Waco - What Really Happened?

[Truth-Bringer]

The evidence and facts shown in the documentaries "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" http://www.waco93.com

and "Waco: A New Revelation"

http://www.getwaco.com

clearly demonstrate that the government lied on multiple occasions, and then in a routine move - the government TRIED TO COVER IT ALL UP. The government hasn't refuted ANYTHING in those films, nor could the truth in those films ever be refuted.

The truth is obvious to anyone who considers the facts. If the BATF thought Koresh was so out of control, why did their undercover agents hand their guns to Koresh to have him reload them during target practice when they had infiltrated his compound a few weeks earlier?:

http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/waco4.html

And let's say for the sake of the argument that the Sheriff was afraid to serve them with a warrant, although he has never said such, then the BATF could have asked for the Sheriff's cooperation in telling them where Koresh would go when he left the compound and they could have arrested him. It could have been a simple arrest, but the government wanted a show.

[Truth-Bringer]

Some of the agents in the front of the building recalled that they first thought bullets were coming from the building, but then realized they were coming from all directions. ATF agent Rick Cook said, "It was surreal." Wayne Martin, a 42-year-old black lawyer in Waco who knew many of those in the Sheriff's Department, redialed 911.

"There are men, 75 men around our building shooting at us," said Martin. "Tell them there are children and women in here and to call it off." Lt. Larry Lynch, of the county sheriff's department, apparently unsure of what was unfolding, came to the telephone. "Hello, I hear gunfire. Oh s***, hello, who is this? Hello?"

Martin: "Call it off!"

Lynch: "Who is this? Hello? Hello? God Almighty!"

Martin: "Help! We're being attacked! This is the Mt. Carmel Center! We're under attack!"

The 911 operator disconnected them. A few minutes later, Koresh redialed 911, noting that he had been trying to call in.

"This is who?" asked a dispatcher.

"David Koresh, Mount Carmel Center. We're being shot up all out here," Koresh said, as Lynch returned to the telephone. "You killed some of my children. We told you we wanted to talk... There is a bunch of us dead and a bunch of you guys dead. Now, now, that's your fault."

Lynch: "Okay, let's try to resolve this now. Tell me this, now, you have casualties, how many casualties, do you want to try to work something out? ATF is pulling back, we're trying to, uhm--"

Koresh: "Why didn't you do that first?"

Lynch: "Okay, all I'm, all I'm doing is handling communications. I can't give you that answer, David...."

Koresh: "Yeah, well, really. let me tell you something."

Lynch: "Okay."

Koresh: "In our great country here, the United States, you know God has given us a rich history of patriotism. We're not trying to be bad guys."

Lynch was trying to reach Cavanaugh or anyone in authority at the ATF command post, but they would not respond. Martin came back on the speaker phone.

Martin: "I'm under fire!"

Lynch: "Are you hurt?"

Martin: "I'm okay."

Lynch: "Wayne, cease firing. Do you hear me, Wayne? Cease firing."

After a long pause, with only the sound of gunfire, Martin came back on. "I have a right to defend myself. (pause) They started shooting. (pause) They started firing first. There are women and children in here!"

Lynch: "Let's try and resolve this. I'm trying to make contact with the forces out there."

"Stop firing!" Off phone, Lynch hears Martin say, "Stan, don't return fire, okay?" There is a distant reply. "We haven't been." Then a storm of gunfire. "They are attacking us again!"

Lynch: "No, they're not!"

Martin: "Yes, they are! Don't call me a liar!"

http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/albertbates/akbwaco.html


Contrary to their intelligence assessment, ATF was not dealing with a "destructive cult" of compliant, brainwashed robots. Douglas Wayne Martin was a graduate of Harvard Law School. He had a wife and seven children. For seven years he was an assistant professor at the North Carolina Central University School of Law. Many who knew Wayne Martin describe him as a quiet, jovial and religious person, and found it hard to believe he could have been involved in anything so violent. He was routinely described as professionally competent in court. "It was common knowledge that he was a Davidian," said McLennan County Commissioner Lester Gibson, "but he never talked religion."

http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/albertbates/akbwaco.html

[Truth-Bringer]

There were some legal issues with the warrant itself:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/warrant.htm

Also, the BATF didn't bring the warrants--which would make their raid illegal.

