Newt Gingrich implies Spanish is "the language of living in a ghetto" [Archive] - House of Politics

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Koios

03-31-2007, 02:34 PM

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich equated bilingual education Saturday with "the language of living in a ghetto" and mocked requirements that ballots be printed in multiple languages.

"The government should quit mandating that various documents be printed in any one of 700 languages depending on who randomly shows up" to vote, said Gingrich, who is considering seeking the Republican presidential nomination in 2008. He made the comments in a speech to the National Federation of Republican Women.

I think this was quite a bold statement to make. Maybe he is assuming many of those who need documents in other languages will not be that significant in terms of the election. However, I don't see how this will benefit him as much as it could end up hurting him. In my opinion Americans are behind in terms of embracing other languages. I understand his concern is that English is not being spoken widely enough but if anything we should be trying to introduce new bilingual programs, not destroy them.

Read more here (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/31/gingrich.bilingual.ap/index.html).

USMC the Almighty

03-31-2007, 03:26 PM

I understand his concern is that English is not being spoken widely enough but if anything we should be trying to introduce new bilingual programs, not destroy them.

I disagree completely.

It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. One scholar, Seymour Martin Lipset put it this way:

"The histories of bilingual and bicultural socierties that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy: Canada, Belgium, Malayisa, Lebanon -- all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with its basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Maintaing your culture is fine -- but America is a melting pot where you are supposed to assimilate into the American way of life and salute the American flag, that's what made this country so great.

Immigrants are a blessing, but only when they are willing to integrate.

Lilly Marlene

03-31-2007, 04:14 PM

It's true. We want a nation here, not a boarding house where people can hang while they earn money to send back home.

My question to you Koios is ...why just Spanish
(because that's the only language that demands to be accommodated, at least to my knowledge) ?

How come Germans, Italians, Vietnamese, Russians and everyone else who immigrates here does not have all the documents translated for them ? Why do their children have to go into public schools and learn English instead of slowing up everything for everyone else ?

If we are going to do it for one group, it is unfair not to do it for everybody.

The irony in all this is that Newt is a total open borders enabler who promotes this slave labor for the supply side.

USMC the Almighty

03-31-2007, 04:27 PM

I agree 100% with USMC on this one.

My question to you Koios is ...why just Spanish
(because that's the only language that demands to be accommodated, at least to my knowledge) ?

How come Germans, Italians, Vietnamese, Russians and everyone else who immigrates here does not have all the documents translated for them ? Why do their children have to go into public schools and learn English instead of slowing up everything for everyone else ?

If you are going to do it for one group, it is unfair not to do it for everybody.

You're exaclty right. The only people who we make excuses for are the Spanish.

The irony in all this is that Newt is a total open borders enabler who actively promotes this slave labor for the supply side.

What are you talking about? He had this to say in an article last year:

"First, we must deal with the immediate. Open borders are a grave national-security threat. Why have a multibillion-dollar ballistic-missile-defense system when a terrorist can rent a truck and drive a weapon of mass destruction across the border? Gaining control of our borders is therefore an immediate and pressing national-security requirement. The secondary effect is that it would dramatically stem the flow of illegal immigration, illegal drugs, and the human trafficking of slaves (mostly female and mostly for sexual exploitation)."

"...we cannot continue to allow a wide-open illegal employment system. The current flood of illegal migration if left unchecked for a period of decades will decisively undermine the economy in both economic and legal terms."

"No one believes the border is anywhere close to being controlled. Few have confidence that the government will ever seriously do something about it. In the same regard, the idea that the federal government could actually run an effective identification program for worker visas is not credible either which is why every audience applauds when I suggest outsourcing it to Visa, MasterCard, or American Express."

He reiterates later in the same article: "First, control the borders with decisive legislation aggressively implemented with tight deadlines."

And again: "Accordingly, the Congress should pass a border-control bill immediately. There is no reason the Congress cannot immediately pass such a bill, and then concentrate on additional immigration reform measures later. The Congress should immediately act on this one aspect of immigration reform around which there is widespread agreement. America needs real border control immediately."

Read his article here: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/gingrich200604261230.asp

Hardly a "total open borders enabler".

Lilly Marlene

03-31-2007, 04:31 PM

:eek:

If I'm mistaken I will have to eat my words, but I'm sure I had read something to the contrary !

Maybe actions as contrasted with words ?
I'm not sure ...
Let me try and find out where I got that, and get back to you on this.

USMC the Almighty

03-31-2007, 04:34 PM

Lilly Marlene

03-31-2007, 04:55 PM

USMC the Almighty

03-31-2007, 05:02 PM

Well hopefully it will be me offering to forgive you !

I am posting one reliable source ...it is not one of those that I had seen before however so I'll still try to find the others real late tonight.

http://profiles.numbersusa.com/improfile.php3?DistSend=GA&VIPID=217

Have a great evening,
Lilly

Oh no no no. These votes took place in 1990, 1996, and 1998. Now the immigration issue wasn't as hot back then, but I'm not going to make excuses for his votes ten years ago. Since then, he's clearly reformed his position. That article that I posted was written by him.

