Obama; The New "McGovern"?

[Mr. Shaman]

(Don't get too overly-excited, Obama-fans. Many of us have seen this movie, before....and, your guy's got a loooooong political-career, ahead-of-him.)

*

"For Democrats of a certain age, there is no figure more haunting than George McGovern, who ran for president pleading, "Come home, America," but instead was sent home himself with just 38 percent of the vote.

Among those who worry that the lessons of 1972 (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0707/4848.html) may still spell trouble for Democrats in 2008 is none other than … George McGovern. He is 84 now, is as opposed to the Iraq war as he was to the one in Vietnam -- and is paying close attention to the race for president.

"I'm not sure that an anti-war Democrat can win," McGovern said in an interview. "We haven't proved that yet."

"Some people point to the fact that the war in Vietnam was dreadfully unpopular," he said, "but that when I came out for an immediate withdrawal, it helped me win the nomination but not the general election. And there may be some truth about that."

But some political analysts say they believe the McGovern experience could be repeated again, as the party's presidential candidates compete to win the favor of anti-war Democrats while leaving themselves vulnerable to charges of weakness in a general election.

Among top-tier Democrats, it is Clinton's maneuvering on Iraq that has drawn the most attention -- and the most criticism -- from people on both sides who see calculation rather than principle guiding her.

In the past year, she has advocated stances she once opposed, both on a set timetable for withdrawal and in utilizing the "power of the purse" to end the war in Iraq. But last month, at a Take Back America conference of liberal activists, she offended some by treading a careful rhetorical line.

"The American military has succeeded," Clinton declared. "It is the Iraqi government that has failed."

That drew boos from the hall. Clinton's rhetoric seemed "almost calculated to draw a negative response" before the liberal audience, observed David Gergen, who has served in four presidential administrations. "That's a very confident campaign (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=240861)," he added."

[bewitched]

Obama the Manchurian Candidate.

[Mr. Shaman]

Obama the Manchurian Candidate.
Nahhhhhhhhhhhh......he's merely the next, new trendy person (to vote-for), for today's 20-something (spawn of ReRon Reagan's family-values), robotoids; history-challenged, but still feeling relevant. :rolleyes:

[Popeye]

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh......he's merely the next, new trendy person (to vote-for), for today's 20-something (spawn of ReRon Reagan's family-values), robotoids; history-challenged, but still feeling relevant. :rolleyes:

Obama is a lot closer to the new Kennedy, in the way he carries himself, and his voter appeal.

[bewitched]

Obama is a lot closer to the new Kennedy, in the way he carries himself, and his voter appeal.

both Kennedy's were assassinated.

[Popeye]

both Kennedy's were assassinated.

How is that relevant? I'm referring to John f. Kennedy.

[top gun]

both Kennedy's were assassinated.

That's true... but they stood up for some very important things along the way. You can't let the fear of some crazy redneck rule your life.

You know the old saying... Whether you think you can or think you can't... you're right! I don't know but I'm pretty sure he thinks he can!!!

[Popeye]

That's true... but they stood up for some very important things along the way. You can't let the fear of some crazy redneck rule your life.

You know the old saying... Whether you think you can or think you can't... you're right! I don't know but I'm pretty sure he thinks he can!!!

Lets not forget, Robert Kennedy would have been elected president if hadn't have been killed.

[bewitched]

Obama's religious background is dangerous for this day and age.

[Popeye]

Obama's religious background is dangerous for this day and age.

In what way? The fact that he attended a Muslim school as a child is irrelevant. Anyway, he's now a full fledged Christian, he passes the foolish religious litmus test for being president.

[bewitched]

In what way? The fact that he attended a Muslim school as a child is irrelevant. Anyway, he's now a full fledged Christian, he passes the foolish religious litmus test for being president.

he's a faux Christian going to a controversial church...
his father is a Kenyan Muslim, and his mother is Indonesian. he has an upbringing that is strongly Islamic. that doesn't disappear.

if he wasn't a Christian he would have never become a Senator.

[Popeye]

he's a faux Christian going to a controversial church...
his father is a Kenyan Muslim, and his mother is Indonesian. he has an upbringing that is strongly Islamic. that doesn't disappear.

if he wasn't a Christian he would have never become a Senator.

So what? What exactly are you implying? C'mon now, come right out and say it.

[bewitched]

So what? What exactly are you implying? C'mon now, come right out and say it.