2 of many questions that were never asked of Congress:

# 6. Why didn't BATF tell Congress it had no plan for peaceful service of warrants--and that agents forgot to bring the warrants?

** BATF did not have a no knock warrant which would allow them to bust in unannounced, yet they never practiced anything but a forced entry into several parts of the building at once. (When one representative asked what happened when BATF went out to "knock on their door and they started shooting," BATF officials did not correct his misconception.)

** Agents did not have a plan to stop their aggressive actions in busting into the house even if Koresh immediately surrendered.

** No agent was assigned to announce the warrant, no Davidians heard them do so, and no agents originally admitted doing so--until after they talked with Treasury Department agents.

** At trial agents admitted agents actually forgot to bring the warrants with them when they raided Mount Carmel.

# 7. Why didn't BATF tell Congress it expected a "shootout"?

** BATF agents expected a shootout. Agents admitted they anticipated they would be met with force and that agents were told to mark their blood types on their necks for medical purposes if they were wounded.

** The Treasury report admits the newsman who accidently warned a Davidian about the upcoming raid said it would be a "shootout" involving helicopters, obviously what agents were telling others.

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.questions.html

[The_Giver]

I have no idea how I had never heard about this... almost reads like fiction.

[Truth-Bringer]

I have no idea how I had never heard about this... almost reads like fiction.

You never heard about it because the government lied and the media never bothered to question the government. Go rent those DVDs and you'll learn quite a bit. They're available on Netflix if you're a member.

[vyo476]

You've gathered an impressive wealth of information here, but I still can't help but feel like most of what happened to the Branch-Dividians in Waco had more to do with government ineptitude in handling cults than about conspiracy. Yeah, the government messed things up in Waco, but no one's shy about admitting it. No, it doesn't particularly matter to anyone anymore - but how many people today spend time thinking about Jonestown? Granted, there are HUGE differences between Jonestown and Waco, but both involved a large scale tragedy, and no one really cares anymore. Passage of time, not government cover-up.

[Truth-Bringer]

You've gathered an impressive wealth of information here, but I still can't help but feel like most of what happened to the Branch-Dividians in Waco had more to do with government ineptitude in handling cults than about conspiracy. Yeah, the government messed things up in Waco, but no one's shy about admitting it. No, it doesn't particularly matter to anyone anymore - but how many people today spend time thinking about Jonestown? Granted, there are HUGE differences between Jonestown and Waco, but both involved a large scale tragedy, and no one really cares anymore. Passage of time, not government cover-up.

Go rent those DVDs and you may feel differently.

[Rokerijdude11]

great info

[Freethinker]

IMHO Koresh was a charlitan meglomaniac when he found out how easily he could manipulate people he took on an ego of self aggrandisment he literally thought he was god. He soon embarked on endevors relating to greater power including military might. Left unchecked he would have no doubt created an army of christian killers. We as a country were lucky to have a justice system at that time who could see the danger he was to the country and the world and cut him down in the nick of time. Janet Reno is my hero.

[Abraxis Axis]

hahahahah
Janet Sterno

[Truth-Bringer]

Left unchecked he would have no doubt created an army of christian killers.

ROTFLMAO. Yeah, right... And Saddam would have taken over the world with his thousands of WMD's if we hadn't gone into Iraq. You demonstrate the same "reasoning" as Bushie & Company.

[Freethinker]

You tell me what a "good christian " church leader wants hundreds of automatic weapons for... Oh yeah they were gun show "investments".Hah
When that bastard found out from the ATF he couldnt go unchecked as a gun toting, bible thumpin', power hungry, self diafied, insestuious child molester, the cowardly slime ball set fire to his own compoud and shot himself. It was exactly like Jonestown without the kool-aid. I can't understand why the Feds let him go so long holding his own children and followers as hostages.
Bushie and company need to be impeached and convicted for the WMD lies perpertrated on the American people and the Iraqis were 1000 times better off under Sadam than under the Bush regime. And what the hell does that have to do with Koresh anyhow???