He may have been wrong back then, but he's got it right this time around.

Koios

03-31-2007, 06:00 PM

You're exaclty right. The only people who we make excuses for are the Spanish.

Actually, that is not true. If you look deep in your history books you will find that we did in fact provide translations for most of those groups Lilly mentioned particularly the Italians and Germans. The difference is that there are not as many immigrants coming from those places anymore.

Just recently I saw some "I voted" pins that had a Chinese translation right bellow the English transcription. Of course you will primarily see translations for Spanish but it still shows how if there is a large community that doesn't fully comprehend the language we will compromise, it is not just done for Spanish.

Also if you read the actual news article you will realize that the main point here is how blatantly ignorant Gingrich's statement appears. A representative of the Hispanic Education Coalition pointed out that people do want to integrate and learn English more than anything because they know this is required in order to truly succeed and accomplish the American dream.

"...We should replace bilingual education with immersion in English so people learn the common language of the country and they learn the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto"

No matter how you spin this, I think it could really hurt him--it was unwise of him to phrase it like he did. His point would have been much more valuable and respectable if he resorted to better use of the language he boasts about. He would have been better off implementing diplomacy and using the "language of a ghetto" over using the "language of prosperity" in such a disrespectful manner.

USMC the Almighty

03-31-2007, 06:27 PM

Lily, that's how he is. He's not PC, he doesn't hide his feelings, he's forthright, and you always know where he's coming from. That's who he is.

And I happen to agree with him.

I don't deny that it will hurt him -- it may, but truth be told, the Hispanic Education Coalition does not form the bulk of his voter base.

Tell me then, if I want to blame someone or some faction of people for pushing bilingual education, who should I blame?

Friendindeed

03-31-2007, 07:13 PM

Actually, that is not true. If you look deep in your history books you will find that we did in fact provide translations for most of those groups Lilly mentioned particularly the Italians and Germans. The difference is that there are not as many immigrants coming from those places anymore.

I would have to ask which history books you are looking in and whether you are talking about public schools vs. private schools because that would be teh issue.
I was around when the Vietnamese came in great numbers and there was no bilingual ed for them.

Just recently I saw some "I voted" pins that had a Chinese translation right bellow the English transcription. Of course you will primarily see translations for Spanish but it still shows how if there is a large community that doesn't fully comprehend the language we will compromise, it is not just done for Spanish.

How does it show that, unless you are saying it proves the ballots were translated into Chinese.

No matter how you spin this, I think it could really hurt him--it was unwise of him to phrase it like he did.

I don't know how much it will hurt him because the majority of Repubs feel that way even the ones who support Bush's other policies.

Koios

04-01-2007, 12:02 AM

Tell me then, if I want to blame someone or some faction of people for pushing bilingual education, who should I blame?

Blame? I don’t think it’s really about “blame”. If anything I think that our current educational system is at fault because it does not come close to being equal—the disparities are just astonishing to say the least. The truth of the matter is that public education is not up to par particularly in the “ghettos” where Spanish would be spoken. Hence it becomes harder to learn anything without the proper education, let alone all the other problems that come along with living in such an environment.

I would have to ask which history books you are looking in and whether you are talking about public schools vs. private schools because that would be teh issue.
I was around when the Vietnamese came in great numbers and there was no bilingual ed for them.

What I meant was that if you look past the basic education provided by your high school you will find that you are mistaken (I'm not sure, perhaps they do teach you this in some good high school history classes). Well, seeing as to how you seem to be skeptical, you only have to look as far as Wikipedia to see it is true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_in_the_United_States

Before World War I, more than 6% of American schoolchildren received their primary education only in German…

An urban legend, sometimes called the Mühlenberg legend after Frederick Muhlenberg, states that English only narrowly defeated German as the U.S. official language. In reality, the proposal being referenced was only to have government documents translated into German as a secondary language. T

I am saying it will hurt him only because it shows a bad side to him—I do not think it is just about being politically correct but more about being articulate and informed—he forgets that Spanish (and many other languages) are spoken quite widely outside of the “ghetto”.

I know he is not perfect, and nor is anyone else. I’m just pointing out it was perhaps not the wisest move to make.

Lilly Marlene

04-01-2007, 12:27 AM

That is interesting, Koios.

Is there any other source for that apart from the one statement in the Wiki entry ?

The reason I ask is not to dismiss Wiki as untrustworthy, even though many people do. It's because the Wiki entry was brief and didn't mention whether it was the public school or not.
And Friendindeed's point is well taken when he wrote that that would be the issue here.

Also the article dealt only with German; people have come here from Italy, Japan, China, Russia, the Netherlands, Poland, Viet Nam ...all kinds of places.
Public elementary schools have not provided bilingual programs for them.

