Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years

[T3sting]

"MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.
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The 67-year-old Zundel, who was deported from Canada in 2005, was convicted on 14 counts of inciting hatred for years of anti-Semitic activities, including contributing to a Web site devoted to denying the Holocaust — a crime in Germany."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/germany_incitement_trial


What kind of crime is that?

[Quirky]

I have to agree. I am Jewish, my great-grandfather died in Nazi Germany. However, I have a real problem with throwing people in jail for taking an unpopular position. Ignorance can be dangerous, and it is certainly annoying, but it isn't a crime (yet).

[Vlad]

Yeah.

I don't see why a person should be put in jail because of a belief.

That's the same as killing other people for believing in another religion.

[Abe Bird]

Denial the holocaust is not a belief but a preposterous action. If you can approve scientifically that Jews hide corns behind their ears and tails on their rear it won't be Anti Semitic remark but a factual one. But if you say that Jews have tails. The nature of Anti Semitism is a dangerous folklore which based on rumors, conspiracy theories and other imaginary products of the hate's beholders. A culture can't exist on biased facts which proven to cause death. Anti Semitism is dangerous not only to Jews but to all human kind. Now when the Jews have their on political and military power it will be wise for us if we kill Anti Semites at their birth, in order to keep the world clean and safe. In the Holocaust we stood by and watched silently how Nazis murder 6 million Jews. Since the Holocaust, 30 millions innocent civilians had been murdered by their own regimes http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/483/521.html. Hate is the most dangerous weapon human kind ever invented. And as had been already proven, the fire can't be controlled the moment it burst.

[drippinhun]

I don't believe those who question the extent or the causation of the Holocaust should be denied their forum. While at least 3 billion people have died since the Holocaust, the 30 million who have died since then hasn't been a result of hatred, rather the quest for power. Destroy power, not people is the only real path.

[steveox]

Yeah.

I don't see why a person should be put in jail because of a belief.

That's the same as killing other people for believing in another religion.


Isnt that what the old soviet union did?

[mustardayonnaise]

I agree that Holocaust deniers shouldn't be prosecuted for their beliefs or words, but I can understand where the Germans are coming from on this one. I live in Germany and one thing I've noticed since moving here that I wasn't aware of before coming over is the level of guilt and shame that the country as a whole feels over the Holocaust. You don't notice it on an individual level, but it's always behind the scenes at a national level. The Germans are by nature a very officious people; they like everything regulated and orderly. So when someone comes out publicly and denies that the Holocaust even happened it makes the rest of the country happy. Generally the Germans don't feel it's harsh to lock someone up for Holocaust denial; it's something that nobody should do, so they see it as punishable.

[lipmonkey]

Ernst Zundel's real crime seems to be inciting hatred more so than just denying the holocaust ever happened. After looking into his background it seems this guy isn't playing with a full deck.

It seems Ernest a.k.a Christof Friedrich, also wrote several publications promoting the idea that UFOs are really secret weapons of Nazis who had fled to Neu-Schwabenland in Antarctica. The UFOs supposedly monitored humanity and were part of a secret plan to re-conquer the world at an unspecified time.

[drippinhun]

To me the best solution would have been to invite Mr. Zundel on television and let him present his evidence so it could be challenged. Like with my country's position regarding Cuba, to me if we are correct, then it should be no problem with me being allowed to see for myself what I've been told. But to hide and bury this without open tests, suggests something is being hidden. Not an intelligent method to assuage doubt.

[Beetle Bailey]

Funny how people leap at the opportunity to defend someone's right to say anything. No matter what. As if anti semitism and holocaust denial has any intellectual capital at all. Like it's just another academic argument. Five years isn't enough. I hope he gets shanked in prison while giving one of his lectures. That would be justice.

[drippinhun]

Funny how people leap at the opportunity to defend someone's right to say anything. No matter what. As if anti semitism and holocaust denial has any intellectual capital at all. Like it's just another academic argument. Five years isn't enough. I hope he gets shanked in prison while giving one of his lectures. That would be justice.

Nice. And what country do you represent? Surely not the US and that little thing called freedom of speech.

[Kwaku]

Freedom of speech is especially important when it comes to opinions that shock and offend: Shutting people up is never a good idea, it'll only give this weirdo and his supporters the moral high ground and I guess nobody could want that?

[Sadistic Savior]

Ernst Zundel's real crime seems to be inciting hatred more so than just denying the holocaust ever happened.

He wasnt convicted for inciting hatred. He was convicted for denying the holocaust.

After looking into his background it seems this guy isn't playing with a full deck.

So what? He shouldnt be allowed to speak because you think what he has to say is crazy?

If its crazy, wont it be obvious to everyone?

To me the best solution would have been to invite Mr. Zundel on television and let him present his evidence so it could be challenged.

