Best Battle in WW2

[Nammy]

What do you think was the best battle in WW2?

[USMC the Almighty]

I liked how the entire Operation Overlord (Normandy) was carried out, but there's really so many great ones. Market Garden, Hill 500, Midway, El Alamein, Britain, Kursk, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Stalingrad, Crete, Battle of 100 Regiments....

[vyo476]

Stalingrad, no doubt. If you've never seen Enemy at the Gates go rent a copy and watch it.

[USMC the Almighty]

Stalingrad, no doubt. If you've never seen Enemy at the Gates go rent a copy and watch it.

Yeah, for some reason, I don't really think of Stalingrad as one battle.

[vyo476]

Yeah, for some reason, I don't really think of Stalingrad as one battle.

I can see why. The only reason I do is because it'd be too confusing to think of it as several. Not nearly as confusing as the cluster**** that was WWI, but still...confusing.

[ArmChair General]

The key military struggle of the war was on the plains of Russia, and Hitler lost because he was too much of a snobby hick idiot to look for allies. If he'd courted the Belorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, the peasant landholders forced onto kolkhozes and all the other anti-Commie groups in Eastern Europe he'd have won hands down. And if Stalin had been one smidgen LESS evil, he'd have lost anyway. Stalin won because his soldiers were way more afraid of the NKVD than the Nazis. If a Russian soldier was captured, he was considered a traitor. If he retreated, the commissars were waiting to shoot him. If he *****ed, he'd have his fingernails removed and end up begging to be shot.

The fact is, there are NO Military Lessons to Be Learned from WW II. This is my real pet peeve about WW II, because frankly I care way more about bad military history than all that moral bla-bla. Every military lesson people WANT to take away from WW II is wrong, and the one they COULD learn is the one they don't want to learn.

Here's the real lesson of the war: military superiority in the narrow sense isn't nearly as important as economic strength and propaganda working in tandem.

The real legacy of this ****ty war was a Soviet world, where the way to win is to mix propaganda about love and peace for grabbing US tax dollars with a new kind of violence, a mean cowardly kind that happened in Moscow basement interrogation cells, with 70-year sentences to Office World as the alternative for us lucky Americans.

Everything they told you is wrong. Everything you believe is wrong, and worse than that, it's dull, too. At least the fascists tried to make it interesting for us non-execs, non-surfers, non-golfers. They were brutal scum, sure...but I have to ask, "compared to who...YOU as-sholes?"

[Justinian]

Oh come on. The best battle in WW2 is without a doubt the Battle of Kirsk. The showdown of the colossal titans of Germany and Russia on who would without hindsight rule Europe. It was the largest tank battle in history if not the largest military gound battle in history itself.

[Abraxis Axis]

perhaps you all dont know the lurid details of what happened in the Ardeness and in and around Bastonge in places like st Vith

the Battle of the Bulge was the Most decisive Victory of the war had the germans Broke through everything would have been far far different

the sheer overwhelming power of the German Blitzkrieg combined with the fire power SHOULD have handed the Germans a decisive Victory

But american Ingenuity Courage and determination stood the test as the outnumbered allies held theyre positions and held the line some of the bloodiest of fighting occourred in the Ardeness

as allied came up against one of the germans most ruthless units the Sixth SS Panzer Army commanded by a very ruhless heartless man who was feared and well known for the horrible things he had done Oberstgruppenführer Josef Dietrich -

operation Market Garden mentioned earlier while was a spectacular PLAN Failed Miserably....a movie a Bridge too Far is about Operation Market Garden.....Operation Market Garden was well known but it was a FAILURE as the objectives of the operation were never achieved

My Grandfather from my Grandmas first husband was in the Army Air Corps and was Shot Down over the netherlands During Market garden he was killed i have been to all of the objectives and battle grounds of this operation as well as to my first Grandpas Grave


My Grandmother re-married my second grandfather was in the 82nd airborne division, and was at the battle of the Bulge as well as Market garden he was in a Glider squadron that landed for market garden

I have personally travvelled all over Europe and england to most of the Historical battlefields prisoner camps etc...

Battle of the Bulge was by far the Greatest battle of ww2
in the euoropean theatre of combat

[Rokerijdude11]

Funny how you all seem to have completly forgotten the Pacific Theatre of Operations.......where the first really Decisive battle of the war looms large the battle for midway..
probably one of the largest single victories for the Allies in ww2


as well you have the battles at Iwo jima, and the largest amphibious attack of the war at Okinawa japan.and the we have the battle of the tin cans......against the entire Might of the Japanese fleet....who at the time rivaled the US with her majestic oceanic warships

why you all seem smitten with lowly battle of stalingrad i will never know...some of the Greatest battles were fought in the pacific ....with the battle of Midway being the premiere battle closely followed by okinawa and the battle for the phillipines in which "Tin Can" us ships defeatead the superior forces of Japans Fleet in close quarter Naval warfare...

