Are we living in the Biblical End times?

[invest07]

2 Timothy 3:2 - For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, uplifted in pride, given to bitter words, going against the authority of their fathers, never giving praise, having no religion.

1. Are we really living in the final generation?
2. Are Biblical prophecies about the End Times now being fulfilled?
3. What the heck does all that weird stuff in the book of Revelation mean for those of us living in 2007 AD?
4. Is the rise of Islamo-Fascism related to end times?
5. Does the United Nations really represent the prophesied One World Government?
6. Is the European Union the ten horns of Revelation?
7. Should we interpret Revelation and Daniel and Ezekiel literally or is all this symbolic?
8. If this is indeed the final generation, what exactly does this mean?
9. Does anything come after the final generation?

I believe we may very well be living in the Biblical End Times prophecied by Daniel and Ezekiel and Isaiah and Jesus. Christian believers in every generation since the death of Jesus have wondered if they are the final generation but I believe an event occurred on May 14, 1948, that signaled the beginning of End Times. That event was the founding of the State of Israel. Jerusalem fell to Babylon in 586 BC and the Jews have not existed as a nation since that time, until the State of Israel was founded.
I believe this founding was a fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:1-6 (the Dry bones vision). End times prophecies in the Bible refer to Israel as existing during the end times as a sovereign nation. So, the founding of the State of Israel seems to signal the official kickoff of End Times.

If you want to discuss any aspect of this, please join in. Atheists, agnostics, God Deniers, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, ad infinitum, are all welcome but please be respectful of everyone’s beliefs. If you disagree or think someone is full of Bull, please state your reasons in a dispassionate and scholarly manner without demeaning the poster’s beliefs.

One World Government

One of the most important elements of End Times prophecy is a One World government. This means the people of earth will have to give up their national sovereignity and join a world body. While this sounds noble and idealistic it is my opinion this would be disastrous. There must be very strong motivation for a sovereign people to even consider giving up that sovereignty. It means giving up our courts and our taxes and submitting to foreign laws. We would be surrendering the rights we have fought so hard for.

13 countries in Europe have already taken the first step in this direction (the EU and Euro currency). Are we (the US) already on the path to a global government?

Is the proposed North American Union of Canada, US and Mexico a step in this direction? Does the utter failure of GWB and the Feds to seal the southern border make this Union more predictable?
Does the highway from Mexico to Canada lay the ground for the NAU?
And what about the SPP pact? Doesn’t SPP requires us to surrender some national sovereignty?
Is all this laying the groundwork for the one world government prophesied in the Bible?

What do you see in the headlines today that may be indicative of End Times?
Did the events of 9/11/2001 lay the groundwork for End Times?
Is the rise in influence of pop culture or atheism or socialism/communism a sign of End Times?
Are the huge political and philosophical differences present today to be expected or are there greater forces at work?

[invest07]

The Bible is the most thoroughly documented text from the ancient world. There are several hundred original manuscripts of the New Testament in existence today. The exact text of the Old Testament was verified word for word with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1948. By comparison, there are fewer than 10 original manuscripts of Homer existing today. The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by 40 or so authors. The Bible includes works of poetry, wisdom, history and prophecy. The Bible’s presentation of history has been challenged many times and has always been verified as accurate in the long run. Recently, the Pool of Siloam was discovered in Jerusalem, in exactly the location described in the book of John, in spite of secular archaeologists discounting it’s existence for years. “Scholars have said that there wasn't a Pool of Siloam and that John was using a religious conceit" to illustrate a point, said New Testament scholar James H. Charlesworth of the Princeton Theological Seminary. "Now we have found the Pool of Siloam … exactly where John said it was." A gospel that was thought to be "pure theology is now shown to be grounded in history," he said.
http://www.bibleplaces.com/poolofsiloamanalysis.htm

Many prophecies from the Bible have already been fulfilled. One of the more remarkable prophecies is in Daniel 2 and Daniel 9. King Nebuchadnezzar has a disturbing dream. Daniel’s interpretation of that dream about 600 BC correctly predicts:

1. The fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire (538 BC)
2. The rise of Alexander the Great (beginning 336 BC)
3. The division of Alexander’s empire by his generals into 4 empires after his death
4. The rise of the Roman Empire (beginning 70 BC) and
5. The rise of a future End Times Roman Empire.

Secular historians are still scratching their heads trying to figure out how Daniel knew all this. This prophecy was 100% correct for #1, 2, 3 and 4 above, then why would it not be accurate for #5?

[vyo476]

I'm curious. What is your reason for posting this?

[9sublime]

I'm curious as to how you can refuse to admit to being a fundamentalist.

[Bunz]

invest, I think you are right, what can man kind do to prevent it from happening again? Or are there so many non-believers that it is to late and we will all feel gods rath, and just hope we are among the chosen few who actually get to live in heaven with God and his son Jesus?

[invest07]

bunz
Have you noticed how coarse our culture has gotten, over the past 30 or so years?

1. You now hear profanity and vulgarity in places you never did before.
2. Pregnancy out of marriage is the norm in Hollywood and Sports, rather than the exception. What is most troubling is the lack of public outrage. Oprah celebrates behavior like this rather than condemns it.
3. Tattoos used to signify crudity and roughness. Now they are "cool".
4. You hear obnoxious music blasted at 100db from cars in traffic.
5. Rap music lyrics use the same coarse language and degrading references to women. Again, where is the public outrage?
6. Television is a toilet. There is no such thing as quality writing. Only shock, sex and phoniness (check out Friday Night Smackdown for a mega dose of all of the above).

My belief is that these are all signs of the End Times. Reread the quote from 2 Timothy which I led off with. But my belief is that these things are inevitable and there is little any one person can do to reverse the course. There are forces at work that are bigger than us and those forces must run their course. This does not mean that we, (Christians, that is) should not resist and stand our ground. It just means that what is happening today was foretold a few thousand years ago and, over time, the forces driving the End Times will get stronger and more pervasive.

There is no other clearer sign to me than abortion. Our court system decided that the unborn's rights are inferior to the Mom's and that the Mom has the "legal right" to murder the unborn. So far the death count is 45 million and increasing at the rate of 3,000 per day. Worldwide the death count exceeds 100 million.

[Questerr]

bunz
Have you noticed how coarse our culture has gotten, over the past 30 or so years?

1. You now hear profanity and vulgarity in places you never did before.
2. Pregnancy out of marriage is the norm in Hollywood and Sports, rather than the exception. What is most troubling is the lack of public outrage. Oprah celebrates behavior like this rather than condemns it.
3. Tattoos used to signify crudity and roughness. Now they are "cool".
4. You hear obnoxious music blasted at 100db from cars in traffic.
5. Rap music lyrics use the same coarse language and degrading references to women. Again, where is the public outrage?
6. Television is a toilet. There is no such thing as quality writing. Only shock, sex and phoniness (check out Friday Night Smackdown for a mega dose of all of the above).

My belief is that these are all signs of the End Times. Reread the quote from 2 Timothy which I led off with. But my belief is that these things are inevitable and there is little any one person can do to reverse the course. There are forces at work that are bigger than us and those forces must run their course. This does not mean that we, (Christians, that is) should not resist and stand our ground. It just means that what is happening today was foretold a few thousand years ago and, over time, the forces driving the End Times will get stronger and more pervasive.

There is no other clearer sign to me than abortion. Our court system decided that the unborn's rights are inferior to the Mom's and that the Mom has the "legal right" to murder the unborn. So far the death count is 45 million and increasing at the rate of 3,000 per day. Worldwide the death count exceeds 100 million.

How can these signs show that our time is the most likely for Christ to return?

Don't you think the Renaissance with its rampant rape, murder, torture, pillaging, and pointless religious warfare would have made a better time?

I mean how can you even compare tattoos and loud music to the Inquisition?

And cursing is nothing new. Just because Hollywood tried to put a shiny face on culture in the 50's and 60's, the fact is that different curse words have been used by different cultures since the beginning of time.

Yeah God is going to end the world because of curse words, out of wedlock pregnancy (never that uncommon, you just used to have to marry a girl you got pregnant or her father would murder you), tattoos, loud rap music, and bad TV.

How freaking petty is God?

And by the way, how can you say this and then claim not be a fundamentalist in the Evolution thread?

Did you become an anti-evolutionist first and then a fundamentalist? Or did you come up with you anti-evolutionist ideas to back up your prior religious fundamentaism?

[9sublime]

I think the main objection with this I have is that I don't believe a goddamn word of the Bible, and even if the Christian God does exist, I don't want to meet him because, looking at the state of the world, hes obviously a class a tosspot.

[r0beph]

bunz
Have you noticed how coarse our culture has gotten, over the past 30 or so years?

[quote]1. You now hear profanity and vulgarity in places you never did before.
You now hear this where that you didn't before. This is such an open ended comment I really cannot warrant any validity.


2. Pregnancy out of marriage is the norm in Hollywood and Sports, rather than the exception. What is most troubling is the lack of public outrage. Oprah celebrates behavior like this rather than condemns it.
This is new? Albert Einstein's 3 children, out of wedlock. Many revered historical figures were born out of wedlock, Leone Battista Alberti, Leonardo da Vinci, Erasmus of Rotterdam, d'Alembert, Alexander Hamilton, Sarah Bernhardt, T.E. Lawrence, Stefan Banach, and Henry Morton Stanley. It is Not new in prevalence, nor is it really any more common than before, the only DIFFERENCE is the social stigma applied in contemporary occurrences.


3. Tattoos used to signify crudity and roughness. Now they are "cool".
huh? where in the world did you get this? The only reason there was even a Christian stigma with tattooing is that they tried illegitimize tattooing while trying to convert indigenous peoples who's culture including tattooing for artistic or spiritual reasoning. It never signified crudity...

4. You hear obnoxious music blasted at 100db from cars in traffic.

I doubt it's 100db, maybe around 45-60...

5. Rap music lyrics use the same coarse language and degrading references to women. Again, where is the public outrage?
where was the public outrage when christians beat their wives in accordance to the biblical scripture. Women are NOT equals according to the bible, the rap music is just keeping up with the christian way.

6. Television is a toilet. There is no such thing as quality writing. Only shock, sex and phoniness (check out Friday Night Smackdown for a mega dose of all of the above).
I agree the sexualization oiled men in speedos and the fact that people even watch wrestling may indeed be a sign of the end times.

