst that is tought THROUGH the Koran.

Why is it that you, and others who support your viewpoint, often claim that any viewpoint opposing yours is illogical? Because the logic utilized to form my opinion may differ from the logic you utilize does not imply that either of us is illogical. It could be the case, but it is not necessarily the fact.

If possible, I'd also be interested to see citation of the "imperial events" and "human rights violations" you refer to. The Koran existed long before the U.S. even came on the world scene. If "hatred and angst" are taught through it, it was there long before us. If you think otherwise, look at history, and the bloody, vicious acts one sect, tribe, etc. committed against another, or any of other faiths that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You really think foreign policy in the middle east and around the world has not had a major affect on the growth and ideaology of terrorism. i mean, i know that it doesn't fit into your perfect outlook on things, but you're a very smart man, how can you deny this?

Actually, I think that foreign policy in the Middle East (and yes, around the world) has had many major effects. Some are good, some are not-so-good, some are downright rotten. But in the balance, the U.S. has done more for the world and to improve it's overall condition than any other human worldly force in history. Mistakes? Sure! But the alternative is really to stay home, keep our toys to ourselves, and let the world go to Hell in a hand basket.

A perfect outlook? If you get that from USMC's posts, or mine (along with others of similar minds), you're dead wrong. None of us any kind of Pollyanna's. But we're also not going to stand by while others try to make the U.S. into some kind of evil entity on a global scale. And that is for us, you, me all of us, to make sure NEVER happens. But based on truth and fact, not on skewed perceptions and one-sided arguments. The light of truth and history must be applied, with commitment and objectivity.

You are totally correct: USMC is one very smart and discerning person. He will not easily fall into any ideological trap that only presents select aspects of issues. And he recognizes evil for what it is, and not a vague title some lightly use just to appear they grasp the concept.

look at me i found a quote

"We don't really give a damn for what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're really talking the Roman Empire here. We'll do anything we want to do and anywhere we want to do it. You're either with us or against us. Multi-lateral institutions like the UN are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be. This is the image we're sending to the world. That is what much of the world feels about this country this minute."

Charles Lewis, from the Center for Public Integrity in Washington DC, USA

An interesting quote, and congratulations on finding it.

The first part is wrong. We DO care what others think. Otherwise, Saddam Hussein would have been eliminated in the early 90's. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have been killed, despite the messy details of wiping out entire villages to get to him. We would go into countries at random and wipe them out. And when we did we'd not bother to stay to help them rebuild. Etc...

The U.N. irrelevant? If so, it is because it has embraced irrelevance. It has embraced corruption. It has slipped over the edge to socialism, and is edging towards world fascism. Financially and in nearly every other way, the U.S. is still the primary support of the U.N. It would not exist without our help, and yet you support a claim that we view it as irrelevant? When that is truly the case, we will totally withdraw our presence and support.

I agree with Mr. Lewis' claim of how the world views us. But I would carefully examine why that is. Is it truly that we are deserving of it? Okay, there are the "ugly Americans" referred to in regard to tourism. But as a whole? The U.S. deserves that? The U.S. is becoming the ultimate, international scapegoat. Because too many of us are not willing to dig for the truth, not be blinded by conspiracy theories and will fail to figure this out in time, we will most likely pay a dear price for it.

[USMC the Almighty]

its typical of you to give the west a free pass

I didn't give the West a free pass, but I think that the lion's share of the blame resides with the very people who flew the planes into those buildings.


The problem with your viewpoint is that it is completely illogical. You put 1 quote from some nobody and you think that means that imperial events and human rights violations over the last century dont play a large part in molding the hate and angst that is tought THROUGH the Koran.

You really think foreign policy in the middle east and around the world has not had a major affect on the growth and ideaology of terrorism. i mean, i know that it doesn't fit into your perfect outlook on things, but you're a very smart man, how can you deny this?

Foreign policy is not static. It changes. We fought two wars against the British and now they are our closest ally.

For instance, you couldn't find a single Lebanese person in the 1950s with a bad thing to say about the U.S. Now, for some reason that they don't even know, they despise everything we stand for.

They attack because they are brainwashed from child birth and driven by religion. Not because of our relations with a shah over 50 years ago.



look at me i found a quote

"We don't really give a damn for what anybody thinks. We rub everyone's face in it. We're Americans and you're not. We're really talking the Roman Empire here. We'll do anything we want to do and anywhere we want to do it. You're either with us or against us. Multi-lateral institutions like the UN are incidental and irrelevant to the powers that be. This is the image we're sending to the world. That is what much of the world feels about this country this minute."

Charles Lewis, from the Center for Public Integrity in Washington DC, USA

What does this have to do with anything?

im looking forward to your comments on the other points.

"paid thugs" -- okay, sure some people consider Blackwater to be mercenaries, but this isn't a very convincing parallel between the Nazis and today's America.

"wiretapping" -- if the CIA wasn't tapping phone calls from numbers received in the seizure of Zawhiri's rolodex, it would be the height of irresponsibility. Give me the name of one American citizen who has been "harassed" by the NSA or CIA's wiretapping programs. In fact, the PATRIOT Act and NSA have collectively prevented attacks on the Brooklyn Bridge, Sears Tower, and Goldman Sachs building to name a few.

