Who won the debate?

[NO Obamanation]

I dont know, I think they both did well. But something I had not thought of before tonight was something at the end.

When Obama said he can heal America over the war and give us good standing around the world, (something he has said many times)


McCain reminded us that he helped heal those wounds of Vietnam, and got normalized relations with Vietnam. He has already proven he can do what Obama often says he can do.

I had not thought of that.

I think they both did well, so I guess a tie

but Obama did make some really funny faces

[NO Obamanation]

I loved the line from Obama

I have a bracelet too! then he stumbled on the name of the soldier named on it

[Mr. Carpenter]

I'd have to give it to McCain, but only by a few points. The most telling thing for me was the fact that Obama kept playing the Bush card, as well as playing the "we shouldn't have gone to Iraq in the first place" card. What that says to me is that Obama didn't have anything he could really go after McCain on, so he was using the old "misdirection" game by trying to paint McCain as Bush.

Obama got caught several times on either flat out fabrications, and spent a lot of time equivocating, as well as the fact that he's changed his positions so much that you need a scorecard to find out what he "belives" this week. McCain had several opportunities to land knock-out blows, and he flubbed them, badly. Honestly, I was dissapointed in both of them, but I knew several months ago that regardless of who wins, that America isn't getting a "first string" player, some come January, you'd better be ready for a one-term wonder that's not going to do anything except "warm the bench".

[TruthAboveAll]

I dont know, I think they both did well. But something I had not thought of before tonight was something at the end.

When Obama said he can heal America over the war and give us good standing around the world, (something he has said many times)


McCain reminded us that he helped heal those wounds of Vietnam, and got normalized relations with Vietnam. He has already proven he can do what Obama often says he can do.

I had not thought of that.

I think they both did well, so I guess a tie

but Obama did make some really funny faces

Ironically, both sides said before hand (based on Carl Cameron and Major Garrett on FNS) they were hoping for a draw.

That's an excellent observation on McCain. The man is a walking testimonial of someone with a forgiving spirit. He had every reason to hate anything to do with 'Nam, yet he's done as much as any individual build that bridge.

It is altruistic hyperbole on Obama's part. He cannot heal America in the sense he speaks. Our standing in the world is as much a reflection of the derision of he and his compatriots as much as any other factor.

About the war/healing: The fact is that war, ANY war, is a deeply divisive time for our country. Some more so than others, but there are always factions deeply committed to being for or against. Only history can prove beyond doubt where the truth lies (if the media will allow us to have it!) and even then often retains subjectivity.

Obama making funny faces? Now how "presidential" is that?... Perhaps it was gas, since he's so full of hot air...

[NO Obamanation]

I'd have to give it to McCain, but only by a few points. The most telling thing for me was the fact that Obama kept playing the Bush card, as well as playing the "we shouldn't have gone to Iraq in the first place" card. What that says to me is that Obama didn't have anything he could really go after McCain on, so he was using the old "misdirection" game by trying to paint McCain as Bush.

Obama got caught several times on either flat out fabrications, and spent a lot of time equivocating, as well as the fact that he's changed his positions so much that you need a scorecard to find out what he "belives" this week. McCain had several opportunities to land knock-out blows, and he flubbed them, badly. Honestly, I was dissapointed in both of them, but I knew several months ago that regardless of who wins, that America isn't getting a "first string" player, some come January, you'd better be ready for a one-term wonder that's not going to do anything except "warm the bench".


I really hate it when Obama does the I oposed Iraq in the first place.

1. The stupid moron was only running for US Senator at that time and never voted no, he just spewed words

2. its a done deal, we are in Iraq, to go on and on that "I would have voted no" does not change that we are there now and what is next. for a guy who keeps talking about the future he keeps looking back to what he would have done had he been a senator.


His camp said tonight that when McCain spoke about his experience it was all stuff from the past and Obama is about the future, but all Obama can talk about is what he would not have done if he would have been a senator way back when he was not voting. That isnt very futuristic in my book

[NO Obamanation]

Ironically, both sides said before hand (based on Carl Cameron and Major Garrett on FNS) they were hoping for a draw.

That's an excellent observation on McCain. The man is a walking testimonial of someone with a forgiving spirit. He had every reason to hate anything to do with 'Nam, yet he's done as much as any individual build that bridge.

It is altruistic hyperbole on Obama's part. He cannot heal America in the sense he speaks. Our standing in the world is as much a reflection of the derision of he and his compatriots as much as any other factor.

About the war/healing: The fact is that war, ANY war, is a deeply divisive time for our country. Some more so than others, but there are always factions deeply committed to being for or against. Only history can prove beyond doubt where the truth lies (if the media will allow us to have it!) and even then often retains subjectivity.

Obama making funny faces? Now how "presidential" is that?... Perhaps it was gas, since he's so full of hot air...

He looked like he needed to take a crap. sorry to be vulger but he did.

Our country is so devided right now, even race stuff. I come from a really non racist state and last week someone made a card board cut out of Obama and hung it on a tree and wrote mean stuff about the affermative action group at that college. This would have never happened before. So many race related things are happening that never used to happen.

If this man is cracking the USA in half, how can he heal the world or the war

[TruthAboveAll]

I'd have to give it to McCain, but only by a few points. The most telling thing for me was the fact that Obama kept playing the Bush card, as well as playing the "we shouldn't have gone to Iraq in the first place" card. What that says to me is that Obama didn't have anything he could really go after McCain on, so he was using the old "misdirection" game by trying to paint McCain as Bush.

Obama got caught several times on either flat out fabrications, and spent a lot of time equivocating, as well as the fact that he's changed his positions so much that you need a scorecard to find out what he "belives" this week. McCain had several opportunities to land knock-out blows, and he flubbed them, badly. Honestly, I was dissapointed in both of them, but I knew several months ago that regardless of who wins, that America isn't getting a "first string" player, some come January, you'd better be ready for a one-term wonder that's not going to do anything except "warm the bench".

I think a large part of McCain's continuing reluctance to go for the throat has to do with some of the criticisms about his temperament. I suspect he may feel that it's extremely important for him to maintain a higher than average level of composure and almost a patriarchal tolerance. And I'm not so sure he's wrong on that. If he does go on the offensive, the media absolutely rips him.

[Shotgun314159]

it was a good debate.
juan lied a bit.
yet
that is what is republicans and conservatives do

lie

[NO Obamanation]

I think a large part of McCain's continuing reluctance to go for the throat has to do with some of the criticisms about his temperament. I suspect he may feel that it's extremely important for him to maintain a higher than average level of composure and almost a patriarchal tolerance. And I'm not so sure he's wrong on that. If he does go on the offensive, the media absolutely rips him.

That is a good point.


I liked when the tv did a split screen and you could see Obama torking and twisting his face while McCain spoke with a smile. it was priceless

[GenSeneca]

Obama is going down in flames... :)

Would have liked to see Ron Paul up there with them... or at least Bob Barr. I think its crap that these debates are only between the two party candidates and third party candidates are not welcome.

[NO Obamanation]

it was a good debate.
juan lied a bit.
yet
that is what is republicans and conservatives do

lie

What did he lie about and are you saying Obama did not lie?

I am assuming you are saying that by not adding his name

[Mr. Carpenter]

I think a large part of McCain's continuing reluctance to go for the throat has to do with some of the criticisms about his temperament. I suspect he may feel that it's extremely important for him to maintain a higher than average level of composure and almost a patriarchal tolerance. And I'm not so sure he's wrong on that. If he does go on the offensive, the media absolutely rips him.

