No more justification for torture

[PLC1]

Both presidential candidates seem to be in agreement that we must make sure that no more prisoners are tortured.

McCain: "And we've got to -- to make sure that we have people who are trained interrogators so that we don't ever torture a prisoner ever again."

Obama: “But because of some of the mistakes that have been made -- and I give Senator McCain great credit on the torture issue, for having identified that as something that undermines our long-term security -- because of those things, we, I think, are going to have a lot of work to do in the next administration to restore that sense that America is that shining beacon on a hill.”

From the presidential debate (http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/09/first_president.html)

[NO Obamanation]

I guess we can just tickle it out of them or ask really really extra nice :)

You know like say with sugar on top

[NO Obamanation]

If you give them a shot of that truth drug, is that considered torture? I am sure the really left wing people would consider that bad or wrong but what about the "normal" people in the middle. You know 2/3 of the country.

[Andy]

Well pretty much anything that might help prevent a terrorist attack is something we need to stop doing. ... to the left it seems.

You'll note that pop has never given what we should do to prevent a terrorist attack, just what we shouldn't.

[NO Obamanation]

none of them ever do

[BigRob]

Both presidential candidates seem to be in agreement that we must make sure that no more prisoners are tortured.

McCain: "And we've got to -- to make sure that we have people who are trained interrogators so that we don't ever torture a prisoner ever again."

To me this sounds like leaving the door open. Our interrogators are highly trained as it is. The rendition program already enables us not to torture anyone as it is.


Obama: “But because of some of the mistakes that have been made -- and I give Senator McCain great credit on the torture issue, for having identified that as something that undermines our long-term security -- because of those things, we, I think, are going to have a lot of work to do in the next administration to restore that sense that America is that shining beacon on a hill.”


This seems to leave the door open to me as well. Neither one of them says that torture will be done away with. Both of them leave the door open, and that is an important distinction.

[pocketfullofshells]

Well pretty much anything that might help prevent a terrorist attack is something we need to stop doing. ... to the left it seems.

You'll note that pop has never given what we should do to prevent a terrorist attack, just what we shouldn't.

No what we need to stop is retarded statements like yours that show you don't have a clue about Security, have no respect for international law, or the basic fact that we don't live on the show 24. you know who comes out against Torture? The Military, most CIA, and most FBI...all will tell you it does not work, and only opens our troops up to more harm if they are ever captured.

[BigRob]

No what we need to stop is retarded statements like yours that show you don't have a clue about Security, have no respect for international law, or the basic fact that we don't live on the show 24. you know who comes out against Torture? The Military, most CIA, and most FBI...all will tell you it does not work, and only opens our troops up to more harm if they are ever captured.

Well.. in fairness here, some in the military, the CIA, and the FBI will tell you it does not work.

[Mr. Carpenter]

We could always go back to using the interrogation techniques they used in Vietnam, just give 'em flying lessons. Seems to me that before 9-11 taking flying lessons was real big on some of their "bucket lists".

Take 60 or 80 of 'em up in a C-141 to about 15,000 ft., open the side doors, and ask 'em a few questions. If they don't answer you, or lie to you, toss 'em out and grab the next one in line, and repeat as necessary until you find out what you want to know. If they can learn to fly before they hit the ground, they're free to go back to doing what they were doing before we captured them, if not, it just sucks to be them, but at least we didn't "torture" them. Yup, that ought to make liberals happy.

[GenSeneca]

Torture... only opens our troops up to more harm if they are ever captured.
I don't buy that.... but it makes for a feel good soundbite.

Name one American soldier that has been captured and returned Alive. Point being, American Soldiers will get beaten, tortured and killed regardless of how ill, or well, detainees in American custody are treated.

----------------------------------------

Torture is horrendous but the idea that either McCain or Obama can prevent torture from EVER happening under their watch is absurd... They may as well be saying that during their administration, there will be no domestic crime of any kind either.

McCain pointing out interrogators is silly.... Interrogators have been guilty of only a few cases of torture while the overwhelming majority of torture took place at the hands of our Soldiers, who were supposed to be "Guarding" detainees.

Additionally... We don't need to torture people for info, we can just send them to one of our allies, like Saudi Arabia, and let some other country torture them... Or turn a blind eye while a soldier from another country tortures someone right there in the field.

[NO Obamanation]

I don't buy that.... but it makes for a feel good soundbite.

Name one American soldier that has been captured and returned Alive. Point being, American Soldiers will get beaten, tortured and killed regardless of how ill, or well, detainees in American custody are treated.