"targetting the opposition"/"control the press" -- you can't be serious. Last numbers I saw indicated that 90% of people working in the media (universities, Hollywood, network television) vote Democrat. In fact, more than 66% of the reports leading up to the 2006 elections were either unfavorable to the Republicans and 77% of the press was favorable to the Dems.

"Dissent equals treason" -- I don't know about you, but I see plenty of dissent to go around. Additionally, you must never confuse dissent with disloyalty.

"suspend the rule of law" -- like Adams, Lincoln, Grant, Wilson, FDR, and Clinton? Give me a break.

[n0spam4me]

Allow me to address just one of your points.
WIRETAPPING - its not so much that the Bush regime insists on doing it,
its that they don't want to be held accountable for it. Its all SECRET who they wiretap and why, even after the fact. Indeed WHO are they spying on and why? I don't know about everybody else here, but I really don't trust Mad King George! and Cheney makes Charlie Manson look like Mr. Rogers by contrast.
.

[Horizon]

i am almost sure that the 911 was not performed by muslim terrorists. because some of the 911 alleged suspects were alive after the 911 attacks, and that was proven right after the attacks, but the US government has silenced the rumors.

one of my favorite's on the subject: loose change

911truth.org

[9sublime]

They've hardly silenced the rumours, its just that they regularly get debunked by people with qualifications.

[n0spam4me]

We The People should be asking a LOT
of questions. the attack of 9/11/2001
is as yet an unsolved murder case.
3,000 counts of first degree murder, but who is the perpetrator?

I consider it VERY suspicious that Bush and Cheney refused to testify publicly.
They are prime suspects as to being at least accessories to the crime.

Maybe its all fofillment of prophecy and so there isn't a damn thing anybody can do about it, its just the desiny of the planet earth.

or?

Whats going on around here?





Lets bust the emperor for indecent exposure!
.

[foggedinn]

Yea right. It's all Bill Clinton's fault. Those things that aren't Bill Clinton's fault are Ted Kennedy's fault. blah, blah, blah.

[kathaksung]

In January 2001, Bush took the office in a controversial election. In three months, Silverstein bought the lease of WTC. The WTC changed hands on 7/24/2001. Six weeks later, WTC was bombed. A hot potato in real estate market was demolished. The cost was paid by Insurance company. Bush got what he wanted: an excuse to start Mid-east war.

Quote, "Who Destroyed The WTC?
By D. Cassidy
5/27/2008

A Memorial to the millions of innocents who died and will die as a result of September 11, 2001.

"Toda y, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence."
Henry Kissinger, 1991.

"I can think of no faster way to unite the American people behind George W. Bush than a terrorist attack on an American target overseas."
Henry Kissinger, 2000.

"September Eleven was good for Israel" (Benjamin Netanyahu)

Do the following quotes from news reports on the internet, limn a cabal so evil, so dreadful that--"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."-- J. Edgar Hoover. And it rules Washington absolutely!

The Principals

Lewis Eisenberg, vice president of AIPAC and former Goldman Sachs partner, was Chairman of the Port Authority ("PA"), the Lessor. Larry Silverstein, New York developer an d friend of Netanyahu (every Sunday Netanyahu would call Silverstein) led the Silverstein Group, the
Lessee. (Italics added.)

In April 2001 Silverstein was informed he had lost his bid in the privatization of the World Trade Center ("WTC"). Then events took a surprising turn. The winner dropped out, leaving Silverstein and his partners, who had finished second, as the new winner.

The Lease

The lease was purchased by the Silverstein Group for $3.2 billion on July 24, 2001. Sil verstein put up $125 million, only $14 million his own money. The net lease covers four buildings at the World Trade Center, including the Twin Towers and the retail Mall. It may have been one of the most elaborate deals in the leasing history of New York City.

The speed with which this painstakingly complex deal was closed is notable. "There are a million items that need to be dealt with", said Marc Schauer, of NAI Lawrence, a leasing firm. The entire negotiation period--from sta rt to finish--lasted only a few [3] months, a relatively swift duration in the world of colossal lease transactions especially with a governmental entity. [This frantic rush to close [for possession] by some deadline was the principal cause of th elitigation to follow. Why the rush?]

The Property

Chairman Eisenberg said, "The Port Authority and the region both benefit from this transaction." PA Executive Director Neil Levin said, "It was this excellent record of managing the comp lex that now
allows the Port Authority to realize the enhanced value of the complex." Silverstein said. "We will be in control of a prized asset and we will seek to develop its potential, raising it to new heights." [Was that, "raising" or "ra zing"?]

But from an economic standpoint, the trade center -- subsidized since its inception -- has never functioned, nor was it intended to function, unprotected in the real estate marketplace. It would cost $800 million just to upgrade the e lectrical, electronic, and cooling systems.

And it was well-known that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. Plans were made in 1989 to completely dismantle the WTC not only because of the asbestos problems but also the electrolytic corrosion pr oblems.Apparently, the plans were dropped because they were considered prohibitively expensive. The only reason the building was still standing on 9/11 was it was too costly to disassemble floor by floor.
There is a persistent report on the i nternet that either the state of New York or the EPA had ordered the dismantling of the WTC. And dismantling the WTC would not result in the recovery of insurance proceeds since it would not be a casualty.