much like the defeat of the germans at the bulge...interestingly I myself have been all over the pacific Midway, Truk, Iwo Jima, Guam, Rota, Tinian, saipan, the marshall islands, the Cook Islands,Guadalacanal, corregidor,
just a few years before i was stationed in Guam ...........
Shoichi Yokoi came out of the Jungles of Guam where he had been hiding for 28 years!!!there are still tunnels and command bunkers all through the islands exploring them is quite a thrill

[Rokerijdude11]

whats up with this little to no participation? why is that? ww2? pretty important history id say

[Bunz]

Call me biased, but the Aleutian campaign is a largely forgotten series of battles in the Aleutian Islands of Alaskans where the Japanese for a time occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska the only enemy held territory on North America. There is a very good book called the Thousand Mile War which details this campaign. The elements and hardship endured by the soldiers was extraordinary.

[vyo476]

Call me biased, but the Aleutian campaign is a largely forgotten series of battles in the Aleutian Islands of Alaskans where the Japanese for a time occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska the only enemy held territory on North America. There is a very good book called the Thousand Mile War which details this campaign. The elements and hardship endured by the soldiers was extraordinary.

I've never heard of this before but it sounds fascinating. I'll have to go look it up; I love reading about all the little things that don't make into the mainstream history books.

[Beetle Bailey]

I've never heard of this before but it sounds fascinating. I'll have to go look it up; I love reading about all the little things that don't make into the mainstream history books.

The Aleutian campaign is mainstream history. Anyone who says they don't know about it hasn't really read much. It is anything but an obscure reference.

[vyo476]

The Aleutian campaign is mainstream history. Anyone who says they don't know about it hasn't really read much. It is anything but an obscure reference.

I'm sorry. Is it very hard for you to get your voice to carry down off that pedestal you're on?

Anyway, I've done a little reading on it and no, it is not "mainstream," in the sense that it gets left off of historical accounts of WWII quite often. From Wikipedia:

The battle, overshadowed by the simultaneous Battle of Guadalcanal, is known as the "Forgotten Battle." It is described in mainstream histories as a diversionary attack during the Battle of Midway and was in fact launched simultaneously under the same overall commander, Isoroku Yamamoto. Historians Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully made strong arguments in their 2005 book, Shattered Sword, against the theory that Operation AL was merely a diversion.

[Beetle Bailey]

I'm sorry. Is it very hard for you to get your voice to carry down off that pedestal you're on?

Anyway, I've done a little reading on it and no, it is not "mainstream," in the sense that it gets left off of historical accounts of WWII quite often. From Wikipedia:

You use Wikipedia? No wonder. That doesn't really count as reading. Try some books. Try an actual encyclopedia. Any common, generic history about WWII will tell you everything you need to know about the Aleutian Campaign.

[Bunz]

Beetle, ease up buddy, plenty of people dont know about it. I know of WWII vets who didnt know much about it. It is often spoken about as being the forgotten campaign.
VYO, the best book I have read concerning the Aleutians like I said earlier is called "The Thousand Mile War"
In my town in western Alaska a few hundred miled from the main action, one can still find rusted out shore batteries that were used as further defense up the coast. They were never fired in anger.

[Beetle Bailey]

Beetle, ease up buddy, plenty of people dont know about it. I know of WWII vets who didnt know much about it. It is often spoken about as being the forgotten campaign.
VYO, the best book I have read concerning the Aleutians like I said earlier is called "The Thousand Mile War"
In my town in western Alaska a few hundred miled from the main action, one can still find rusted out shore batteries that were used as further defense up the coast. They were never fired in anger.

The difference is that this guy prides himself on his knowlege of history and war. And he keeps reminding us of that. The problem is, he doesn't really seem to know much. I despise phoney intellectuals.

[Beetle Bailey]

The difference is that this guy prides himself on his knowlege of history and war. And he keeps reminding us of that. The problem is, he doesn't really seem to know much. I despise phoney intellectuals.
I refer to VYO. Just wanted to make that apparent.

[vyo476]

The difference is that this guy prides himself on his knowlege of history and war. And he keeps reminding us of that. The problem is, he doesn't really seem to know much. I despise phoney intellectuals.

Wow. I am sorry if I came across as pompous or if you thought I was flaunting my knowledge of history. I do enjoy reading about history and I know a few things about it; what I wrote in this thread was, at the least, an acknowledgment of something I don't know about. No one knows everything and we learn more by, amongst other things, learning from others. I was stating a desire to learn more about something I didn't know about...and you attacked me.

Once again, I apologize if I offended you.