The enemy’s life has always mattered more than our own troops lives. There is no point in trying to compare the two. Our troops will always matter less than the bad guys in the eyes of the left.

It’s much like the life of a man who raped and murdered a child. The left will fight to save his life from the Death P. and even try to pass laws to give the man less time in prison. That mans life will always be more important than the victims life he took.

There is something warped and twisted about it

[Libsmasher]

Like most issues during this campaign silly season, the toture issue has not had a serious debate, and certainly not here.

[PLC1]

Like most issues during this campaign silly season, the toture issue has not had a serious debate, and certainly not here.

It's difficult to have a debate when both candidates are in agreement, isn't it?

I wonder who the pro torture crowd is going to vote for? It seems as if the issue is settled, regardless of which candidate becomes commander in chief. It looks like Bush will be the last pro torture pres, at least until the next election.

[Kool aid kid]

define torture please

[BigRob]

It's difficult to have a debate when both candidates are in agreement, isn't it?

I wonder who the pro torture crowd is going to vote for? It seems as if the issue is settled, regardless of which candidate becomes commander in chief. It looks like Bush will be the last pro torture pres, at least until the next election.

I don't buy it. Both of them left open rendition options. Both of them left open the idea that torture can happen. Simply that we will not do it. We already do that for the most part...

[Mr. Shaman]

define torture please
No prob. You'll have to settle for the 2003-version.

"Says "an official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists, 'If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job.' " Another official is quoted: "We don't kick the [expletive] out of them. We send them to other countries so they can kick the [expletive] out of them." The term for these transfers is "extraordinary renditions." There is, of course, no legal process; and among the foreign intelligence services who lend a brutal hand are those of Jordan, Egypt, and Morocco. At least once, torturers in Syria have been enlisted."

One official directly involved in these "renditions" to foreign torture chambers said in The Washington Post, "I do it . . . with my eyes open." According to the Post, another "Bush administration official said the CIA, in practice, is using a narrow definition of what counts as 'knowing' that a suspect has been tortured. 'If we're not there in the room, who is to say?' said one official conversant with recent reports of renditions."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-02-04/news/the-american-way-of-torture/1

2002 - "The US has been secretly sending prisoners suspected of al-Qaida connections to countries where torture during interrogation is legal, according to US diplomatic and intelligence sources. Prisoners moved to such countries as Egypt and Jordan can be subjected to torture and threats to their families to extract information sought by the US in the wake of the September 11 attacks.

The normal extradition procedures have been bypassed in the transportation of dozens of prisoners suspected of terrorist connections, according to a report in the Washington Post. The suspects have been taken to countries where the CIA has close ties with the local intelligence services and where torture is permitted."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/mar/12/september11.usa

Whatta grand legacy the Idiot Son has developed, for himself.

[GenSeneca]

No prob. You'll have to settle for the 2003-version.

What you have offered is not a "definition" in any sense of the word.

How would you extract information from suspects?

I don't want to hear more about what we SHOULD NOT do - be constructive and offer solutions.

[BigRob]

No prob. You'll have to settle for the 2003-version.





Whatta grand legacy the Idiot Son has developed, for himself.

Just so you know, Rendition programs started under Clinton...

[NO Obamanation]

No prob. You'll have to settle for the 2003-version.





Whatta grand legacy the Idiot Son has developed, for himself.

If you deny someone sleep and make them keep talking with lights on them for hours on end.....is that torture?

If you threaten them that you will do something if they dont tell you where the bomb or what ever it is you think they are hiding is... is that torture?

I am told by my liberal friends that those are means of torture. But when I ask ok, what would you do. they just complain about what is being done but never say what they would do

[BigRob]

If you deny someone sleep and make them keep talking with lights on them for hours on end.....is that torture?

If you threaten them that you will do something if they dont tell you where the bomb or what ever it is you think they are hiding is... is that torture?

I am told by my liberal friends that those are means of torture. But when I ask ok, what would you do. they just complain about what is being done but never say what they would do

What needs to be done is round up every suicide bomber (whatever is left of them), any insurgent that is killed in Iraq, and bury them in a pit of pig's blood.

Unclean Muslims are unable to go to paradise. The British tried this actually many years back and it worked. We should follow their lead.

[NO Obamanation]

What needs to be done is round up every suicide bomber (whatever is left of them), any insurgent that is killed in Iraq, and bury them in a pit of pig's blood.

Unclean Muslims are unable to go to paradise. The British tried this actually many years back and it worked. We should follow their lead.

I am sure that would sound like torture to the left, but I agree it would work. I think though it would also make non violent Muslims mad and that would not be good. But just being stronger and refusing to keep taking crap from these crazies would be a start.