Why would Silverstein, a knowledgeab le real estate developer, pay millions of dollars to get control of a building that was uneconomic, was an environmental basket case, and had serious corrosion problems? Many New York developers had gone bankrupt complying with mandated
renovations.

But all of Lucky Larry's problems disappeared on Sept. 11, 2001.
Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, based on two, in Silverstein's view, separate attacks. The total potential payout is $7.1 bn., more than enough to build a fabulous new complex and leave a hefty profit for the Silverstein Group, including Larry Silverstein himself. Lucky Larry would also miss his usual breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on the 107th flo or of the North Tower and survive that fateful day together with 3,999 of 4,000 Israelis who normally were in the WTC, a statistical anomaly of huge proportions).

The Insurance

......

Building No. 7

WTC 7 occupied a city block north of the WTC complex. Silverstein's estimated investment in WTC 7 was $386 million. FEMA concluded that the collapse of WTC 7 was a direct result of fires triggered by debris from the collapse of WTC Tower 1 which resulted in a payout of nearly $861 million or a profit of about $500 million to Silverstein.
Buildings a lot closer to the Twin Towers strangely remained upright.*

Silverstein stated in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided to demolish WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001. And the building quickly fell into its own basement. [How did the FDNY know that WTC 7 was prepared for demolition? Did Silverstein? This requires weeks of careful preparation by demolit ion experts.] Senator John Kerry stated that, WTC 7 was brought down as a result of a controlled demolition, directly contradicting FEMA. So WTC 7 was "pulled" by a controlled demolition, meaning that the FEMA version of what happened is false, casting serious doubt on the official story that terrorists of foreign origin destroyed the WTC as well as on the rest of the official account of 9/11 [and today disbelieved by most Americans and the rest of the world].

The OEM crisis cente r in WTC 7 has been identified on the internet as the control center for the pre-planned demolition of the WTC. The center and all of the evidence was destroyed when the 47-story tower was completely demolished. So, who decided to build the OEM crisis center in WTC 7? "Jerry Hauer recommended it as the prime site" Mr. Giuliani said. "It was largely on his recommendation that that site was selected."


The Attorneys

.........

Conclusio n

As anticipated by Kissinger, the destruction of the WTC and the loss
of thousands of lives resulted in the demolition of the American
Constitution; the American people did unite behind Bush and endors wars of aggression and genocide on the nations of the Middle East and the theft of their resources for the benefit of Israel. Now it comes out that the president actually practiced for 911 in advance and on that terrible day didn't know whether it was real or another practice session. And still noone in government or the 911 litigation even dares to suggest that the WTC was an "inside job" although the evidence is now almost overwhelming. Reportedly, even the National Institute for Standards and Technology has repudiated the "collapse initiation" theory of its 10,000 page report, "We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse." Well, nearly everybody else on the planet can.

There is no Statute of Limitations on murder. There should be an inquiry by an international body, such as the International Criminal Court, to assess responsibility for this monstrous crime against humanity; ironically like the Nuremberg Trials brought by the zionist cabal against German officials.

*In the history of the world, no high rise steel buildings have ever collapsed from fire except the three Silverstein buildings on 9-11-01. Structural steel is not affected by fire. For example in 1991 eight floors in the middle of the high rise Meri dian Building in Philadelphia burned for 20 hours. According to the official fire report, "Beams and girders sagged and twisted -- some as much as three feet --under severe fire exposures. Despite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage." And stood for many years later.

Despite zionist efforts to confuse the two, Zionism is not a religion but a political conspiracy, centuries old. Zionism is Jewish like Nazism was Lutheran. You can read all about it in the Protocols. Many years ago,

George Washington called them "our greatest enemy."

Benjamin Franklin said, "They are vampires. If they are not excluded from the United States...they will rule and destroy us."

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."
FDR letter to Colonel House, November 21st, 1933.

"We control America and th ey know it." Ariel Sharon

Welcome to the Goldene Medin, the New Khazar Empire (ceded by
Congress: 413-8)!

D. Cassidy
Memorial Day, 2008
http://boards.marihemp.com/boards/thd1x114890.shtml

[GenSeneca]

D. Cassidy
Memorial Day, 2008
http://boards.marihemp.com/boards/thd1x114890.shtml

From Marihemp, the Marijuana and Hemp Network... Building a more paranoid future, one user at a time.

[foggedinn]

Way back in the early 80's when I had the Wall Street Journal delivered, I read an article about Intel being given to the Reagan administration about Islamic terrorists planning an attack against American Skyscrapers using hijacked American airliners.

The administration reasoned that such an attack would kill the attackers and was therefore unlikely. They also reasoned correctly that such an attack could not be stopped without draconian security measures that would be unacceptable to the American public unless such an attack actually occurred.

We knew what to expect almost 20 years before it happened and were powerless to actually do anything about it.

[kathaksung]

WTC-7 mystery will soon be solved. Nearly 7 years later.

The final mystery of 9/11 will soon be solved, according to US experts investigating the collapse of the third tower at the World Trade Center.

The 47-storey third tower, known as Tower Seven, collapsed seven hours after the twin towers.

Investigators are expected to say ordinary fires on several different floors caused the collapse.