Lilly Marlene

04-01-2007, 12:37 AM

Lily, that's how he is. He's not PC, he doesn't hide his feelings, he's forthright, and you always know where he's coming from. That's who he is.

I appreciate those qualities.

And I must acknowledge now that I was behind the times on Newt: he HAS seemed to alter his thinking with regard to the illegal immigration issue.

I read your NRO article and some other of his more recent ideas.

I don't deny that it will hurt him -- it may, but truth be told, the Hispanic Education Coalition does not form the bulk of his voter base.
Tell me then, if I want to blame someone or some faction of people for pushing bilingual education, who should I blame?

That last section seems to be addressing Koios' comments.
I'll tell you something though.
At a parent teacher meeting at my younger son's school, there was a man and woman from Mexico attending. They had no children in school there, yet they showed up outfitted with placards expressing their demands ...and they got up to make speeches during the meeting.

What was their complaint ?

They were dissatisfied with the type of Spanish utilized in the bilingual program for the children from Mexico. They said it was European Spanish and apparently the idea was that the children had problems understanding idiomatic phrases peculiar to textbook European Spanish.
They demanded that the school district "should recruit Mexican teachers".

Do you believe that that ?
Why should my children have teachers from a place where they are less stringently qualified, just to suit the fancy of these people ? For the love of heaven, they are already getting bilingual ed which no other immigrant group gets.

It's the old "give an inch and they take a mile" story.
I posted this on another discussion board and a couple of other people had been confronted by these protesters at parent teacher meetings also.

Koios

04-01-2007, 03:04 AM

I'm sorry but I read up about the government documents translations a while ago and I can't remember the source (it was in an actual book though). Either way, I think Wikipedia proves my point: government documents were indeed translated because Germans made up such a large portion of the population.

The main point here is that the USA currently holds a large Hispanic population:

The current U.S. population is 72 percent non-Hispanic white; 12 percent African-American; 11 percent Hispanic; and five percent Asian and other.

Since 1980, the number of Hispanics in the U.S. has grown five times faster than the rest of the population, making the United States the third largest Spanish-speaking country in the world.

At 33.1 million in 1999, African-Americans remained the largest single minority group nationally, yet between 2005 and 2015, Hispanics are expected to pass African-Americans as the country’s largest minority group.

(Link to source (http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/uspopperspec/uspopperspec.html)).

That last section seems to be addressing Koios' comments.
I'll tell you something though.
At a parent teacher meeting at my younger son's school, there was a man and woman from Mexico attending. They had no children in school there, yet they showed up outfitted with placards expressing their demands ...and they got up to make speeches during the meeting.

What was their complaint ?

They were dissatisfied with the type of Spanish utilized in the bilingual program for the children from Mexico. They said it was European Spanish and apparently the idea was that the children had problems understanding idiomatic phrases peculiar to textbook European Spanish.
They demanded that the school district "should recruit Mexican teachers".

Do you believe that that ?
Why should my children have teachers from a place where they are less stringently qualified, just to suit the fancy of these people ? For the love of heaven, they are already getting bilingual ed which no other immigrant group gets.

It's the old "give an inch and they take a mile" story.
I posted this on another discussion board and a couple of other people had been confronted by these protesters at parent teacher meetings also.

Like I pointed out before, Hispanics already make up a large portion of the population and they speak a common language (as opposed to migrants from other areas i.e. Asia). Hence, they have the power to demand more things because they will soon become the largest minority group.

Here is another way to look at the example you provided. Let’s say all of a sudden your children were being taught in “British English” instead of “American English”—I would think that you too would demand change.

USMC the Almighty

04-01-2007, 05:20 AM

Here is another way to look at the example you provided. Let’s say all of a sudden your children were being taught in “British English” instead of “American English”—I would think that you too would demand change.

Absolutely not. I would tell my children to learn and adapt.

Lilly Marlene

04-01-2007, 01:03 PM

Koios, British English is certainly intelligible to American children ...it is merely a matter of vernacular.
Similarly,
I had a couple of teachers straight from Ireland when I was little and had no trouble understanding them even through the thick brogue.

I'm sorry but I read up about the government documents translations a while ago and I can't remember the source (it was in an actual book though). Either way, I think Wikipedia proves my point: government documents were indeed translated because Germans made up such a large portion of the population.

I don't mean to be unduly argumentative here, but the sentence in Wiki would prove your point only if it mentioned government documents and if it mentioned that the schools at issue were public schools.

Another thing to keep in mind is something I was trying to hint at - as politely as possible - last night: that Wikipedia really is a questionable source of information ...in fact at my kids' school it is not even considered admissible as substantiating anything.
The reason for that is that Wiki entries can be written by literally anyone.

Thus, the best use of Wiki is to get keywords related to the topic and then look elsewhere.

If it is the case that government documents were translated into German - as an official policy vs. just a favor in some localities - then there should be a record of this on the Internet in places other than Wiki.

