I can Prove God Does NOT exist

[ArmChair General]

its not that hard either.

[9sublime]

Armchair, you dissapoint again. You really had my hopes up for an epic rant of religious intolerance, something I just can't get enough of.

[ArmChair General]

Armchair, you dissapoint again. You really had my hopes up for an epic rant of religious intolerance, something I just can't get enough of.

As soon as someone defines their God, I'll go ahead and explain to them how it doesnt exist.

[Bunz]

I am an athiest-agnostic, but for argument sakes....

PRAISE BE TO ALLAH!

[ArmChair General]

I am an athiest-agnostic, but for argument sakes....

PRAISE BE TO ALLAH!

yah, but you live in alaska. you don't count.

:D

[Bunz]

Dodging me huh,
Alright, Then I believe in the native creator...the Raven.

Lots of Russian Orthodox out here. Ill take up the Christian version.

Before Israel was granted as the Jewish homeland Alaska was talked about as being a possible location for it said homeland in front of the UN assembly back in the day.

Also in Anchorage, which is a very very diverse community, there are quite a few Budhists. So Ill take that up...whatever is gonna get me the punch line here im down for it. The anticipation is killing me!

On a side note, and keep in mind I live in the middle of nowhere and know everyone in my town. I was in the mall in Anchorage and saw 5 Monks walking through the mall in the full orange robes etc...wearing white bunny boots. I had to walk away and crack up out of thier vicinity.

[Coyote]

Raven...he's a pretty neat character. Kind of like Coyote.

[ArmChair General]

Dodging me huh,
Alright, Then I believe in the native creator...the Raven.

Lots of Russian Orthodox out here. Ill take up the Christian version.

Before Israel was granted as the Jewish homeland Alaska was talked about as being a possible location for it said homeland in front of the UN assembly back in the day.

Also in Anchorage, which is a very very diverse community, there are quite a few Budhists. So Ill take that up...whatever is gonna get me the punch line here im down for it. The anticipation is killing me!

On a side note, and keep in mind I live in the middle of nowhere and know everyone in my town. I was in the mall in Anchorage and saw 5 Monks walking through the mall in the full orange robes etc...wearing white bunny boots. I had to walk away and crack up out of thier vicinity.

watch out, Monks know kung fu. or something.

[Bunz]

Raven...he's a pretty neat character. Kind of like Coyote.

Speaking of mystical K-9 creatures, I just got home from a little drive and saw two wolves on the side of the road. It was dark and all I saw at first was glowing eyes. Then drove by and there was no mistaking it.

[Bunz]

watch out, Monks know kung fu. or something.

Oh I am a very polite person, especially in face to face encounters. I would never say anything remotely disrespectful to them.

Do you know what bunny boots are?
http://www.bunnyboots.com/
I recomend the FAQ section here.

They are an Alaskan staple. Surplus military boots that are very bulbous, but amazingly warm. It could be -30 and I am wearing ankle socks because otherwise my feet sweat. If you were to go over your boots in water, such as falling through ice. You simply dump the water out, and put your foot back in and you will still generate body heat. Developed in the 50s I believe.

Every good Alaskan has them. So I guess these monks. Damn fine Alaskans.

Come on ACG, tell me how you can prove got doesnt exist.

[Bunz]

watch out, Monks know kung fu. or something.

Oh I am a very polite person, especially in face to face encounters. I would never say anything remotely disrespectful to them.

Do you know what bunny boots are?
http://www.bunnyboots.com/
I recomend the FAQ section here.

They are an Alaskan staple. Surplus military boots that are very bulbous, but amazingly warm. It could be -30 and I am wearing ankle socks because otherwise my feet sweat. If you were to go over your boots in water, such as falling through ice. You simply dump the water out, and put your foot back in and you will still generate body heat. Developed in the 50s I believe.

Every good Alaskan has them. So I guess these monks. Damn fine Alaskans.

Come on ACG, tell me how you can prove got doesnt exist.

[Coyote]

Speaking of mystical K-9 creatures, I just got home from a little drive and saw two wolves on the side of the road. It was dark and all I saw at first was glowing eyes. Then drove by and there was no mistaking it.