I can see that, yet at the same time, there's a difference between "ripping their throats out", and admonishing to the point of embarassment. Take the Reagan/Mondale debate for instance. When Reagan said "I won't make age an issue in this debate. I refuse to use my opponants youth and inexperience against him", or something to that effect, after that, it was "Mondale who?"

[NO Obamanation]

Obama is going down in flames... :)

Would have liked to see Ron Paul up there with them... or at least Bob Barr. I think its crap that these debates are only between the two party candidates and third party candidates are not welcome.

OH I did not think about that. Are they going to be in any of the debates?

I dont think Obama did badly, he just made some seriously wierd faces

[Mr. Carpenter]

it was a good debate.
juan lied a bit.
yet
that is what is republicans and conservatives do

lie

What lie? I clearly saw Obama "shade the truth" several times, and even repeatedly try to mischaracterize McCains record, but I didn't see where McCain did that.

[NO Obamanation]

I can see that, yet at the same time, there's a difference between "ripping their throats out", and admonishing to the point of embarassment. Take the Reagan/Mondale debate for instance. When Reagan said "I won't make age an issue in this debate. I refuse to use my opponants youth and inexperience against him", or something to that effect, after that, it was "Mondale who?"

That was a great Reagan line

[Shotgun314159]

juan did not have the balls to look obama in the eye
juan kept saying "you don't understand"
yet obama seems to get it
obamma held his own

george will gave it to obama ???

[foggedinn]

Debate? What Debate?

It was all blah, blah, blah, party talking point. Which was answered by Oh yea, well blah, blah, blah, party talking point.

I could have read the newspapers for the last month and written the script myself.

[NO Obamanation]

juan did not have the balls to look obama in the eye
juan kept saying "you don't understand"
yet obama seems to get it
obamma held his own

george will gave it to obama ???

what were the lies ? you said McCain lied

[Mr. Carpenter]

Obama is going down in flames... :)

Would have liked to see Ron Paul up there with them... or at least Bob Barr. I think its crap that these debates are only between the two party candidates and third party candidates are not welcome.

I'd have much rather seen Romney, Huckabee, Tancredo, Hunter, or even Bill Richardson up there than either McCain or Obama.

[NO Obamanation]

Debate? What Debate?

It was all blah, blah, blah, party talking point. Which was answered by Oh yea, well blah, blah, blah, party talking point.

I could have read the newspapers for the last month and written the script myself.

Yeah but junkies like to watch its like getting a political fix :)

[Shotgun314159]

What did he lie about and are you saying Obama did not lie?

I am assuming you are saying that by not adding his name


jaun lied about ike
he did not write a regisination letter

[Mr. Carpenter]

juan did not have the balls to look obama in the eye
juan kept saying "you don't understand"
yet obama seems to get it
obamma held his own

george will gave it to obama ???

Again, where did McCain "lie"? You accused him of lying, what lies did he tell?

[NO Obamanation]

I'd have much rather seen Romney, Huckabee, Tancredo, Hunter, or even Bill Richardson up there than either McCain or Obama.

I do not like Huckabee at all for a president, though he seems a nice enough guy to go fishing with

I really wanted Romney, I wanted him to be the nominee very badly.


I hate bill richardson, I think he is a snake, he totally screwed the clintons

[TruthAboveAll]

He looked like he needed to take a crap. sorry to be vulger but he did.

Our country is so devided right now, even race stuff. I come from a really non racist state and last week someone made a card board cut out of Obama and hung it on a tree and wrote mean stuff about the affermative action group at that college. This would have never happened before. So many race related things are happening that never used to happen.

If this man is cracking the USA in half, how can he heal the world or the war

LOL at your ASSessment...

There are two separate HUGE issues brewing throughout the Obama campaign: racism and class warfare. I find it appalling to see shades of the 1960's and earlier returning. I do not believe that racism can ever be totally eliminated, just as class envy will always be there. To an extent, the racial differences are somewhat hard-wired in us. And so is greed and jealousy. It's recognizing that and choosing not to be influenced or controlled by it and growing past it that makes a huge difference.

If we can keep inching toward the objective that racial differences can be acknowledged without putting any value for or against an individual based on race, or on a racial group corporately we will be perpetually winning the battle. I don't see where anything in Obama's rhetoric serves that objective.

[Shotgun314159]

Debate? What Debate?

It was all blah, blah, blah, party talking point. Which was answered by Oh yea, well blah, blah, blah, party talking point.

I could have read the newspapers for the last month and written the script myself.

no
they did debate well

that you have no attention span
nor the ability to understand
the complex issues
is your prob

[NO Obamanation]

jaun lied about ike
he did not write a regisination letter

can you please prove that

[GenSeneca]

What lie? I clearly saw Obama "shade the truth" several times, and even repeatedly try to mischaracterize McCains record, but I didn't see where McCain did that.

Confucius say:

Troll bait is like bad fruit, better to let it rot than bite at it.

OH I did not think about that. Are they going to be in any of the debates?

Nope... 3rd party is persona non grata - wouldn't want them to steal the show from these two clowns.

[Shotgun314159]

can you please prove that

i think fact checkers have already done that
why are u so intense on it

anyway

juan was sposed to be the expert

obama held his own

so he won

[NO Obamanation]

LOL at your ASSessment...

There are two separate HUGE issues brewing throughout the Obama campaign: racism and class warfare. I find it appalling to see shades of the 1960's and earlier returning. I do not believe that racism can ever be totally eliminated, just as class envy will always be there. To an extent, the racial differences are somewhat hard-wired in us. And so is greed and jealousy. It's recognizing that and choosing not to be influenced or controlled by it and growing past it that makes a huge difference.

If we can keep inching toward the objective that racial differences can be acknowledged without putting any value for or against an individual based on race, or on a racial group corporately we will be perpetually winning the battle. I don't see where anything in Obama's rhetoric serves that objective.


Not sure what you are LOL at

Oregon is not a racist place, it just never has been and it is starting to become that way. It is just a fact. We have always had class warfare and that is no better no worse but the race stuff has become worse

[NO Obamanation]

i think fact checkers have already done that
why are u so intense on it

anyway

juan was sposed to be the expert

obama held his own

so he won

so if you hold your own you win?

I thought if you hold your own its a tie. I think it was probably a tie

[Shotgun314159]

LOL at your ASSessment...

There are two separate HUGE issues brewing throughout the Obama campaign: racism and class warfare. I find it appalling to see shades of the 1960's and earlier returning. I do not believe that racism can ever be totally eliminated, just as class envy will always be there. To an extent, the racial differences are somewhat hard-wired in us. And so is greed and jealousy. It's recognizing that and choosing not to be influenced or controlled by it and growing past it that makes a huge difference.

If we can keep inching toward the objective that racial differences can be acknowledged without putting any value for or against an individual based on race, or on a racial group corporately we will be perpetually winning the battle. I don't see where anything in Obama's rhetoric serves that objective.

what the fuk

this was not in the dabate at all

[NO Obamanation]

what the fuk

this was not in the dabate at all

hehe it was a reply to me about something I wrote about something that happened in my home state.

either that your toking to much wacky weed :)

[Shotgun314159]

so if you hold your own you win?