Conspiracy theorists have argued that the third tower was brought down in a controlled demolition.
Unlike the twin towers, Tower Seven was not hit by a plane.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology, based near Washington DC, is expected to conclude in its long-awaited report this month that ordinary fires caused the building to collapse.

That would make it the first and only steel skyscraper in the world to collapse because of fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm

Dissenter spoke out.

UL Executive Speaks Out on WTC Study
November 12 2004 - Articles

"The buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel." - Kevin Ryan

Friday, November 12, 2004
(911Truth.org news service -- updated 11/13, 11/14)

An executive at Underwriters Laboratories (UL), the company that certified the steel used in the construction of the World Trade Center, has questioned the common theory that fuel fires caused the Twin Towers to collapse.

In a letter dated Thursday (11/11, complete text below), UL executive Kevin Ryan called on Frank Gayle, director of the government team that has spent two years studying how the trade center was built and why it fell, to "do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel."

Kevin Ryan is Site Manager at Environmental Health Laboratories (EHL) in South Bend, Indiana. This is a division of UL, the product-compliance and testing giant. Because UL certified the WTC steel for its ability to withstand fires, the steel's performance on September 11 is obviously of concern to the company. While Ryan's letter does not constitute an official statement from Underwriters Laboratories, it suggests incipient disagreements between UL and NIST about the true cause of the WTC collapses.
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041112144051451

But he was fired ten days later. Very efficient compare for that later conclusion.

Kevin R. Ryan Terminated at Underwriters Laboratories

Area Man Stirs Debate on WTC Collapse:

South Bend firm's lab director fired after questioning federal probe
JOHN DOBBERSTEIN / South Bend Tribune 22nov04

SOUTH BEND - The laboratory director from a South Bend firm has been fired for attempting to cast doubt on the federal investigation into what caused the World Trade Center's twin towers to collapse on Sept. 11, 2001.

On Nov. 11, Ryan wrote a letter to the National Institute of Standards and Technology - the agency probing the collapse - challenging the common theory that burning jet fuel weakened the steel supports holding up the 110-story skyscrapers.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Kevin-R-Ryan22nov04.htm

[Federal Farmer]

WTC-7 mystery will soon be solved. Nearly 7 years later.

Typical CT'er BS. Building 7 was severely damaged by HUNDREDS OF TONS of FALLING DEBRIS from WTC 1, coupled with a FUEL FED FIRE that further weakened the transfer trusses, and THAT is what led to it's collapse.

It wasn't just fire, it was SEVERE structural damage COUPLED with fires.

BTW, I already covered this in my OTHER (http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50468&postcount=11) post on the subject.

[kathaksung]

Typical CT'er BS. Building 7 was severely damaged by HUNDREDS OF TONS of FALLING DEBRIS from WTC 1, coupled with a FUEL FED FIRE that further weakened the transfer trusses, and THAT is what led to it's collapse.

It wasn't just fire, it was SEVERE structural damage COUPLED with fires.

BTW, I already covered this in my OTHER (http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50468&postcount=11) post on the subject.

There is another building located between WTC1 and WTC7, it should had born more debris then WTC 7 had. Nobody uses that theory to defend, you invent it. Must have done a lot of work to find this?

-----------------------

Ventura’s 9/11 Questions Break Through Mainstream Media Dam

Category: FOX <http://waronyou.com/topics/media-coverage/fox/>,

Jesse ‘The Mind’ Defends Questions About Towers’ Telling Collapse on Hannity & Colmes and National Talk Radio Programs: “How can two planes bring down three buildings?”

Former Governor Jesse Ventura broke through enemy lines yesterday, exposing major inconsistencies with the official 9/11 story and holding his own against some of mainstream media’s most disingenuous hosts, including Fox News’ Sean Hannity and Opie & Anthony from XM Satellite radio.

http://waronyou.com/2008/04/ventura%e2%80%99s-911-questions-break-through-mainstream-media-dam/

[Federal Farmer]

There is another building located between WTC1 and WTC7, it should had born more debris then WTC 7 had. Nobody uses that theory to defend, you invent it. Must have done a lot of work to find this?

It's obvious that you've done NO work to find anything.

As this diagram clearly shows, WTC 6 was between WTC 1 and WTC 7.
http://sqlblue2.cul.columbia.edu/jim/The%20World%20Trade%20Center%20Map_files/wtc_nytimes.gif

This image is of WTC 6 on 9-11. WTC was an 8 story building, and debris falling from WTC 1 completely gutted it from the roof, all the way to the ground floor.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/docs/gz_aerial_wtc6.jpg

This is another picture of WTC 6 taken on 9-11. The extent of the damage is easily seen here.

http://prisonplanet.com/images/august2006/230806building6.jpg


Now, you were saying......WHAT?

Oh, BTW, thanks for sending the picture of yourself, it's just what I expected.
http://pics.evyl.org/tin_foil_hat_8.jpg
-----------------------

Ventura’s 9/11 Questions Break Through Mainstream Media Dam

Jesse is pandering to the press. As a former UDT/SEAL, he knows quite well that there's no way for explosives to have been used to bring down any of the buildings on 9-11. The fact that he's even thought about taking up the CT banner has caused me to lose any vestiges of respect I ever had for the man.