Now that is neat :grin: We have coyotes but no wolves :(

[r0beph]

all these christians are like:

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/3/5/c/35cb0956bc30413854ab41770fd4b430.jpg

but the fact remains,

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/6/a/4/6a4da42f62be70cf9ae5fb82fcb91303.png

and just for giggles...

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/6/f/a/6faa68d45060d490d98d11a3f5c03a97.jpg

[ArmChair General]

Come on ACG, tell me how you can prove got doesnt exist.

LIke I said, first we have to define God.

[Bunz]

God
-noun
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

[Bunz]

Now that is neat :grin: We have coyotes but no wolves :(

I always think so. We have plenty in Alaska. There was an article this week about a pack of wolves killing a half dozen sled dogs. I have seen quite a few. They are just elusive. To see them from the road is rare. I can think of
5x in my life seeing a wolf/wolves from a automobile.
We have coyote as well, and I have seen many many of them. I may have even pointed a gun at one or two, but that is for another time ;)

One last night was quite large. Easily a body and tail over 6ft long. Probably as tall as great dane at the shoulder. If I would have had a gun with me and it would have been light out, I would have myself a new coat...or several hundred dollars.

[purplebarney]

goodbye to this site. I thought I was entering a realistic forum. obviously i wasn't. well done to the debaters and moderators who have debased what could have been a good site. and you ban people with racist views. fair enough but remember they had views. (maybe racist) but they didn't further childish crap. at least they had a view to debate against. and for the record America isn't the only country on the map. try opening yourself to the rest of the world instead of centering on US policy and politics. Your politics are so un-democratic it begs belief. (2 parties one voice) poplar vote etc etc
america defines what it is to let a country loose with a high GDP and no real morals. your constitution really goes against what both Thomas Paine and also your founding fathers really had in mind.

your constitution was based on greek then Roman then British values. and you have distorted every single one of them?

No wonder the world has no time for you. try to see the world from an objective view. you are the youngest nation on earth. and at the same time the most powerful nation on earth. Your nation has the chance to change world politics. please do the right thing and elect a leader who is qualified. would Britain ever choose an actor or a sibling of another president. No we choose real leaders.

[pocketfullofshells]

Its impossible to prove the lack of existence of something.

[numinus]

Its impossible to prove the lack of existence of something.

Of course not. Haven't you ever (dis)proven a fallacy?

[Aaron Burr]

Isn't anyone going to prove God does not exist? I hear it is quite easy.

Actually, I keep checking this post with ever mounting curiosity. Is this the day? Is this the day that the existence of God is disproven once and for all, and easily?

I hate being a sucker, so somebody spill the beans already.

[numinus]

Isn't anyone going to prove God does not exist? I hear it is quite easy.

Actually, I keep checking this post with ever mounting curiosity. Is this the day? Is this the day that the existence of God is disproven once and for all, and easily?

I hate being a sucker, so somebody spill the beans already.

You probably need to check out the affirmative version of this thread, then.

[ilikeboobs]

If God doesn't exist then where did the universe come from?
The big bang? Well where did the matter for the big bang come from? According to all sorts of physical laws, matter can not come from nothing. Something had to be created in order for the bang to bang.

[numinus]

If God doesn't exist then where did the universe come from?
The big bang? Well where did the matter for the big bang come from? According to all sorts of physical laws, matter can not come from nothing. Something had to be created in order for the bang to bang.

Correct.

Physical cosmology suggests that the beginning of the universe was a space-time singularity.

Imagine space crumpled to a dimensionless point through the action of infinite gravity. Any linear measurement isn't possible.

Imagine all the matter in the universe cramed within that dimensionless point. Whatever one imagines, matter, as we know it, couldn't exist in such a condition.

Imagine an infinite time interval, which is like saying that time stops, or that there is no time.

That, in essence, is a space-time singularity -- a condition where the FUNDAMENTAL UNITS OF PHYSICS - length, mass and time -- doesn't and couldn't exist. And if these quantities don't exist, then the physical laws that operate according to these quantities don't exist as well.

And when the deterministic processes of natural law are absent, what remains, inescapably, is a manifestation of CREATIVE WILL.

[9sublime]

And when the deterministic processes of natural law are absent, what remains, inescapably, is a manifestation of CREATIVE WILL.