I thought if you hold your own its a tie. I think it was probably a tie

i think that the tie
goes to obama

juan was sposed to be an expert
he missed a few names
obssesed on iraq

and missed to trounce obama

that is why the tie goes to the underdog

[TruthAboveAll]

I can see that, yet at the same time, there's a difference between "ripping their throats out", and admonishing to the point of embarassment. Take the Reagan/Mondale debate for instance. When Reagan said "I won't make age an issue in this debate. I refuse to use my opponants youth and inexperience against him", or something to that effect, after that, it was "Mondale who?"

Oh, I agree! I'd love to see HRC give some of her brass ones out as a mutual-opposition gift!

But I think Newt Gingrich had it right. I can't recall at the moment exactly what he said, but it was to the effect that we shouldn't be looking for another Reagan, because we won't find it. He was most likely, sadly, a once-in-a-lifetime statesman.

And IMHO, I think Newt himself is one of the few Conservatives out there that could come close to pulling off that line with the humor, self-assurance and humiliation of Mondale that Reagan could.

[NO Obamanation]

i think that the tie
goes to obama

juan was sposed to be an expert
he missed a few names
obssesed on iraq

and missed to trounce obama

that is why the tie goes to the underdog

hmm ok, but I dont agree

If I had to pick a winner I would say McCain

but since it was not a knock out, Id say tie

[NO Obamanation]

I also liked the freeze spending on McCains part except for the absolutes.

did you notice Obama would not say what he will cut because of this dumb bail out
not even from his new trillion in spending

[Shotgun314159]

ya a tie goes to obamma

juan was down in the polls
a tie keeps juan
down in the
polls

biden is trasing juan on all the after shows
poor sister sarah is ????

[Shotgun314159]

I also liked the freeze spending on McCains part except for the absolutes.

did you notice Obama would not say what he will cut because of this dumb bail out
not even from his new trillion in spending

a freeze in spending is nut case talk

he has no political cover for that

you can't just go against the republicans

to say

I can go against the gop and the dnc and get things done
is moronic

[NO Obamanation]

ya a tie goes to obamma

juan was down in the polls
a tie keeps juan
down in the
polls

biden is trasing juan on all the after shows
poor sister sarah is ????

I dont know why but I like Biden
I dont agree with him politically but I just like him

weird huh

he is doing what he needs to do, and I dont think it is easy, he and McCain are real life friends.

[NO Obamanation]

a freeze in spending is nut case talk

he has no political cover for that

you can't just go against the republicans

to say

I can go against the gop and the dnc and get things done
is moronic

If they are going to spend billions of OUR dollars on this crap then they better cut something!

[TruthAboveAll]

Confucius say:

Troll bait is like bad fruit, better to let it rot than bite at it.

LOVE it! I know that's how I feel about a certain individual - I keep fighting the urge to ask if he works hard at being such an illiterate imbecile or if it comes natural...

Nope... 3rd party is persona non grata - wouldn't want them to steal the show from these two clowns.

I'm not sure if that's totally correct. I was under the impression about the accepted guidelines of projected vote percentage or some such... I'd like to see that change, but at the same time I can appreciate that concept that in a basically two-person race, with the American public's attention span allowing other participants would distract. That doesn't mean that the two dominant candidates are going to utilize that wisely...:rolleyes:

[top gun]

Obama wins 1st debate...

I was a little surprised that John McCain did not get completely blown out in the debate tonight. Maybe I just had extremely low expectations.

However in looking Presidential and in presenting the facts in a calm rational demeanor Senator Obama wins on points.

It was said that John McCain never looked at his opponent and remained "hunched" over his podium. The thing I noticed right away was the cold blooded lizard like looks McCain constantly made when I presume he thought he was off camera. It was like something out of a bad B Horror Movie!

John McCain has a bad habit at pushing out a forced laugh when something really just is not funny and glaring off into space with that hyper blinking thing. It's very weird and distracting. Not the image of a President.

And there was that repeating himself thing McCain does that's bothersome.

So to be completely fair I'm going to say both guys went the distance. McCain went to his "I'm tough self image" and Senator Obama stuck to his "I'm in touch with working folk and I'm seriously interested in helping you."

Style points you'd have to give to Senator Obama but you'd expect that.

I'm now more than ever looking forward to the VP debate and the next 2 Presidential debates as the candidates sharpen up their swords.

[NO Obamanation]

Obama wins 1st debate...

I was a little surprised that John McCain did not get completely blown out in the debate tonight. Maybe I just had extremely low expectations.

However in looking Presidential and in presenting the facts in a calm rational demeanor Senator Obama wins on points.

It was said that John McCain never looked at his opponent and remained "hunched" over his podium. The thing I noticed right away was the cold blooded lizard like looks McCain constantly made when I presume he thought he was off camera. It was like something out of a bad B Horror Movie!

John McCain has a bad habit at pushing out a forced laugh when something really just is not funny and glaring off into space with that hyper blinking thing. It's very weird and distracting. Not the image of a President.

And there was that repeating himself thing McCain does that's bothersome.

So to be completely fair I'm going to say both guys went the distance. McCain went to his "I'm tough self image" and Senator Obama stuck to his "I'm in touch with working folk and I'm seriously interested in helping you."

Style points you'd have to give to Senator Obama but you'd expect that.

I'm now more than ever looking forward to the VP debate and the next 2 Presidential debates as the candidates sharpen up their swords.

He is hunched over because of his wounds, he cant help that. That is like making fun of someone because they cant walk or because they have a missing leg.

I do not agree that Obama won, I would say more of a tie but if someone had to be given the night I would say it was McCain. I am glad I dont have to pick because I think a tie is much better.

Didnt you notice all those weird expressions that obama was making

i couldnt tell if he wanted to crap , fart or what. McCain got under obamas skin, Obama did not get under McCains

[GenSeneca]

I'm not sure if that's totally correct. I was under the impression about the accepted guidelines of projected vote percentage or some such... I'd like to see that change, but at the same time I can appreciate that concept that in a basically two-person race, with the American public's attention span allowing other participants would distract. That doesn't mean that the two dominant candidates are going to utilize that wisely.

You are correct... forgive my use of hyperbole as I didn't mean to be taken literally on that point. 3rd party guys only get there by having enough of a vote % ... I think they need 10% to get invited to the debates, if memory serves. Not entirely sure where that vote % comes from though... maybe the primaries but not positive.

[Shotgun314159]

Obama is going down in flames... :)

Would have liked to see Ron Paul up there with them... or at least Bob Barr. I think its crap that these debates are only between the two party candidates and third party candidates are not welcome.

obama is not going down in flames
your blind to partisanship

it was a good debate

i would have loved to see ron paul

yet he chickened out and did not run in the center
he would have been great

[Mr. Carpenter]

Confucius say:

Troll bait is like bad fruit, better to let it rot than bite at it.

Well, being a "newbie", I didn't want to start off my first day by being rude, but I can see where you may very well have a point.

[NO Obamanation]

I am watcing a repeat of the debate on CNN because they have a thing at the bottom that tells you what ind dem and rep are thinking while listening,

its interesting the r and the d are just straight across same when either of them are talking but the ind is going up and down on both, wierd

[Mr. Carpenter]

I do not like Huckabee at all for a president, though he seems a nice enough guy to go fishing with

I really wanted Romney, I wanted him to be the nominee very badly.