[pocketfullofshells]

Typical CT'er BS. Building 7 was severely damaged by HUNDREDS OF TONS of FALLING DEBRIS from WTC 1, coupled with a FUEL FED FIRE that further weakened the transfer trusses, and THAT is what led to it's collapse.

It wasn't just fire, it was SEVERE structural damage COUPLED with fires.

BTW, I already covered this in my OTHER (http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50468&postcount=11) post on the subject.

I guess someone never read the countless times I explained Building 7...

you forgot to bring up the Generators and large fuel tanks near them to run them that.

sad when there is that big of a fire and collapse...and people are boggled by the fact something else started on fire next to it....

sad how little facts these people and there ideas have.

[Federal Farmer]

I guess someone never read the countless times I explained Building 7...

Obviously.

you forgot to bring up the Generators and large fuel tanks near them to run them that.

I didn't forget it, I just failed to get into all the details of it in that post, but I did specifically mention "FUEL FED FIRE". I believe I went into great detail in an earlier post explaining that very fact, including how the fire weakened the transfer trusses on Building 7.

EDIT: BINGO, I knew I had. I commented on it in THIS (http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42513&postcount=35) post.

sad how little facts these people and there ideas have.

It's the "blind men and the elephant" story all over again.

[n0spam4me]

The damage to WTC7 would have to be by the very nature of the event,
CHAOTIC, now how do we get from CHAOTIC damage to such a neat and clean straight down "collapse" as seen on the Video?

I'm not buying it!

The very people with a vested intrest in covering up what really happened, also just happen to be the people in a position to cover-up what really happened!

and as we all know
the emperor is NAKED!

[GenSeneca]

The damage to WTC7 would have to be by the very nature of the event,
CHAOTIC, now how do we get from CHAOTIC damage to such a neat and clean straight down "collapse" as seen on the Video?

I'm not buying it!

The very people with a vested intrest in covering up what really happened, also just happen to be the people in a position to cover-up what really happened!

and as we all know
the emperor is NAKED!

Do you actually care?

If so, why haven't you found the answers when its so easy for others?

I once had the same kind of questions, that I got from the same people who's bilge you're now regurgitating, and I went looking for answers. I found them... They're pretty easy to find for anyone actually interested in getting questions answered and not just an excuse to ask more questions.

For anyone that really cares and wants answers, not just more questions, THIS (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home) is a good place to start.

[kathaksung]

Several 9/11 hijackers seen in OKC prior to attacks
Red Dirt Report, editor
Posted: July 19, 2008

Discussed was explosive information regarding the fact that several witnesses in Oklahoma City have confirmed with eyewitness reports and credit card receipts (from expired government-issued credit cards) that five of the 19 9/11 hijackers were in Oklahoma City.........

That Mohammad Atta and four of his cohorts were sighted in Oklahoma City on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday before 9/11/01........

During this report, your Red Dirt Reporter addressed information compiled by Norman-based researcher Michael P. Wright who has uncovered information on Nick Berg, Zacarias Moussaoui and later, white suicide bomber Joel Hinrichs, among others. Wright discovered in a 2000 University of Oklahoma student directory that a man with an identical name as a 9/11 hijacker attended the school and the following year a man with a nearly identical name had a school email of abuali911@ou.edu..........

http://www.reddirtreport.com/news.php?c=5

Consider:

1. OKC bombing is created as the first attempt to expand the police power of FBI -- FBI director Louis Freeh submitted a proposal similar to Patriot Act after OKC bombing but failed to pass in congress.

2. WTC was pulled down by explosives not fire. The second attempt to expand Feds' police power and this time they succeeded.

3. Moussaoui was the only one said belong to the 911 terrorist group survived. A convenient witness for a false flag attack.

4. Nick Berg's "beheading" case was used to distract the Abu Ghraibu prison scandal and used to tarnish Muslim.

All have a purpose for the cover up of wrong doing of government. Those people, Atta, Moussaoui, Nick Berg.... most likely work for the Feds as moles. Birds of a feather flock together. It's no strange they were all present in OKC. It seems that there was a Feds train camp there. Or they were sent there to cover up the OKC bombing truth.

[n0spam4me]

The whole scene is one big smoking gun.
From the Commander in Chief sitting in a photo-op after being informed that
"AMERICA is under attack" to his refusal to give public testimony before the 9/11 commission {total white wash job!}. The whole scene just screams CRIMINAL FRAUD!

America has seen an unprecedented power grab by the executive branch and a LOT of un-prosecuted WAR PROFITEERING!

AMERICA is getting SCREWED and people still debate the FALSE FLAG ATTACK of 9/11/2001.

There is a huge stinking elephant in the middle of the living room and what are we going to do about it!?!?!?!?!?!

[BigRob]

The whole scene is one big smoking gun.
From the Commander in Chief sitting in a photo-op after being informed that
"AMERICA is under attack" to his refusal to give public testimony before the 9/11 commission {total white wash job!}. The whole scene just screams CRIMINAL FRAUD!

America has seen an unprecedented power grab by the executive branch and a LOT of un-prosecuted WAR PROFITEERING!

AMERICA is getting SCREWED and people still debate the FALSE FLAG ATTACK of 9/11/2001.

There is a huge stinking elephant in the middle of the living room and what are we going to do about it!?!?!?!?!?!

