Dragonfly or Insect Spy?

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Dragonfly or Insect Spy? Scientists at Work on Robobugs.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/08/AR2007100801434.html?nav=hcmodule


By Rick WeissWashington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 9, 2007; Page A03

Vanessa Alarcon saw them while working at an antiwar rally in Lafayette Square last month.

"I heard someone say, 'Oh my god, look at those,' " the college senior from New York recalled. "I look up and I'm like, 'What the hell is that?' They looked kind of like dragonflies or little helicopters. But I mean, those are not insects."

Gallery
DragonSpies
Robotic fliers have been used by the military since World War II, but in the past decade their numbers and level of sophistication have increased enormously.
Play Video VIDEOS</SPAN> | 'The Dragonfly'java script:void(0);java script:void(0);


Out in the crowd, Bernard Crane saw them, too.

"I'd never seen anything like it in my life," the Washington lawyer said. "They were large for dragonflies. I thought, 'Is that mechanical, or is that alive?' "

That is just one of the questions hovering over a handful of similar sightings at political events in Washington and New York. Some suspect the insectlike drones are high-tech surveillance tools, perhaps deployed by the Department of Homeland Security.

Others think they are, well, dragonflies -- an ancient order of insects that even biologists concede look about as robotic as a living creature can look.

No agency admits to having deployed insect-size spy drones. But a number of U.S. government and private entities acknowledge they are trying. Some federally funded teams are even growing live insects with computer chips in them, with the goal of mounting spyware on their bodies and controlling their flight muscles remotely.

The robobugs could follow suspects, guide missiles to targets or navigate the crannies of collapsed buildings to find survivors.

The technical challenges of creating robotic insects are daunting, and most experts doubt that fully working models exist yet.

"If you find something, let me know," said Gary Anderson of the Defense Department's Rapid Reaction Technology Office.

But the CIA secretly developed a simple dragonfly snooper as long ago as the 1970s. And given recent advances, even skeptics say there is always a chance that some agency has quietly managed to make something operational.

"America can be pretty sneaky," said Tom Ehrhard, a retired Air Force colonel and expert in unmanned aerial vehicles who is now at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a nonprofit Washington-based research institute.

[USMC the Almighty]

KOF, maybe if you didn't choose the most boring topics on the net people would actually debate in your threads.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

KOF, maybe if you didn't choose the most boring topics on the net people would actually debate in your threads.

Interesting that you find spy bugs boring.

[9sublime]

Also the rule here is to comment on any copy and pasted news article, or it counts as spam.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Also the rule here is to comment on any copy and pasted news article, or it counts as spam.

Okay, here is my comment ..........READ THIS and LEARN.. NOW!!!

[USMC the Almighty]

Okay, here is my comment ..........READ THIS and LEARN.. NOW!!!

At least pretend to be mildly intelligent.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

At least pretend to be mildly intelligent.

Off Topic.

[USMC the Almighty]

Don't push it tonight, KOF.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Don't push it tonight, KOF.

I could say the very same thing to you. You don't like much of what I post, so why do you bother reading my posts?

[Bunz]

Ok great, an interesting piece of technology. What is there to discuss? KOF, you have posted this into conspiracies, well what is the story? Did one of these sting Kennedy from the grassy knowl, then escape to the moon, only to return in the flight controls of United 11 to crash into the WTC? And now is leaving vapor trails of of depleted uranium in our flouride laced drinking water?

[USMC the Almighty]

The conspiracy theory is that the government is hiding cameras in dragonflies to spy on American citizens (i.e. taking away our freedoms).

[Bunz]

USMC, I know as much, Id just like to hear his thoughts, KOF as he posted it, but didnt bother to elaborate on it at all.

[USMC the Almighty]

USMC, I know as much, Id just like to hear his thoughts, KOF as he posted it, but didnt bother to elaborate on it at all.

I understand and agree. Next time and posts a copyrighted article without any original commentary, I am going to delete the thread.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Ok great, an interesting piece of technology. What is there to discuss? KOF, you have posted this into conspiracies, well what is the story? Did one of these sting Kennedy from the grassy knowl, then escape to the moon, only to return in the flight controls of United 11 to crash into the WTC? And now is leaving vapor trails of of depleted uranium in our flouride laced drinking water?