Which is how we handle them in America. White supreamists here have made parodies of themselves on shows like Jerry Springer. Thats why they have no power here.

When you try to restrict their speech, you give their words power. Young people, who are naturally rebellious anyway, will assume you are trying to hide something from them.

Their ideology is inferior and their claims are not supported by the existing evidence. Thats why I am not afraid of what they have to say. Leave it to Europeans to make opinions a crime.

Funny how people leap at the opportunity to defend someone's right to say anything. No matter what.

Why is that funny?

As if anti semitism and holocaust denial has any intellectual capital at all. Like it's just another academic argument.

Who gets to decide which opinions should be against the law? Would you like the Republicans to be in charge of such laws?

You people are such hypocrites.

[Beetle Bailey]

Nice. And what country do you represent? Surely not the US and that little thing called freedom of speech.

I wasn't aware that anyone here "represented" any country. Do you have diplomatic status? Do you lobby for a foriegn government? No one here represents anything but their own opinions. Oh, and by the way. Actual freedom of speech doesn't exist anywhere. Do you really believe that it is legal to say what ever you want, where ever you want, when ever you want? No, of course not. So I guess then it's not really a matter of principal but merely one of context and degree. The pompous horse **** just never stops.

[Sadistic Savior]

Do you really believe that it is legal to say what ever you want, where ever you want, when ever you want?

All freedom of speech means is that you can express your opinion freely.

Yes, in the US you can freely express any opinion you want. The fact that you dont have the right to express it in my kitchen doesnt mean you dont have free speech.

In Europe they have effectively criminalized certain opinions. Not actions, but opinions.

[Abraxis Axis]

your free to say or think whatever you want

you just have to then deal with the consequences

[drippinhun]

I wasn't aware that anyone here "represented" any country. Do you have diplomatic status? Do you lobby for a foriegn government? No one here represents anything but their own opinions. Oh, and by the way. Actual freedom of speech doesn't exist anywhere. Do you really believe that it is legal to say what ever you want, where ever you want, when ever you want? No, of course not. So I guess then it's not really a matter of principal but merely one of context and degree. The pompous horse **** just never stops.

It is not legal to verbally incite action that may cause danger. But asking for unconventional opinions about events hardly qualifies in the same category as yelling "fire" in a theater or cheerleading a crowd to pummel some homosexual or abortion clinic worker.

[Beetle Bailey]

I wonder how many of these people get upset about burning the American flag in protest? Freedom of speech, isn't it?

[drippinhun]

Fires can be dangerous. Hurting one's feelings is tough, but not a crime.

[SW85]

A culture can't exist on biased facts which proven to cause death.

First of all, "facts" don't cause death, it's people's actions that are justified by "facts" that cause them.

And second, didn't you just say you anti-Semitism isn't a fact?

And third, tolerating the existence of anti-Semitism is not "basing a culture" on it.

(EDIT: And fourth, a "fact" cannot be said to be "biased").

Now when the Jews have their on political and military power it will be wise for us if we kill Anti Semites at their birth, in order to keep the world clean and safe.

Because English is clearly not your first language, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mangled whatever it was you were trying to say here. So, what exactly were you trying to say there?

I don't believe those who question the extent or the causation of the Holocaust should be denied their forum. While at least 3 billion people have died since the Holocaust, the 30 million who have died since then hasn't been a result of hatred, rather the quest for power. Destroy power, not people is the only real path.

Is there something about this thread that's destroying people's ability to articulate coherent sentences in English?

I wonder how many of these people get upset about burning the American flag in protest? Freedom of speech, isn't it?

There's a difference between "getting upset" and thinking that a form of expression shouldn't be allowed at all without serious (and possibly life-ending) punishments.

I get upset about flag burning. But I don't support laws against flag burning (except maybe municipal ordnances that regulate it for safety purposes). But then again, the title of the article is not, "Holocaust Denier Upsets People." The man actually went to jail, where in all likelihood he will die.

The implication of the argument you just made is that anti-flag-burners are hypocrites if they support this guy's free speech. But that road cuts both ways. Do you oppose anti-flag-burning laws? If so, you're at least as much a hypocrite, by your own logic.

[ilikeboobs]

"MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.
ADVERTISEMENT

The 67-year-old Zundel, who was deported from Canada in 2005, was convicted on 14 counts of inciting hatred for years of anti-Semitic activities, including contributing to a Web site devoted to denying the Holocaust — a crime in Germany."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/germany_incitement_trial


What kind of crime is that?


Looks like the thought police are alive and well in Euro-trash land.
And the liberals want to be more like europe? There go our freedoms...
Oh wait, we already have hate crimes legislation. We're almost there.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Looks like the thought police are alive and well in Euro-trash land.
And the liberals want to be more like europe? There go our freedoms...
Oh wait, we already have hate crimes legislation. We're almost there.

