Jesus Was A Socialist So The Usa Is A Non-christian Nation

[Foolosophy]

the thread title says it all hey folks?
:cool::cool::cool::cool:

[bododie]

Is that supposed to mean something? Are you suggesting that Austrailia should tell us how to live? Do you care what we think of you? Ditto.

[Foolosophy]

Is that supposed to mean something? Are you suggesting that Austrailia should tell us how to live? Do you care what we think of you? Ditto.

Does it matter who the messenger is?

Dont Amercans EVER look in the mirror and face their innate horror?

[bododie]

Dont Amercans EVER look in the mirror and face their innate horror?

Yes, everyday. Personally, I think It would lesson considerably if we closed our borders to everyone, and everyone else can close their borders to us too, no loss. The fact is that this country has everything WE need to exist,

However, since the average American, like the average citizen of any country doesn't really have a say anymore, what do you suggest we do? I know what I would love to see happen to each of our candidates for president, and it isn't take office.

And Yes, it matters VERY much who the messenger is, and one who doesn't live here, and just assumes things isn't the one to listen to.

[Truth-Bringer]

the thread title says it all hey folks?
:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Jesus was not a socialist:

Jesus on Taxes: Nothing is (Rightly) Caesar's!

The story of Jesus commanding us to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's (Matt. 22:15-22; Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-26) is commonly misrepresented as His commanding us to give to Caesar the denari which he asks for (i.e., to pay taxes to government) as--it is assumed--the denari are Caesar's, being that they have Caesar's image and name on them. But Jesus never said that this was so! What Jesus did say though was an ingenious case of rhetorical misdirection to avoid being immediately arrested, which would have interfered with Old Testament prophecy of His betrayal as well as His own previous predictions of betrayal.

When the Pharisees asked Him whether or not it is lawful to pay taxes to Caesar they did so as a ruse in the hopes of being able to either have Him arrested as a rebel by the Roman authorities or to have Him discredited in the eyes of His followers. At this time in Israel's history it was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire, and taxes--which were being used to support this occupation--were much hated by the mass of the common Jews. Thus, this question was a clever Catch-22 posed to Jesus by the Pharisees: if Jesus answered that it is not lawful then the Pharisees would have Him put away, but if He answered that it is lawful then He would appear to be supporting the subjection of the Jewish people by a foreign power. Luke 20:20 makes the Pharisees' intent in asking this question quite clear:

So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, that they might seize on His words, in order to deliver Him to the power and the authority of the governor.

Thus, Jesus was not free to answer in just any casual manner. Of the Scripture prophecies which would have gone unfulfilled had He answered that it was fine to decline paying taxes and been arrested because of it are the betrayal by Judas (Psalm 41:9; Zech. 11:12,13), and His betrayer replaced (Psalm 109:8--see Acts 1:20); see also Acts 1:15-26 and Psalm 69:25. Here is a quote from Peter on this matter from Acts 1:16:

"Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus."

In Matt. 26:54,56 and Mark 14:49 Jesus testifies to this exact same thing after He was betrayed by Judas. As well, Jesus Himself twice foretold of His betrayal before He was asked the question on taxes--see Matt. 17:22; 20:18; Mark 9:31; 10:33; and Luke 9:44; 19:31. See also John 13:18-30, which testifies to the necessity of the fulfillment of Psalm 41:9, as Jesus here foretells of His betrayal by Judas.

In addition, it appears that the only reason Jesus paid the temple tax (and by supernatural means at that) as told in Matt. 17:24-27 was so as not to stir up trouble which would have interfered with the fulfillment of Old Testament Scripture and Jesus's previous prediction of His betrayal as told in Matt. 17:22--neither of which would have been fulfilled had Jesus not paid the tax and been arrested because of it. Jesus Himself supports this view when He said of it "Nevertheless, lest we offend them . . ." (NKJV), which can also be translated "But we don't want to cause trouble" (CEV). He said this after in effect saying that those who pay customs and taxes are not free (v. 25,26)--yet one reason Jesus came was to call us to liberty (Luke 4:18; Gal. 4:7; 5:1,13,14; 1 Cor. 7:23; 2 Cor. 3:17; James 1:25; 2:12).