I think I was rather clear.
he's a faux Christian. his Islamic background is apparent in his deliberate actions in not recognizing idols, when he didn't cover his heart with his hand during the national anthem and wearing a flag lapel pin.

most people who don't know Islamic tradition and culture would never know the difference, most Americans think he's a black man and Oprah's friend.
he's not. he's multicultural. so why is he hiding that?

[Popeye]

I think I was rather clear.
he's a faux Christian. his Islamic background is apparent in his deliberate actions in not recognizing idols, when he didn't cover his heart with his hand during the national anthem and wearing a flag lapel pin. So what? Only the right wing cares about such nationalistic nonsense. He demonstrates an independence not apparent in many of the other candidates. That should be commended, not condemned.

most people who don't know Islamic tradition and culture would never know the difference, most Americans think he's a black man and Oprah's friend.
he's not. he's multicultural. so why is he hiding that?

He's not hiding it. That's why religious bigots have jumped on it.

[bewitched]

So what? Only the right wing cares about such nationalistic nonsense. He demonstrates an independence not apparent in many of the other candidates. That should be commended, not condemned.

He's not hiding it. That's why religious bigots have jumped on it.

oh yeah, getting Oprah to represent him as a black man wasn't too much misinformation to the average American, ha.

I could care less what color he is, but I do care that he is related by closer degrees than other candidates to an enemy of the US which is Islam.

[Popeye]

oh yeah, getting Oprah to represent him as a black man wasn't too much misinformation to the average American, ha. Oprah's a private citizen, she can endorse who she wants. She's hardly the first celebrity to support a presidential candidate.

I could care less what color he is, but I do care that he is related by closer degrees than other candidates to an enemy of the US which is Islam. So he went to a Muslim school as a child. That doesn't make him a member of Al Qaeda. You're making it sound like he has some kind of secret agenda. Give me a break, you're demonstrating both fear and paranoia again.

[bewitched]

Oprah's a private citizen, she can endorse who she wants. She's hardly the first celebrity to support a presidential candidate.

So he went to a Muslim school as a child. That doesn't make him a member of Al Qaeda. You're making it sound like he has some kind of secret agenda. Give me a break, you're demonstrating both fear and paranoia again.

fear and paranoia. yeah... good diagnosis. whatever. you can stop that name calling nonsense anytime now.

do you know what a madrassass is? it's not the same as other general educational schools, it is a religious school for boys.
and yes, there is a Muslim brotherhood that is created at birth that does not disappear. so if we were to have a president who was sympathetic to Islamic and AQ theology (one in the same) then it is an issue.
and so much of an issue that is is going on the defense about it.
why would he be defensive about such an innocent thing?

[9sublime]

Well, you have successfully shown your ignorance on the subject by saying that Islamic theology is one and the same to AQ's theology. This error alone means that your argument is completley incorrect and based on a foundation of lies, and there is little debating to be done in such a situation.

[bewitched]

Well, you have successfully shown your ignorance on the subject by saying that Islamic theology is one and the same to AQ's theology. This error alone means that your argument is completley incorrect and based on a foundation of lies, and there is little debating to be done in such a situation.

AQ is an Islamic organization. their theology is Islamic. same as the Muslim Brotherhood and other Quranic followers.
this is a simple fact that most people don't understand.

[9sublime]

So, Catholic theology is identical to Protestant theology, simply because they are both followers of Juedo-Christianity?

[bewitched]

So, Catholic theology is identical to Protestant theology, simply because they are both followers of Juedo-Christianity?

Christianity is not the same as Islam.
the main reason is because 57 OIC countries are run by religious law, and it's quite primitive. so daily life in Islam is dominated by strict rules of prayer, dress, governence of personal spending, fraternal oversight, and most of every move a person makes in a day. so the relationship to Allah is clearly defined and enforced by the governments of Islam.
theology is an organized body, in Islam that is the civil government.

but the importance of understanding that AQ, the Muslim Brotherhood and 57 OIC countries share the same theology is that in the event of a confrontation (911) then the entire organized body (of Islam) shares the same procedure, views, brotherhood in Islam.

if you can get past that understanding then you can see clearly the organization of an effort against the West that is growing in numbers (500,000 in Gaza City yesterday, 10000 acts of Islamic terrorism post 911, plenty more examples daily) and understand the threat against us.
this body is very big. this body is condensed into a tight organization moreso than the theology of Juedo-Christian (if you must). looking at that from a military, security, defensive point of view will give you insight to what the planners in our government are faced with.