Looking at your signature quote..........you should be talking to the filthy rich Catholic Church.

[ilikeboobs]

Looking at your signature quote..........you should be talking to the filthy rich Catholic Church.


Talking to the filthy rich Catholic Church about what?

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Talking to the filthy rich Catholic Church about what?

It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish - Mother Theresa

[Segep]

Funny how people leap at the opportunity to defend someone's right to say anything. No matter what. As if anti semitism and holocaust denial has any intellectual capital at all. Like it's just another academic argument. Five years isn't enough. I hope he gets shanked in prison while giving one of his lectures. That would be justice.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, still I feel it is stupid to lock people up for simply being stupid.

[ilikeboobs]

It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish - Mother Theresa


I should talk to the Catholic Church about that? Why? They're against abortion, just as Mother Theresa was. Are you saying I should just sit down and have a nice, leisurely chat with the Pope about the goings-on of today?

Chicks dig me because I rule. :D

[KeepOurFreedoms]

I should talk to the Catholic Church about that? Why? They're against abortion, just as Mother Theresa was. Are you saying I should just sit down and have a nice, leisurely chat with the Pope about the goings-on of today?

Chicks dig me because I rule. :D

What does abortion have to do with your quote?

[Segep]

I think Mother Theresa was speaking about the West's indifference to world poverty, not abortion. Though I don't know that for sure.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

I think Mother Theresa was speaking about the West's indifference to world poverty, not abortion. Though I don't know that for sure.

I don't think it has anything to do with abortion either. The BOOB brought it up to distract from the fact that the Catholic Church is filthy rich and doesn't care about those in poverty.

[USMC the Almighty]

I don't think it has anything to do with abortion either. The BOOB brought it up to distract from the fact that the Catholic Church is filthy rich and doesn't care about those in poverty.

It definitely pertains to abortion. That's one of the most famous anti-abortion quotes of all time. It's well known that she was talking about abortion and a quick google search will reveal this.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

It definitely pertains to abortion. That's one of the most famous anti-abortion quotes of all time. It's well known that she was talking about abortion and a quick google search will reveal this.

Then the quote doesn't make sense. Still the Catholic church is filthy rich and ignores poverty.

[Coyote]

Then the quote doesn't make sense. Still the Catholic church is filthy rich and ignores poverty.

Wow, you sure hate Catholics.

[USMC the Almighty]

Then the quote doesn't make sense. Still the Catholic church is filthy rich and ignores poverty.

The quote makes perfect sense. "It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." She's saying that it's a "poverty" that women kill children just because it poses a potential inconvenience to them.

Now, your upside down flag... that doesn't make any sense.

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Wow, you sure hate Catholics.

Why would you lie like that? The Catholic church is filthy rich. Do you deny that??

[KeepOurFreedoms]

It is a signal that our country is in distress.

.....

[ilikeboobs]

Why would you lie like that? The Catholic church is filthy rich. Do you deny that??


No more rich than the teachers unions, the labor unions and the lawyer organizations. The catholic church's money comes from it's members, who choose to give their money to continue the mission of the church. Why are you so jealous of Catholics?

Why don't you reply to my original post that our freedoms are going away, not unlike the way they've eroded in Europe thanks to the thought police...

I'm new here - I want to see some real debate/argument, not some unwarranted, unrelated attacks on someone's religion.

[Segep]

No more rich than the teachers unions, the labor unions and the lawyer organizations.

You're kidding, right? How many teacher's unions do you know that own vast amounts of property and gigantic structures around the world? How many teacher's unions threaten to hold a soul in Purgatory until the family pays up?

[ilikeboobs]

You're kidding, right? How many teacher's unions do you know that own vast amounts of property and gigantic structures around the world? How many teacher's unions threaten to hold a soul in Purgatory until the family pays up?


Yes, they have big buildings - all privately funded by people who willingly give money to pay for it. So what? If I were a poor African I could say the same of you - you own a house? Well then you must be filthy rich.

Oh - and the Church, FYI, can't threaten to hold a soul in purgatory. Only God decides where you go when you die. Human beings don't have that kind of power.

And once again I ask - Why don't you reply to my original post that our freedoms are going away, not unlike the way they've eroded in Europe thanks to the thought police...

[Segep]

And once again I ask - Why don't you reply to my original post that our freedoms are going away, not unlike the way they've eroded in Europe thanks to the thought police...

You are 100% keerect. Our freedoms are going away, bit by bit. So slowly that we won't even notice until it's too late.

http://personalinfomediary.com/USAPATRIOTACT_Text.htm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html

[9sublime]

You think America has more freedoms than Europe? I admit, everywhere, peoples freedoms are being taken away bit by bit, and people kid themselves they are not.