I hate bill richardson, I think he is a snake, he totally screwed the clintons

The reason I chose the people on my list is because of every one of the original candidates, they met my requirements. First of all, I like Governors over Senators or Reps for President, and conservatives over liberals. Romney, Huckabee and Richardson were all Governors, while Tancredo and Hunter were both strong fiscal conservatives, and would have done as much as they could to kill all of the "hand out" programs that are costing us more than 3 times as much a year as the "war on terrorism" has cost us since 911.

[NO Obamanation]

The reason I chose the people on my list is because of every one of the original candidates, they met my requirements. First of all, I like Governors over Senators or Reps for President, and conservatives over liberals. Romney, Huckabee and Richardson were all Governors, while Tancredo and Hunter were both strong fiscal conservatives, and would have done as much as they could to kill all of the "hand out" programs that are costing us more than 3 times as much a year as the "war on terrorism" has cost us since 911.

I totally agree with govs over senators. What does a senator do
they show up ( maybe) and they vote yes or no
and if you are in Illinois you can vote present
but seriously
that is not experience. They are not accountable for anything they do, they just vote. They have no budget and when things go wrong they say well those guys voted for it or against it too..

Govs are like mini presidents, the only thing they dont have going for them is FP experience.

[Andy]

The reason I chose the people on my list is because of every one of the original candidates, they met my requirements. First of all, I like Governors over Senators or Reps for President, and conservatives over liberals. Romney, Huckabee and Richardson were all Governors, while Tancredo and Hunter were both strong fiscal conservatives, and would have done as much as they could to kill all of the "hand out" programs that are costing us more than 3 times as much a year as the "war on terrorism" has cost us since 911.

Let me know when you run for president. You have my vote, and I'll donate to your campaign.

[Mr. Carpenter]

Let me know when you run for president. You have my vote, and I'll donate to your campaign.

I'm "unelectable" Andy, but thanks for the thought.

[Shotgun314159]

Who Did the Best Job In the Debate?

Obama 51%
McCain 38%

Who Would Better Handle Economy?

Obama 58%
McCain 37%

Who Would Better Handle Iraq?

Obama 52%
McCain 47%

----

oh ohhhhh

[NO Obamanation]

Who Did the Best Job In the Debate?

Obama 51%
McCain 38%

Who Would Better Handle Economy?

Obama 58%
McCain 37%

Who Would Better Handle Iraq?

Obama 52%
McCain 47%

----





oh ohhhhh

where are you getting your numbers from?

[bododie]

where are you getting your numbers from?
His 8 ball? His delusions? Figures that the notably non biased media is putting out?

Obama is a apparently a chameleon, because tonight he was green. I don't like McCain either, but in these days of serious uncertainty, how much importance should be placed on knowledge gained from years of experience and contacts made, vs. someone who would more than likely have to depend heavily on advisors relative to any situation? These aren't normal times. Not a great time to need a lot of on the job training for simple things, like not to smirk or make faces when someone else, like a world leader is talking.

We'll see how the next one goes.

[Vyddo]

Both candidates presented themselves well. The discussion was civil and I feel both did a reasonably good job of contrasting there positions.

[NO Obamanation]

Fact Checking the Presidential Debate
by Associated Press
Saturday, September 27, 2008


FacebookStumble UponDigg Email Buzz up!

WASHINGTON — Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain stretched the facts in accusing each other of kowtowing to the oil industry and sprinkled other dubious assertions across the landscape of public policy in their first presidential debate.

McCain’s plan to cut the corporate tax rate to 25 percent from 35 percent across the board so as to spur job creation was boiled down by Obama into a $4 billion tax break for Big Oil, as if no other companies or workers would benefit.

McCain similarly cut corners with context when he accused Obama of voting for huge subsidies for the oil industry. Obama voted to strip away those subsidies and, when that failed, backed broad energy legislation that contained them.

So it went during 90 minutes of debate, a reality warp at times.

Some examples:

OBAMA: “Sen. McCain mentioned Henry Kissinger, who is one of his advisers, who along with five recent secretaries of state just said we should meet with Iran — guess what? — without preconditions.”

MCCAIN: “Dr. Kissinger did not say that he would approve face-to-face meetings between the president of the United States and (Iranian President Mahmoud) Ahmadinejad. He did not say that. He said there could be secretary-level and lower-level meetings. I’ve always encouraged that.”

THE FACTS: Obama was right that Kissinger called for meetings without preconditions. McCain was right that Kissinger did not call for such meetings to be between the two presidents.

In a foreign policy forum on Sept. 15, Kissinger said: “I am in favor of negotiating with Iran.” He went on to say, “I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level” and the U.S. should go into the talks with “a clear understanding of what is it we’re trying to prevent. What is it going to do if we can’t achieve what we’re talking about? But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations. We ought, however, to be very clear about the content of negotiations and work it out with other countries and with our own government.”

——

OBAMA: “John, you want to give oil companies another $4 billion” in tax breaks.

THE FACTS: The $4 billion in tax breaks for the oil companies is simply part of McCain’s overall corporate tax reduction plan and does not represent an additional tax benefit. In other words, the corporate tax reduction applies to all corporations, oil companies included. Both Obama and McCain have proposed eliminating oil and gas tax loopholes.

——

MCCAIN: Said the country has lost the sense of accountability exemplified by Allied commander Dwight Eisenhower on the eve of D-Day. He said Eisenhower wrote one letter to be released in the event of victory, which praised the troops, “and he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.”

THE FACTS: Eisenhower prepared to take responsibility in the note to be delivered in the event of D-Day disaster but did not offer to resign.

The full text:

“Our landings in the Cherbourg-Le Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based on the best information available. The troops, the air and the navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone.”

——

OBAMA: Said he would make sure that the health care system “allows everyone to have basic coverage.”

THE FACTS: If that sounds like universal health coverage, it’s not. Obama picked his words carefully — stopping short of claiming outright that his plan provides health care for all. He promises to make health insurance affordable but would only require that children, not adults, have coverage. Estimates of how many would remain without insurance vary. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said during the primaries that Obama’s plan would leave 15 million people uninsured.

——

MCCAIN: “We had an energy bill before the United States Senate. It was festooned with Christmas tree ornaments. It had all kinds of breaks for the oil companies, I mean, billions of dollars worth. I voted against it; Sen. Obama voted for it.”

THE FACTS: Obama did vote for a 2005 energy bill supported by President Bush that included billions in subsidies for oil and natural gas production. McCain opposed the bill on grounds it included unnecessary tax breaks for the oil industry. Obama voted to strip the legislation of the oil and gas industry tax breaks. When that failed, he voted for the overall measure. Obama has said he supported the legislation because it provided money for renewable energy.

——

OBAMA: “We’re also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.”

THE FACTS: Some of the abuses that occurred stemmed from the 1999 repeal of a Depression-era law that separated banks from brokerages. In legislation supported by former President Clinton and Robert Rubin, now a top Obama adviser and treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, this separation was ended — allowing banks and insurance companies to sell securities.

But while regular banks were strictly regulated by the government, Wall Street banks and other non-bank institutions — many of the same institutions whose abuses led to the current crisis — were allowed to operate with less regulation.

——

MCCAIN: McCain said Obama voted to cut off money for the troops in Iraq.

THE FACTS: Despite opposing the war, Obama has, with one exception, voted for Iraq troop financing. In 2007, he voted against a troop funding bill because it did not contain language calling for a troop withdrawal. The Illinois senator backed another bill that had such language — and money for the troops.