Unless Bush is planning to be President for life, will you explain why he would want to enact this huge "power grab" only to give it away after 8 years?

Seems most people who do this kind of thing then put themselves in as dictator for life.

[n0spam4me]

"Seems most people who do this kind of thing then put themselves in as dictator for life."

Or how about their cronies, fellow skull&bones members.
or for that matter, did you know that the groundwork has already been laid in the form of executive orders that enable Bush to declare Martial law and take control of ALL of the media, transportation, (etc...) of the U.S.A. and parts of said executive order are classified.

so much for Congressional oversight.

BTW: on the subject of 9/11 ... I keep getting links thrown my way as if to say,
"my experts are better than your experts" HOWEVER, just straight from the gut,
WHAT do YOU think of the events of 9/11/2001? doesn't anything about that day strike you as just a bit suspicious?

Personally I think its VERY suspicious that a total of 4 hijackings went off like clockwork and even to the extent of hijackers getting to replace the pilot and fly the aircraft.
They hit 75% of their targets and managed to evade the defenses of the Worlds Greatest Military Power and strike the HQ of said military power.
If you where watching a TV "drama" and it unfolded like the "official" explanation of what happened that day, people would be asking "who writes this crap ?! ...."

The "official" 9/11 report is nothing but a white wash job, a cover-up and its really sad that the AMERICAN public has been taken in by the BIG LIE!

FALSE FLAG OPERATION! if it walks like a duck .... etc ....

[GenSeneca]

Personally I think its VERY suspicious that a total of 4 hijackings went off like clockwork and even to the extent of hijackers getting to replace the pilot and fly the aircraft.

Of course... There's no possible way Terrorists could hijack an aircraft - its never happened before in the history of flight - and then the ones trained to fly could replace the pilots they killed... We all know Terrorists don't have watches and cannot tell time so the idea they could coordinate their efforts is totally ridiculous...

The only thing more absurd than the "official" accounts, are anything you CT's are pushing.

Get your 9/11 questions answered here. (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home)

[n0spam4me]

The emperor is NAKED!

[vyo476]

"Seems most people who do this kind of thing then put themselves in as dictator for life."

Or how about their cronies, fellow skull&bones members.

Looks like Skull and Bones hasn't needed much help from such machinations to get their people into positions of power in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Skull_and_Bones_members

Just stroll through that list for a moment. You'll find Cabinet members, Supreme Court justices, Governors, and (obviously) Presidents of the country.

or for that matter, did you know that the groundwork has already been laid in the form of executive orders that enable Bush to declare Martial law and take control of ALL of the media, transportation, (etc...) of the U.S.A. and parts of said executive order are classified.

Care to provide a link backing this up?

BTW: on the subject of 9/11 ... I keep getting links thrown my way as if to say,
"my experts are better than your experts" HOWEVER, just straight from the gut,
WHAT do YOU think of the events of 9/11/2001? doesn't anything about that day strike you as just a bit suspicious?

This is the problem with the conspiracy theory crowd. For them, it's about forming an opinion and then looking for evidence to back it up; for the more scientific crowd, it's about examining the evidence and coming to a conclusion.

And anyway, you want my "from the gut" feeling on 9/11? I think it's a helluva lot more likely that America became complacent in all the wrong ways leading up to 9/11, much in the way major empires like Rome and Britain did in their twilight years, than it is likely that a President that has consistently demonstrated a disregard for history (gee, let's send an army primarily consisting of white English-speaking Christian Westerners to a place that's still bitter over the Crusades and Britain's treacherous violation of the Hussein-McMahon agreement in World War I) was actually able to protect us from the historical shortsightedness of a slightly aged, complacent empire while perpetrating his own major fraud on a scale heretofore unseen in world history. After all, if it was indeed George Bush who was behind 9/11 (and there were no hijackers and all that trite), then it was not a group of militant Islamic terrorists, and America was at the time relatively safe from outside forces.

Personally I think its VERY suspicious that a total of 4 hijackings went off like clockwork and even to the extent of hijackers getting to replace the pilot and fly the aircraft.
They hit 75% of their targets and managed to evade the defenses of the Worlds Greatest Military Power and strike the HQ of said military power.

These hijackers had the single greatest ally there is: simplicity. The more complex the plan, the more chances it has to fail; therefore, a simple plan is easier to carry out. And they had a simple plan, that just happened to exploit a number of well-thought-out weaknesses in our security, including:

1. Lax airport security checks

2. Lax security on planes themselves

3. A lack of active defense of buildings in the capital against civilian aircraft being used as suicide dive-bombers without prior warning of hijacking threats

Without those three weaknesses, 9/11 would not have been possible. While the first two have been addressed since 9/11, I doubt the last has been; after all, it would have been mere seconds between when the plane showed up on Washington's monitoring stations and when they realized there was a problem with it, and mere seconds again between realizing it wasn't where it was supposed to be and realizing it was a threat. By then it would have been too late to do anything about it.

How did Islamic terrorists attack our capital undefended? They figured out how, that's all. They didn't muscle in; they were clever and they were lucky.

That's just "from the gut."

If you where watching a TV "drama" and it unfolded like the "official" explanation of what happened that day, people would be asking "who writes this crap ?! ...."

I major in creative writing. One of the first things they taught us was that fiction must be believable; reality knows no such bounds.