Aaaa numinus. I agreed with everything you said until that last bit.

How did you come to that conclusion? Isn't it a leap?

[numinus]

Aaaa numinus. I agreed with everything you said until that last bit.

How did you come to that conclusion? Isn't it a leap?

Can you think of any process that is non-deterministic?

[9sublime]

Organic or mechanical?

[Izz]

No wonder the world has no time for you. try to see the world from an objective view. you are the youngest nation on earth. and at the same time the most powerful nation on earth. Your nation has the chance to change world politics. please do the right thing and elect a leader who is qualified. would Britain ever choose an actor or a sibling of another president. No we choose real leaders.


Because OBVIOUSLY we all voted for him. you imbecile.

Who needs a real leader when you've got an inbred puppet and a prime minister on a red white and blue string?

...Really.

PS- we won the war. beyatch.

FYI, God's a jerk. I don't like He/She/It.

[numinus]

Organic or mechanical?

You choose.

[9sublime]

Actually no, because thats not the angle I wanted to tackle this from - you just pulled me into it you sly dog.

Just because the normal laws of the universe did not apply to its external creation doesn't mean that there is a clear creative will.

[pocketfullofshells]

If God doesn't exist then where did the universe come from?
The big bang? Well where did the matter for the big bang come from? According to all sorts of physical laws, matter can not come from nothing. Something had to be created in order for the bang to bang.

where did God come from?

Just cuz you cant explain something, does not mean you just make up mythical super power for it.

And you do know there are other theories besides the big bang right? That are based in Science, not well some big powerful guy just did it ...end of story.

[numinus]

where did God come from?

A necessary being has no cause - or is the cause of itself. That is the only logical answer in lieu of an infinite regress.

Just cuz you cant explain something, does not mean you just make up mythical super power for it.

And you do know there are other theories besides the big bang right? That are based in Science, not well some big powerful guy just did it ...end of story.

By all means, state them here --- and put your version of science to the test of logic.

[vyo476]

Here's how it works. This universe runs on cause/effect, right? Something happens, it causes something else to happen, that something else causes something else - all of universal history can be viewed as an infinitely complex string of dominoes. This is fully observable, proven, and generally understood.

However, a cause/effect universe has the problem of infinite regress, or the simple question of "how did it start?" After all, in a cause/effect universe everything that exists has a cause. Therefore we're left in a quandry - either infinite regress is possible and somehow the universe has always existed, making it an entity entirely without a cause, or at some point so far back in our history it doesn't pay to think out the numbers something else existed that had no cause, which was the vehicle for creating - well, everything.

Basically this line of reasoning requires consideration of elements too complex for the human brain to fully understand. We may be able to say the words, but understanding the concept is, at present, beyond us.

That's where I'm at right now.

[9sublime]

Yeah, thats pretty much it.

So from what you have said, the conclusion is drawn than something kickstarted the universe. What that is however is totally unproven.

[numinus]

Here's how it works. This universe runs on cause/effect, right? Something happens, it causes something else to happen, that something else causes something else - all of universal history can be viewed as an infinitely complex string of dominoes. This is fully observable, proven, and generally understood.

However, a cause/effect universe has the problem of infinite regress, or the simple question of "how did it start?" After all, in a cause/effect universe everything that exists has a cause. Therefore we're left in a quandry - either infinite regress is possible and somehow the universe has always existed, making it an entity entirely without a cause, or at some point so far back in our history it doesn't pay to think out the numbers something else existed that had no cause, which was the vehicle for creating - well, everything.

Basically this line of reasoning requires consideration of elements too complex for the human brain to fully understand. We may be able to say the words, but understanding the concept is, at present, beyond us.

That's where I'm at right now.

A space time singularity has NO SPACE NOR TIME -- assuming anyone can imagine such a thing. I'm not even sure the question -- what came BEFORE it? -- is valid, since it already assumes a uniform time extending infinitely in all directions. Nor is it valid to imagine an empty vacuum of space, since space is crumpled to a dimensionless point. Nor is it possible to even approach this point since ALL equations breakdown any closer than 1 planck time from the big bang.