——

MCCAIN: In a discussion of how the government could shrink spending, he said: “Look, we are sending $700 billion a year overseas to countries that don’t like us very much.”

THE FACTS: The comment echoes one he made in his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention earlier this month, when he was talking about money the U.S. spends on foreign oil. FactCheck.org says the U.S. this year is on track to spend $536 billion on imported oil — not $700 billion — and nearly one-third of that comes from friendly nations: Canada, Mexico and Britain.
——

MCCAIN: “Sen. Obama twice said in debates he would sit down with Ahmadinejad, (Venezuelan President Hugo) Chavez and (Cuban President) Raul Castro without precondition.”

OBAMA: “Now, understand what this means, ‘without preconditions.’ It doesn’t mean that you invite them over for tea one day. … There’s a difference between preconditions and preparation. Of course we’ve got to do preparations, starting with low-level diplomatic talks, and it may not work, because Iran is a rogue regime.”

THE FACTS: Obama was asked in a July 2007 debate whether he would be willing to meet “without precondition” with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Cuba and other countries the U.S. regards as rogue nations. Obama replied, “I would,” adding that it was ridiculous to think that America is punishing such nations by refusing to speak with them. Time and again since then he has been forced to defend the statement, both by Democrats during the primaries and by Republicans.

Obama has tried to draw a distinction between a precondition and preparation. He has argued that he wouldn’t demand that a foreign leader give in on some fundamental issue before the two sides met to discuss the dispute. But he has said “preparations” would require diplomatic contacts to gauge whether a formal meeting would be useful and to lay the groundwork for those talks.

——

MCCAIN: “You know, we spent $3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana. I don’t know if that was a criminal issue or a paternal issue, but the fact is that it was $3 million of our taxpayers’ money. And it has got to be brought under control.”

THE FACTS: A study regularly mocked by McCain as pork barrel spending could help ease restrictions on logging, development and even the oil and gas drilling that McCain wants to expand. Montana ranchers, farmers and Republican leaders pushed for the study as a step toward taking the grizzly bear off the endangered species list. Former Montana Gov. Judy Martz, a Republican and a McCain supporter, said the bear had been used to block the use of the state’s abundant natural resources, when all along the animal was plentiful. “If it is going to remove it from the list, it is money well spent,” Martz said.

[top gun]

Who Did the Best Job In the Debate?

Obama 51%
McCain 38%

Who Would Better Handle Economy?

Obama 58%
McCain 37%

Who Would Better Handle Iraq?

Obama 52%
McCain 47%

----

oh ohhhhh

That's correct Shotgun.

In fact I just this morning watch talk show hosts from Morning Joe... Conservatives Joe Scarborourgh & Pat Bucannon and moderate Mika Brzezinski break the debate down and it gives very good insight.

Scarborough said he felt Obama won. That all he really needed in a foreign policy debate was to break even with McCain and he went beyond that.

Bucannon said he was giving it to McCain on "points" because he was the agrresser... but felt Obama may still come out the overall winner because he showed he could stand on that stage answer those questions and look extremely Presidential.

Mika said not only did Obama win but she thought TV really hurts McCain. She said not only did Obama tie McCain to Bush but McCain just looked "a little creepy" so clinched up and refusing to even glance at Senator Obama even once. While on the other hand Senator obama addressed McCain directly several times.

I'm amazed that these takes are so similar to what I saw from both a Right & Left prospective.

[NO Obamanation]

That's correct Shotgun.

In fact I just this morning watch talk show hosts from Morning Joe... Conservatives Joe Scarborourgh & Pat Bucannon and moderate Mika Brzezinski break the debate down and it gives very good insight.

Scarborough said he felt Obama won. That all he really needed in a foreign policy debate was to break even with McCain and he went beyond that.

Bucannon said he was giving it to McCain on "points" because he was the agrresser... but felt Obama may still come out the overall winner because he showed he could stand on that stage answer those questions and look extremely Presidential.

Mika said not only did Obama win but she thought TV really hurts McCain. She said not only did Obama tie McCain to Bush but McCain just looked "a little creepy" so clinched up and refusing to even glance at Senator Obama even once. While on the other hand Senator obama addressed McCain directly several times.

I'm amazed that these takes are so similar to what I saw from both a Right & Left prospective.

That is the most bass ackwards thinking. If you just broke even you won?
On Fox one of Obamas biggers spokes person said he felt McCain won though he felt Obama held his own prettty good. And last I looked Obama was not saying he won, I got an email from Obama saying he got through it and then a list of issues he felt he spoke well about. and a clip of what he felt was his best moment.

[Mr. Carpenter]

That's correct Shotgun.

In fact I just this morning watch talk show hosts from Morning Joe... Conservatives Joe Scarborourgh & Pat Bucannon and moderate Mika Brzezinski break the debate down and it gives very good insight.

Scarborough said he felt Obama won. That all he really needed in a foreign policy debate was to break even with McCain and he went beyond that.

Bucannon said he was giving it to McCain on "points" because he was the agrresser... but felt Obama may still come out the overall winner because he showed he could stand on that stage answer those questions and look extremely Presidential.

Mika said not only did Obama win but she thought TV really hurts McCain. She said not only did Obama tie McCain to Bush but McCain just looked "a little creepy" so clinched up and refusing to even glance at Senator Obama even once. While on the other hand Senator obama addressed McCain directly several times.

I'm amazed that these takes are so similar to what I saw from both a Right & Left prospective.

Well, if you let the "talking heads" lead you around by your nose, and make your decisions for you, then you are absolutely correct. If on the other hand, you can think for yourself, you don't care what the "talking heads" say, you have any understanding of history, foreign affairs, and foreign policy, then you have to acknowledge that Obama got his clock cleaned.

This was about foreign policy, and Obama looked like a neophyte trying to argue with his professor, and equivocated so many times that it's obvious that all he's got are "canned responses" that he repeatedly tried to shoehorn in any place he could. All he could do was agree with McCain (9 times to be exact), and even lied about Kissinger in an effort to gloss over his now famous "without preconditions" gaff. Saying that there's a difference between "preconditions" and "preparations" is like trying to say that there's a difference between a '67 Chevy truck and a '67 GMC truck (and in case you don't know, the only real difference between them is the name).

Look, I want to be perfectly clear here, I've never cared for McCain, and the only GOP candidate that ranked lower with me than him was Ron Paul, but Obama is an absolute joke of a candidate (well, maybe not as much of a joke as Dennis Kucinich), imposed on the American people by a DNC electorate that obviously isn't smart enough to know their butts from a hole in the ground, or to be able to find it with both hands.

[BigRob]

Before the debate CNN commented that 70% of people they polled thought Obama would win the debate. So if now only 50-60% of people think he did, does that mean he underperformed?

[NO Obamanation]

Obama insisted last night that Henry Kissinger agreed with him (by twisting Kissengers words) Mr. Kissinger came out about that... and here is what he said.

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: “Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality.”

http://www.bootsandsabers.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/kissinger_senator_mccain_is_right/

[Mr. Carpenter]

Before the debate CNN commented that 70% of people they polled thought Obama would win the debate. So if now only 50-60% of people think he did, does that mean he underperformed?

No, it means that 70% of the people they polled know less about foreign policy than Obama does.:eek:

[Sihouette]

I think McCain came across as a bitter and vindictive vietnam vet with blinders on and a myopic mission of "winning Iraq no matter what the cost".