Even if you should find such a record, you are talking about nearly 100 years ago and only one language (not most of those groups Lilly mentioned as you wrote previously).

The main point here is that the USA currently holds a large Hispanic population:

(Link to source (http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/uspopperspec/uspopperspec.html)).

I do not consider that a grounds even for bilingual ed. Please read the goals and designs of La Voz de Aztlan and you will understand my point of view better.

Additionally, how long before the THIRD most spoken language would demand such accommodation also ?

Like I pointed out before, Hispanics already make up a large portion of the population and they speak a common language (as opposed to migrants from other areas i.e. Asia). Hence, they have the power to demand more things because they will soon become the largest minority group.

They do not have any power to demand these things except what is wrong-headedly given to them, especially in view of the fact that so many of them are here illegally.

Koios

04-01-2007, 02:37 PM

Well, while I understand quite well how Wikipedia operates (I used to help monitor it and frequented its largest IRC channel) I will remind you that I stated I could not remember the source of my claim... so I will have to drop that argument and just provide this last quote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some states mandated English as the exclusive language of instruction in the public schools, while Pennsylvania and Ohio in 1839 were first in allowing German as an official alternative, even requiring it on parental demand. Some public and many private parochial schools taught exclusively in German throughout many decades, mostly in rural areas.

(Source: Conflict in the Classroom: Anti-Germanism in Minnesota Schools, 1917-19," Minnesota History, 47 (Spring, 1981), 170-183.)

Here: http://dc.gov/translations.asp?portal_link=fc&page=http://dc.gov/translations.asp this government website attempts to "translate" into many of the popular languages but they only use automated translation software—even for Spanish. The acknowledgement for these other citizens is there—the government is just not making a big enough effort. It is my personal opinion that government documents should be translated into other languages since English is not even the official language of this nation.

Other than this, I cannot prove to you my point at this moment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carrying on:

It saddens me that you appear to despise “illegal” immigrants and the few benefits they have but I am sorry to say that they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

May I remind you that Mexico used to look like this not more than a century ago?

http://photos21.flickr.com/33025213_b40f249503_m.jpg

Hence the popular proverb: “we didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us”.

Here is my view:

Americans in general tend to think they deserve so much. In my view, I do not feel that I deserve anything, I was just lucky to have been born in this country—nothing more, nothing less. If I had been born under quite degrading circumstances I too would be trying to do my best to improve the life of my family—even if it meant violating some laws, especially those I view as artificial and unfair—inhuman to say the least. If Mexico had been victorious then history would be different and perhaps many Mexicans would resent Americans trying to cross over into Mexico to achieve a better way of life. This is probably true but it still does not make it right. Really stop and think about what a country ultimately is, and then go back and think about what it means to be “American” or “Mexican” or “illegal”. Can humans be “illegal”? If so, why?

Here is the best recommendation I can make if you truly wish to understand my view. Get to know some of the people you judge here on this forum without fully understanding. Volunteer, talk to them, anything—learn about them from them not from some secondhand source. As much as you may reference or research/study from your computer/books, I do not think you can fully understand the issue at hand by only doing this. I only make this recommendation because I think it is more feasible than people take out to be and probably much more effective.

Please don’t take this as an offense—it is only a recommendation that I truly believe will help you understand a different point of view… but perhaps I’m just too optimistic. I understand this is one of the most outrageous things you will ever read in a forum but I am all about going beyond the standard. Remember that I too am open for criticism and if you think you could make a recommendation to help me understand or improve in anyway, please don't hesitate to let me know.

(We should probably start a new thread on this subject… since it is getting a bit off topic and I could elaborate more on why I have made such a "crazy" recommendation)

Lilly Marlene

04-01-2007, 03:06 PM

(Source: Conflict in the Classroom: Anti-Germanism in Minnesota Schools, 1917-19," Minnesota History, 47 (Spring, 1981), 170-183.)

That one was better because it did say "public schools" which was chiefly the point you were hoping to make.
However,
it dealt only with German whereas your claim was about "most of the groups" I had mentioned.
And also,
the date is nearly 200 years ago.

Here: http://dc.gov/translations.asp?portal_link=fc&page=http://dc.gov/translations.asp this government website attempts to "translate" into many of the popular languages but they only use automated translation software—even for Spanish. The acknowledgement for these other citizens is there—the government is just not making a big enough effort. It is my personal opinion that government documents should be translated into other languages since English is not even the official language of this nation.

This is precisely the reason English probably SHOULD be the official language, because otherwise it would be only fair to translate everything into every other language if we are doing it for Spanish.
You have not replied to my point about how those who speak the third most spoken language could easily begin to demand the same service of having everything translated.

It saddens me that you appear to despise “illegal” immigrants and the few benefits they have but I am sorry to say that they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm afraid that claim is absurd my friend. It is an attempt used routinely to slur my position as personal rancor when it is clearly not.