It is ABSOLUTE, NON-EXISTENT, NOTHINGNESS. So, we have gone full circle.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth......

[numinus]

Yeah, thats pretty much it.

So from what you have said, the conclusion is drawn than something kickstarted the universe. What that is however is totally unproven.

It proves a non-deterministic first cause, doesn't it. It also proves that the first cause 'kickstarted' EVERYTHING FROM NOTHING, doesn't it? And it was done against the inertial tendencey of nothing to REMAIN as nothing, doesn't it?

If that is not CREATIVE WILL, then I am very much interested on your 'guess' as to what the hell that is?

[9sublime]

It proves a non-deterministic first cause, doesn't it. It also proves that the first cause 'kickstarted' EVERYTHING FROM NOTHING, doesn't it? And it was done against the inertial tendencey of nothing to REMAIN as nothing, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. The finite regression ends at the beginning of the universe we inhabit. What came before that is not neccessarily nothing, but something we have no possible comprehension of and it does not neccessarily have to be one deity-like enitity.

If that is not CREATIVE WILL, then I am very much interested on your 'guess' as to what the hell that is?

I don't know, and whatever guess I hazard is only going to be a guess - because we just don't know. Everyone can talk about creative will, space time singularity dimensions or what not but all we know from the cosmological argument is that the universe was a finite thing and something had to come before it or exists outside of it.

[numinus]

No, it doesn't. The finite regression ends at the beginning of the universe we inhabit. What came before that is not neccessarily nothing, but something we have no possible comprehension of and it does not neccessarily have to be one deity-like enitity.

There is no concept that approximates a singularity other than NOTHINGNESS.

If I pointed you to something that has no spatial dimension and does not exist in time, you're not going to give me the benefit of the doubt, are you?

In fact, you'd think I'm simply insane.

But when its inevitable alternative is the existence of a creator, you find the 'insane' more intellectually palatable?

I don't know, and whatever guess I hazard is only going to be a guess - because we just don't know. Everyone can talk about creative will, space time singularity dimensions or what not but all we know from the cosmological argument is that the universe was a finite thing and something had to come before it or exists outside of it.

We have already gone through this. Remember the flatness problem?

The only way that the universe has existed for 13 billion years is through a CONTRIVED balancing act between the tensile and compressive tendencies of lambda and matter/energy.

Statistically, that is equivalent to winning the jackpot in the lottery for one week straight. No self-respecting physicist is going to accept that.

The alternative, a varying speed of light that would inherently regulate this balance. The consequence -- mass and energy are not conserved -- which means, they are CREATED AND ANNIHILATED IN A COSMOLOGICAL SCALE. Not to mention einstein turning in his grave for making such a suggestion.

The conclusion -- however uncomfortable you might feel about it -- is INEVITABLE.

[9sublime]

There is no concept that approximates a singularity other than NOTHINGNESS.

If I pointed you to something that has no spatial dimension and does not exist in time, you're not going to give me the benefit of the doubt, are you?

In fact, you'd think I'm simply insane.

But when its inevitable alternative is the existence of a creator, you find the 'insane' more intellectually palatable?

A creator would have to exist in this place that has no spatial dimension that does not exist in time, or at least something outside of the universe - a very wierd place in regards to the laws of the universe. So if he exists in this 'insane' place, his existence is just as, if not more 'insane'.

We have already gone through this. Remember the flatness problem?

The only way that the universe has existed for 13 billion years is through a CONTRIVED balancing act between the tensile and compressive tendencies of lambda and matter/energy.

Statistically, that is equivalent to winning the jackpot in the lottery for one week straight. No self-respecting physicist is going to accept that.

The alternative, a varying speed of light that would inherently regulate this balance. The consequence -- mass and energy are not conserved -- which means, they are CREATED AND ANNIHILATED IN A COSMOLOGICAL SCALE. Not to mention einstein turning in his grave for making such a suggestion.

The conclusion -- however uncomfortable you might feel about it -- is INEVITABLE

So the universe's existence is an amazing thing - too amazing. It doesn't mean its some bloke with a big beard on a cloud does it?? I admit there is a creating force, but what that creating force is cannot be proved through the cosmological argument.