And of course with Iran, China and Russia circling our dying economy like vultures we cannot afford that cost.

Which makes McCain dangerous for America. So naturally you all will vote him into office like you did his erratic and myopic self-absorbed twin Dubya.

We don't need any more cowboys. The world will not tolerate it. And what's more, we are placed in a position, by those very cowboys themselves, of not being able to dictate to the world what it can and cannot do with regards to us anymore.

Thanks GOP. And no thanks to McCain.

The polls reflect the American people shot Obama way over the top on the "win" of last night's debate. No one is playing dumb when it came to McCain's cowardly, transparent and erratic attempt to dodge the debate beforehand. The majority of Americans, apparently, are done listening to him on any area except Iraq and even those numbers are falling..

[Vyddo]

juan did not have the balls to look obama in the eye
juan kept saying "you don't understand"
yet obama seems to get it
obamma held his own

george will gave it to obama ???\

Neither Obama or Mccain were making eye contact with one another, in fact Lehrer first admonished Obama in trying to get the candidates to make eye contact.

Repetition wasn't a result of a loss for words, it's a way to make a point. Mccain went into far more detail and on matters of Foreign policy Mccain was head and shoulders above Obama.

Many people gave Obama a "win" on the economic side, I found BOTH failed to really address the topic in any meaningful way. Both lacked substance.

Overall, I'd give Mccain a small victory for the debate itself.. if that's a "win" for Obama, I can concede that. I think Mr. Obama was fortunate to have so much of the debate dwell on an insubstantial discussion on economy. While Obama didn't say anything of real substance, his phrasing would certainly be popular to the masses.

[NO Obamanation]

I think McCain came across as a bitter and vindictive vietnam vet with blinders on and a myopic mission of "winning Iraq no matter what the cost".

And of course with Iran, China and Russia circling our dying economy like vultures we cannot afford that cost.

Which makes McCain dangerous for America. So naturally you all will vote him into office like you did his erratic and myopic self-absorbed twin Dubya.

We don't need any more cowboys. The world will not tolerate it. And what's more, we are placed in a position, by those very cowboys themselves, of not being able to dictate to the world what it can and cannot do with regards to us anymore.

Thanks GOP. And no thanks to McCain.

The polls reflect the American people shot Obama way over the top on the "win" of last night's debate. No one is playing dumb when it came to McCain's cowardly, transparent and erratic attempt to dodge the debate beforehand. The majority of Americans, apparently, are done listening to him on any area except Iraq and even those numbers are falling..

I disagree, but that is what is so great about America


McCain smiled a lot, though he does have a hard smile... I will give you that.
Obama looked fustrated, he was making some seriously weird expressions. Torking and twisting his face. I watched it on fox and they did the split screen, I dont know if they did that on other channels, but when McCain spoke Obama was not happy, making faces. Rolled his eyes a couple of times. I think he looked about as presidential as I would. NOT at all!

[top gun]

I was trying to be open minded judging the debate by at least saying McCain stayed in it, but he still lost... because I went in as an Obama supporter.

But all day the airwaves have been pointing to McCain's mean spirited unpresidential demeanor and something that's true but I didn't really catch it as much as it must have resonated.

After Senator Obama went down the list line by line of wrong decision after wrong decision McCain made backing Bush and promising an EASY VICTORY going into the invasion of Iraq.

McCain kept attempting to gain some credibility going back over and over about staying in Iraq and the surge working.

Almost everyone today is saying that was a huge mistake coming off this current economic crisis. Reminding people that you want to stay longer @ up to $12 BILLION DOLLARS per month when they're being told they have a $700 BILLION DOLLAR bailout coming at them was political suicide if you have any hope at getting any Independents.

Not my words... that's just seems to be the prevailing take... and after thinking about it I agree. McCain lost bigger than what I originally thought.

[NO Obamanation]

I was trying to be open minded judging the debate by at least saying McCain stayed in it, but he still lost... because I went in as an Obama supporter.

But all day the airwaves have been pointing to McCain's mean spirited unpresidential demeanor and something that's true but I didn't really catch it as much as it must have resonated.

After Senator Obama went down the list line by line of wrong decision after wrong decision McCain made backing Bush and promising an EASY VICTORY going into the invasion of Iraq.

McCain kept attempting to gain some credibility going back over and over about staying in Iraq and the surge working.

Almost everyone today is saying that was a huge mistake coming off this current economic crisis. Reminding people that you want to stay longer @ up to $12 BILLION DOLLARS per month when they're being told they have a $700 BILLION DOLLAR bailout coming at them was political suicide if you have any hope at getting any Independents.

Not my words... that's just seems to be the prevailing take... and after thinking about it I agree. McCain lost bigger than what I originally thought.

for the second time in two threads

what did you think of Obama's answer to "what will you cut program wise in light of the new bail out?"

could you tell me Obama's brilliant answer on this one please because I did not hear it and I listened a number of times

[BigRob]

More ironic commentary on the debate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrYPJUqOxM)

Obama spent much of the debate simply agreeing with McCain. Even Chris Matthews was wondering why.

[BigRob]

I was trying to be open minded judging the debate by at least saying McCain stayed in it, but he still lost... because I went in as an Obama supporter.

But all day the airwaves have been pointing to McCain's mean spirited unpresidential demeanor and something that's true but I didn't really catch it as much as it must have resonated.

You did not catch it, but a talking head told you it was so, so therefore it must be true!


After Senator Obama went down the list line by line of wrong decision after wrong decision McCain made backing Bush and promising an EASY VICTORY going into the invasion of Iraq.

McCain kept attempting to gain some credibility going back over and over about staying in Iraq and the surge working.

As McCain correctly pointed out the next President is not going to have to deal with is Iraq was the correct call, the next President will have to deal with what to do about it.


Almost everyone today is saying that was a huge mistake coming off this current economic crisis. Reminding people that you want to stay longer @ up to $12 BILLION DOLLARS per month when they're being told they have a $700 BILLION DOLLAR bailout coming at them was political suicide if you have any hope at getting any Independents.

When asked what spending this would cause to be cut, Obama offered no specifics, and actually spoke of more spending. McCain offered actual examples. such as no ethanol subsidies, and fixed cost defense contracts.


Not my words... that's just seems to be the prevailing take... and after thinking about it I agree. McCain lost bigger than what I originally thought.

I am glad you had to wait until a talking head validated your opinion before you had confidence in it. Way to have self-confidence there. :rolleyes:

[NO Obamanation]

More ironic commentary on the debate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrYPJUqOxM)

Obama spent much of the debate simply agreeing with McCain. Even Chris Matthews was wondering why.

That was so funny, I am glad I got to see part one,

thank you Rob

[Sihouette]

McCain smiled a lot, though he does have a hard smile... I will give you that.~ No Obamanation

Actually, when McCain "smiles" it makes my flesh crawl. I've seen more authentic compassion coming from the rattlers we used to catch as kids in the desert.

This just in: Russians have one of their largest battleships cruising around the waters by Venezuela, along with an escort armada. That's just a short cruise to our strategic refineries and oil reserves folks. They're preparing to nukify Venezuela...you know...so they can have power plants.

Our official response? [paraphrased] "Oh, if the Russians want to cruise around with Venezuela, that's their business.."

That's coming from the GOP folks. I remember 30 years ago if that had happened, given the situation in Georgia, we would be on red alert. Now it barely gets a passing mention after the story about the cat stuck in a tree on the evening news.