I didn't post it in conspiracies. This is a news item not a conspiracy.
You'll have to talk to the guy who moved the post.

You do have a vivid imagination. Keep posting your theories.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

I understand and agree. Next time and posts a copyrighted article without any original commentary, I am going to delete the thread.

What are you afraid of? I guess there is no free speach here. You want everyone to be little sheep. You do know Power Corrupts don't you???

[KeepOurFreedoms]

The conspiracy theory is that the government is hiding cameras in dragonflies to spy on American citizens (i.e. taking away our freedoms).

So you now consider the Washington Post a conspiracy site??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hcmodule

[Bunz]

KOF, instead of just continually posting article after article, give us some insight on your views of the importance of this. Otherwise I have much more important things to simply read for non-discussion purposes.

[9sublime]

What are you afraid of? I guess there is no free speach here. You want everyone to be little sheep. You do know Power Corrupts don't you???

Haha, are you related to Roker? We move your thread, not delete it, and REQUEST THAT YOU EXCERICSE YOUR FREE SPEECH BY TELLING US WHAT YOU THINK OF THE ARTICLE!

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Haha, are you related to Roker? We move your thread, not delete it, and REQUEST THAT YOU EXCERICSE YOUR FREE SPEECH BY TELLING US WHAT YOU THINK OF THE ARTICLE!

No, I'm not related to Roker.

Why should you move a news article just because you don't like it? I have no problem telling you what I think. I do what I want, when I want. If you don't like what I post here, either don't read it or have the owners of this board ask me to stop posting.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

KOF, instead of just continually posting article after article, give us some insight on your views of the importance of this. Otherwise I have much more important things to simply read for non-discussion purposes.


If I posted it, I think it is something you need to know or think about.

[9sublime]

What are you afraid of? I guess there is no free speach here. You want everyone to be little sheep. You do know Power Corrupts don't you???

We moved your post because it is a conspiracy. We never deleted or otherwise modified your post. You claim we are restricting your freedom of speech, yet we are asking you to comment on your copy and pasted newsartices, not keep quiet.

[r0beph]

The article itself has nothing of value, they say "they're bigger than dragonflies" yet obviously the misleading picture is far from even 1/2 as large as a dragonfly. The amount of "spyware" that could be mounted on a vehicle of that size is rather...well, minute. I don't know of any current video / audio technology that would be useful on such a size, it'd require a transceiver, antenna , and a power source to get the signal beyond a few feet as well as power the vehicle. It simply DOES NOT EXIST, end of story. I can safely say this is pure scrot. Micronization of that caliber does not exist.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

The article itself has nothing of value, they say "they're bigger than dragonflies" yet obviously the misleading picture is far from even 1/2 as large as a dragonfly. The amount of "spyware" that could be mounted on a vehicle of that size is rather...well, minute. I don't know of any current video / audio technology that would be useful on such a size, it'd require a transceiver, antenna , and a power source to get the signal beyond a few feet as well as power the vehicle. It simply DOES NOT EXIST, end of story. I can safely say this is pure scrot. Micronization of that caliber does not exist.

Whatever "scrot" is!!!

I sure hope you aren't claiming to know everything. "They" keep things hidden for years before it become public knowledge. Or...didn't YOU know that?

[KeepOurFreedoms]

We moved your post because it is a conspiracy. We never deleted or otherwise modified your post. You claim we are restricting your freedom of speech, yet we are asking you to comment on your copy and pasted newsartices, not keep quiet.

So you are saying all news sources are conspiracies. Thanks for letting me know.

[9sublime]

So you are saying all news sources are conspiracies. Thanks for letting me know.

Haha your making a fool of yourself now.

You know just as well as I do what a conspiracy is, and you know just as well as everyone else on this board that this fits right into that category.

You might as well step down now and at least make yourself appear to have an understanding of the definition of the words you are trying to debate.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Haha your making a fool of yourself now.

You know just as well as I do what a conspiracy is, and you know just as well as everyone else on this board that this fits right into that category.

You might as well step down now and at least make yourself appear to have an understanding of the definition of the words you are trying to debate.

You are the one saying the Washington Post has conspiracies on their web site. I would guess that you would consider the Washington Post main stream media.

Step down? From what? Get a grip kiddo.