I just wish America would get a strong back bone again. Every place I look the men have all morphed into freaking Allan Alda's and Phil Donahue's. More interested in the "feelings" of the terrorist that wants to behead your children than the freakin children. I think they are putting fem hormones in the bottled water or something.

[BigRob]

I am sure that would sound like torture to the left, but I agree it would work. I think though it would also make non violent Muslims mad and that would not be good. But just being stronger and refusing to keep taking crap from these crazies would be a start.

It might have that effect. But at the same time I think we need to worry about winning the war, to do that we need to actually do what it takes to win.

If my history serves me correctly, Pershing actually did it as well. Just before World War I, he executed 49 of 50 Muslim extremists in his custody and let the last one go. They were not attacked again.

This was of course all before the Geneva Conventions, however before we decided to ratify Protocol III without signing for the very reason we are now facing, this would continue to be acceptable in times of war.

[Mr. Carpenter]

Anybody hear of SEER?

[PLC1]

define torture please

Torture is what the expert says it is.

John McCain is an expert, having experienced it first hand.

[Mr. Carpenter]

Torture is what the expert says it is.

John McCain is an expert, having experienced it first hand.

Then I guess it's a good thing that we haven't been doing to our prisoners what the NVA did to McCain, which means that we haven't been torturing anyone! Thanks for clearing that up for us.:D

[PLC1]

Then I guess it's a good thing that we haven't been doing to our prisoners what the NVA did to McCain, which means that we haven't been torturing anyone! Thanks for clearing that up for us.:D

Well, McCain said that what we've been doing constitutes torture, and he's the expert, as I've said.

Do you have first hand experience, so you can refute McCain's estimation of what constitutes torture?

I don't, so I won't.

[Mr. Carpenter]

Well, McCain said that what we've been doing constitutes torture, and he's the expert, as I've said.

Do you have first hand experience, so you can refute McCain's estimation of what constitutes torture?

I don't, so I won't.

I went through the predecessor of SEER school, and what they did to us there was FAR worse than anything I've heard of us doing to the terrorists/insurgents (GCIII "unlawful combatants"), so on that point I will take some issue with Sen. McCain.

[PLC1]

Anybody hear of SEER?

No, and a google of the term yielded the following:

Sponsored LinksWhat HVAC system is best?
A Free Primer for energy decisions A "Must Read" before selecting HVAC
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Seer Rating
Buy Air Conditioners. Compare Prices and Save.
PriceGrabber.comMore Sponsored Links For: SEER
Web ResultsSEER Web Site
A program of the National Cancer Institute, SEER is a source of information on cancer incidence and survival in the United States.

seer.cancer.gov/ - 12k - Similar pages

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Information for Cancer Registrars
SEER - providing information on cancer statistics to help reduce the cancer ... NCI SEER promotes and guides cancer registrars to improve cancer registry ...

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Seasonal energy efficiency ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyc...
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Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer". Categories: Disambiguation pages. Hidden category: All disambiguation pages ...

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Contains Web-based training modules for cancer data collectors.

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Super Seer for Motorcycle Helmets
Super Seer, a custom motorcycle helmet, ski and snowmobile goggle manufacture. Helmets for law enforcement and touring.

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- s e e r - [www.seerband.com]
2006 seer. all rights reserved. | drummer361 web site design. NaN. undefined ( NaN:NaN). -. 1. undefined (NaN:NaN). -. NaN. undefined (NaN:NaN) ...

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Sponsored LinksWhat HVAC system is best?
A Free Primer for energy decisions A "Must Read" before selecting HVAC
www.johnrwhite.net/load%20ca
Seer Air Condition
Buy Top Brand Air Conditioners at Below Market Prices at Auth. Dealer
www.AJMadison.com/Air_Conditioners

Cancer school? Air conditioning? What?:confused:

[Mr. Carpenter]

OOPS! Sorry, it would appear that I developed a bad case of CRS disease (or dislexic fingers) as far as the acronym, the correct one is S.E.R.E. (Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape). It's an advanced survival school for (primarily) training air crews how to survive if they're downed behind enemy lines, and what to expect, and how to deal with it (including torture) if you're captured. They also train Special Forces, Rangers, TACP, CCT, PJ's, Force Recon, SEALS, and a lot of other troops that might find themselves in similar situations.

When I went through (as a fresh, snot nosed 19 year old A1C), it was still primarily an Air Force School (at least in my class, we only had one Army guy), but they were running classes through of all Army, Navy, and Marine air crew members, as well as special operations people. I understand that today, each of the services has it's own schools, and it's own training regiment specialized around their missions.