Translation: we're in deep trouble and the GOP's ransacking of our military and our economy with their bed-buddies BigOil have been the worst terrorist attacks on America since it's very beginnings. They've left us sitting ducks with our shorts down and Russia knocking on the back door. There's a reason they don't want to spend time getting to the bottom of our wrecked economy....because it will be traced back to the GOP's alliance with BigOil and their illegal war in Iraq.

And McCain is one of THEM. Following the line of breadcrumbs, if you vote for McCain, you are a traitor and not even remotely close to what the original meaning of patriot is.

[NO Obamanation]

if you vote for McCain, you are a traitor and not even remotely close to what the original meaning of patriot is.

and the alternative is?

[Mr. Carpenter]

and the alternative is?

Don't fall for that No Obamanation, it's nothing but typical liberal junk. Don't allow them to distract you, that's what they do when they know that they're cornered like a rat and have no room to move, so they play their little misdirection game in the hopes that you'll look away long enough for them to get away. Stay the course, keep 'em cornered, and kick 'em to death!

[NO Obamanation]

Don't fall for that No Obamanation, it's nothing but typical liberal junk. Don't allow them to distract you, that's what they do when they know that they're cornered like a rat and have no room to move, so they play their little misdirection game in the hopes that you'll look away long enough for them to get away. Stay the course, keep 'em cornered, and kick 'em to death!

Well the thing is this. Silouette is in the top two for railing against Obama since as long as I have been reading her post, now I am trying to find out if she is endorsing him after all the things she said about him.

[top gun]

for the second time in two threads

what did you think of Obama's answer to "what will you cut program wise in light of the new bail out?"

could you tell me Obama's brilliant answer on this one please because I did not hear it and I listened a number of times

Neither candidate would go out on a limb and get way specific on cuts. Both said cut waste (standard political line... exactly what Bush said). That's actually understandable because at the time of the debate no one new exactly the make up of the bailout.

Senator Obama brought up bringing the occupation in Iraq to a responsible end and stop wasting $10+ BILLION DOLLARS per month there while they themselves have a $79 BILLION DOLLAR surplus.

Senator Obama also explained cutting out corporate tax loopholes that reward companies for moving jobs over seas... and cutting subsidies (Corporate Welfare) to Big Oil already making record profits. And he said he go over all budget items looking to make cuts of programs that either weren't working or could work better in some other form.

He actually talked about this for quite a while I'm surprised you missed it.

[BigRob]

Neither candidate would go out on a limb and get way specific on cuts. Both said cut waste (standard political line... exactly what Bush said). That's actually understandable because at the time of the debate no one new exactly the make up of the bailout.

Senator Obama brought up bringing the occupation in Iraq to a responsible end and stop wasting $10+ BILLION DOLLARS per month there while they themselves have a $79 BILLION DOLLAR surplus.

Senator Obama also explained cutting out corporate tax loopholes that reward companies for moving jobs over seas... and cutting subsidies (Corporate Welfare) to Big Oil already making record profits. And he said he go over all budget items looking to make cuts of programs that either weren't working or could work better in some other form.

He actually talked about this for quite a while I'm surprised you missed it.

Obama talked about more education (spending), college for all (spending), making people buy US cars (spending), alternative energy (spending).

McCain said he would cut ethanol subsidies totally (savings), and get back to fixed cost defense contracts (savings).

It would appear Obama had not done his homework... maybe it was above his pay grade of course. :rolleyes:

[top gun]

BigRob;63636]You did not catch it, but a talking head told you it was so, so therefore it must be true!

I'm admittedly partisan. I take all these McCain policy mistakes as a given. But I was rather shocked that McCain's own cheerleaders on the Right pointed out how McCain made several huge campaign mistakes in this debate.

As McCain correctly pointed out the next President is not going to have to deal with is Iraq was the correct call, the next President will have to deal with what to do about it.

Is there anybody that doesn't realize this? Senator Obama & McCain both obviously know this situation exists.

What happened is Senator Obama pinned McCain to the mat listing vote after vote from the beginning of the invasion of Iraq where McCain made one absolute mistake after another (often siding with Bush).

McCain's whole hope is that he can fool the American people to believe the War started with the "surge" which of course it did not. What Senator Obama is saying that people can relate to is this...

A) I tell you not to take my car out drunk driving. But you say things will be fine it will be easy to drive everybody home. So against my objections you still take my car out drunk driving... and drive that car into a lake.

B) The passengers you had with you in my car die.

C) You try to back the car out of the lake yourself but just obviously cannot do it alone.

D) You then finally call everyone for help, Police, Para-Medics, and a Heavy Towing Service (a surge).

E) Then if you're John McCain you declare VICTORY because you yourself came up with a plan to get the car out of the lake! It is the most preposterous argument I have EVER heard!:eek:

John McCain has degenerated his entire campaign to a one trick pony like Rudy Giuliani did with 9-11. As Joe Biden rightfully said Rudy's whole campaign was a noun, a verb and 9-11. That's simply what McCain is doing... a noun, a verb and "the surge".

It just won't fly and reminding the nation you want to stay as long as possible at this huge bleed off of American Taxpayers Dollars considering our tough economic times at home was kinda stupid... and I'm glad that the Right pointed that out.

When asked what spending this would cause to be cut, Obama offered no specifics, and actually spoke of more spending. McCain offered actual examples. such as no ethanol subsidies, and fixed cost defense contracts.

Sure he did and I posted them in the above post.

I am glad you had to wait until a talking head validated your opinion before you had confidence in it. Way to have self-confidence there.

Like I said before I was trying my hardest to be objective. I'm not interested in how Keith Olberman fans (of which I'm one ;)) see these debates. I'm interested in how Independents look at these debates. And if I see even the Right condemning McCain you're damn sure I'm going to say it's noteworthy!:)

BREAKING STAT: As I'm typing I'm listening to these poll results on TV... Obama won the debate by 12 points 46-34... overall polling lead average (combined polls) has went up to 5 and is expected to be up to a projected 8 by tomorrow looking at the early results of the polling averages coming out for tomorrow.

[top gun]

Obama talked about more education (spending), college for all (spending), making people buy US cars (spending), alternative energy (spending).

McCain said he would cut ethanol subsidies totally (savings), and get back to fixed cost defense contracts (savings).

It would appear Obama had not done his homework... maybe it was above his pay grade of course. :rolleyes:

Senator Obama talked about both things he would like to see improved and things he would like to see cut.

If he didn't do his homework:D... that says John McCain skipped class completely because the polls are trending even more Senator Obama's way SINCE THE DEBATE! From and average of almost 3 before the debate to 5 today to a projected 8 coming out tomorrow (MSNBC morning news 9/28/08).

[NO Obamanation]

Neither candidate would go out on a limb and get way specific on cuts. Both said cut waste (standard political line... exactly what Bush said). That's actually understandable because at the time of the debate no one new exactly the make up of the bailout.

Senator Obama brought up bringing the occupation in Iraq to a responsible end and stop wasting $10+ BILLION DOLLARS per month there while they themselves have a $79 BILLION DOLLAR surplus.

Senator Obama also explained cutting out corporate tax loopholes that reward companies for moving jobs over seas... and cutting subsidies (Corporate Welfare) to Big Oil already making record profits. And he said he go over all budget items looking to make cuts of programs that either weren't working or could work better in some other form.