[9sublime]

You are the one saying the Washington Post has conspiracies on their web site. I would guess that you would consider the Washington Post main stream media.

Step down? From what? Get a grip kiddo.

Just because something is coming from a certain source, doesn't mean it only writes about certain things. The Washington Post isn't restricted from writing conspiracy articles, and would have no reason not to.

[vyo476]

I sure hope you aren't claiming to know everything. "They" keep things hidden for years before it become public knowledge. Or...didn't YOU know that?

Here's where the conspiracy aspect of the thread comes in.

[ArmChair General]

Also the rule here is to comment on any copy and pasted news article, or it counts as spam.

thats a stupid rule.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Here's where the conspiracy aspect of the thread comes in.

How is that? Are you saying that the government doesn't keep things hidding from US Citizens?

[USMC the Almighty]

thats a stupid rule.

No it's not.

[ArmChair General]

No it's not.

yes it is.

[vyo476]

How is that? Are you saying that the government doesn't keep things hidding from US Citizens?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if they are, it's a conspiracy.

How would you define "conspiracy"?

[KeepOurFreedoms]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if they are, it's a conspiracy.

How would you define "conspiracy"?

Two or more people planning something.

[9sublime]

Thus, by your definition, the government planning to use build and make these little flying bug things without informing the general public of their true potential is a conspiracy.

I know governments hide stuff from the people, however, theories on what they are hiding are still conspiracy theories.

[vyo476]

Two or more people planning something.

So when a committee gets together in town to discuss snow removal, they're conspiring to remove the snow?

What you put there is, indeed, part of the definition. However, another component of the definition, which is necessary to understand the board's context, is that this "planning" is for malevolent purposes and is done in secret.

If "they" are hiding things from us, then by definition they are keeping secrets. And I highly doubt that you are of the opinion that the government does this for our own good, so their reasons must be malevolent.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

So when a committee gets together in town to discuss snow removal, they're conspiring to remove the snow?

What you put there is, indeed, part of the definition. However, another component of the definition, which is necessary to understand the board's context, is that this "planning" is for malevolent purposes and is done in secret.

If "they" are hiding things from us, then by definition they are keeping secrets. And I highly doubt that you are of the opinion that the government does this for our own good, so their reasons must be malevolent.

From www.dictionary.com

con·spire (kən-spīr') Pronunciation Key
v. con·spired, con·spir·ing, con·spires

v. intr.

To plan together secretly to commit an illegal or wrongful act or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
To join or act together; combine: "Semisweet chocolate, cocoa powder, espresso, Cognac, and vanilla all conspire to intensify [the cake's] flavor" (Sally Schneider).

[9sublime]

From www.dictionary.com

con·spire (kən-spīr') Pronunciation Key
v. con·spired, con·spir·ing, con·spires

v. intr.

To plan together secretly to commit an illegal or wrongful act or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
To join or act together; combine: "Semisweet chocolate, cocoa powder, espresso, Cognac, and vanilla all conspire to intensify [the cake's] flavor" (Sally Schneider).

Thus, the government conspiring to use these little bugs in consitution vioilating ways, without informing the people, is in its (unfounded) entirety, a conspiracy theory.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Thus, the government conspiring to use these little bugs in consitution vioilating ways, without informing the people, is in its (unfounded) entirety, a conspiracy theory.

So everything the government does is a conspiracy?

[vyo476]

So everything the government does is a conspiracy?

Nice spin. You don't read our posts so much as dig for things to misinterpret, do you?

Would you care to explain how you can take "government using spybugs in unconstitutional and secretive ways is a conspiracy theory" and get "everything the government does is a conspiracy"?

[USMC the Almighty]

I love how every one of KOF's threads turns into the same thing. I think he deliberately posts conspiracy theories outside of the conspiracy theory forum just so he can raise a big fuss.

[9sublime]

So everything the government does is a conspiracy?

Haha, are you a professional moron or just a gifted amatuer?

You have a theory that the government has a conspiracy against the people of your country by using cameras disgused as bugs. This is a conspiracy theory.

The fact that the government is going to build a new road tomorrow and the local council had a meeting about it is not a conspiracy theory.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Nice spin. You don't read our posts so much as dig for things to misinterpret, do you?

Would you care to explain how you can take "government using spybugs in unconstitutional and secretive ways is a conspiracy theory" and get "everything the government does is a conspiracy"?