[Coyote]

The great thing about prophecies is they're usually general enough, and vague enough that you are sure to fulfill them at some point :D

[SW85]

There's a Biblical End Times prophecy about a star called Wormwood exploding and blanketing the earth with poison. I read online somewhere that Wormwood translates into Russian as Chernobyl. Can't say if that's true or not, but if it is, I'd be more worried about that than a world full of tattoo-clad bastards.

[Questerr]

There's a Biblical End Times prophecy about a star called Wormwood exploding and blanketing the earth with poison. I read online somewhere that Wormwood translates into Russian as Chernobyl. Can't say if that's true or not, but if it is, I'd be more worried about that than a world full of tattoo-clad bastards.

Chernobyl translates as mugwort, which is a relative of wormwood but not the same thing. That is were the confusion comes from.

Not to mention, the prophecy specifically cites the star falling from the sky, which is definately not what happened at Chrenobyl. Nothing at Chernobyl fell, it just blew up.

[Bunz]

You now hear profanity and vulgarity in places you never did before.

Like where? Give me an example.
Pregnancy out of marriage is the norm in Hollywood and Sports, rather than the exception. What is most troubling is the lack of public outrage. Oprah celebrates behavior like this rather than condemns it.

At least in sports, I think this far from the truth. What gets reported, and therefore what you are aware of is the abnormal. Oprah is against god.
Am I the only one who has never seen a single episode of her show?
Tattoos used to signify crudity and roughness. Now they are "cool".

Tell that to the various groups of Polynesians who have been doing it for centuries.
You hear obnoxious music blasted at 100db from cars in traffic.

Would it be different if it wasnt music that you considered obnoxious?
Rap music lyrics use the same coarse language and degrading references to women. Again, where is the public outrage?
Where does this violate the 10 commandments?
Television is a toilet. There is no such thing as quality writing. Only shock, sex and phoniness
You can turn it the channel or off if you dont like it. I dont watch sitcoms, I leave my TV viewing to non-mindnumbing informational channels. History, science, discovery etc. No sitcoms or reality dramas for me.
(check out Friday Night Smackdown for a mega dose of all of the above).

LOL, I am out of the loop. I had to google it to find out it was pro-wrestling.
I dont know about you, but I grew out of pro-wrestling in the third grade. I dont watch it.

Invest...if its not to late to prevent God induced Armageddon, your TV and other media consumption habits are consumer driven. If you dont watch, advertisers pull thier money, the show goes away. In this day and age of mass media with as much competition among the providers. You as a consumer have quite a bit of sway in the content.

There is no other clearer sign to me than abortion. Our court system decided that the unborn's rights are inferior to the Mom's and that the Mom has the "legal right" to murder the unborn. So far the death count is 45 million and increasing at the rate of 3,000 per day. Worldwide the death count exceeds 100 million.
Are the various Christian churches going to pick up the slack they have given since R V. W came about with thier orphanages?
Because the Pro-life campaign and the right wing go hand in hand. The right wing would complain about the additional entitlement spending this would cause. Its a hypocritical unintended consequnce. I for one dont like the idea of abortion. But I will not stand in the way of someone who wants a safe procedure.
What do you think the death toll would be if we still had back alley and cotton field abortions as the norm. Both mother and unborn children?

[Castle]

One does not need to attach a religious prophecy to this to see an end game scenario beginning to play itself out in our time.

Throughout history the object of war was, in most cases, to win. In order to win one had to outlive one's enemy. To accomplish this the path was quite simple up until the end of WWII. Even in the cold war the threat of mutual destruction with the advance of nuclear weapons made it clear to opposing sides that a winning scenario was unlikely under the commonly held definition of victory.

Enter Islamic extremism. They do not need an expensive delivery system to get their weapons here. They are the delivery system and expect to be well compensated in the afterlife. Western society is not prepared to do what is necessary to counteract this new definition of victory. The question is, what will our response be when they deliver. Based on our current position, Im guessing it will be too late.

-Castle

[Bunz]

Castle, I dont see us nearly as close to an end game than we were throughout the cold war. A terrorist group having a nuke, getting it to the US and detonating it undetected is really is a long shot. A really long shot. Despite what the Bush administration would have us believe.

[vyo476]

Have you noticed how coarse our culture has gotten, over the past 30 or so years?

Perhaps to reflect a more honest view of how "course" life is?

1. You now hear profanity and vulgarity in places you never did before.

Yeah, except here, where it's censored. Does that make you feel better?

2. Pregnancy out of marriage is the norm in Hollywood and Sports, rather than the exception. What is most troubling is the lack of public outrage. Oprah celebrates behavior like this rather than condemns it.

Oprah celebrates the creation of life. For a pro-life person you seem awfully quick to condemn it.

3. Tattoos used to signify crudity and roughness. Now they are "cool".

Once upon a time, Jesus was cool, too.

4. You hear obnoxious music blasted at 100db from cars in traffic.

Actually, I think that's a problem, but for public safety reasons.

5. Rap music lyrics use the same coarse language and degrading references to women. Again, where is the public outrage?

I guess there are just a lot of people who identify with that kind of thing. The appearance of legitimacy is a major factor in attracting to people to something. Must get under your skin that 50 Cent seems more legit to modern audiences than Jesus does.

6. Television is a toilet. There is no such thing as quality writing. Only shock, sex and phoniness (check out Friday Night Smackdown for a mega dose of all of the above).

I don't really watch a whole lot of television (I don't even have one at present). Most of the shows that I used to watch relied more on cleverness than depth, which is entertaining if not enlightening.

Just for the fun of it, what would you cite as an example of actual "quality writing"?

[invest07]

Since I have a religious belief, my values are different from most of you God deniers.

1. As to births out of wedlock: The most successful institution in human history is the nuclear family. The nuclear family has existed longer than any other human institution and things don’t last unless they work. The explosion of births out of wedlock is responsible for many woman and children living in poverty and violence and the breakup of the nuclear family. Acceptance of this as normal and not shameful is unspoken approval and guarantees this practice will continue at it's current high rates. Shame used to be used as a motivator. But shame is no longer PC.

2. As to public pronouncements of profanity and vulgarity: This reflects the way certain people think, their lack of vocabulary and their lack of care for strangers. Is it a coincidence that profanity and vulgar language are glorified in movies and music? The language we now hear is partly the result of pop culture glorification and decent speaking people not reprimanding publicly.

3. Rap and other music lyrics: Again, this is a pop culture phenomenon and represents a lowering of standards, reducing everything to the dollar bill. If it sells, do it. Human values take a back seat to CD sales.

4. On TV as a toilet: This has changed slowly over the years and changed for the worse. At least most TV shows used to be safe for young kids. Now we need parental controls and V chips. I agree that turning off the tube is somewhat effective at lessening the influence of TV, but you can't control what your kids see at their friends. The "family hour" is inane game shows and then the excrement programming begins.

5. On quality writing: Some examples of carefully crafted shows with engaging plots and entertaining characters were Seinfeld, The Twilight Zone, Saint Elsewhere, MASH. Today jiggle and innuendo are the selling points instead of originality and talent.

So how does all this relate to End Times? What does the Bible say?:

1. Men will be lovers of self, rebellious to parents, boastful, lovers of money. Any argument that all these conditions exist today?

2. That Israel will exist as a sovereign nation. Happened in 1948. First time the Jews have ruled themselves for 2,500 years.

3. That a one world government will eventually govern most of the world with an iron hand. The wheels are already turning this way. (The UN, the EU, the NAU and SPP).

4. There will be wars and rumors (threats) of wars.

5. Volcanic and seismic activity will increase. Seismic activity has been on the increase since about 1900. "http://www.michaelmandeville.com/polarmotion/spinaxis/vortex_correlations2.htm." The first 2 charts tell this story. This ihas been a long term trend, with no end in site.

6. There will be famines and draughts. Ditto - increasing. "http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine49"

Any one of these prophecies, by themselves are hardly evidence of anything. But when you take all these together, the hadwriting on the wall says "End Times they is a comin".

More prophesies compared to current world conditions to follow.

[Coyote]

Since I have a religious belief, my values are different from most of you God deniers.

Are you a Fundie?

What's a "God denier"?


1. As to births out of wedlock: The most successful institution in human history is the nuclear family. The nuclear family has existed longer than any other human institution and things don’t last unless they work.


Wrong. The so-called "nuclear family" is a modern construct. The definition of "family" has changed throughout history depending on the culture and times. In some cultures family is a man with multiple wives and their children; or a man, wife, their children and all his relatives in a large extended family. These are structures that have been in existence for a milliniums and still are today. "Family" - is probably the most successful human institution, but that is not the same as "nuclear family".


The explosion of births out of wedlock is responsible for many woman and children living in poverty and violence and the breakup of the nuclear family.


Again, you are divorced from reality here. Out of wedlock births among teens is nothing new exactly - though it is definately a big social problem. However - women and children living in poverty and violence is most definately not new nor necessarily related to out of wedlock births.


Acceptance of this as normal and not shameful is unspoken approval and guarantees this practice will continue at it's current high rates. Shame used to be used as a motivator. But shame is no longer PC.


Sure go back to shame (and while your at it stoning) regardless of the circumstances. How civilized. I wonder why the onus was always on the woman and not the man who made her pregnant out of wedlock?


2. As to public pronouncements of profanity and vulgarity: This reflects the way certain people think, their lack of vocabulary and their lack of care for strangers. Is it a coincidence that profanity and vulgar language are glorified in movies and music? The language we now hear is partly the result of pop culture glorification and decent speaking people not reprimanding publicly.


I actually agree with you here though I don't know what the solution is.


3. Rap and other music lyrics: Again, this is a pop culture phenomenon and represents a lowering of standards, reducing everything to the dollar bill. If it sells, do it. Human values take a back seat to CD sales.


Yup.


4. On TV as a toilet: This has changed slowly over the years and changed for the worse. At least most TV shows used to be safe for young kids. Now we need parental controls and V chips. I agree that turning off the tube is somewhat effective at lessening the influence of TV, but you can't control what your kids see at their friends. The "family hour" is inane game shows and then the excrement programming begins.


I rarely watch TV except for PBS.


5. On quality writing: Some examples of carefully crafted shows with engaging plots and entertaining characters were Seinfeld, The Twilight Zone, Saint Elsewhere, MASH. Today jiggle and innuendo are the selling points instead of originality and talent.


Wow. I agree with you here also.