He actually talked about this for quite a while I'm surprised you missed it.

Programs

the question was

what of your proposed PROGRAMS are you willing to cut. I think the mod settled for existing programs as well as proposed programs.

Iraq war is not a program and it doesnt matter if Obama cut the war on day one, he has already spent the money for the iraq war on his new PROGRAMS.

Obama has made it clear, we are going to continue to borrow the money from China for new programs just not war. Though he wants a bigger war in afganastan, not sure how he plans to pay for that since he has already said he will use Iraq war money on his new programs.

[BigRob]

[COLOR="Navy"]I'm admittedly partisan. I take all these McCain policy mistakes as a given. But I was rather shocked that McCain's own cheerleaders on the Right pointed out how McCain made several huge campaign mistakes in this debate.

From what I have seen most McCain supporters have been saying he did well, but as you say, it is all in how you interpret it.


Is there anybody that doesn't realize this? Senator Obama & McCain both obviously know this situation exists.

What happened is Senator Obama pinned McCain to the mat listing vote after vote from the beginning of the invasion of Iraq where McCain made one absolute mistake after another (often siding with Bush).

When you put what we knew then to what we know now in context. It made perfect sense to support the war. While yes this was a massive intelligence failure, I do not think that you can blame anyone for using what they viewed as good intelligence to make their decision.

Now that obviously we did not find WMD's that intelligence has come into question, but at the time, this was an unknown. I do not fault a legislator for acting on intelligence that was after the fact proved to be bad.


McCain's whole hope is that he can fool the American people to believe the War started with the "surge" which of course it did not. What Senator Obama is saying that people can relate to is this...

A) I tell you not to take my car out drunk driving. But you say things will be fine it will be easy to drive everybody home. So against my objections you still take my car out drunk driving... and drive that car into a lake.

B) The passengers you had with you in my car die.

C) You try to back the car out of the lake yourself but just obviously cannot do it alone.

D) You then finally call everyone for help, Police, Para-Medics, and a Heavy Towing Service (a surge).

E) Then if you're John McCain you declare VICTORY because you yourself came up with a plan to get the car out of the lake! It is the most preposterous argument I have EVER heard!:eek:

I do not think that is a fair assessment. I would liken it more to this:

1) You drive a car into a lake.
2) Half the people in the car are on the verge of death.
3) You say this is going so badly, so you say oh well, and bail out, leaving those to die. (Obama's plan)

or

3) Take swift action to change your course of action, and pull the almost dead out of the car, and then salvage the car.


John McCain has degenerated his entire campaign to a one trick pony like Rudy Giuliani did with 9-11. As Joe Biden rightfully said Rudy's whole campaign was a noun, a verb and 9-11. That's simply what McCain is doing... a noun, a verb and "the surge".

Sort of like "change" is for Obama? ;)

I do not think that is all McCain has to say about his campaign though either.


It just won't fly and reminding the nation you want to stay as long as possible at this huge bleed off of American Taxpayers Dollars considering our tough economic times at home was kinda stupid... and I'm glad that the Right pointed that out.

I admit that I have a foreign policy bias, but sometimes I think that our foreign interests are more important than making sure everyone goes to college...

Further, do not pretend that much of that money would be used here. Our spending will increase in Afghanistan as well as other foreign places. None of this takes into account the 800 billion dollar aid bill Obama is rushing through the Senate either.


Sure he did and I posted them in the above post

I do not think saying "we will look at the budget and decide from there" instills much confidence. I would rather here about actual concrete plans, such as the few McCain mentioned.


Like I said before I was trying my hardest to be objective. I'm not interested in how Keith Olberman fans (of which I'm one ;)) see these debates. I'm interested in how Independents look at these debates. And if I see even the Right condemning McCain you're damn sure I'm going to say it's noteworthy!:)

Well it is nice you are making the effort. From my personal point of view I was disappointed with many of Obama's answers, but that is my opinion of course.

I was also disappointed that they took a lot of focus off foreign policy (although it is understandable). Perhaps in the next debate we can make up for the lost time?

[Mr. Carpenter]

Senator Obama brought up bringing the occupation in Iraq to a responsible end and stop wasting $10+ BILLION DOLLARS per month there while they themselves have a $79 BILLION DOLLAR surplus.

I just love the way Democrats always target the military budget (especially during a time of war) for cuts, when they're steadily increasing spending on all of their favorite "give away" programs, especially when it's all of those "give away" programs that are what is primarily responsible for our Debt and Deficit.

Kinda makes you wonder who's side they're really on.

[Mr. Carpenter]

A) I tell you not to take my car out drunk driving. But you say things will be fine it will be easy to drive everybody home. So against my objections you still take my car out drunk driving... and drive that car into a lake.

B) The passengers you had with you in my car die.

C) You try to back the car out of the lake yourself but just obviously cannot do it alone.

D) You then finally call everyone for help, Police, Para-Medics, and a Heavy Towing Service (a surge).

E) Then if you're John McCain you declare VICTORY because you yourself came up with a plan to get the car out of the lake! It is the most preposterous argument I have EVER heard!:eek:


You've got John McCain confused with TEDDY KENNEDY!! And if I recall correctly, you Democrats weren't too anxious to prosecute him, so what's different now? Can we say H_P_O_C_R_I_T_E?!?!?!?!!?

[NO Obamanation]

You've got John McCain confused with TEDDY KENNEDY!! And if I recall correctly, you Democrats weren't too anxious to prosecute him, so what's different now? Can we say H_P_O_C_R_I_T_E?!?!?!?!!?

I thought he was talking about Ted Kennedy too
till he went to C. and tried to get the car out

by the time he went to D. and asked for help, I knew he wasnt talking about Ted since Ted let the woman die and ran.

[Popeye]

You've got John McCain confused with TEDDY KENNEDY!! And if I recall correctly, you Democrats weren't too anxious to prosecute him, so what's different now? Can we say H_P_O_C_R_I_T_E?!?!?!?!!?

Chappaquiddick happened in what, 1969? Going back 40 years is another sign of desperation.

[Mr. Carpenter]

Chappaquiddick happened in what, 1969? Going back 40 years is another sign of desperation.

No, it's evidence of context and institutional memory. Perhaps if you were old enough to remember it, you'd realize why it's still important today, after all, isn't Teddy STILL a member of the Congress? "Those who fail to learn from their history are doomed to repeat it", apparantly doesn't mean anything to libs, especially since so often it proves them to be liars, cheats, sodomites, murderers, and what Lenin called "useful idiots".

[Mr. Carpenter]

I thought he was talking about Ted Kennedy too
till he went to C. and tried to get the car out

by the time he went to D. and asked for help, I knew he wasnt talking about Ted since Ted let the woman die and ran.

Now now, let's be fair, Teddy did call for help, a few hours later :rolleyes:, but he did call for help. Also, they did pull the car out too, so the parallels are still there.

[NO Obamanation]

Chappaquiddick happened in what, 1969? Going back 40 years is another sign of desperation.

LOL so that makes it ok :)


you are so funny its almost cute

[NO Obamanation]

Now now, let's be fair, Teddy did call for help, a few hours later :rolleyes:, but he did call for help. Also, they did pull the car out too, so the parallels are still there.

well "they" as in some subservent police man not Kennedy

but ok

lets say its equal


Oh I wish I could laugh as easy for the rest of my day as I can here at the HOP