[numinus]

A creator would have to exist in this place that has no spatial dimension that does not exist in time, or at least something outside of the universe - a very wierd place in regards to the laws of the universe. So if he exists in this 'insane' place, his existence is just as, if not more 'insane'.

First of all, it is not insane -- since the mathematics from which singularities are extrapolated is not only there, it is the norm in physical cosmology.

Second of all, it is not a place. It is quite literally, a nothingness that applies to all measureable quantities. It is not even similar to euclidean (empty) space contemplated in geometry.

Lastly, the only thing that can possibly exist in such a state, that is, within the human experience or comprehension, is the metaphysical idea of independent and immutable will.

We know that free will exists within each and everyone of us, no?

We know that free will is not a function of our material constitution since it is the impetus by which ideas are created, no?

Why deny the inevitable conclusion of logic?

So the universe's existence is an amazing thing - too amazing. It doesn't mean its some bloke with a big beard on a cloud does it?? I admit there is a creating force, but what that creating force is cannot be proved through the cosmological argument.

As I said, no self-respecting physicist would accept a cosmology that merely suggests 'possible'. It must be the 'most probable' cause given the universe as we know it.

Besides, no one is trying to peddle what is or isn't in the nature of the first cause -- except to say that it EXISTS and it is a CREATIVE WILL -- in the most literal meaning of the word.

Oh, and one other thing, the jackpot analogy I gave -- that is the probability that the universe would remain in this state from one moment to the next for the entire duration of 13 billion years. Think about it.

[Dr.Who]

Everyday that goes by without the proof that God does not exist just confirms that such a proof does not exist.

But we already knew that it was impossible to disprove the existence of God as He is most commonly defined.

After all, wherever He is proven not to be we can just conclude that He could be in some place where one has not looked yet - like heaven.

[Dr.Who]

Everyday that goes by without the proof that God does not exist just confirms that such a proof does not exist.

But we already knew that it was impossible to disprove the existence of God as He is most commonly defined.

[ilikeboobs]

Maybe a story will change your mind:


A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.

I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things." The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me."

“Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

[Dr.Who]

Ha! You caught me by surprise I didn't see that coming.:)

[Dr.Who]

P.S. Your signature is too good. I am going to borrow that for a bit.

[ilikeboobs]

P.S. Your signature is too good. I am going to borrow that for a bit.

I quite insist!

[9sublime]

The problem with your little story is that if people want to go to a barber and have their hair cut - they can. Some homeless people remain devout throughout their lives and still get dealt awful hands at every corner.

[SW85]

As soon as someone defines their God, I'll go ahead and explain to them how it doesnt exist.

OK, but this wouldn't be proof that God doesn't exist. It would be proof that that particular conception of God is imperfect.

Of course not. Haven't you ever (dis)proven a fallacy?

Fallacies are not negatives.


I'm surprised no one has pointed out the obvious -- maybe a belief in God isn't scientific. That's fine. Not everything has to be scientific. It's unscientific to say as much.

[Dr.Who]

The problem with your little story is that if people want to go to a barber and have their hair cut - they can. Some homeless people remain devout throughout their lives and still get dealt awful hands at every corner.

Wheter allegory or true, Jonah was swallowed by a big fish which I am sure was no picnic. But his suffering was needed to further the plan of salvation for all mankind.

Job lost it all to further the plan of salvation for all mankind. His suffering shows us that the God of the universe has the authority to determine the fate of every person on the planet. Which of course He does every day for every person. Everyone will die someday to receive either comendations or justice.

God promises to do what is best for all of us and sometimes what is best is to suffer a bit to further the plan of salvation. What is best for us is to get what we need but not neccessarily to get what we want. And what we need is to be saved from our sin and live an eternity in heaven. Often what we want is to have happiness and a big house.

Jonah and Job are intersting case studies but mostly that is not what is happening. Mostly the suffering we experience is the result of sin. Our own or the sin of others. When I sin I reap the consequences and often that results in suffering for me. Who is to blame but me?

When another sins it also results in suffering for someone. The murderer or rapists causes pain. God cannot be good and take away the free will of the murderer to commit murder. We would all be nothing more than automatons then. Who is to blame for the suffering caused by the rapists except for the rapist?