So how does all this relate to End Times? What does the Bible say?:

1. Men will be lovers of self, rebellious to parents, boastful, lovers of money. Any argument that all these conditions exist today?


They exist today but - they've existed many times before in history.


2. That Israel will exist as a sovereign nation. Happened in 1948. First time the Jews have ruled themselves for 2,500 years.

3. That a one world government will eventually govern most of the world with an iron hand. The wheels are already turning this way. (The UN, the EU, the NAU and SPP).


One-world governments have existed before. The definition of world was not always the whole earth. At one time it was Mesopatania, another Europe and Asia before Columbus...other cultures have achieved governance (like Rome) of what they thought was the "world". The world will change again when we discover other planets and star systems.

4. There will be wars and rumors (threats) of wars.


Again - this has existed for ages. There is actually a lot less war then there was in other eras.



5. Volcanic and seismic activity will increase. Seismic activity has been on the increase since about 1900. "http://www.michaelmandeville.com/polarmotion/spinaxis/vortex_correlations2.htm." The first 2 charts tell this story. This ihas been a long term trend, with no end in site.


Has seismic activity been on the increase or is it our ability to detect it and record it?


6. There will be famines and draughts. Ditto - increasing. "http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine49"


They've been increasing and decreasing for ages - but our population is going up, global warming is having an effect - it may increase more.


Any one of these prophecies, by themselves are hardly evidence of anything. But when you take all these together, the hadwriting on the wall says "End Times they is a comin".

More prophesies compared to current world conditions to follow.

The handwriting says these things have been going on for a long time - sometimes increasing, sometimes decreasing.

[Castle]

Castle, I dont see us nearly as close to an end game than we were throughout the cold war. A terrorist group having a nuke, getting it to the US and detonating it undetected is really is a long shot. A really long shot. Despite what the Bush administration would have us believe.
Quite frankly, I'm not so sure that the Bush administration knows what it wants us to believe at this point. Having said that, I have little interest in what any administration wants me to believe outside the realm of common sense.

As for a comparison between the threat level during the cold war and now.....What do you think convinced Khrushchev to back off of Cuba? There was no checkmate to be had with an American President that was willing to play out the end game scenario. With both sides in control of a formidable nuclear arsenal, the conclusion was obvious. The object was to win and by the classic definition of victory this was simply not going to happen.

Looking at just a few of the many quotes from Ahmadinejad I don't see this prerequisite for victory. Islamic extremists are willing to make sacrifices that were simply unacceptable during the cold war. The terms of victory do not include their own survival as has been the case with former adversaries. Our own destruction takes precedence. In my opinion, this raises the threat level exponentially.

Why is it such a long shot to consider a nuclear detonation in the US? The borders, both northern and southern, being as porous as they are makes the first stage easy. One does not need a missile with multiple warheads and an 18 wheeler to attempt a US border penetration. Hell, assembly of a small device can be accomplished within our borders. With financial and logistical support from say......Iran, why is this so hard to consider?

I'm remembering a quote from the movie - the peacemaker
"I'm not afraid of the man who wants ten nuclear weapons, Colonel. I'm terrified of the man who only wants one."

-Castle

[Bunz]

I'm not so sure that the Bush administration knows what it wants us to believe at this point.
I agree

[Bunz]

Terrorists having a nuke has always been a possibility. I find it interesting, the ones who take the stance on foreign relations who claim they want to protect us from such threats have caused the biggest provocation of it.

[9sublime]

Terrorists having a nuke has always been a possibility. I find it interesting, the ones who take the stance on foreign relations who claim they want to protect us from such threats have caused the biggest provocation of it.

Great comment mate, far too true.

[r0beph]

bunz

6. Television is a toilet. There is no such thing as quality writing. Only shock, sex and phoniness (check out Friday Night Smackdown for a mega dose of all of the above).

http://www.maj.com/gallery/robeph/forumimages/endisnighwrasslin.jpg

[Castle]

Terrorists having a nuke has always been a possibility. Yes it has, albeit a remote one considering the nuclear club has been a rather exclusive one until recently. Not true now.

I find it interesting, the ones who take the stance on foreign relations who claim they want to protect us from such threats have caused the biggest provocation of it.
Yes and I find it even more interesting that those who label that protection as provocative and question the intent are the first in line for torches at the mob store when that protection fails in 9/11 fashion. Its either provocation or complacency. I guess its just a matter of which way the political stench is blowing at the moment.

-Castle

[9sublime]

Its either provocation or complacency.

-Castle

I guess you've never heard of striking a balance.

[Bunz]

http://www.maj.com/gallery/robeph/forumimages/endisnighwrasslin.jpg

Is this a real pic? Are they now setting each other onfire for pro-wrestling? WTF happened to a supplex?

[r0beph]

Is this a real pic? Are they now setting each other onfire for pro-wrestling? WTF happened to a supplex?

I imagine this is actually from the 80s lol

[Bunz]

I imagine this is actually from the 80s lol

LOL, I am begining to realize how much out of the loop on stuff I am when it comes to pop culture.

[r0beph]

LOL, I am begining to realize how much out of the loop on stuff I am when it comes to pop culture.

I don't watch wrestling, never have. Except for WWF superfriends or whatever it was, the cartoon, which was actually a cool lil show, and not just oily men in tights. I just found that pic amusing and...sorta on topic, so I added the text, and posted it.

[Bunz]

It was a good one. With where I live, we have a fair amount of access to the goings on of the world, but barely get to see or experience it with our own eyes. It could probably be equated to being on the space station. Isolation but access. I prefer it that way.

[Castle]

I guess you've never heard of striking a balance.Well sure I have. How often do human beings actually do that really? Lets see, there's television and some very good fictional books I've read recently. Then there's the current crop of world leaders we can depend on to strike a balance. Now there's the fiction.

-Castle

[invest07]

questerr
"Don't you think the Renaissance with its rampant rape, murder, torture, pillaging, and pointless religious warfare would have made a better time?"
The problem with this time period is that there was no state of Israel. Israel as a sovereign nation is a requirement for the End Times.
The renasisance was no piece of cake but the time period just prior may have been worse.

[Questerr]

questerr
"Don't you think the Renaissance with its rampant rape, murder, torture, pillaging, and pointless religious warfare would have made a better time?"
The problem with this time period is that there was no state of Israel. Israel as a sovereign nation is a requirement for the End Times.
The renasisance was no piece of cake but the time period just prior may have been worse.

Doesn't the prophecy also require Israel to rebuild the Temple again? I don't see the Israelis doing that anytime soon, especially since modern Jewish tradition has lost the need for a Temple.

[9sublime]

I just read over this and saw you called us all God deniers.

I prefer to think of you as someone who denies gaps in his knowledge about what happens after death, but each to their own eh?

[r0beph]

Doesn't the prophecy also require Israel to rebuild the Temple again? I don't see the Israelis doing that anytime soon, especially since modern Jewish tradition has lost the need for a Temple.

Yeah but then they'd have to tear down the 'Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah', which would likely put even the peaceful muslims into kill mode. The site where the temple once stood is the supposed location of the 'even ha shetiya' or foundation stone of the jewish religion, this is where the ark of the covenent was said to have been when the first temple still stood. It's also supposed this is where Abraham fulfilled God's test to see if he'd sacrifice his son. (This rock has a hole that drains into a cavern with no exit, called the well of souls, and they think this is where the blood would drain away during religious sacrifices.) To muslims, who control it now, with the temple Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah (Dome of the Rock) This was where Mohammad was said to have arisen into heaven. They say that the rock contains the hoof print of Mohammad's horse from where it propelled him up.

Either way, this area is obviously extraordinarily important to both religions. Destroying the Dome, which has been there since the late 600s, would not only be destroying one of the oldest buildings still standing and in use for the same purpose as it was originally built for, but this would piss off the muslims more than anyone has likely ever seen.

[Mare Tranquillity]

Every generation since the time of Jesus has believed that they lived in the end times. Since the Bible is nothing but an eclectic collection of stories and myths from earlier religions and traditions it really has no predictive power. Of course you can point to things and claim that they are the fulfillment of some prediction in the Bible--people have been doing that for 2000 years. The Disciples believed that Jesus was coming back within THEIR lifetimes.

If Jesus has the sense God gave grapefruit, He won't come back at all--would you come back after what happened last time?

[invest07]

1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"
2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"
4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand.
6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages,[b] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"
8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Revelation 6: 1-8

These words were penned during the 1st century AD by John who was in prison on the island of Patmos for refusing to acknowledge the man Ceasar as God. Bible scholars agree these words were written for later generations. The images invoked by these words are startlingly apropos in today’s unsettled world climate.

The first horsemen is a conqueror with a bow and no arrows. His goal is world conquest but without bloodshed. He must achieve this world conquest politically. The UN comes to mind. The UN has been a haven for all the petty thugs and dictators of the world as it gives them legitimacy. Could one extremely wealthy person (or a confederation of individuals) use subterfuge and political influence to effectively control the UN?

The second horseman represents war. My guess is the first horsemen is only partly successful politically and resorts to war to achieve his means. This may by civil war or war among rival warlords (such as is now happening in Beirut and Darfur). It might be war between Hamas and other rival Palestinian groups. It might be a war of agression between nations. (Remember the actions of Germany and Japan in the 1930’s and the actions of Saddam Hussein in the 1990’s).

The end result of the first and second horsemen is inflation and shortages of critical commodities. It will cost a days’ work to pay for a days’ food, leaving nothing left to pay the mortgage or utility bill. And the very wealthy (the oil and wine) will be spared by buying their way out and using their influence. Gas costing $3.00+ a gallon is only the beginning.

And the 4th horsemen is the scariest. Death by disease, malnutrition, famine and by war. One fourth of the earth’s present population is 1.5 billion humans. Dead as a result of the first 3 horsemen.

You may chose to dismiss the relevance of the Bible. You may chose to laugh at this imagery and dismiss the prophecy in Revelation. But when you understand how current world events fit into Biblical prophecy, you may, just may, rethink your dismissal of the Bible as myth and legend.

[invest07]

“Shalom and welcome to the official website of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, Israel. The Temple Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the concept of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, and the central role it fulfilled, and will once again fulfill, in the spiritual wellbeing of both Israel and all the nations of the world. The Institute's work touches upon the history of the Holy Temple's past, an understanding of the present day, and the Divine promise of Israel's future. The scope of these activities includes education, research, and development. The Temple Institute's ultimate goal is to see Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, in accord with the Biblical commandments.”
http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

This is from the opening page of a web site dedicated to rebuilding Solomon’s Temple. The money for this venture has already been raised. The implements used by priests during Solomon’s time have already been fabricated precisely as described in the Bible. The red heifer has already been located and his genetic line has now been established.. People have already been trained and raised in strict accordance with Levitical laws. The original architecture has been studied and blueprints are now in existence to recreate Solomon’s Temple as close to the original as possible.