There is no indication in my posts or in my personal life that I "despise illegal immigrants". What I am doing is arguing against granting amnesty citizenship to them.

And most illegal immigrants will almost certainly return to their native countries after employment and welfare is no longer available here so it is unnecessarily defeatist to throw up our hands and say they are not going anywhere.

May I remind you that Mexico used to look like this not more than a century ago?

http://photos21.flickr.com/33025213_b40f249503_m.jpg

Incorrect. The alterations preceded the US Civil War.

Hence the popular proverb: “we didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us”.

Yes, that is very popular but mostly with La Raza or La Voz de Aztlan.

Here is my view:

Americans in general tend to think they deserve so much. In my view, I do not feel that I deserve anything, I was just lucky to have been born in this country—nothing more, nothing less. If I had been born under quite degrading circumstances I too would be trying to do my best to improve the life of my family—even if it meant violating some laws, especially those I view as artificial and unfair—inhuman to say the least.

That is certainly supposed to be the only acceptable attitude. I wonder if you're aware of what voluminous resources have been summoned to foster that attitude, and who it really is who benefits from it.

Let me ask you this:

Are you aware that Mexico stringently enforces its own immigration codes ?
According to your criterion, that must mean they are acting in an unfair and inhuman way.

If Mexico had been victorious then history would be different and perhaps many Mexicans would resent Americans trying to cross over into Mexico to achieve a better way of life.

It wasn't victorious though - and not only did the US win the war but the US also paid Mexico $15 MILLION dollars for the territory.

This is probably true but it still does not make it right. Really stop and think about what a country ultimately is, and then go back and think about what it means to be “American” or “Mexican” or “illegal”. Can humans be “illegal”? If so, why?

I believe very strongly in nations, for reasons I can go into at length later.
Human beings can be illegally in a country drawing wages, and that is all anyone here has ever said.

Here is the best recommendation I can make if you truly wish to understand my view. Get to know some of the people you judge here on this forum without fully understanding. Volunteer, talk to them, anything—learn about them from them not from some secondhand source. As much as you may reference or research/study from your computer/books, I do not think you can fully understand the issue at hand by only doing this. I only make this recommendation because I think it is more feasible than people take out to be and probably much more effective.

Are you aware that I am Catholic ?
And that I live in the border state of New Mexico ?
I see, talk to, or interact with illegal immigrants nearly every day of my life.

For further illumination, I recommend that you begin to explore how so many Latino US citizens feel about this issue, and I will get you a website that will help with that.

Please don’t take this as an offense—it is only a recommendation that I truly believe will help you understand a different point of view… but perhaps I’m just too optimistic. I understand this is one of the most outrageous things you will ever read in a forum but I am all about going beyond the standard.

(We should probably start a new thread on this subject… since it is getting a bit off topic and I could elaborate more on why I have made such a "crazy" recommendation)

There is nothing crazy or offensive about your recommendation.

Illegal immigrants are all around me. I bear no malice toward them personally; in fact, I would be doing the same thing they are if I were in their position - and their country was stupid enough to let me.

I'll come back with that website for you later.

[Edited on Monday; see my note to you in a separate post which I will now write at the end of this thread].

The_Giver

04-01-2007, 03:16 PM

Koios,

I beg you to understand that you are probably fighting a loosing battle. Just think about how long it took for African Americans to gain recognition, and still to this day racism is at large. That right there is America for you. I may agree with most of what you have explained but you must understand it is difficult for people to change and see beyond what they have known since they were kids.

Eternal

04-01-2007, 03:30 PM

that's why I always say "america is great, but not that great". it is over hyped at most. it is my belief taht we really screw up the world more than we help it.

USMC the Almighty

04-01-2007, 03:41 PM

May I remind you that Mexico used to look like this not more than a century ago?

http://photos21.flickr.com/33025213_b40f249503_m.jpg

Hence the popular proverb: “we didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us”.

First of all -- your dates are wrong. The Texas Revolution took place in 1835 and the Mexican War lasted from 1846-1848. By 1890, according to Frederick Jackson Turner's "Frontier Thesis" the safety valve of the American frontier had closed -- essentially, Americans had now settled every part of the country.

Secondly, you could apply this proverb continuously throughout American history. We didn't have any land west of Louisiana until Jefferson purchased it from the French in 1803. Does that mean that we should all speak "Native American" in those parts?

USMC the Almighty

04-01-2007, 03:44 PM

that's why I always say "america is great, but not that great". it is over hyped at most. it is my belief taht we really screw up the world more than we help it.

The U.S. gives more people an opportunity than any other country in the world. That's why this country has continuously had more immigrants coming here than citizens emigrating out (with one exception: Great Depression).

If this country is "not that great" than (a) why the hell are you here and (b) why the hell do all these immigrants risk their lives to sneak into it?

Friendindeed

04-01-2007, 04:02 PM

Koios,

I beg you to understand that you are probably fighting a loosing battle. Just think about how long it took for African Americans to gain recognition, and still to this day racism is at large. That right there is America for you. I may agree with most of what you have explained but you must understand it is difficult for people to change and see beyond what they have known since they were kids.