now, if you are still with me, do the math.
1/3 West (Christian... but not really, likes to party)
1/3 China (population and growing military, more interested in ecomonic growth and colonizing Mars)
1/3 Islam (organizing the Caliphate with a specific plan for global domination by 2020)

anyway, when the argument of Islam vs Christianity boils down to Quranic and Biblical verse comparison it really doesn't consider the big picture of how theology applies to the headlines. it takes some connection of the dots to put things into perspective.

one more thing, the headlines in Arab news is quite the contrary to the headlines in the US media. that's a whole other thread. but for instance when the VT shooter was reported in Al Jazeera in English it was cut and dry, so many Americans died. when reported in Al Jazeera Arabic it was: so many "Americans died, praise Allah". that's theology for ya.

[9sublime]

Christianity is not the same as Islam.
the main reason is because 57 OIC countries are run by religious law, and it's quite primitive. so daily life in Islam is dominated by strict rules of prayer, dress, governence of personal spending, fraternal oversight, and most of every move a person makes in a day. so the relationship to Allah is clearly defined and enforced by the governments of Islam.
theology is an organized body, in Islam that is the civil government.

This is irrelevant. They do not neccessarily share the identical theology of AQ because of this.

but the importance of understanding that AQ, the Muslim Brotherhood and 57 OIC countries share the same theology is that in the event of a confrontation (911) then the entire organized body (of Islam) shares the same procedure, views, brotherhood in Islam.

This is not true. Islam would wage war on the West after an event of confrontation. Moderate Muslims do not share the same theology, and denounce things like 9/11 as acts of terror.

if you can get past that understanding then you can see clearly the organization of an effort against the West that is growing in numbers (500,000 in Gaza City yesterday, 10000 acts of Islamic terrorism post 911, plenty more examples daily) and understand the threat against us.
this body is very big. this body is condensed into a tight organization moreso than the theology of Juedo-Christian (if you must). looking at that from a military, security, defensive point of view will give you insight to what the planners in our government are faced with.


No, if you can get past understand that you have swallowed down all the US right wing propaganda about Islam and that every Muslim is out to blow up your family because they all follow AQ then you might be able to see the truth in this discussion.
I have Muslim friends who find terrorism despicable, and they certainly subscribe to a theology very different from AQ.

Do all Christians deserve to be grouped with Phelps, purely because they can very loosley by thrown under the same category of believers?

now, if you are still with me, do the math.
1/3 West (Christian... but not really, likes to party)
1/3 China (population and growing military, more interested in ecomonic growth and colonizing Mars)
1/3 Islam (organizing the Caliphate with a specific plan for global domination by 2020)

This is your irrational swallowing of propaganda and the fear that has followed being clearly flagged up. You are making a fool of yourself. This forum is bound to make you feel unsafe. Why don't you go back to watching your right wing TV stations like FOX News?

anyway, when the argument of Islam vs Christianity boils down to Quranic and Biblical verse comparison it really doesn't consider the big picture of how theology applies to the headlines. it takes some connection of the dots to put things into perspective.

Yes, you are connecting the dots that the right wing Islamophobics are telling you to fill in. Some Muslims bomb people... (some dots).... .... ALL MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO KILL ME!

one more thing, the headlines in Arab news is quite the contrary to the headlines in the US media. that's a whole other thread. but for instance when the VT shooter was reported in Al Jazeera in English it was cut and dry, so many Americans died. when reported in Al Jazeera Arabic it was: so many "Americans died, praise Allah". that's theology for ya.

Is that a literal translation... or you talking straight out your arse? I'm pretty sure its the latter. Show me a source for that.

You are the classical example of an uninformed, irrational person convinced by a bunch of other haters that Muslims are all out to kill you.

[bewitched]

This is irrelevant. They do not neccessarily share the identical theology of AQ because of this.



This is not true. Islam would wage war on the West after an event of confrontation. Moderate Muslims do not share the same theology, and denounce things like 9/11 as acts of terror.




No, if you can get past understand that you have swallowed down all the US right wing propaganda about Islam and that every Muslim is out to blow up your family because they all follow AQ then you might be able to see the truth in this discussion.
I have Muslim friends who find terrorism despicable, and they certainly subscribe to a theology very different from AQ.

Do all Christians deserve to be grouped with Phelps, purely because they can very loosley by thrown under the same category of believers?



This is your irrational swallowing of propaganda and the fear that has followed being clearly flagged up. You are making a fool of yourself. This forum is bound to make you feel unsafe. Why don't you go back to watching your right wing TV stations like FOX News?