I guess you missed the question mark at the end of the question.

Back to the topic.

"No agency admits to having deployed insect-size spy drones. But a number of U.S. government and private entities acknowledge they are trying. Some federally funded teams are even growing live insects with computer chips in them, with the goal of mounting spyware on their bodies and controlling their flight muscles remotely."

The government is here to serve us, not spy on us.

[9sublime]

No KOF, I think you've resigned yourself to defeat. My work here is done, good day to you sir.

[r0beph]

KOF, listen man....seriously. The article doesn't even say that they're not JUST DRAGONFLIES, I mean someone saw a big bug and freaked out, when one of these things is flat on my windshield, then I'll start to wonder what the hell is going on, but the fact remains, technology does NOT YET EXIST that AT THIS TIME (OR within the near (within the year) future) to create remote self motile automatons or remote control systems that can functionally and with useful results carry any equipment for data retrieval. I mean something would have to be the size of a small bird (humming bird sized perhaps) to carry the gear, camera/audio/tranciever/control/servos/motivator etc which are all required for such a "bug"....

now as far as robotics goes, I've several friends who work for a company called time domain here in town, they do all kindsa cool lil embedded bots and such, I assure you, these guys are bleeding edge, gov't contracts and all that goodness, while some of the stuff they've worked on I'm sure would get you roiling, it's nothing NEAR what you're purporting here....the miniaturization technology simply DOES NOT EXIST>

[KeepOurFreedoms]

KOF, listen man....seriously. The article doesn't even say that they're not JUST DRAGONFLIES, I mean someone saw a big bug and freaked out, when one of these things is flat on my windshield, then I'll start to wonder what the hell is going on, but the fact remains, technology does NOT YET EXIST that AT THIS TIME (OR within the near (within the year) future) to create remote self motile automatons or remote control systems that can functionally and with useful results carry any equipment for data retrieval. I mean something would have to be the size of a small bird (humming bird sized perhaps) to carry the gear, camera/audio/tranciever/control/servos/motivator etc which are all required for such a "bug"....

now as far as robotics goes, I've several friends who work for a company called time domain here in town, they do all kindsa cool lil embedded bots and such, I assure you, these guys are bleeding edge, gov't contracts and all that goodness, while some of the stuff they've worked on I'm sure would get you roiling, it's nothing NEAR what you're purporting here....the miniaturization technology simply DOES NOT EXIST>

Listen lady, so you think you know about 1 company. Big deal. What about ALL the other companies? Please try to think outside the box.

[r0beph]

Listen lady, so you think you know about 1 company. Big deal. What about ALL the other companies? Please try to think outside the box.

Excuse me? There is no need for name calling, I am male, and I do not appreciate such banter from you.

Technology, a sector I am ALL too familiar with, simply DOES NOT HAVE THE MICRONIZATION REQUIRED TO FILL SUCH A SPECIFICATION. It is IMPOSSIBLE, not just improbable. It's not about thinking outside the box, it's about having a background in electronic engineering and KNOWING that componants simply do not exist for motor control / transmission / data collection that could exist at such a size as a "dragon fly" even a bird sized machine would be hard pressed to fulfill the requirement. I don't think you understand the physics behind bird wing flight, which requires variable angle of attack to generate sufficient lift. Insect aerodynamics on the other hand is a bit different, thrust is, for example, created by variable spead downstroke (slower) vs. the higher speed upstroke. A machine using insectile aerodynamics would require a pretty sophisticated gyroscopic control to maintain correct AoA of the central mass to support direction and flight pathing..The biggest problem with the "flapping wing" robot is simply we REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND FLAPPING WING AERODYNAMICS YET, we're not as smart as you'd like to believe... There are many models of aerodynamics for insect wings, the problem is they all seem to be missing various things when approximating the actual lift/thrust vs. motion of the airfoil. Unlike fixed airfoils (airplanes etc) we have no exacting formula for determine lift/thrust/etc for a flapping wing. Other problems I don't feel like going into for insect sized robotics is the aerodynamics of the body shape, body weight shifting, angle of attack of central mass and its effect on thrust provocation, you have a lot more than just some flapping wings to make things fly, and each control over each variable required will be additional weight and micronized non-solid state control systems ( solenoids, motors, powersourcing, etc) all problematic to your supposition.