Sorry, there is no parallel there. African Americans have every right to be here, they did not sneak across the border or fail to honor their visa obligations.

In fact, African Americans are some of the people that are most against illegal immigration which you will find out if you research the subject.

It is not racism to be against illegal immigration, most of us would feel the same way if it were Australians or Dutch people doing it.

USMC the Almighty

04-01-2007, 04:06 PM

In fact, African Americans are some of the people that are most against illegal immigration which you will find out if you research the subject.

Very true. I read an interesting article about this a few weeks ago. I'll try to find it.

Friendindeed

04-01-2007, 04:11 PM

Koios, thanks but I've been out of high school for quite a few years now and in fact out of college too for that matter.

If you can't find any source on the internet for your statement then it is no doubt incorrect.

You told me that most of the groups Lily mentioned have had public school taught to them in their native languages.
There were five or six nationalities she mentioned there, but all you have shown is that in the early 1800s some places taught public school in German.

That does not support your claim.

Also, if you had some function at Wikipedia you should know why they are not considered a credible source. They invite anyone to write for them and the information is constantly being contested and corrected. Not to mention that the article did not support your statement anyway.

I am not surprised to see you write about despising illegal immigrants. That is always the resort that people take when they can't answer the arguments.

What do you not understand about the word ILLEGAL ? There are laws against illegal entry to every country and those who break them are here illegally.
What do you think would be a better plan than having immigration laws ?
Would you prefer that everyone can come here, whoever wants ?

Friendindeed

04-01-2007, 04:17 PM

Very true. I read an interesting article about this a few weeks ago. I'll try to find it.

One of the groups of African Americans that fight against illegal immigration is called the Crispus Atticus brigade or something like that.

And Lily apparently knows of a group of Latino US citizens who do the same thing so that shows that it is not a matter of "racism".

Koios

04-01-2007, 05:18 PM

I stand corrected, hehehe, that map is dated to be around 1800's and I was looking at the date but somehow I still managed to type "a century" instead of two centuries--which for some might be too old but considering "world history" I don't see it as that distant--maybe in relation to USA history it is. It was an honest but fatal mistake.

Friendindeed, just to let you know Wikipedia is considered to be as accurate as Britannica in terms of scientific matters, so please don't discredit it as just another source on the internet. True, it is not always reliable but it is pretty accurate overall.

Also, please excuse me if it seemed as though I implied you were still in high school (which looking back now, that's what it looks like), that was not my intention.

I already stated that my solution would be based on a simple economic principle-supply and demand--if you prevent businesses from employing the "illegals" then most will not come here. Again, this will not happen anytime soon (until we have some machines to replace them) because we need their labor to maintain our economy--it happens elsewhere in the world not just here.

Lilly, I am very aware that many problems prevail in Mexico itself and that many immigrants from bordering states struggle a great deal to get into Mexico, yet alone the USA. They often try to pass off as Mexicans and go through much hardship. I never said Mexico was not at fault—in fact just look at the Zapatista movement. I think the fact that there is so much wrong with Mexico itself strengthens my point.

15 Million? I have yet to meet someone who wasn't an American that honestly thinks that was a fair “trade” (even when adjusting the value of the currency).

One misc. point I would like to make is that I don't see a problem with providing translations for as many languages as we possibly can--besides I believe this will soon be a reality since AI technology will make this feasible quite soon.

I am looking forward to checking out that website you have mentioned Lilly.

Lilly Marlene

04-01-2007, 10:19 PM

Koios,
I beg you to understand that you are probably fighting a loosing battle. Just think about how long it took for African Americans to gain recognition, and still to this day racism is at large.

It is a losing battle but not for the reason you might think: the real reason is because there really is no persuasive argument IN FAVOR OF a policy which harms many US citizens, just to benefit

1. Global governance agendas;
2. Corporations and other business persons;
3. Citizens from other nations.

Yes, those are the three chief beneficiaries of illegal immigration.

The first two are the draw for President Bush and his kind.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/2soon2say/cid_003301c713bcbdc40cb043ed7a41har.jpg

If those first two stopped being a motivation, he would drop his amnesty crusade like a flaming potato.

But even if all these efforts were only for the sake of the illegal immigrants, it would be wrong because it harms Americans.
Just as parents must take care of their own children before the neighbor's, so must a nation take care of its own people before the people of a neighboring nation.

That right there is America for you. I may agree with most of what you have explained but you must understand it is difficult for people to change and see beyond what they have known since they were kids.

Please realize that you have misapprehended the position, if you think it is based on some sort of ethnic prejudice inculcated in childhood.

My own growing years would be instructive here:

Raised in southern California I attended a Catholic grade school ...at least half of the sixty children in my classroom each and every year were Mexican children.