The Jews of the world are ready at this very moment to rebuild Solomon’s Temple. If the opportunity presented itself, they sould break ground tomorrow. They are only waiting for the political opportunity to proceed.

At the present time, world events and attitudes in the Islamic world are not favorable for the Temple to be rebuilt. But the Jews are patient. They waited over 2500 years for their own nation. And now they are waiting for the opportunity to rebuild the Temple. And they know that the world will be changing dramatically during End Times.

[palerider]

Castle, I dont see us nearly as close to an end game than we were throughout the cold war. A terrorist group having a nuke, getting it to the US and detonating it undetected is really is a long shot. A really long shot. Despite what the Bush administration would have us believe.

How do you figure? We know that quite a few suitcase nukes are AWOL from the old soviet union. Is it far fetched to believe that they can be bought if you know the right people or have the right agenda?

Considering that our borders are like a sieve, how difficult exactly do you believe it would be to get one into the country?

Explain the long shot theory?

[invest07]

“Colony Collapse Disorder has affected at least half of all US commercial honeybee colonies. Honeybees pollinate more that $15 billion in crops each year in the US.

Beekeepers from 35 states have been forced to stand back and watch as entire hives of bees rapidly diminish in both strength and number—with some reporting 30% to 90% losses. Called Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), these losses threaten a $14.6 billion dollar industry that pollinates one-third of the United States food supply. Similar losses have been reported in Canada, a number of nations in Europe and New Zealand.

Inspecting the abdomens of infected honeybees found not just one pathogen, but nearly every disease, bacteria and virus that has infected bees over the previous century. Their immune systems were compromised”
Source: Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and extension Consortium

So what do dying bees and End Times have in common? I think there may be a direct correlation with the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse”.

Each of the plagues that afflicted Egypt circa 1450 BC was from the natural world. Frogs, locust, darkness. And the End Time events have an definite relation to the Egyptian plagues. Many End Times prophecies are repeats of the Egyptian plagues. So why are our honeybees just now susceptible to this combination of diseases? There is no record of similar bee losses at any other time in recorded history.

Why do so many people die of cancer today when few had ever heard of cancer during the 1800’s and prior? How did AIDS so suddenly appear during the 1970’s? AIDS seemingly came from nowhere and is now the leading cause of death in some countries.

Is it really a coincidence that our planet’s climate is changing now? Is it also a coincidence that the Earth's magnetic field is diminishing in strength? Is it also a coincidence that volcanic and seismic activity have been on the increase since 1900? Is it also a coincidence that the "wobble" of the earth's axis is increasing? Is it also a coincidence that the Sun's solar output has been on the increase for over 2 decades? Is it possible that the affect of these natural events on human history were foretold thousands of years ago? The inevitable result of all of these natural trends is to create an environment on Earth that is conducive to many of the conditions described by John in Revelation.

Why are so many diseases now resistant to treatment? Why is smallpox still around? Didn’t the UN/WHO proclaim smallpox as eradicated during the 1980’s?

Pesticides and medicine have been wildly successful in killing harmful bugs and disease. But are we now paying the price as Natural Selection weeds out the easy to kill and leaves only the toughest and most resilient to survive?

How do we feed 6 billion people without fertilizer and pesticides? Is it even possible? How do we provide medical service to 6 billion humans without using even more medicine? Are we cutting out own throats every time we take an antibiotic? Sure we kill the disease inside our body today but are we the instruments of breeding still stronger bugs and diseases for the future?

Is our success with medicines and pesticides only short lived? Have we relieved present suffering only to have created a bigger problem in the future?

If bees are dying in record numbers, then many important food crops are not being adequately pollinated. Bee colonies used to be a common sight in Florida orange groves. But that may change. Without adequate pollination, the output per acre will diminish. And citrus from Florida and California and Texas will not be so plentiful. And other crops pollinated by bees will be affected. Corn, wheat, vegetables, cane, apples, berries, peaches, peanuts, almonds, ad infinitum.

Do we have a food crisis just on the horizon? Many knowledgeable writers today are alluding to this possibility. If gasoline can be scarce, why not food? The price of many foods is higher this year and this trend is expected to continue in the near future.

I’m not 100% sure any of this is a sure sign of the Biblical End Times. No one is 100% sure and no one can be. But a lot of the stuff happening in the world today seems to be falling into a pattern that was prophecied over 2,000 years ago.

Coincidence? Maybe.

But the more current events that fall into the pattern of Biblical Prophecy, the less likely a coincidence becomes.

[Mare Tranquillity]

How do you figure? We know that quite a few suitcase nukes are AWOL from the old soviet union. Is it far fetched to believe that they can be bought if you know the right people or have the right agenda?

Considering that our borders are like a sieve, how difficult exactly do you believe it would be to get one into the country?

Explain the long shot theory?

Suitcase nukes are an urban myth, even the US doesn't have any that small. Nice to see you posting again, Pale, have a nice sabbatical?:)

[numinus]

Suitcase nukes are an urban myth, even the US doesn't have any that small. Nice to see you posting again, Pale, have a nice sabbatical?:)

What makes a nuke so big is its delivery system, not the warhead. If you are going to lug it in a back pack, it wouldn't be that big, now, would it?

[Mare Tranquillity]

What makes a nuke so big is its delivery system, not the warhead. If you are going to lug it in a back pack, it wouldn't be that big, now, would it?

One cannot prove a negative, I cannot prove that they do NOT exist, so I guess the onus falls on the people who claim they do exist to prove their point.

I suppose that you are arguing for the sake of it and really have no interest in suitcase nukes at all. Please feel free to continue calling me names on this thread too, it does SO MUCH to enhance your intellectual image.:p

[numinus]

One cannot prove a negative, I cannot prove that they do NOT exist, so I guess the onus falls on the people who claim they do exist to prove their point.

I suppose that you are arguing for the sake of it and really have no interest in suitcase nukes at all. Please feel free to continue calling me names on this thread too, it does SO MUCH to enhance your intellectual image.:p

Suitcase nukes are perfectly feasible and is the reason for so many nuclear weapons protocols in place. As for name-calling, I believe you know so much more about that than I do. It seems that you would call anyone a bigot simply by disagreeing with you.

[Mare Tranquillity]

Suitcase nukes are perfectly feasible and is the reason for so many nuclear weapons protocols in place. As for name-calling, I believe you know so much more about that than I do. It seems that you would call anyone a bigot simply by disagreeing with you.

No, only the ones calling for the implementation of bigoted policies, you know, like legal discrimination with no logical basis except religious dogma.

[numinus]

No, only the ones calling for the implementation of bigoted policies, you know, like legal discrimination with no logical basis except religious dogma.

LMAO

Only a fool would use the word 'legal' to describe 'discrimination'. The very nature of discrimination contradicts all the principles the constitution was founded on - hence illegal.

Oh, and you still haven't shown one post where I made use of any religious dogma. Or do you even know what a dogma is?

[Mare Tranquillity]

LMAO

Only a fool would use the word 'legal' to describe 'discrimination'. The very nature of discrimination contradicts all the principles the constitution was founded on - hence illegal.

Oh, and you still haven't shown one post where I made use of any religious dogma. Or do you even know what a dogma is?

It's you attitude that is religious. You are so smug and arrogant in your absolute knowledge of everything that you write like any other Bible-beater. You are also consumed by hatred for homosexual men (my guess would be that it's really fear).

Slavery was legal discrimination. Or are you going to argue that enslaving people on the basis of race is rational? In the same way, denying one group of consenting adults the Constitutionally guaranteed right to equal protection under the law is discrimination. Voting it into law makes it "legal" discrimination. I didn't say ethical or moral. Legal is nothing more than something in the law and we have had many discriminatory laws: slavery, Jim Crow laws, denying women the right to vote or own property, denying full citizenship to some people, and denying basic humanity to others.

I love the fact that you realize that discrimination is illegal under the US Constitution. What puzzles me is why you are support this illegal activity. It's not rational.

[Mare Tranquillity]

It's too bad that I annoy you so much, Num, because you are so anxious to rebut everything I write that it leads you to take irrational stances and it prevents you from learning. Again, this is a religiously-flavored attitude: I am so bad or evil or stupid or (fill in your own expletive) that you KNOW I could not possibly have anything to say that you can't prove wrong or denigrate in some way. That kind of attitude gives lie to your obvious intellectual capacity. Sad really.:(

[Questerr]

Suitcase nukes are an urban myth, even the US doesn't have any that small. Nice to see you posting again, Pale, have a nice sabbatical?:)

Mare,

Research the SADM: Special Atomic Demolition Munition. It was a 70 pound man packable nuclear device designed to allow small special forces units to destroy airfields and dams by themselves.

It may not be suitcase sized, but you could definately sneak into the country in your average car. The 5 Kiloton (variable yield) warhead has roughly the same destructive capacity as the Hiroshima bomb.

[Questerr]

“Shalom and welcome to the official website of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, Israel. The Temple Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the concept of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, and the central role it fulfilled, and will once again fulfill, in the spiritual wellbeing of both Israel and all the nations of the world. The Institute's work touches upon the history of the Holy Temple's past, an understanding of the present day, and the Divine promise of Israel's future. The scope of these activities includes education, research, and development. The Temple Institute's ultimate goal is to see Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, in accord with the Biblical commandments.”
http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

This is from the opening page of a web site dedicated to rebuilding Solomon’s Temple. The money for this venture has already been raised. The implements used by priests during Solomon’s time have already been fabricated precisely as described in the Bible. The red heifer has already been located and his genetic line has now been established.. People have already been trained and raised in strict accordance with Levitical laws. The original architecture has been studied and blueprints are now in existence to recreate Solomon’s Temple as close to the original as possible.

The Jews of the world are ready at this very moment to rebuild Solomon’s Temple. If the opportunity presented itself, they sould break ground tomorrow. They are only waiting for the political opportunity to proceed.

At the present time, world events and attitudes in the Islamic world are not favorable for the Temple to be rebuilt. But the Jews are patient. They waited over 2500 years for their own nation. And now they are waiting for the opportunity to rebuild the Temple. And they know that the world will be changing dramatically during End Times.