Most suffering is the result of some sin in the world. A good God cannot take away our free will and a good God would also do something about it. Which He has. He has created a plan to bring about the salvation of all who would trust in Him.

He created me for the purpose of loving Him. He also created my to further His plan for all of humanity. If He chooses to bring me blessing or suffering I hope that I can be thankful either way. If the homeless man is devout all his life then that is a wonderful testimony that people can love God not matter what the circumstances of their lives bring them.

And what should we do about the homless man? Obviously we should help him. You and me, individually or collectively as we choose to band together, should help him. You shouldn't force me to help and I won't force you to help. But nothing is stopping you from right now from keeping a McDonald's gift certicate in your pocket just to give to the homeless or making a donation to a charity that helps homless people or anything else you want to do to help. When enough of us help great things happen. When enough of us are negligent it shows how sinful the world is. The solution to sin has always been to change the hearts and minds of those who are sinning; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."

In contrast passing a law that everyone must contribute to the fund for homelessness does nothing to address the real problem while it puts a bandaid on the problem we see easily.

[9sublime]

Wheter allegory or true, Jonah was swallowed by a big fish which I am sure was no picnic. But his suffering was needed to further the plan of salvation for all mankind.

Hmmm. I very much doubt the factual integrity behind the story in the first place - and I don't see how any sane god regards someone being swallowed by a giant fish an appropriate way for someone to deliver salvation.

Job lost it all to further the plan of salvation for all mankind. His suffering shows us that the God of the universe has the authority to determine the fate of every person on the planet. Which of course He does every day for every person. Everyone will die someday to receive either comendations or justice.

Yes, it was fair to punish Job and test his faith by killing his innocent children. Oh no wait - it was fine in the end- he got new ones!

God promises to do what is best for all of us and sometimes what is best is to suffer a bit to further the plan of salvation. What is best for us is to get what we need but not neccessarily to get what we want. And what we need is to be saved from our sin and live an eternity in heaven. Often what we want is to have happiness and a big house.

I think thats just an excuse for suffering, and a rather piss poor one at that.

I thought he was all loving and all knowing. If he is all loving, why is he testing us in negative ways? If he is all knowing surely he knows if we have faith or not and needs not test it?

The whole suffering is part of God's great plan is the lamest way of trying to come up with an excuse for evil. A small child could invent it.

Jonah and Job are intersting case studies but mostly that is not what is happening. Mostly the suffering we experience is the result of sin. Our own or the sin of others. When I sin I reap the consequences and often that results in suffering for me. Who is to blame but me?

Yes, thats why babies are born with terminal diseases.

When another sins it also results in suffering for someone. The murderer or rapists causes pain. God cannot be good and take away the free will of the murderer to commit murder. We would all be nothing more than automatons then. Who is to blame for the suffering caused by the rapists except for the rapist?

This is beating a strawman. My problem is that if you come to God, why should you ever suffer again with him protecting over you from things like bad luck, terminal diseases etc? I can understand that God needs to allow rapists for free will, and that a beliver could therefore be raped - but why on earth would a believer get cancer? Didn't God design the Earth? Why has he desgined it so small children get lukeimeia?

OOOhh, its all part of his great plan... give me a break. All this talk of God and suffering; Either you've never expericned real suffering, or you have, and as a means to deal with it you've turned to what man has turned to for centuries, God - to make it all feel better. Or you've been brainwashed from birth.

He created me for the purpose of loving Him. He also created my to further His plan for all of humanity. If He chooses to bring me blessing or suffering I hope that I can be thankful either way. If the homeless man is devout all his life then that is a wonderful testimony that people can love God not matter what the circumstances of their lives bring them.

Yes, but it makes you question gods very existence or nature in the first place. If the Christian God does exist, hes a prick and I want no part in his heaven.

And what should we do about the homless man? Obviously we should help him. You and me, individually or collectively as we choose to band together, should help him. You shouldn't force me to help and I won't force you to help. But nothing is stopping you from right now from keeping a McDonald's gift certicate in your pocket just to give to the homeless or making a donation to a charity that helps homless people or anything else you want to do to help. When enough of us help great things happen. When enough of us are negligent it shows how sinful the world is. The solution to sin has always been to change the hearts and minds of those who are sinning; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."