We learned together, played together, belonged to the same church parish, had each other over to one another's houses ...I had no problem with them or vice versa and still don't, to this very day.

They were the children of people who had come to the US legally; illegal immigration was not much of a problem at all back then - it happened, but not on any sort of large scale.

Their having come to the US legally takes care of two issues which are quite important to me now:

1. It means that they were screened for infectious disease and violent criminal history - which illegal immigrants are NOT (with very distressing consequences which have become apparent in the past few years).

2. It means that their numbers were taken into account in a ballpark fashion by the designers of infrastructure (roads, water resources, schools, hospitals, prisons, and so forth).

I think you will find that my reasons are similar to those of most of the 85% of Americans who want the border effectively secured, and it has nothing to do with our childhoods or with ethnic prejudices.

It is insulting to compare black Americans and American Indians to the people who breech our borders.
Blacks and Indians have more than paid their dues; they are as much citizens as the Europeans who founded this nation.

Another group whose face is slapped every time an amnesty is granted ...is the huge group of Latino immigrants who have taken the trouble to come here in a legal way.
More on that later.

Lilly Marlene

04-01-2007, 10:30 PM

True, it [Wikipedia] is not always reliable but it is pretty accurate overall.

I have heard that too, Koios, what you said about some of the science entries in Wiki being comparable to Britannica.
Generally it is regarded as insufficient in debate as a conclusive way to substantiate a statement, though it is often used in a supplementary way.
That is not to discredit it; the problem is more or less the state of flux which characterizes it. I'm paraphrasing there what my teenaged son was told in school.

...If you prevent businesses from employing the "illegals" then most will not come here. Again, this will not happen anytime soon (until we have some machines to replace them) because we need their labor to maintain our economy--it happens elsewhere in the world not just here.

It is very rare that a person can work illegally in the socialist democracies of Europe; there is so much red tape in those countries (countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden, and the like).

And it is part of a disinformation campaign when we are told that our US economy depends on the labor of illegal immigrants.
True,
Their labor is very profitable for business owners and corporate entities.
But they are doing work which would be done gladly by US citizens if decent pay and benefits were offered ...

Last week I gave the example to saggyjones of the Swift plant in Colorado:
Raids were conducted there last December 12th. A great number of illegal immigrants were arrested who had used stolen IDs to get the work.
The very next day US citizens were queued out into the streets waiting to apply for those jobs, even with the miserable wage the plant was providing.

That was the case at the Smithfield plant in North Carolina also; the groups of US citizens who want these jobs are often black Americans, rural Americans, minimally-educated Americans, and so forth.
However,
the employers would rather hire illegal immigrants because they have no recourse to benefits in cases of injury, unsafe conditions, etc.

Lilly, I am very aware that many problems prevail in Mexico itself and that many immigrants from bordering states struggle a great deal to get into Mexico, yet alone the USA. They often try to pass off as Mexicans and go through much hardship. I never said Mexico was not at fault—in fact just look at the Zapatista movement. I think the fact that there is so much wrong with Mexico itself strengthens my point.

Here would be the way in which it doesn't:
The status quo is functioning as a safety valve for that corrupt situation in Mexico to which you just referred.
That's why the Mexican government provides actual safety kits and directions for their people to trespass across our borders -
they WANT to get rid of a whole lot of their poorer people !

Many wealthy persons live in Mexico but they don't wish to share with the poor. It's a very racist country: the lighter one's complexion, the more options one has. We see their television shows all the time in my border state ...tall, fair complected actors and actresses. Those are the monied classes in Mexico, and the short dark people are mere chattel to them. They encourage those poorer people to come to the US because then they'll send money home to Mexico to their families, and that money will circulate in the Mexican economy.

If the US were not providing that outlet, the people would be far more likely to rise up and have a revolution, much as we did here in the US over 200 years ago.

But if one has the choice to risk one's life in a revolution vs. leave the country and make better money, which will anyone choose ?

Incidentally, it is not the very poorest class which usually breeches the border. Those people do not have the money to make the trip or pay a coyote.
The class which usually comes here corresponds to our lower middle class (ironically enough since that is the class most harmed by their presence).
The people who come here from Mexico usually had a job in Mexico ...but the lure was irresistible to make $5 instead of 50 cents an hour.
It wouldn't have been such an issue except for NAFTA by the way.

15 Million? I have yet to meet someone who wasn't an American that honestly thinks that was a fair “trade” (even when adjusting the value of the currency).

It wasn't a trade.
We won the war with them and THEN still paid them that. Plus we paid them additional millions for the Gadsden Purchase which comprises an area of Arizona.

Koios,

1. How many countries have won land in a war and then still paid the other country for it ?

2. What do you think today's equivalent is of $15 Million dollars back in the early 1800s ?
In spite of what any non-US citizen might or might not say ... it is enormous.

The fact must be accepted that people win land in wars. I can't think of many places on the planet that are not occupied by the descendants of people who won it from some other people.
Also,
Mexico only had that land because it had been given to them by Spain. They had not won it or bought it themselves.