Invest,

I've been doing research on movements to rebuild the Temple in Israel and they aren't favorable of your position. The Israeli government and all Jewish sects outside extreme right wing Orthodox Jews oppose the construction of the Temple until the arrival of the Jewish Massiah. They won't allow the temple to be rebuilt.

If the Israeli government opposes it, it won't happen. They can't risk the retaliation from the Islamic world, not to mention the majority of Jewish sects don't support it.

Also, they DON'T know that the world will be changing dramatically in the end times, because they don't believe in the truth of the New Testament or Revalations. Why would they be waiting for something to happen that they don't believe is going to happen?

[Mare Tranquillity]

Mare,

Research the SADM: Special Atomic Demolition Munition. It was a 70 pound man packable nuclear device designed to allow small special forces units to destroy airfields and dams by themselves.

It may not be suitcase sized, but you could definately sneak into the country in your average car. The 5 Kiloton (variable yield) warhead has roughly the same destructive capacity as the Hiroshima bomb.

Fair enough, not exactly suitcase sized, but capable of being carried in a car. I was reading an article the other day in which they were saying that our current state of the art will not allow us to make a real "suitcase" nuke. Good to have your input, Mr. Questerr, thank you.

[LibertyHawk]

There are fewer people starving to death proportional to the Earth's population than at any time in history.
There are fewer people dying in wars proportional to population than at anytime in history.

The Book of Revelations states that things must be worse than they ever have been.

I see no evidence that anything is even *close* to this.

[vyo476]

There are fewer people starving to death proportional to the Earth's population than at any time in history.
There are fewer people dying in wars proportional to population than at anytime in history.

The Book of Revelations states that things must be worse than they ever have been.

I see no evidence that anything is even *close* to this.

But...but...rappers! And sex on TV!

[Coyote]

But...but...rappers! And sex on TV!

Don't forget gay marriage...

[vyo476]

Don't forget gay marriage...

Of course. And then there's this thing, which is clearly demonic:

http://www.savvycenter.com/explorer/roadside/wackycars/meow2.jpg

This was not the way Jesus told us to have cars.

Oh wait...he didn't tell us about cars, did he? Or television, for that matter. Gee, I wonder why the all-knowing Christian God never mentioned any of these things. Surely he knew they were coming...? :rolleyes:

[Coyote]

Of course. And then there's this thing, which is clearly demonic:

http://www.savvycenter.com/explorer/roadside/wackycars/meow2.jpg

This was not the way Jesus told us to have cars.

Oh wait...he didn't tell us about cars, did he? Or television, for that matter. Gee, I wonder why the all-knowing Christian God never mentioned any of these things. Surely he knew they were coming...? :rolleyes:

What do you mean he didn't tell us about cars?


Here's proof - the Jesus Bus!!!!

http://www.hooptylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/jesustruck3.jpg

[Bunz]

LOL The JESUS BUS!!

[Mare Tranquillity]

I can't believe how you insensitive clods are making fun of the people who think these are the end times.:p

It is interesting to note that nearly every generation of Christians believed that THEY were living in the end times--even the apostles believed that Jesus would return in their lifetimes.:( Didn't happen, my guess is that it won't happen since none of the other crucified saviors ever came back either--and who can blame them?:eek:

[Bunz]

I agree Mare, if anything would have been biblical end times, what about the black plague? The world wars? Native American genocide? I could list it on and on. Despite me not being happy with the current path our government is on, there have been worse times. Maybe not in my life, but certainly in the last 100 years.

But I keep forgetting that God Hates the internet. It is the internet that will end the world.

[numinus]

It's you attitude that is religious. You are so smug and arrogant in your absolute knowledge of everything that you write like any other Bible-beater. You are also consumed by hatred for homosexual men (my guess would be that it's really fear).

LMAO.

I am rejecting your arguments on the basis of LOGIC and REASON. You reject my argument on its percieved similarity to the reasoning of bible-beaters.

Need I remind you of the correct definition of a bigot? Who's the bigot now, eh?

Slavery was legal discrimination. Or are you going to argue that enslaving people on the basis of race is rational? In the same way, denying one group of consenting adults the Constitutionally guaranteed right to equal protection under the law is discrimination. Voting it into law makes it "legal" discrimination. I didn't say ethical or moral. Legal is nothing more than something in the law and we have had many discriminatory laws: slavery, Jim Crow laws, denying women the right to vote or own property, denying full citizenship to some people, and denying basic humanity to others.

That's it! Don't even bother to hide your straw man arguments. It suits you to be spouting one fallacy after another.

But I see you cannot be bothered to know even your own history intimately. It can be presented in a way that suits your argument, after all.

Slavery was a political expediency that even the founding fathers were aware of. To them, the situation dictated that the formation of the union is paramount to all other considerations at the time. That is why the constitution had a built-in mechanism to correct whatever errors, forseeable or not.

And so, slavery CONTRADICTS the principles embodied in the constitution, THEN AND NOW. Anyone who applies his reasoning ability alone would see this instantly. While it needed a civil war to correct such a situation, slavery is a condition that is REPUGNANT to any thinking individual REGARDLESS of whatever law is being promulgated.

I love the fact that you realize that discrimination is illegal under the US Constitution. What puzzles me is why you are support this illegal activity. It's not rational.

Because legislated homosexual marriages have NO RATIONAL BASIS. If it had any rational basis, then you would have stated them by now, instead of posting fallacies one after another.

[numinus]

Fair enough, not exactly suitcase sized, but capable of being carried in a car. I was reading an article the other day in which they were saying that our current state of the art will not allow us to make a real "suitcase" nuke. Good to have your input, Mr. Questerr, thank you.

Can you not smuggle the individual parts of a nuke warhead and assemble it quietly while your in?

If you would only employ an iota of thought rather than saving face in any debate, you wouldn't be thoroughly humiliated repeatedly. As it stands, you have lost all intellectual credibility.

[vyo476]

What do you mean he didn't tell us about cars?


Here's proof - the Jesus Bus!!!!

http://www.hooptylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/jesustruck3.jpg

Okay, you win. The Jesus Bus is irrefutable proof.

I guess the end times really are coming then. Everyone prepare.

http://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenend.jpg

[imonlysaying]

a reply to the original post:

as there are so many deviations along the way lol

We will reach a world government. it is a purely logical conclusion to human life.

we start as small communities where someone takes the mantle. these small communities grow into larger communities but still a group takes the mantle.............................. forward to the 21st century and BEYOND. Our world has to by logical conclusion of human behaviour become one society!!!

and at the head of every society there has to be a ruling power. I won't speculate what that will be but it will happen.

The world is now tied by economics. we are now one whether we want to be or not. If brazil suffers, we all suffer. If America or Japan or Britain or China or Russia suffer (amongst others) then we suffer more. We are now a world connected.

What happens to one happens to all in some degree.

Logically there has to be a world government. Whether this is for good or for evil I will not speculate here.

[Mare Tranquillity]

This is the kind of stuff I wrote about before: you are so annoyed/angry with me that you will say anything to rebutt or argue with anything I write. Now you are actually being an apologist for slavery and you are stating that the US Constitution is irrational. Okay, Num, if you want this, then I guess I'll have to give it to you.

I am rejecting your arguments on the basis of LOGIC and REASON. You reject my argument on its percieved similarity to the reasoning of bible-beaters. Need I remind you of the correct definition of a bigot? Who's the bigot now, eh? That's it! Don't even bother to hide your straw man arguments. It suits you to be spouting one fallacy after another.
Not sure what you mean by this drivel, I'm not the one arguing vague religious-sounding dogma in an attempt to abrogate the US Constitution.

But I see you cannot be bothered to know even your own history intimately. It can be presented in a way that suits your argument, after all.
Look up the Dred Scott case before the US Supreme Court and see what the Justices said about the lack of rights of black people.

Slavery was a political expediency that even the founding fathers were aware of. To them, the situation dictated that the formation of the union is paramount to all other considerations at the time. That is why the constitution had a built-in mechanism to correct whatever errors, forseeable or not.
What has this got to do with anything? Basically you are arguing that the end justified the means. Slavery was legal, and practiced in this country for more than a century. You may excuse the slavers if you wish, but from the perspective of the hundreds of thousands of black people who died I doubt that your excuses will carry much weight. Anyone being an apologist for slavery is on the wrong side of the discussion. Slavery is the second worst crime of the American people.

And so, slavery CONTRADICTS the principles embodied in the constitution, THEN AND NOW. Anyone who applies his reasoning ability alone would see this instantly. While it needed a civil war to correct such a situation, slavery is a condition that is REPUGNANT to any thinking individual REGARDLESS of whatever law is being promulgated.
You are correct when you say that slavery is repugnant and that it contradicts the principles embodied in the Constitution. (Scary isn't it when we agree on something?) Any time one group of people is singled out for "legal discrimination" it contradicts the principles of the Constitution, doesn't it? When women were not allowed to own property? When women were not allowed to vote? When black people were enslaved? When black people were denied full citizenship? When homosexual people are denied full citizenship?

Because legislated homosexual marriages have NO RATIONAL BASIS. If it had any rational basis, then you would have stated them by now, instead of posting fallacies one after another.
This is my favorite paragraph in your post, Num, I saved it for last. The best rational basis for giving homosexual people equal rights is the US Constitution which guarantees EVERYBODY equal rights. That seems pretty rational to me. It seems pretty rational for a gay guy staying at home to care for his adopted children to be given the same rights as any other stay-at-home Dad. His children should enjoy the same legal protections and privileges as any other child.

The whole idea of the US Constitution is equality. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, equal protection under the law, no one above the law, no one below the law. Seems pretty rational to me. And you?

[numinus]

This is the kind of stuff I wrote about before: you are so annoyed/angry with me that you will say anything to rebutt or argue with anything I write. Now you are actually being an apologist for slavery and you are stating that the US Constitution is irrational. Okay, Num, if you want this, then I guess I'll have to give it to you.

Correct. It annoys me that someone, at this day and age, has no firm hold of his reasoning faculty.

Not sure what you mean by this drivel, I'm not the one arguing vague religious-sounding dogma in an attempt to abrogate the US Constitution.

I don't expect a liar to employ critical thought on himself anymore than a bigot admit his bigotry.

Look up the Dred Scott case before the US Supreme Court and see what the Justices said about the lack of rights of black people.