Yes, you are connecting the dots that the right wing Islamophobics are telling you to fill in. Some Muslims bomb people... (some dots).... .... ALL MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO KILL ME!



Is that a literal translation... or you talking straight out your arse? I'm pretty sure its the latter. Show me a source for that.

You are the classical example of an uninformed, irrational person convinced by a bunch of other haters that Muslims are all out to kill you.
wow.
whatever.
I don't listen to or support the right wing.
and no one said "all muslims are going to kill me", except you.
I see from you the same tired old argument of those who don't understand Islamic theology and compare it to Christianity and Western thinking. and name calling when you can't accept another point of view.
have a nice day.

[Popeye]

wow.
whatever.
I don't listen to or support the right wing.
and no one said "all muslims are going to kill me", except you.
I see from you the same tired old argument of those who don't understand Islamic theology and compare it to Christianity and Western thinking. and name calling when you can't accept another point of view.
have a nice day.

You do seem to have a "all muslims are going to kill me" mind set.

[bewitched]

You do seem to have a "all muslims are going to kill me" mind set.

you don't even know me.
because I don't think that at all.

now the theology of Islam is that non-muslims shouldn't exist. but that's Islamic theology, not mine. so maybe you are trying to say that muslims have the mindset of killing non-muslims... and that would be correct.
this is preached in madrassass and mosques all over the world.

[9sublime]

No, its the theology of some Muslims, not all Muslims, that non-Muslims shouldn't exist. Some Muslims believe what they believe, and have no interest converting me to their faith or killing me.

[bewitched]

No, its the theology of some Muslims, not all Muslims, that non-Muslims shouldn't exist. Some Muslims believe what they believe, and have no interest converting me to their faith or killing me.

no, that isn't really true. because that is the job of every muslim according to Islam.
theology is an organized foundation, Islamic foundation believes certain principles, and one of them is that those who are non-muslims are not equal, they are lesser, dhimmis. there is no religious pluralism in Islam.

now if you are talking about individuals that's a different topic.
but ask your muslim friends if you are considered equal by not being a muslim according to the Quran and Mohammed.

[Popeye]

no, that isn't really true. because that is the job of every muslim according to Islam.
theology is an organized foundation, Islamic foundation believes certain principles, and one of them is that those who are non-muslims are not equal, they are lesser, dhimmis. there is no religious pluralism in Islam.

now if you are talking about individuals that's a different topic.
but ask your muslim friends if you are considered equal by not being a muslim according to the Quran and Mohammed.

Almost the exact same thing could be said about fundamentalist Christians and their interpretation of the Bible.

[9sublime]

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

Do you believe that Christians follow that purely because its in their scripture? By the same logic, you should believe this to be an integral part of Christian theology. But wait, its not. Because religion is open to interpretation, and various organizations in Islam interpret Islam differently. Stop being so close minded, fear mongering and irrational.

[bewitched]

Do you believe that Christians follow that purely because its in their scripture? By the same logic, you should believe this to be an integral part of Christian theology. But wait, its not. Because religion is open to interpretation, and various organizations in Islam interpret Islam differently. Stop being so close minded, fear mongering and irrational.

our government doesn't enforce religious belief. do they?
stop calling me names with wrong accusations.

[bewitched]

Almost the exact same thing could be said about fundamentalist Christians and their interpretation of the Bible.
Modern jurisprudence and philosophy of law is dominated today primarily by Western academics. The ideas of the Western legal tradition have become so pervasive throughout the world that it is tempting to see them as universal.

that means that Western law isn't the same as Islamic law.
for the most part... we think Western and can't seem to understand the other side.

[9sublime]

But you fail to understand that the very fact that some Muslims condemn jihad shows that as a group not all of them share the same theology, and thus there is a difference between them.

[bewitched]

But you fail to understand that the very fact that some Muslims condemn jihad shows that as a group not all of them share the same theology, and thus there is a difference between them.

again, we aren't talking about individual muslims.
never were.
theology is an organized foundation, in Islam it's the government. does everyone follow the law of governments? no.
but the theology is in place for people to do so. and the militaries (and military action, even by AQ) go by those theologies.

[9sublime]

But there are groups of Muslims that denounce terror.