One misc. point I would like to make is that I don't see a problem with providing translations for as many languages as we possibly can--besides I believe this will soon be a reality since AI technology will make this feasible quite soon.

Well, that may be. The *English as an official language* issue is not one of the ones that preoccupies me as much as some others. You may be right.

I am looking forward to checking out that website you have mentioned Lilly.

Okay, let me go get that for you now...
Here it is:

http://www.latinoamericans.org/

Lilly Marlene

04-02-2007, 01:08 PM

Koios,

Wanted to apologize to you for the tone I took yesterday in one of the posts; I came back and edited out a bit of snarkiness in it.

The problem is that we had company (and will have for the rest of the week) and I was growing exasperated because of ceaseless interruptions. I'm sorry, I think that it came through in my post.

Your equanimity is very commendable; you keep a great balance. I wondered how it was going to go, with one of the moderators becoming very active in the debate - because that was what lead to the breakdown on the other board: two of the hosts actually started deleting our posts when we would neutralize their points !

But you seem able to carry it off very well.

Koios

04-02-2007, 02:52 PM

Thanks, and don’t worry about it Lilly, I know what you mean.

That’s a shame though... about the other board. I think one of the key aspects of engaging in a debate is realizing you can’t always “win”. As proven by this thread—many times you guys have refuted my points so well that you have made me go back and reevaluate my own reasoning.

Well, I’ll see you again once your break is over. Maybe a new “hot topic” will emerge by then.

Friendindeed

04-02-2007, 03:56 PM

Koios, no problem I know I do things like that too.

It is a losing battle but not for the reason you might think: the real reason is because there really is no persuasive argument IN FAVOR OF a policy which harms many US citizens, just to benefit

1. Global governance agendas;
2. Corporations and other business persons;
3. Citizens from other nations.

Yes, those are the three chief beneficiaries of illegal immigration.

The first two are the draw for President Bush and his kind.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/2soon2say/cid_003301c713bcbdc40cb043ed7a41har.jpg

If those first two stopped being a motivation, he would drop his amnesty crusade like a flaming potato.

But even if all these efforts were only for the sake of the illegal immigrants, it would be wrong because it harms Americans.
Just as parents must take care of their own children before the neighbor's, so must a nation take care of its own people before the people of a neighboring nation.

Good point Lily and I had to compliment you on the picture.

I saw some of the fallout from the Newt Gingrich speech and I am with USMC on this one, good on Newt that he speaks what so many of us are thinking instead of pandering like other pols.

HighVoltage123

04-04-2007, 07:15 AM

Friendindeed

04-04-2007, 02:24 PM

I think that knowing foreign languages is great but I also think that in every country there should be only one official language... and that emigrants should actually know the official language of the country before moving to live there.

Agreed, or at least learn it as quickly as they can instead of expect their new country to tailor everything to them.

Koios

04-10-2007, 01:33 PM

I think this speaks for itself:

ZpZcRDSruNI

He made a critical mistake.... glad to see he acknowledges it and stepped of to apologize for his rhetoric.

MichaelH

04-12-2007, 07:31 AM

Saying something like, "language of the ghetto" is terribly politically incorrect...so offensive to those who wish to be offended...but also so terribly correct in the United States. We're not talking here about Castilian Spanish...we're talking about the "Mexicanized" Spanish of the illegal alien.

Unfortunately for the PC crowd, they really can't fire Newt. Don Imus is another story...they can "get at" him (and -- if news this morning is to be trusted -- evidently they have)

While looking at the ubiquitous "contradictions" extant from the PC folks, note that they haven't taken on either Jesse Jackson or Sharpton...both of whom are racist to the core. They also leave the Senior Senator from the great State of West Virginia alone...but, what the hell, a few years wearing a white sheet with eye-holes isn't important, is it? ;)

vyo476

04-12-2007, 07:44 AM

I guess the bottom line is that Mr. Gingrich just worded the thing badly. People who know English here in America are going to do better than people who don't, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone, liberal or conservative, who would disagree with that statement. That said, for organizational purposes having a single "national language" would be highly beneficial - or, to put it in better terms, not having a single national language would be and is highly detrimental. I am not a religious person in any way but I think the story of the Tower of Babel fits pretty nicely with our present situation.

The thing that the people who are pressing the opposite side of this argument need to realize is that we are not discriminating against foreign cultures trying to enter America. America is, was, and always will be a melting pot of different cultures and we're not trying to change that. What we are trying to do is improve everyone's chances of succeeding and America's chances of persisting. It doesn't matter one way or the other to any of us if immigrants retain their original language so long as they make an attempt to learn English. This doesn't have anything to do with racism or bigotry or elitism or any of that stuff, it has to do with economic and societal solidarity.

MichaelH

04-12-2007, 07:51 AM

Friendindeed

04-12-2007, 08:55 PM

Last 4 posts = good