And what is the function of the supreme court, anyways - to fashion laws or to interpret them, hmmm?

Can the court interpret an irrational law rationally without encroaching the function of a co-equal branch of government? Do yourself a favor and go take a high school civics class.

What has this got to do with anything?

Everything.

Basically you are arguing that the end justified the means.

Of course! Where else does one find the justification for an action?? What ignorant nonsense!

However, a subjective end may not subvert an objective end. Just so you wouldn't mistake my statement in form and substance - as you are inclined to do with such naive fervor.

Slavery was legal, and practiced in this country for more than a century. You may excuse the slavers if you wish, but from the perspective of the hundreds of thousands of black people who died I doubt that your excuses will carry much weight.

Slavery is unconstitutional from the very beginning - if you are to go on the principles on which the constitution was founded on. Consequently, any law based on slavery was and is defective. Surely, when confronted by a defective law, any political association is obliged to correct its defects - hence the american civil war.

No one is rendering validity to slavery, except you.

Anyone being an apologist for slavery is on the wrong side of the discussion. Slavery is the second worst crime of the American people.

What nonsense! It is not my habit to apologize for the operation of facts and logic. However, it appears that you are.

You are correct when you say that slavery is repugnant and that it contradicts the principles embodied in the Constitution. (Scary isn't it when we agree on something?) Any time one group of people is singled out for "legal discrimination" it contradicts the principles of the Constitution, doesn't it?

No. Discrimination happens when there is an ARBITRARY LAW - that is, a law NOT BASED ON FACTUAL NOR LOGICAL PRINCIPLES.

When women were not allowed to own property?

Arbitrary.

When women were not allowed to vote?

Arbitrary.

When black people were enslaved?

Arbitrary.

When black people were denied full citizenship?

Arbitrary.

When homosexual people are denied full citizenship?

LMAO. Care to explain such an assertion?

This is my favorite paragraph in your post, Num, I saved it for last. The best rational basis for giving homosexual people equal rights is the US Constitution which guarantees EVERYBODY equal rights. That seems pretty rational to me. It seems pretty rational for a gay guy staying at home to care for his adopted children to be given the same rights as any other stay-at-home Dad. His children should enjoy the same legal protections and privileges as any other child.

This here, is defective logic which you are not inclined to correct.

The rights of a mother arises from being a mother in the same way that the rights of a child arises from being a child in the same way that the rights of a human being arises from being human. It is the height of ignorance to apply one right to another state of being ARBITRARILY.

And just for the record - ADOPTION IS A PRIVILEGE, the determination of which is RESERVED for the state, pending the child's status relative to parenthood.

Understand?

The whole idea of the US Constitution is equality. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, equal protection under the law, no one above the law, no one below the law. Seems pretty rational to me. And you?

Correct. Why then can you not apply it rationally, hmmm?

[Mare Tranquillity]

Well, Num, I think the law of diminishing returns has kicked in. You are not convincing me with your defense of slavery and your hatred of gay men, nor does your desire to continue abrogating the US Constitution on the basis of your personal opinion sway my thinking. Any way we slice it I think you are an angry but intelligent bigot. (Feel free to call me all those nasty names that you have used so frequently--the only disappointment for me is that you didn't come up with any new ones, Hell, my own brothers call me worse things than you did.) Any how...

Perhaps a summation would be in order now that we've both had a chance to post our thoughts a few times.

My position remains that the US Constitution guarantees all consenting adults equal protection under the law--not just the majority, every consenting adult should receive the same treatment under the law. THAT is how it should be.

I'm curious though about what you think would happen if gay men were allowed to marry (you never speak about lesbians so I suppose you can't make them fit into your scenario for some obscure reason). Answer me this if you can: Pretend (I know you're good at pretending) that every single gay guy on Earth got married. Now all of them are living in tiny cottages with tea roses around the front gate. What happens now? Will all heterosexual fecundity disappear? Will you no longer be able to achieve an erection? Will women no longer be fertile? What do you see happening? Cataclysm? End of the world stuff? Why are you so afraid?

My guess is that what will happen is what has happened in the countries that already have gay marriage: Nothing. Nothing has happened, some gays got married, most didn't, men can still get hard-ons, women can still have children. You have been hysterical about FECUNDITY so what do you think will happen to it?

I'm for equal rights for all, nothing for the Nums of the world that others don't get and nothing for others that the Nums don't get. White, black, brown, yellow, blue, straight, gay, tall, short, hairy, or bald, we all get the same legal rights as everyone else.

What about you? Can you sum up succinctly, cogently, and without a lot of bolds and underlines?

[numinus]

Well, Num, I think the law of diminishing returns has kicked in. You are not convincing me with your defense of slavery and your hatred of gay men, nor does your desire to continue abrogating the US Constitution on the basis of your personal opinion sway my thinking. Any way we slice it I think you are an angry but intelligent bigot. (Feel free to call me all those nasty names that you have used so frequently--the only disappointment for me is that you didn't come up with any new ones, Hell, my own brothers call me worse things than you did.) Any how...

LOL

Why would I give new arguments if you haven't even begun to scratch the one's I have presented much less refuted them, hmmm?

Perhaps a summation would be in order now that we've both had a chance to post our thoughts a few times.

As if my posts aren't clear enough, you need a summary to further misrepresent?

Human rights are INHERENT in the human person. It is NOT given by law or civil society. And so there are laws made to address a specific right and so on. Marital laws are there to protect the RIGHT OF MOTHERHOOD AND THE RIGHTS OF CHILDREN. They are the basis of family (and the family relations consequent to it) which IS the fundamental unit of society. It has always been like that, and from the un declarations, should remain like that.

Marriage is NOT merely a contract between two consenting adults. A contract, in its widest meaning is a 'meeting of minds'. Everyone may enter into contract with anyone, by consent ALONE. The terms of the contract determined by the consenting parties ALONE, and binds the consenting parties ALONE.

A marriage, on the other hand, as an institution meant to uphold the right to motherhood and the rights of children, involves persons (children) who never consented, who are incapable of consent, and utterly dependent on the family they are born in.

My position remains that the US Constitution guarantees all consenting adults equal protection under the law--not just the majority, every consenting adult should receive the same treatment under the law. THAT is how it should be.

The good thing about the law is that it does not suffer the idiocy of dishonest people pushing for a ridiculous agenda.

From the above explanation, a homosexual union does not meet the FORM AND SUBSTANCE of a marriage - hence a marriage of homosexuals is superfluous and an utter waste of the state's time and efforts. The ends for which homosexuals want to live their particular lifestyles are amply covered by the laws on contracts. Your alleged 4000+ privileges accorded to married couples are those that pertain to motherhood and children - aspects that are ABSENT in a homosexual union.

I'm curious though about what you think would happen if gay men were allowed to marry (you never speak about lesbians so I suppose you can't make them fit into your scenario for some obscure reason).

Lesbians may exercise their choice to get pregnant, thanks to the advances of science and regardless of the sexual choices she makes. However, the family relations that result from marriage - more specifically, fatherhood, cannot be assumed to apply to her partner. To assume such a thing violates the right of the child.

Answer me this if you can: Pretend (I know you're good at pretending) that every single gay guy on Earth got married. Now all of them are living in tiny cottages with tea roses around the front gate. What happens now? Will all heterosexual fecundity disappear? Will you no longer be able to achieve an erection? Will women no longer be fertile? What do you see happening? Cataclysm? End of the world stuff? Why are you so afraid?

What are you talking about?????

I don't give a rat's ass how another person lives his life. What I am concerned are the logical consequences of an irrational law. The thing about the law is that it is dependent on precedents to guide it. An irrational law will only produce more irrational precedents until such time that such irrationality becomes so glaring, it causes a legal crisis of monumental proportions.

You want an example of this? Slavery for one. It was an economic necessity and a political expediency at the time, nobody bothered to worry about its moral consequences and rational validity. And so, it took a civil war to correct and generations of embedded and calcified prejudice.

And here you are, asking for the same irrational law, with no more justification than it would make a minority feel happy about the choice they make.

My guess is that what will happen is what has happened in the countries that already have gay marriage: Nothing. Nothing has happened, some gays got married, most didn't, men can still get hard-ons, women can still have children. You have been hysterical about FECUNDITY so what do you think will happen to it?

The scenario you are depicting isn't dependent on the marital institution. A lot of gay men would have sore behinds, with or without gay marriages.

I'm for equal rights for all, nothing for the Nums of the world that others don't get and nothing for others that the Nums don't get. White, black, brown, yellow, blue, straight, gay, tall, short, hairy, or bald, we all get the same legal rights as everyone else.

I don't even know why I need to dignify this statement since you haven't given a right denied to homosexuals to begin with.

And as far as rights go, they do not come from the choices we make. Just because someone prefers sex in a certain way doesn't give him the right to motherhood, nor does his choice subvert the right of a child.

What about you? Can you sum up succinctly, cogently, and without a lot of bolds and underlines?

You haven't answered a single point in my argument and you have the temerity to ask me this. What ineffable nonsense!

Does a homosexual man have the right to motherhood, as defined in the various un declarations?

Isn't the right of access, co-ownership, inheritance/estate, etc. obtainable through other legal instruments, affidavits or statements?

Is there a right to adopt?

Is there any compelling reason why the state is obliged to attach a legal impetus to an otherwise unhealthy and hazardous sexual choice?

Isn't your freedom to choose this lifestyle enough, you have to obtain the government's stamp of approval through a particular law that has no basis, whatsoever?

You didn't answer before, you wouldn't answer now - except through some more idiotic rhetoric that is irrelevant to the question.

[invest07]

Many of you doubt the veracity of the Bible and dismiss Bible prophecies. vyo posts cartoons and he/she is not the only source of ridicule. But are you really aware of how detailed certain of these prophecies are and how precisely they were fulfilled?

Daniel lived in the Jewish nation of Judea which was conquered by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar who ruled from 605 BC to 562 BC. The kingdom of Babylon was the predominant world power by 586 BC. Nebuchadnezzar enlisted the most promising young men from Judah into his service. Daniel was one of those enlisted. Nebuchadneezzar’s grandson, Belshazzar was made co-ruler of Babylon in 553 BC. The following is taken from the book of Daniel Chapter 7, New International Version:

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.
3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!'
6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

King Nebuchadnezzar used a lion as a symbol of his empire. The lion was used for the King‘s official seals. The first beast represents the Babylonian Empire..