[Abraxis Axis]

Call me biased, but the Aleutian campaign is a largely forgotten series of battles in the Aleutian Islands of Alaskans where the Japanese for a time occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska the only enemy held territory on North America. There is a very good book called the Thousand Mile War which details this campaign. The elements and hardship endured by the soldiers was extraordinary.

well ill give you this its one of the most Obscure battles of WW2 .......May i ask why you believe it is one of the Best battles of war? How in your opinion does it make the rate so to speak?
I am just curious of your view

[Bunz]

Abraxis, sure no problem, for a few reasons, and maybe best battle isnt quite fair, but my favorite, for several reasons. Firstly, the Aleutians were the only North American enemy held territory and it involved kicking the Japanese out. So as an American I found that to be a good thing. But several things happened during that battle, for instance the US was able to aquire a nearly intact Zero that crashed in some tundra and it was then studied for weaknesses. Also the hardships endured by the all parties involved were pretty extraordinary. Local Aleuts, the natives of the island areas were evacuated to southeast Alaska in what turned out to be a tragic turn of events similar to the treatment in Japanese internment camps. Though one could argue they were better off in the relative safety of southeast Alaska rather than facing a Japanese invasion, but regardless the conditions of thier internment were tragic. But also the circumstances of the distances involved, the reliance on aircraft, and it being basically in my backyard with people I know involved makes it my favorite. I would encourage anyone to read about the Alaska territorial guard, fasinating bunch they were, not many left alive now.

[Abraxis Axis]

cool. i will defenitly do some more reading. i do remember that the japanese did have men in alaska, but didnt really know the details.unfortunatly it isnt one of the more written about battles? thanks for the information .

[Beetle Bailey]

Wow. I am sorry if I came across as pompous or if you thought I was flaunting my knowledge of history. I do enjoy reading about history and I know a few things about it; what I wrote in this thread was, at the least, an acknowledgment of something I don't know about. No one knows everything and we learn more by, amongst other things, learning from others. I was stating a desire to learn more about something I didn't know about...and you attacked me.

Once again, I apologize if I offended you.

No need to apoligize. I probably shouldn't be so hard on you. And I shouldn't allow the debate on one thread to spill over on to another. Just because you feel free to challenge me on other threads doesn't give me the right to target you. However, if you want to talk history with me, be ready. The history of western civilization is sort of like a hobby with me. War is always the most prominent feature in anyone's history. I usually don't read most of the pop culture, revisionist historian distillations of other people's writing's. For people like you that have a real interest in history I think you should start with the classics. Read the stuff that modern authors refer to. Read the translations of Caesar, Xenophon, Livy, Tacitus, Suetonius, Clausewitz, and others. You will be firmly based and well enough versed to hold discourse with almost anyone about western history.

[vyo476]

No need to apoligize. I probably shouldn't be so hard on you. And I shouldn't allow the debate on one thread to spill over on to another. Just because you feel free to challenge me on other threads doesn't give me the right to target you. However, if you want to talk history with me, be ready. The history of western civilization is sort of like a hobby with me. War is always the most prominent feature in anyone's history. I usually don't read most of the pop culture, revisionist historian distillations of other people's writing's. For people like you that have a real interest in history I think you should start with the classics. Read the stuff that modern authors refer to. Read the translations of Caesar, Xenophon, Livy, Tacitus, Suetonius, Clausewitz, and others. You will be firmly based and well enough versed to hold discourse with almost anyone about western history.

I have a course coming up in college (either this fall or next spring) in early Western history. Of course it's just a survey class, but our school's history teacher (there's only one - the downside of art school) likes to drop hints about which texts he prefers. That should help fill in the gaps that I have on early western civs - and there are a lot of gaps.

I too am an amateur historian. I considered studying it in college (and in fact would have if I'd wound up at a different school) but decided on creative writing instead. I'm still very actively interested in history and I love to read everything I can get my hands on (within reason - two jobs and a disabled mother make my life busy).

As for revisionism...I'm not a fan of revisionist history. I like to read alternate history. The only real difference is that alternate history presents hypothetical situations as hypothetical situations, whereas revisionists tend to present hypothetical situations as "the truth." I've always been fascinated with hypotheticals...but not so much on an intellectual level as on an entertainment level. Exploring how things may have happened, according to people with more degrees than I have fingers, can be quite as exciting (or disturbing) as a good science fiction or fantasy book. While I do think that there can be some intellectual value to alternate history (ironically Orwell's 1984 and Clancy's Red Storm Rising are both considered quasi-alternate history today) I wouldn't put too much faith in the various scenarios as "what would have happened." They always are "what might have happened." Another small but important difference.

I am ready to discuss history with you. I'm sure there's a lot I can learn from you. There'll probably be friction too, but this a debate forum, after all.

I'm rather fond of Winston Churchill and I thought I'd throw a little something he said once at the end here: "Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught."

[Rick]

What exactly is meant by "best"?

[ChairmanMeow]

It’s kind of terrible that we can call battles “best” but I would have to say The Battle of Normandy!