[BigRob]

"Seems most people who do this kind of thing then put themselves in as dictator for life."

Or how about their cronies, fellow skull&bones members.
or for that matter, did you know that the groundwork has already been laid in the form of executive orders that enable Bush to declare Martial law and take control of ALL of the media, transportation, (etc...) of the U.S.A. and parts of said executive order are classified.


So in January when Bush peacefully hands over power to a non-skull and bones member will you be here to say you were wrong?

[n0spam4me]

Both McCain and Obama are members of CFR and I really don't know about the
Skull&Bones membership, but McCain most probably is a member.

All of these clowns work for GREED INC. and NOT the AMERICAN Voters!

I don't care if its McCain or Obama this time, in any case, AMERICA is going to hell in a handbasket!

[BigRob]

Both McCain and Obama are members of CFR and I really don't know about the
Skull&Bones membership, but McCain most probably is a member.

All of these clowns work for GREED INC. and NOT the AMERICAN Voters!

I don't care if its McCain or Obama this time, in any case, AMERICA is going to hell in a handbasket!

So now its a conspiracy between members of the council on foreign relations? And for the record, neither McCain or Obama is a member of Skull and Bones. So I ask again, will you be here in January after Bush peacefully hands over power to admit you were wrong?

[n0spam4me]

Shall we arrest the emperor
for indecent exposure?

its
dim
jed
..............

[Federal Farmer]

That Mohammad Atta and four of his cohorts were sighted in Oklahoma City on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday before 9/11/01........

Pure unadulterated Bullhockey! The whereabouts of Mohammad atta on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, September 7, 8, and 9, 2001 are well known, and he was nowhere near OKC. On Sept. 7, 2001 Atta caught a flight from Ft. Lauderdale to Baltimore Md. on US Air flight 2719. On the 8th, he booked a flight from Baltimore to Boston for the following day on US Air flt 2979. On the 9th, he caught his US Air flight to Boston, rented a Nissan Altima from Alamo car rentals at the BWI, withdrew $500 from an ATM in Terminal C at Logan shortly after 10 PM, left the airport, and according to cell phone records, place a call to his father while driving to Portland Maine. On the 10th, he checked into the Comfort Inn in Portland Maine, and later were caught on film at a Fast Green ATM, as well as at a Jet Port Gas Station, and a Wal Mart, all in Portland Maine. On the morning of the 11th, he checked out of the Comfort Inn at 5:33 AM, drove to the Portland airport, checked in at US Air at 5:45 and arrived back in Boston at 6:45 AM.

All of this information, including receipts and photographs of Atta are all included in the 9-11 Commission Report. It's just too bad that CT'ers never bother to check sources before inventing this garbage out of whole cloth.

Consider:

1. OKC bombing is created as the first attempt to expand the police power of FBI -- FBI director Louis Freeh submitted a proposal similar to Patriot Act after OKC bombing but failed to pass in congress.

Nope, that would be the Branch Davidian Compound in Waco Texas.

2. WTC was pulled down by explosives not fire. The second attempt to expand Feds' police power and this time they succeeded.

WTC7 collapsed due to severe weakening of it's critical load bearing trusses and columns as a result of catastrophic damage from falling debris, and a fuel fed fire in the generator room on the 5th floor.

3. Moussaoui was the only one said belong to the 911 terrorist group survived. A convenient witness for a false flag attack.

Yeah, right. We caught Moussaoui on Aug. 16 illegally trying to enter the US, almost a full month before 9-11.

4. Nick Berg's "beheading" case was used to distract the Abu Ghraibu prison scandal and used to tarnish Muslim.

Do you even think before you write this type of garbage? Is it your contention that we somehow arranged for terrorists to behead Nick Berg, on tape, so that we could use it to distract from Abu Grabass? That's RICH!:rolleyes:

All have a purpose for the cover up of wrong doing of government. Those people, Atta, Moussaoui, Nick Berg.... most likely work for the Feds as moles. Birds of a feather flock together. It's no strange they were all present in OKC. It seems that there was a Feds train camp there. Or they were sent there to cover up the OKC bombing truth.

They weren't in OKC, EVER, much less right before 9-11. It's time you pulled your head out of your fourth point of contact and got some fresh air, you're obviously suffering from severe hypoxia.

[Federal Farmer]

So in January when Bush peacefully hands over power to a non-skull and bones member will you be here to say you were wrong?

Of course they will, and they'll claim it's all a smoke screen to cover up "the truth", to give them time to develop even more dastardly schemes to get us fully under the control of the Illuminati...or is it the Bilderburgers...or is it the CFR.....or maybe they'll just call it the "new world order" since they're not even sure what's what.

[n0spam4me]

What we have here is an intentionally complex issue, made so by the brilliant criminal minds who planned the 9/11/2001 FALSE FLAG OPERATION.

There are a LOT of smoking guns, and the fact that there are so many of them points to the fact that there where NOT 19 suicidal Arabs who hijacked 4 commerical airliners and crashed 3 of them into buildings, there is something else going on here, and because the Bush Crime Family is very close with the owners of what had been the 4th estate but is now a WMD
that is WEAPON of MASS DECEPTION, we have some serious problems sorting out what is or is NOT fact, HOWEVER
just taking what we know about the alleged events of 9/11/2001 ......
The improbable hijacking of 4 airliners, and not only hijacking, but getting the hijacker into the PILOT'S seat. (and X4 ... )
Not to mention the hijackings happen on a day when apparently Air Traffic Control is having problems and they LOOSE an airliner (also X4 ...)