In contrast passing a law that everyone must contribute to the fund for homelessness does nothing to address the real problem while it puts a bandaid on the problem we see easily.

But why should a believer be homeless in the first place? Why is the situation arising?

[Dr.Who]

Hmmm. I very much doubt the factual integrity behind the story in the first place - and I don't see how any sane god regards someone being swallowed by a giant fish an appropriate way for someone to deliver salvation.


Then you haven't read the story.


Yes, it was fair to punish Job and test his faith by killing his innocent children. Oh no wait - it was fine in the end- he got new ones!

Which do you think it was? Was he punished or tested?

The creator of all has the right and authority to determine the time for every person on the planet to meet his end - innocent or not. The guilty will be judged and either found faithless or declared washed. The innocent will get what the need.



I think thats just an excuse for suffering, and a rather piss poor one at that.


That's your opinion.

I thought he was all loving and all knowing. If he is all loving, why is he testing us in negative ways? If he is all knowing surely he knows if we have faith or not and needs not test it?

I do not beleive that He is all knowing or that the Bible claims Him to be all knowing. But that is irrelevant since the test is not used to provide God with information but to provide us with what we need.


The whole suffering is part of God's great plan is the lamest way of trying to come up with an excuse for evil. A small child could invent it.


Evil causes suffering. It is so simple and elementary that a child could figure it out.


Yes, thats why babies are born with terminal diseases.


Yes, disease is the result of evil.


This is beating a strawman. My problem is that if you come to God, why should you ever suffer again with him protecting over you from things like bad luck, terminal diseases etc?

God does not promise to protect you from suffering. He does promise to give you what you need.


I can understand that God needs to allow rapists for free will, and that a beliver could therefore be raped - but why on earth would a believer get cancer?

Cancer is just as much a result of sin as being a rape victim is the result of sin (the rapist's sin). The existence of sin in the worlds corrupts it in many ways.

Didn't God design the Earth? Why has he desgined it so small children get lukeimeia?

God did design the earth and He designed it to be perfect but sin changed it.

OOOhh, its all part of his great plan... give me a break. All this talk of God and suffering; Either you've never expericned real suffering, or you have, and as a means to deal with it you've turned to what man has turned to for centuries, God - to make it all feel better. Or you've been brainwashed from birth.


You do not understand who I am.


Yes, but it makes you question gods very existence or nature in the first place. If the Christian God does exist, hes a prick and I want no part in his heaven.

You misunderstand God to think so. But for a second let's take a look at your statment. First you start with the premise that He exists. If He does exists then His plan is the only plan in town. You have no better alternative. If He exists then His heaven is still better than His hell. Your statement is illogical. I think someone must be in a profound state of rebellion to prefer hell to heaven. So if and when that comes to pass then the results will be just. Of course it is completely up to you.



But why should a believer be homeless in the first place? Why is the situation arising?

Why shouldn't a believer be homeless? All of us here are just a brief whisper of smoke. Our bodies were given to us for enjoyment but they are just bodies. We should not make enjoyment our God. Compared to the richness and eternity that heaven promises no sacrifice is too geat if it will help us to reach heaven.

There may be a thousand reasons for homelessness. But one that I see is that it is an opportunity for you to be compassionate. Will you accept the lesson? Will you let it benefit you? Do you not know that your purpose for being is to love God and your neighbor? So go and love your neighbor.

[9sublime]

You are only making excuses based on no valid proof. Things like evil, sin, testing, punishment. There is no proof of heaven and hell - it is an excuse for the problems in the world which cause problems in the very basis of Christianity.

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

[numinus]

You are only making excuses based on no valid proof. Things like evil, sin, testing, punishment. There is no proof of heaven and hell - it is an excuse for the problems in the world which cause problems in the very basis of Christianity.

A moral good is its own reward. If you persist on acting to the contrary, then you are rejecting the rewards that come from it. Its that simple.

If you need childish concepts of heaven and hell to convince you to behave according to a moral good, then perhaps you would fit in nicely in the dark ages. That doesn't change human existence one bit.

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

Can you see or even appreciate the imperative of a moral good without human suffering?

If you cannot discern a moral good from your own conscience, then you are doomed to exist in private hell of your own making.