King Cyrus conquered the Medes and united the two tribes into the Medo-Persian Empire. The official symbol of the Medo-Persians was a bear. The Medo-Persian Empire conquered Babylon in 539BC.

Notice that the first beast is given the heart of a man. Nebuchadnezzar suffered from severe bouts of depression and eventually suffered a complete mental breakdown. Historians conclude that Neb’s mental problems led to the diminishment of Babylonian power and increased vulnerability to attack.

The second beast is a lopsided bear, as the Medes and Persians vie for power and influence among themselves. The Medes-Persians used a bear for their official seals. The 3 ribs in the beast’s mouth are 3 important conquests:

Lydia
Babylon
Egypt

The third beast represents Alexander. He rapidly conquered the Mediterranean world as far east as India in 10 years. A jaguar is a deadly animal that moves swiftly. It would move even swifter with wings. The four heads represent the eventual division of Alexander’s empire by 4 of his generals. Alexander died in 323 BC and four of his generals, Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucis and Ptolemy divided his empire. These four empires would be absorbed or conquered by the Romans.

The fourth beast represents the Roman Empire. The Roman Republic ended in 43 BC when Julius Ceasar was proclaimed absolute emperor. The Romans were the most invincible and blood thirsty of all the beasts. It has been documented that the Romans would slaughter entire populations for rebellion. They made extensive use of crucifixion and tortured insurgents publicly. The ten horns are a reference to 10 world powers that will arise during the end Times.
.
Daniel’s prophecy occurred during Belshazzar’s first year, about 552 BC. This was 13 years before the Medo-Persian conquest, 200 years before Alexander was born and 509 years before the first Ceasar was crowned.

Daniel’s prophecy has been extensively studied by secular scholars through the years and the date of authorship has withstood multiple studies.

Daniel’s prophecy, which was fulfilled in incredible detail, was just one of hundred’s of Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled. The prophecies of the Bible may seem strange to us in 2007 AD however when considered in their contextual time, they make perfect sense.
The ultimate test of a prophecy is whether or not the predicted events actually happen and as predicted. The Bible is full of these prophecies and uis reliable. If past prophecies of the Bible have been reliable, why wouldn’t prophecies that deal with future events also be reliable?

More on Daniel to follow.





.

[vyo476]

Many of you doubt the veracity of the Bible and dismiss Bible prophecies. vyo posts cartoons and he/she is not the only source of ridicule. But are you really aware of how detailed certain of these prophecies are and how precisely they were fulfilled?

Daniel lived in the Jewish nation of Judea which was conquered by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar who ruled from 605 BC to 562 BC. The kingdom of Babylon was the predominant world power by 586 BC. Nebuchadnezzar enlisted the most promising young men from Judah into his service. Daniel was one of those enlisted. Nebuchadneezzar’s grandson, Belshazzar was made co-ruler of Babylon in 553 BC. The following is taken from the book of Daniel Chapter 7, New International Version:

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.
3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!'
6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

King Nebuchadnezzar used a lion as a symbol of his empire. The lion was used for the King‘s official seals. The first beast represents the Babylonian Empire..

King Cyrus conquered the Medes and united the two tribes into the Medo-Persian Empire. The official symbol of the Medo-Persians was a bear. The Medo-Persian Empire conquered Babylon in 539BC.

Notice that the first beast is given the heart of a man. Nebuchadnezzar suffered from severe bouts of depression and eventually suffered a complete mental breakdown. Historians conclude that Neb’s mental problems led to the diminishment of Babylonian power and increased vulnerability to attack.

The second beast is a lopsided bear, as the Medes and Persians vie for power and influence among themselves. The Medes-Persians used a bear for their official seals. The 3 ribs in the beast’s mouth are 3 important conquests:

Lydia
Babylon
Egypt

The third beast represents Alexander. He rapidly conquered the Mediterranean world as far east as India in 10 years. A jaguar is a deadly animal that moves swiftly. It would move even swifter with wings. The four heads represent the eventual division of Alexander’s empire by 4 of his generals. Alexander died in 323 BC and four of his generals, Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucis and Ptolemy divided his empire. These four empires would be absorbed or conquered by the Romans.

The fourth beast represents the Roman Empire. The Roman Republic ended in 43 BC when Julius Ceasar was proclaimed absolute emperor. The Romans were the most invincible and blood thirsty of all the beasts. It has been documented that the Romans would slaughter entire populations for rebellion. They made extensive use of crucifixion and tortured insurgents publicly. The ten horns are a reference to 10 world powers that will arise during the end Times.
.
Daniel’s prophecy occurred during Belshazzar’s first year, about 552 BC. This was 13 years before the Medo-Persian conquest, 200 years before Alexander was born and 509 years before the first Ceasar was crowned.

Daniel’s prophecy has been extensively studied by secular scholars through the years and the date of authorship has withstood multiple studies.

Daniel’s prophecy, which was fulfilled in incredible detail, was just one of hundred’s of Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled. The prophecies of the Bible may seem strange to us in 2007 AD however when considered in their contextual time, they make perfect sense.
The ultimate test of a prophecy is whether or not the predicted events actually happen and as predicted. The Bible is full of these prophecies and uis reliable. If past prophecies of the Bible have been reliable, why wouldn’t prophecies that deal with future events also be reliable?

More on Daniel to follow.

What you have is a marvelous interpretation. But in the end that's all it is - interpretation. Look at how you arrived at your conclusions - you had to look for events that fit the prophecies, didn't you? If these prophecies were so air tight, wouldn't it simply have been a matter of citing specific events rather than locating historical events that fit his descriptions?

I don't have time now but later I'll go looking and see if there are any other events that can be interpreted to fit Daniel's prophecies. We'll see.

[vyo476]

One quick alternate interpreation before I go to class.

On your jaguar interpretation - it could just as easily apply to Hitler. Hitler's Germany employed the blitzkrieg strategy - a lightning fast attack that helped them conquer much of Europe. After the war was over Germany was initially divided four ways - between the US, Britain, France, and the USSR. This interpretation uses the same logic as yours does. Was Daniel describing two separate historical events with some similarities? Or was what he said vague enough to be applied to a variety of situtaions?

[invest07]

vyo

Your point about Nazi Germany is interesting but not likely given the context of the prophecy.

The beasts appeared in a certain order. Alexander the Great fits into the proper sequence and Nazi Germany does not.

And you are correct when you say that the dream represents interpretation. But you need to consider the historical context of the Middle East in the 5th century BC. The symbolism of the beasts would be readily apparent to any Babylonian or Jew living during this time.

I didn't look for events that fit. None of these interpretations are original on my part. Some of these interpretations have been discussed in the Talmud, by historians such as Josephus, and the original church scholars from the 2cd and 3rd centuries AD. There is a great deal of literature written analyzing this prophecy, over the past 2,000 or so years. The following list is of various writings on this prophecy:

2nd - 3rd Century--Irenaeus
5th Century--Augustine
7th Century--Andreas; Sargis d'Abergia
8th Century--Venerable Bede
8th - 9th Century--Eliezer * [* Jewish expositors]
9th Century--Berengaud
10th Century--Japet Ibn Ali *; Saadia *
12th Century--Rashi *; Abraham Ibn Ezra *; Peter Comestor
13th Century--Joachim of Fiore; Thomas Aquinas
14th Century--John Wycliffe; Walter Brute
16th Century--Martin Luther; Johann Oecolampadius; Philipp Melanchthon; George Joye; Hugh Latimer; Virgil Solis; Nikolaus Selinecker
17th Century--George Downham; Thomas Brightman; Joseph Mede; John Tillinghast; Henry More; William Sherwin; Thomas Beverley
18th Century--Johannes Cocceius; Heinrich Horch; Sir Issac Newton; John Willison; Thomas Newton; Hans Wood; Pierre Jurieu; Christian G. Thube; James Bicheno; Uzal Ogden; Edward King; Jeremy Belknap; Jno. H. Livingstone
19th Century--Jean G. de la Flechere; Benj. Farnham; Eliphaiet Nott; Asa McFarland; John King; John Rameyn; Elias Smith; William Miller; Jedediah Morse; Ethan Smith; William C. Davis; Timothy Dwight; Edw. D. Griffin; Aaron Kinne; Elias Boudinot; Amzi Armstrong; Robert Reid; T. R. Robertson; Joshua L. Wilson; Sam'l M. McCorkle; Alex. Campbell; Robt. Scott; Adam H. Burwell; A.L. Crandall; Rich. C. Shimeall; Edward Winthrop; Elias A. Burdick[3]
Source for this list was wikipedia

You have to admit the prophecy does draw striking correlations with actual events.

And what is wrong with interpretation? The entire theory of Macroevolution is based on interpretation. The true question to ask is whether or not the interpretation is reasonable, defensible and factually based. You may chose to reject the interpretation but that does not make the interpretation any more or less defensible.

I'm not certain about any of this and I have said this more than once in this forum. Daniel's dream is subject to inerpretation but the facts detailed in the dream are highly symbolic of very specific events, they are fairly detailed, and they occurred in precisely the manner and order prophecied. Coincidence? Maybe, but how can you be sure?

One standard in science used to judge the integrity of a theory is it's ability to make accurate predictions. If the prediction jives with observed subsequent events, the chance that this is the result of coincidence is greatly reduced.

[vyo476]

vyo

Your point about Nazi Germany is interesting but not likely given the context of the prophecy.

The beasts appeared in a certain order. Alexander the Great fits into the proper sequence and Nazi Germany does not.

That's only if you adhere to all your original interpretations. The final beast could refer to the Soviet Union.

Large iron teeth = Most tanks of any army in the world.

Different from all former beasts = Regardless the result, communism was a very "modern" ideology.

As for the ten horns, there is some trouble explaining them. It could refer to the diameter of the Soviet Union (roughly estimated at ten thousand kilometers).

Or perhaps your final beast refers to Israel.

It's no secret that Israel tends to do well in war ("terrifying and frightening and very powerful"). They have an exceptionally modern army ("large iron teeth") and they have continusouly absorbed other territories as a consequence of war ("crushed and devoured its victims"). A well-armed, defensive Jewish state is certainly a new thing to the world after centuries without a home and with no means of defense against discrimination ("It was different from all the former beasts"). Once again that ten horn reference is a bit of a problem, but tens can be found - when you combine the 6 Israeli administrative districts (Central, Haifa, Jerusalem, Northern, Southern, and Tel Aviv) with their four occupied territories (the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights) you can see that Israel's territory is divided ten ways ("it had ten horns").