When you really look at the big picture, the story is KRAZIE!
have you read the "official" 9/11 report?
do you believe it?

Please also read "The Emperor's New Clothes" and know this
the emperor is NAKED!

[GenSeneca]

have you read the "official" 9/11 report?


I can tell you haven't. You might have read some carefully extracted quotes woven together with conjecture, fallacies and flat out lies, but you haven't read the whole thing front to back - including the footnotes.

www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf)

Read the entire 584 pages. Then give me the specific page numbers and paragraphs you find "KRAZIE".

[n0spam4me]

May I point out just one of the serious problems with this "book"
in ANY non-fiction work that undergoes revisions, the revision history is included in the book, where in this now 584 pages of lies and fraud does it admit to having been revised?

Also, if I quote anything from this 'document'
you can accuse me of pulling stuff out of context and therefore nullify the argument.

The fact is that the so-called document doesn't do anything except to function as a white-wash job.

Beware
the Military Industrial Complex ....
AMERICA had been warned, did it do any good?

Wake UP AMERICA
smell the burnt Reichstag!

[n0spam4me]

And another thing!

"Bush hands over power"

NOT!

Governments govern by the consent of those governed.

The POWER rests with WE THE PEOPLE!

Bush doesn't have anything to hand over.

He will be replaced by yet another employee of WE THE PEOPLE
and my question is WILL ANYBODY BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE?

"you see, when the PRESIDENT does it, its not illegal"
Richard Nixon

WE THE PEOPLE must demand accountability before its too late!

WAKE UP AMERICA!

[kathaksung]

Since WTC was a hot potato in real estate market, (the insulator of the building was asbestoes that was poisonous to health) and the property belongs to New York Harbor authority. The government insider planned to pull it down for a long time. The trick was let it collapse in a terror attack, then let Insurance company pay the cost. That's why we saw there were two bombings. One was in 1993. The next time was on 911, 2001. All in the name of Islamic extremist.

The first WTC bombing was proved done under FBI's guidence. At that time, "Al Qaida" hadn't been invented. The name then was Islam extremist.

Quote, "Who Bombed The World Trade Center? FBI Bomb Builders Exposed!!

From the 'Lectric Law Library's stacks
Combined report by Paul DeRienzo, Frank Morales and Chris Flash
From newspaper _The_Shadow_ Oct. 1994/Jan. 1995 Issue

Two cassette tape recordings, obtained by SHADOW reporter Paul DiRienzo of telephone conversations between FBI informant Emad Salem and his Bureau contacts reveal secret U.S. Government complicity in the February 26, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City in which six people were killed and more than a thousand were injured.
After careful deliberation, the SHADOW believes the question regarding the bombing boils down to the following: Did the FBI do the bombing, utilizing informant Salem as an "agent provocateur" or did it fail to prevent an independent Salem and his associates from doing it? The taped conversations obtained by the SHADOW seem to indicate the former:
FBI Informant Edam Salem: "...we was start already building the bomb which is went off in the World Trade Center. It was built by supervising supervision from the Bureau and the DA and we was all informed about it and we know that the bomb start to be built. By who? By your confidential informant. What a wonderful great case!"

Who is Emad Salem? FBI bomber, Arab double-agent or just greedy? Possibly a combination of all three. Salem is a former Egyptian Army officer who is currently the U.S. government's star witness against Egyptian cleric Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman, whom the FBI says was the ringleader in several bombing plots, including the World Trade Center. Shortly after the bombing at the Twin Towers (World Trade Center) the U.S. government moved to take Salem into the Witness Protection program.

According to the FBI, Salem was aware of the plot ostensibly because he had infiltrated Sheik Rahman and his associates. He was recruited as a government informant shortly after the 1991 assassination of of right- wing militant Rabbi Meir Kahane. As an associate of Rahman, Salem traveled in the cleric's inner circle, surreptitiously recording conversations, and selling his information to the Bureau. But unknown to his FBI handlers, Salem was also secretly recording his conversations with them, most likely to protect himself.

According to attorney Ron Kuby, after Salem was taken into the Witness Protection program on June 24, 1993, he told the feds about the more than 1,000 conversations he had recorded sometime between December, 1991 and June, 1993. Kuby says that while some of these tapes are not significant, others contain substantive dealings with Salem and his FBI handlers. Salem was actually bugging the FBI.

The World Trade Center bombing, along with subsequent alleged plots to bomb prominent targets in New York City, spawned a number of federal indictments and trials resulting in the conviction of more than a dozen men, all of Arabic descent. Salem's exposure as a government informant who had a year earlier infiltrated the group of men later charged in the bombing conspiracy caused many to wonder why he and the FBI failed to provide any warning of the pending World Trade Center bombing.

The answer now appears self-evident. According to William Kuntsler, attorney for Ibrahim El-Gabrowny, one of those accused in the larger bombing case, the entire conspiracy was the product of Salem, the government informant. Kuntsler's law partner Ronald Kuby told the