It should be remembered in all of this that it was Jesus Himself who told us "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." (Matt. 10:16). Jesus was being wise as a serpent as He never told us to pay taxes to Caesar, of which He could have done and still fulfilled Scripture and His previous predictions of betrayal. But the one thing He couldn't have told people was that it was okay not to pay taxes as He would have been arrested on the spot, and Scripture and His predictions of betrayal would have gone unfulfilled. Yet the most important thing in all this is what Jesus did not say. Jesus never said that all or any of the denari were Caesar's! Jesus simply said "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's." But this just begs the question, What is Caesar's? Simply because the denari have Caesar's name and image on them no more make them his than one carving their name into the back of a stolen TV set makes it theirs. Yet everything Caesar has has been taken by theft and extortion, therefore nothing is rightly his.

Tax Collectors are Sinners!

A further demonstration that Jesus considered the institution of taxation to be unjust is given in the below story:

Matthew 9:9-13: As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me." So he arose and followed Him. Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (See also Mark 2:14-17; Luke 5:27-32.)

It's important to point out here that Jesus actually made a stronger case against the unrighteousness of tax collectors than the Pharisees originally had in questioning Jesus's disciples about it: the Pharisees actually separated the tax collectors from the sinners when they asked "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" Yet when Jesus heard this He answered the Pharisees by lumping the two groups together under the category of sinners--thus: "For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Yet since this is the story of Matthew the tax collector being called to repentance by Jesus we will do well to ask how it was that Matthew obtained repentance. The answer: By first giving up tax collecting! And from this beginning Matthew would thus go on to become one of Jesus's twelve disciples.

Link (http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html)

[Andy]

the thread title says it all hey folks?
:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Jesus was not a socialist. Therefore the conclusion based on the false presupposition is wrong.

[PLC1]

Which industries did Jesus want to nationalize?

Come to think of it, what industries even existed back then?

[Sharon den Adel]

I don't know whether Jesus was a socialist or not, but I don't see the US as being a Christian nation.

[pocketfullofshells]

if the US is a Christan Nation, then maybe I am not American then? I am not Christan and I don't feel I should have to be to be a American.

[ilikeboobs]

The US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, but it is hardly a Christian nation.

[SW85]

if the US is a Christan Nation, then maybe I am not American then? I am not Christan and I don't feel I should have to be to be a American.

You don't have to be Jewish to be Israeli or Muslim to be Iraqi, but that doesn't stop anyone from describing Israel as a Jewish nation or Iraq as a Muslim one. It's just a descriptive.

At any rate, it is entirely possible to give and advocate for giving (as Jesus did) and not be a socialist. Americans did this in droves before the New Deal came along and basically made compassion yet another function of government bureaucracy.

[Here We Go]

What we have here, is a "New World DISorder". :(

[Andy]

I don't know whether Jesus was a socialist or not, but I don't see the US as being a Christian nation.

It was a Christian nation. Past tense. Not current tense. It most certainly isn't a Christian nation anymore.

[PLC1]

Part of the title is correct, of course. The US is not, and never has been, a Christian nation.

Article the third [Amendment I]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And I sincerely hope it never will be.

[SW85]

Part of the title is correct, of course. The US is not, and never has been, a Christian nation.



And I sincerely hope it never will be.

See my post above; again, a nation can be reasonably described as Christian without its government being explicitly Christian as such.

[Andy]

Part of the title is correct, of course. The US is not, and never has been, a Christian nation.

And I sincerely hope it never will be.

I hate to break it to you, but you are incorrect. In 1811, the case of People v. Ruggles went to court. Ruggles had posted a vicious attack on Christianity. The court ruled as follows: an attack on Jesus Christ was an attack on Christianity; and an attack on Christianity was an attack on the foundation of the country; therefore, an attack on Jesus Christ was an equivalent to an attack on the country! The man was sentenced to 3 months in prison and a fine of $500.00 for attacking the country by attacking Jesus Christ.

In 1892 the case "Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States." was ruled on thus: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

George Washington established Thanksgiving as a national religious holiday.

"This great nation was founded ... by Christians" -Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay

"It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible." -G. Washington.