Well don't kid yourself, America isn't the free nation above all others. You have a far more intrusive police force, whilst a lot of Europe is still very good. Eastern Europe, for example, gives people much more personal freedom, even if the police force is a bit more unregulated.

You have just as much, if not more "thought police" than Western Europe.

[ilikeboobs]

You think America has more freedoms than Europe? I admit, everywhere, peoples freedoms are being taken away bit by bit, and people kid themselves they are not.

Well don't kid yourself, America isn't the free nation above all others. You have a far more intrusive police force, whilst a lot of Europe is still very good. Eastern Europe, for example, gives people much more personal freedom, even if the police force is a bit more unregulated.

You have just as much, if not more "thought police" than Western Europe.



I'll agree with you to a point. We have our own thought police - they're just a little different from yours. Though I do believe we have many more rights than you - the right to own firearms being one of them. The right to say that you don't think the holocaust happened is another...

No one should have to go to jail for thinking something. If that were the case, then there should be millions of muslims in prison for chanting "Death to America!" and "Death to Europe!" Guess it's OK for their thoughts to be uttered in public, but not someone else's.

It's funny how liberalism works. They'll bully anyone they can, as long as they know they won't fight back. Muslims are off their list because they're afraid of having their heads sawed off. Gays are off the list because gays protest VERY loudly. Go down the list of "protected classes"....

[Segep]

Gays are off the list because gays protest VERY loudly.

I PROTEST! MODERATOR! WAAAAAAHHHHH

[9sublime]

ilikeboobs (intelligent posts considering your username), although you may have more rights than us laid out for you, your access to them is more restricted.

[SW85]

What does abortion have to do with your quote?

What does his quote have to do with a Holocaust denier?

Well don't kid yourself, America isn't the free nation above all others. You have a far more intrusive police force, whilst a lot of Europe is still very good.

A more intrusive police force then what? Britain, where talking street cameras scold passersby for antisocial behavior? Or France, where sections of Paris have declared their independence from the rest of the country?

[9sublime]

A more intrusive police force then what? Britain, where talking street cameras scold passersby for antisocial behavior?

So America doesn't have CCTV? America doesn't pursue and charge people for anti social behaviour caught on CCTV?



Or France, where sections of Paris have declared their independence from the rest of the country?

That has nothing to do with an intrusive police force, and I don't even know where you got that from.

[Rokerijdude11]

You think America has more freedoms than Europe? I admit, everywhere, peoples freedoms are being taken away bit by bit, and people kid themselves they are not.

Well don't kid yourself, America isn't the free nation above all others. You have a far more intrusive police force, whilst a lot of Europe is still very good. Eastern Europe, for example, gives people much more personal freedom, even if the police force is a bit more unregulated.

You have just as much, if not more "thought police" than Western Europe.

This is the most correct statement you have ever made in my eyes dude.....I am 100% in agreement with you here. I am an American But I have travelled extensivly throughout Europe and the western Pacific..........

I have stated in the past here as well as other forums that The United states only percieves its freedoms as the most free.This is Unfortunatly quite some way from the truth of the matter..

at this point i still find the Netherlands as the Freest country in the world that i have been too.....there is far more true personal freedom in Holland and many european countries.......the remark on our police is "Spot On" 9
we have what is increasingly known as a police state

[SW85]

So America doesn't have CCTV? America doesn't pursue and charge people for anti social behaviour caught on CCTV?

What are you going to trot out to justify this grotesque exaggeration?

I don't think you understand the fact that the UK is the most heavily-watched nation in the world, far more so than even the despotic police states of east Asia.

That has nothing to do with an intrusive police force, and I don't even know where you got that from.

It has nothing to do with the police at all unfortunately, hence the continued unrest that plagues the immigrant barrios of Paris to this day. If you haven't heard of it then you are so woefully under-informed of current events that I waste my time even responding to you.

[9sublime]

What are you going to trot out to justify this grotesque exaggeration?

I don't think you understand the fact that the UK is the most heavily-watched nation in the world, far more so than even the despotic police states of east Asia.

Maybe because England is a small island compared to the large states of East asia, and that all of England is inhabited (the most remote place in England is 3 miles away from the nearest development). Maybe because we have better technology than East Asia?

I'm not saying England isn't bad... my point is just that America is worse. Maybe not on CCTV, but you suffer from more personal intrusion and restriction of freedoms, whilst (as Roker said), having a perception of being very free.

Thanks Roker, glad we agree on a very pressing issue.




It has nothing to do with the police at all unfortunately, hence the continued unrest that plagues the immigrant barrios of Paris to this day. If you haven't heard of it then you are so woefully under-informed of current events that I waste my time even responding to you.

Alright mate, chill your beans. The discussion had moved onto the Big Brother elements of the USA and the US and you come out with something unrelated.