I think that both the USSR and Israel can be made to fit this part of the prophecy displays the prophecy's moral ambiguity. Or do you look at the USSR and Israel as being moral equals?

[Mare Tranquillity]

LOLWhy would I give new arguments if you haven't even begun to scratch the one's I have presented much less refuted them, hmmm?As if my posts aren't clear enough, you need a summary to further misrepresent?Human rights are INHERENT in the human person. It is NOT given by law or civil society. And so there are laws made to address a specific right and so on. Marital laws are there to protect the RIGHT OF MOTHERHOOD AND THE RIGHTS OF CHILDREN. They are the basis of family (and the family relations consequent to it) whichIS the fundamental unit of society. It has always been like that, and from the un declarations, should remain like that.Marriage is NOT merely a contract between two consenting adults. A contract, in its widest meaning is a 'meeting of minds'. Everyone may enter into contract with anyone, by consent ALONE. The terms of the contract determined by the consenting parties ALONE, and binds the consenting parties ALONE.A marriage, on the other hand, as an institution meant to uphold the right to motherhood and the rights of children, involves persons (children) who never consented, who are incapable of consent, and utterly dependent on the family they are born in.The good thing about the law is that it does not suffer the idiocy of dishonest people pushing for a ridiculous agenda.From the above explanation, a homosexual union does not meet theFORM AND SUBSTANCEof a marriage - hence a marriage of homosexuals is superfluous and an utter waste of the state's time and efforts. The ends for which homosexuals want to live their particular lifestyles are amply covered by the laws on contracts. Your alleged 4000+ privileges accorded to married couples are those that pertain to motherhood and children - aspects that are ABSENT in a homosexual union.Lesbians may exercise their choice to get pregnant, thanks to the advances of science and regardless of the sexual choices she makes. However, the family relations that result from marriage - more specifically, fatherhood, cannot be assumed to apply to her partner. To assume such a thing violates the right of the child.What are you talking about?????I don't give a rat's ass how another person lives his life. What I am concerned are the logical consequences of an irrational law. The thing about the law is that it is dependent on precedents to guide it. An irrational law will only produce more irrational precedents until such time that such irrationality becomes so glaring, it causes a legal crisis of monumental proportions.You want an example of this? Slavery for one. It was an conomic necessity and a political expediency at the time, nobody bothered to worry about its moral consequences and rational validity. And so, it took a civil war to correct and generations of embedded and calcified prejudice.And here you are, asking for the same irrational law, with no more justification than itwould make a minority feel happy about the choice they make.The scenario you are depicting isn't dependent on the marital institution. A lot of gay men would have sore behinds, with or without gay marriages.I don't even know why I need to dignify this statement since you haven't given a right denied to omosexuals to begin with.And as far as rights go, they do not come from the choices we make. Just because someone prefers sex in a certain way doesn't give him the right to motherhood, nor does his choice subvert the right of a child.You haven't answered a single point in my argument and you have the temerity to ask me this. What ineffable nonsense!Does a homosexual man have the right to motherhood, as defined in the various un declarations?
Isn't the right of access, co-ownership, inheritance/estate, etc. obtainable through other legal instruments, affidavits or statements?Is there a right to adopt?Is there any compelling reason why the state is obliged to attach a legal impetus to an otherwise unhealthy and hazardous sexual choice?Isn't your freedom to choose this lifestyle enough, you have to obtainthegovernment's stamp of approval through a particular law that has no basis, whatsoever?You didn't answer before, you wouldn't answer now - except through some more idiotic rhetoric that is irrelevant to the question.

I see. It wasn't 4000, Num, it was 1049, you're so angry you can't even read, so how could you hold a conversation?

Adios Tonto... and the anger you rode in with.

[Mare Tranquillity]

Many of you doubt the veracity of the Bible and dismiss Bible prophecies. vyo posts cartoons and he/she is not the only source of ridicule. But are you really aware of how detailed certain of these prophecies are and how precisely they were fulfilled?

Your whole premise would be more believable had not other Christians, who were just as devout and convinced as you are, seen the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies in other times and other ways. Christians have been seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies since Biblical times. With two thousand years of history to look back on it would nearly impossible NOT to find ways to declare the prophecies fulfilled.

You want an interesting prophecy? Nostradamus predicted that a Frenchman would be the first man to fly and he even spelled Montgolfier's name correctly more than 300 years before Montgolfier flew in his hot-air balloon. Show me a prediction from the Bible that is that accurate, not something vague.

[numinus]

I see. It wasn't 4000, Num, it was 1049, you're so angry you can't even read, so how could you hold a conversation?

Adios Tonto... and the anger you rode in with.

Glad to see you finally concede at last.

Bull**** is finite, after all!

[Mare Tranquillity]

Glad to see you finally concede at last.

Bull**** is finite, after all!

Profanity is often a sign of anger.

[numinus]

Profanity is often a sign of anger.

Or a sign of amused ridicule.

[invest07]

"Your whole premise would be more believable had not other Christians, who were just as devout and convinced as you are, seen the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies in other times and other ways. Christians have been seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies since Biblical times. With two thousand years of history to look back on it would nearly impossible NOT to find ways to declare the prophecies fulfilled."

It is true that other generation of Christians have looked at the same prophecies and wondered would End Times occur within their lifetimes. In NONE of those previous generations did Jews exist as a political state. Until 1948, Jews were citizens of other countries. The establishment of Israel was a critical event in End Times prophecy. During past generations, Christians looked toward the stablishment of some sort of Jewish state, perhaps within their lifetime, realizing a Jewish state was a requirement of End Times.

As to Nostradamus, the exact wording of this prediction follows:

"When a [French] army shall go from Mont Gaulfier to the Aventine,
There will be a man advising them from under the hole.
The booty shall be seized between the two rocks,
And the glory of the sixth celibate shall wither."

If you say this predicts the first flight, we will take your word for that. I don't see any reference to a flight or to a person name Montgolfier. And this sounds way more cryptic than Daniel's prophecy.

Nostradamus also predicted that the human race would not be destroyed and would experience peace from 1713 forward.

The only reliable source of prophecy is the Bible.

[invest07]

The Bible, when interpreted properly, is a source of information that has been many generations ahead of it’s time.

Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

The Bible clearly says that the human body is composed of the same elements as the earth. And, upon death, our bodies will return to an elemental state.

These verses were authored by Moses circa 1450 BC. These verses was laughed at by the secular scientific community until the 1800’s. By 1869, there were 63 elements discovered. As the number of elements grew, scientists began to recognize certain patterns in properties and began to develop classification schemes. The result of this was the Periodic Table. The development of the Periodic Table was significant in that it defined known elements and the idea that all matter was composed of these elements (or a combination) began to take hold in the mind of scientists.

Genesis 2:7 and 3:19 were written over 3,000 years before the Periodic table was developed.

These 2 verses are prophetic of a scientific concept which we now accept without question. And the Bible said it 3,000 years before science did..

[vyo476]

Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

This is most likely a description of decomposition, something perfectly observeable in nature. Someone died, they stuck his body in the ground, and then a while later they went back and checked on it (for whatever reason) only to discover that it had rotted away. So they observed this, and then drew an Aristotelian conclusion.

I did a little background reading and the word "dust" could also potentially mean "earth" or "dirt" (because of the origianal Hebrew word used, "`âfâr"). At least that settles what type of "dust" we're talking about (although I doubt domestic dust had such a big role in the Bible).

The Bible clearly says that the human body is composed of the same elements as the earth. And, upon death, our bodies will return to an elemental state.

The word "element" is not even used in the passage. This does not constitute "clarity." In fact, the passage has nothing to do with what the dust itself is made of. It just says, "you're made of dust." Not, "you and dust are made of the same stuff."

These verses were authored by Moses circa 1450 BC. These verses was laughed at by the secular scientific community until the 1800’s. By 1869, there were 63 elements discovered. As the number of elements grew, scientists began to recognize certain patterns in properties and began to develop classification schemes. The result of this was the Periodic Table. The development of the Periodic Table was significant in that it defined known elements and the idea that all matter was composed of these elements (or a combination) began to take hold in the mind of scientists.

Yeah, the Periodic Table was formed...and we're still not made of dust. Look, here's a list of the elements that comprise the human body:

http://web2.airmail.net/uthman/elements_of_body.html

Find me a soil that contains all those elements and then we'll talk. You might find that difficult:

The elemental composition of soil varies over a wide range, permitting only a few general statements to be made. Those soils that contain less than 12–20% organic carbon are termed mineral. All other soils are termed organic. Carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, phosphorus, and sulfur are the most important constituents of organic soils and of soil organic matter in general. Carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen are most abundant; the content of nitrogen is often about one-tenth that of carbon, while the content of phosphorus or sulfur is usually less than one-fifth that of nitrogen.

Besides oxygen, the most abundant elements found in mineral soils are silicon, aluminum, and iron. The distribution of chemical elements will vary considerably from soil to soil and, in general, will be different in a specific soil from the distribution of elements in the crustal rocks of the Earth. The most important micro or trace elements in soil are boron, copper, manganese, molybdenum, and zinc, since these elements are essential in the nutrition of green plants. Also important are cobalt, selenium, cadmium, and nickel.

http://www.answers.com/topic/soil-chemistry?cat=technology

Notice that while the carbon-nitrogen ratio is more or less accurate for humanity, the nitrogen-phosphorus/nitrogen-sulfur ratio is all wrong. As organic materials, soil and humanity share a number of similarities, but people aren't made out of dirt. We're made out of some of the same stuff - but not all. And God didn't say, "From dust you came (as well as large amounts of potassium, calcium, and chlorine, which came from somewhere else)."

[invest07]

The Water Cycle

Job 26:7
He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.
Job 36:27-29
He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.

There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a specific and understandable way. The water cycle was studied and finally documented by scientists about 300 years ago. The relationship of steam and evaporated water was not fully understood until concepts of the 3 states of matter became established. Why clouds held water for a period of time and then released it (in the form of rain, snow, hail or sleet) was a matter for speculation until about 1900.

The Bible beat science to the truth by over 3500 years.

[9sublime]

There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a specific and understandable way. The water cycle was studied and finally documented by scientists about 300 years ago. The relationship of steam and evaporated water was not fully understood until concepts of the 3 states of matter became established. Why clouds held water for a period of time and then released it (in the form of rain, snow, hail or sleet) was a matter for speculation until about 1900.

The Bible