And from the Christian Thomas Jefferson...
"That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

I would hope that most would understand the undeniable truth that the United States of America was founded and existed as a Christian nation for most of the past 200 years. Also that things have crumbled since we lost that foundation...

[The Scotsman]

I hate to break it to you, but you are incorrect. In 1811, the case of People v. Ruggles went to court. Ruggles had posted a vicious attack on Christianity. The court ruled as follows: an attack on Jesus Christ was an attack on Christianity; and an attack on Christianity was an attack on the foundation of the country; therefore, an attack on Jesus Christ was an equivalent to an attack on the country! The man was sentenced to 3 months in prison and a fine of $500.00 for attacking the country by attacking Jesus Christ.

In 1892 the case "Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States." was ruled on thus: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

......... but would these see the inside of a court room today?

[NO Obamanation]

I hate to break it to you, but you are incorrect. In 1811, the case of People v. Ruggles went to court. Ruggles had posted a vicious attack on Christianity. The court ruled as follows: an attack on Jesus Christ was an attack on Christianity; and an attack on Christianity was an attack on the foundation of the country; therefore, an attack on Jesus Christ was an equivalent to an attack on the country! The man was sentenced to 3 months in prison and a fine of $500.00 for attacking the country by attacking Jesus Christ.

In 1892 the case "Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States." was ruled on thus: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

George Washington established Thanksgiving as a national religious holiday.

"This great nation was founded ... by Christians" -Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay

"It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible." -G. Washington.

And from the Christian Thomas Jefferson...
"That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

I would hope that most would understand the undeniable truth that the United States of America was founded and existed as a Christian nation for most of the past 200 years. Also that things have crumbled since we lost that foundation...

I thought it was Abraham Lincoln who made Thanksgiving a national holiday?

[Andy]

......... but would these see the inside of a court room today?

Can I quote myself?

From post #13 of this thread:
It was a Christian nation. Past tense. Not current tense. It most certainly isn't a Christian nation anymore.

[Andy]

I thought it was Abraham Lincoln who made Thanksgiving a national holiday?

From Wiki:

As President, on October 3, 1789, George Washington made the following proclamation and created the first Thanksgiving Day designated by the national government of the United States of America: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_%28United_States%29)

-and I'll let you go look up his speech if you feel incline to. But no it was in fact George Washington.

However, you are not entire wrong. Lincoln established the third Thursday of November, whereas Washington said the 26th of November. Other presidents celebrated at different times. Lincoln made it final, and how we celebrate God's goodness towards us, to this day.

[bododie]

Jesus wasn't a socialist. He was into PERSONAL responsibility, and just general courtesy. Those traits seem to be disdained here anymore.

[NO Obamanation]

From Wiki:

As President, on October 3, 1789, George Washington made the following proclamation and created the first Thanksgiving Day designated by the national government of the United States of America: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_%28United_States%29)

-and I'll let you go look up his speech if you feel incline to. But no it was in fact George Washington.

However, you are not entire wrong. Lincoln established the third Thursday of November, whereas Washington said the 26th of November. Other presidents celebrated at different times. Lincoln made it final, and how we celebrate God's goodness towards us, to this day.

Ah you are right, thank you :)

That is one holiday I am willing to celebrate. I dont care for the others.

[PLC1]

I hate to break it to you, but you are incorrect. In 1811, the case of People v. Ruggles went to court. Ruggles had posted a vicious attack on Christianity. The court ruled as follows: an attack on Jesus Christ was an attack on Christianity; and an attack on Christianity was an attack on the foundation of the country; therefore, an attack on Jesus Christ was an equivalent to an attack on the country! The man was sentenced to 3 months in prison and a fine of $500.00 for attacking the country by attacking Jesus Christ.

In 1892 the case "Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States." was ruled on thus: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

George Washington established Thanksgiving as a national religious holiday.

"This great nation was founded ... by Christians" -Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay

"It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible." -G. Washington.

And from the Christian Thomas Jefferson...
"That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

I would hope that most would understand the undeniable truth that the United States of America was founded and existed as a Christian nation for most of the past 200 years. Also that things have crumbled since we lost that foundation...

From the Treaty of Tripoli (1796):

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

There are many examples of courts trying to remake the laws of the USA. You have cited one.