The physics of micro air vehicles, which are what these would be, and their flight, revolve around a number known as the Reynolds Number. In fluid mechanics, Reynolds number is the ratio of inertial forces to viscous forces and gives the relative importance of these two types of forces for given conditions (inertial forces/viscous forces). Current robotic air vehicles have Reynolds numbers around the size of a bird and NO WHERE near insect.

I don't think that I have a problem thinking outside the box, I think you have a problem realizing the difference between fantasy and reality, while I'm sure some conspiratorial acts occur within the government I don't believe they're using "magic" (which obviously you believe in) to spy on its citizens. Stop smoking all those drugs and read this http://www.amazon.com/dp/1563475170/

[9sublime]

Excuse me? There is no need for name calling, I am male, and I do not appreciate such banter from you.

Technology, a sector I am ALL too familiar with, simply DOES NOT HAVE THE MICRONIZATION REQUIRED TO FILL SUCH A SPECIFICATION. It is IMPOSSIBLE, not just improbable. It's not about thinking outside the box, it's about having a background in electronic engineering and KNOWING that componants simply do not exist for motor control / transmission / data collection that could exist at such a size as a "dragon fly" even a bird sized machine would be hard pressed to fulfill the requirement. I don't think you understand the physics behind bird wing flight, which requires variable angle of attack to generate sufficient lift. Insect aerodynamics on the other hand is a bit different, thrust is, for example, created by variable spead downstroke (slower) vs. the higher speed upstroke. A machine using insectile aerodynamics would require a pretty sophisticated gyroscopic control to maintain correct AoA of the central mass to support direction and flight pathing..The biggest problem with the "flapping wing" robot is simply we REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND FLAPPING WING AERODYNAMICS YET, we're not as smart as you'd like to believe... There are many models of aerodynamics for insect wings, the problem is they all seem to be missing various things when approximating the actual lift/thrust vs. motion of the airfoil. Unlike fixed airfoils (airplanes etc) we have no exacting formula for determine lift/thrust/etc for a flapping wing. Other problems I don't feel like going into for insect sized robotics is the aerodynamics of the body shape, body weight shifting, angle of attack of central mass and its effect on thrust provocation, you have a lot more than just some flapping wings to make things fly, and each control over each variable required will be additional weight and micronized non-solid state control systems ( solenoids, motors, powersourcing, etc) all problematic to your supposition.

The physics of micro air vehicles, which are what these would be, and their flight, revolve around a number known as the Reynolds Number. In fluid mechanics, Reynolds number is the ratio of inertial forces to viscous forces and gives the relative importance of these two types of forces for given conditions (inertial forces/viscous forces). Current robotic air vehicles have Reynolds numbers around the size of a bird and NO WHERE near insect.

I don't think that I have a problem thinking outside the box, I think you have a problem realizing the difference between fantasy and reality, while I'm sure some conspiratorial acts occur within the government I don't believe they're using "magic" (which obviously you believe in) to spy on its citizens. Stop smoking all those drugs and read this http://www.amazon.com/dp/1563475170/

YOUR IN ON THE CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH......

[r0beph]

YOUR IN ON THE CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH......

The cake is not a lie.

[Bunz]

Well what about the mind controlled mosquitos? The secret program where the CIA trains through hypnosis mosquitos and releases them in movie theaters and county fairs and they are designed to detect people with bird flu. The mosquito then bites them first. Then bites everyone else in the place and then everyone has bird flu.

It goes hand in hand of the navy trained seagulls to dive to great depths and bite the airhoses of SCUBA divers swimming from Pakistan to set off EMP bombs in Denver. ;)

[r0beph]

Well what about the mind controlled mosquitos? The secret program where the CIA trains through hypnosis mosquitos and releases them in movie theaters and county fairs and they are designed to detect people with bird flu. The mosquito then bites them first. Then bites everyone else in the place and then everyone has bird flu.

It goes hand in hand of the navy trained seagulls to dive to great depths and bite the airhoses of SCUBA divers swimming from Pakistan to set off EMP bombs in Denver. ;)

http://www.maj.com/gallery/robeph/photoshop/mosquito-01.gif

The mosquitos are a lie... move along citizen.