[SW85]

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

I defy you to point out the part of the Christian Bible in which it's said that God would guarantee prosperity or even happiness in the physical world.

[Dr.Who]

You are only making excuses based on no valid proof. Things like evil, sin, testing, punishment. There is no proof of heaven and hell - it is an excuse for the problems in the world which cause problems in the very basis of Christianity.

You are half right. There is no empirical proof of heaven or hell. But there is proof to be had for those who seek it. Look inside. God has put the truth there for you to find it. And for some this subjective truth goes beyond what they can find inside. For some they will have an experience where God shows himself to them very directly. They know that no more proof is needed. But since they cannot share what they experience with others for the others to confirm it must remain subjective and not empirical. Moses and all the prophets testify to this. It is your choice to evaluate what they have said with an open mind or not.

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

How we treat each other is very important. Those who harm babies testify through their own behavior that they are not worthy of being in the presence of the Holy One. It is their actions that are being tested and not the effect of those actions. I am not about to make light of the tragedy that is apparent when a baby is born with a terminal disease. This is the effect of sin in general and this grieves God and should grieve us too.

But we must be aware that our bodies are just not that important when you consider that they will fade away very shortly and we may live forever in heaven with God or live forever without God. Even the body of an innocent baby is not that important compared to what that baby will know with God.

Are you grieved by the effects of sin in this world? Then join me and let's do something about it. Refrain from sinning*, encourage others to do the same, pray, help those in need as much as you can. This world was created perfect but has been corrupted by no fault of God. This same God has done what He should; He has enacted a plan to correct the problem of sin. Now we are tested by how we respond to the needs of this world. We can act alone or we can enlist the aid of the Holy Spirit to be even more effective. Trust in Christ and you will be given a helper to aid you in accomplising your part of God's plan.


* I need not tell you what sin is nor define it. God does not need to do so either. You know what it is when you see or do it; the definition of sin is written on your heart. You need only listen to what it is saying. There are those who suffer from a greater ailment than those you have described; kardioschleroses. I pray that you are not one of these.

[Izz]

The problem with arguing about God is that it's all a matter of faith. If a faithful person believes then no logical arguement will dissude him, just as an atheist will not be moved by the arguments of the faithful.

In the case of the Bible arguement, or "the bible being the unfallible word of God" God didn't write the bible. Men did. And men are definitely fallible. Even if God was dictating, the prophets of the bible are still free to change what they want. If, in fact, we were all reading the same bible, then why would we have ten different versions?

[numinus]

The problem with arguing about God is that it's all a matter of faith. If a faithful person believes then no logical arguement will dissude him, just as an atheist will not be moved by the arguments of the faithful.

In the case of the Bible arguement, or "the bible being the unfallible word of God" God didn't write the bible. Men did. And men are definitely fallible. Even if God was dictating, the prophets of the bible are still free to change what they want. If, in fact, we were all reading the same bible, then why would we have ten different versions?

Correct. That is why there are ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS -- you know, the one's I've been posting here?

[Izz]

Correct. That is why there are ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS -- you know, the one's I've been posting here?

Nope. Feel free to tell me.

[Dr.Who]

The problem with arguing about God is that it's all a matter of faith. If a faithful person believes then no logical arguement will dissude him, just as an atheist will not be moved by the arguments of the faithful.

Both atheism and theism are matters of faith and a logical argument against them does not exist.

In the case of the Bible arguement, or "the bible being the unfallible word of God" God didn't write the bible. Men did. And men are definitely fallible. Even if God was dictating, the prophets of the bible are still free to change what they want. If, in fact, we were all reading the same bible, then why would we have ten different versions?

Most people do not claim the bible to be infallible. They claim that in it's original form it was infallible. Yes there are different versions - these are just subtle changes in the way that interpreters interpret what the original says. All the mainstream christian versions agree in almost everything and no major docrine of belief is compromised. The differences are generally minute and unimportant.

p.s. the prophets were not free to change what they wanted.

[numinus]

Nope. Feel free to tell me.

Ontological arguments are philosophical arguments for the existence of god without using the bible -- the cosmological argument being one of them. If I post the argument (again), I might be chastised by the administrators for spamming.