[bewitched]

But there are groups of Muslims that denounce terror.

again, you are talking about individual muslims.

there's a thing called taqqiya, it is accepted in practice. that means a muslim can lie and decieve in order to gain ground on an enemy. that's part of the law too. people will go to heaven in Islam if they decieve non-muslims. that's part of Islamic organized practice and theology.

in logistics, when muslims are the majority you will see the pluralism disappear. Paris suburbs, the Palestinian issue, the Taliban, Chechnya. sure your majority of muslim friends are just chillin... but in Africa they are shooting up villages and converting Christians or chopping them up with machettes.
think big picture.

I like people too, I like diversity, but that's not theology.

[vyo476]

Obama's religious background is dangerous for this day and age.

You claim to know Islam "from the inside." How is this any different?

[bewitched]

You claim to know Islam "from the inside." How is this any different?

I grew up with the experience in Islam from a respected teacher, writer, scholar, warrior. I have known Islam from practice and research for about 40 years. I know others who have lived among the muhadjadin who have the same experience. and together we teach those who think Western the other point of view, mostly First Responders, government officials, university students.

[Mr. Shaman]

in logistics, when muslims are the majority you will see the pluralism disappear. Paris suburbs, the Palestinian issue, the Taliban, Chechnya. sure your majority of muslim friends are just chillin... but in Africa they are shooting up villages and converting Christians or chopping them up with machettes.
Gee.....that sounds awfully familiar (http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1137511050). :rolleyes:

[bewitched]

Gee.....that sounds awfully familiar (http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1137511050). :rolleyes:

yeah, comparing 16-17 century Christian aggression has so much to do with our daily lives today.
I happen to care about my family and our existance from this point into the future. and I want to be safe.
so... let's see... 16th century history can help us be safe... how?

[Mr. Shaman]

yeah, comparing 16-17 century Christian aggression has so much to do with our daily lives today.
I happen to care about my family and our existance from this point into the future. and I want to be safe.
so... let's see... 16th century history can help us be safe... how?
Well, suggesting Muslims have some kind o' corner on the whole Conversion-gig is more than naive. We (in the U.S.) have merely found a more efficient/mechanized way (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Delhi12.jpg) of doing-so.

[bewitched]

Well, suggesting Muslims have some kind o' corner on the whole Conversion-gig is more than naive. We (in the U.S.) have merely found a more efficient/mechanized way (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Delhi12.jpg) of doing-so.

I'm only referring to terrorism and the threat of the Caliphate.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Mr. Shaman]

yeah, comparing 16-17 century Christian aggression has so much to do with our daily lives today.
I'm only referring to terrorism and the threat of the Caliphate.
Yeah....what do the folks in The Middle East know about precedence, huh? :rolleyes:

[Mr. Shaman]

"Focusing on Barack Obama’s “inexperience” and “undisciplined messaging” are two ways to ensure that the senator from Illinois doesn’t get to be president, according to honchos at the Republican National Committee.

Big RNC contributors got an earful this weekend about methods the GOP will use to battle the Democrats for control of the White House this fall, as well as other initiatives central to the conservative cause.

“We all dislike Hillary,” declared Southern California Rep. Ken Calvert, from the Inland Empire east of Los Angeles, echoing thoughts of the roughly 75 attendees at a Sunday morning RNC session. “Forgetting who will be the easiest to beat, I've got to tell you, a President Hillary doesn’t scare me nearly as much as a President Obama.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/17/politics/politico/main3841826.shtml?source=RSSattr=Politics_3841826

The more things Change..........the more they look like '72......except to the History-challenged Yuppie-spawn.

[Irishone21]

the efficient/mechanized way is reiterating what people truely believe, as if their head was a computer. It is sick, wrong, and illicit. It does not necessarily help, but to bridge a gap, is to bridge a gap, and that I will do. America has gotten out of hand with this whole thing. I feel no respect, despite carrying the world on my shoulders. God Bless Iran.

[Irishone21]

If Al Qaeda are terrorist, so are Americans. Americans terrorize a great deal more than Al Qaeda, that cannot be doubted. We need to stop acting like "Hitler's Sheep," God have mercy, and pursue real leadership, not thought provoking crimes.

[Irishone21]

the efficient/mechanized way is reiterating what people truely believe, as if their head was a computer--> I mean this literally, not metaphorically. The government invades the mind of its youth. It is Ok for us to reiterate truth, for we are responsible for instilling faith in a disillusioned society, but to invade minds and stricken us to the truth we already know is sheer blasphemy. What I'm saying is, the solution is a "return to privacy".

[NO Obamanation]

Nah he cant be the new McGovern. I wasnt alive yet but I think from what I can tell

McGovern was actually proud of his country. plus he might of been more left, I dont think he was a full blown socialist.