[Abraxis Axis]

You tell me what a "good christian " church leader wants hundreds of automatic weapons for... Oh yeah they were gun show "investments".Hah


Soon enough you will see why they had those weapons and that ideology.... although they were way out there.... SOME of theyre ideology it seems is in sync in todays world


When that bastard found out from the ATF he couldnt go unchecked as a gun toting, bible thumpin', power hungry, self diafied, insestuious child molester, the cowardly slime ball set fire to his own compoud and shot himself.


what planet or cave are you living in? Janet Sterno issued the orders that sealed that fate of the Davidians...... this guy was a whackjob but apprently no moreso that Janet Sterno...(reno)

there is CONCLUSIVE video footage and documentary footage that chronicles the ATF and FBI incompetence that SET FIRE to the compound

your dis-illusioned as well as mis-informed that compound was burned by federal agents under orders by Sterno(reno)



It was exactly like Jonestown without the kool-aid. I can't understand why the Feds let him go so long holding his own children and followers as hostages.


once again your limited knowledge and understanding of what REALLY happened at waco is apparent....it was NOTHING like Jonestown you need to learn before you speak ....hows that foot tasting right now?

Bushie and company need to be impeached and convicted for the WMD lies perpertrated on the American people and the Iraqis were 1000 times better off under Sadam than under the Bush regime. And what the hell does that have to do with Koresh anyhow???

ummmmm im with ya here on all of this i agree

[Freethinker]

I saw those supposed "documentary" movies about the insanity that happened at Waco. The movies were made employing emotional manipulation cherry picked "testimony" of Davidians and in no way were an impartial representation of what happened or what Koresh was. They may as well have been produced by Koreshes P.R. man. The "evidence " of which you speak was, at best contrived, without any scientific merit and not at all convincing to anyone without sympathies toward Koresh and his made up wacked out religion. The movie with its ominous droning music and the narrators solemn foretelling tone revealed this conspiratorial and accusitory piece of fantasy for what it is ...a one sided propagandic tabloid hunk of trash.
You were suckered in.

I can't imagine any recent example that could be more like Jonestown than Waco is. From the new salvation nature of the wackjob cult, to the obvious dillusions of absolute power the leader was under and his proclivity towards paranoyac violence and total control. Also his resignation to kill all in his cult, including himself rather than face the secular justice of the real world.

Some of those among us, felt Koresh was "in sync with the modern world" and decided blowing up a government building in Oklahoma was a good idea to comemorate the anniversary. I suggest you reconsider the company you keep, in your sympathy for this scumball Koresh.

[OPGhostdog]

This is another example of the Government committing a unwanted
situation. I can't believe what happened in Waco. That situation
could have been handled far better then it was handled. To me
the Government could not resisted the thought of being nosie,
and had to create a problem with these people on the compound.

The question is..Why did the Government feel insecured in the
first place? What I think was the Government was affaid that
the Davidians was preparing for a revolution to happen, and
Janet Reno wanted to make a name for herself by taking out
the entire cult.

This is how our Government thinks, and our own government don't
give a damn about you or me. I have to agree with the majority of
the following quote by vyo476. [ Posted by vyo476]
I still can't help but feel like most of what happened to the
Branch-Dividians in Waco had more to do with government
ineptitude in handling cults than about conspiracy. Yeah,
the government messed things up in Waco, but no one's shy
about admitting it. No, it doesn't particularly matter to anyone
anymore - but how many people today spend time thinking about
Jonestown? Granted, there are HUGE differences between Jonestown
and Waco, but both involved a large scale tragedy, and no one really
cares anymore. Passage of time, not government cover-up.

Look at the Women and Children that was killed because of a
government error, and we are suppose to be PROUD of that?
The Davidians reminded me of groups like the Mormons or the
Quakers. They was in their own little world, and their world was
invaded. Again, It was a conspiracy by the government to go
after these people.

In closing the Government went after these people like Bush
invaded Iraq, and by the Davidian community being small they
was ready to handle the invaders. Jonestown was a complete
different situation. Jimmy Jones was responsible for what did
happen in Jonestown.

[Think for myself]

This is another example of the Government committing a unwanted
situation. I can't believe what happened in Waco. That situation
could have been handled far better then it was handled. To me
the Government could not resisted the thought of being nosie,
and had to create a problem with these people on the compound.

The question is..Why did the Government feel insecured in the
first place? What I think was the Government was affaid that
the Davidians was preparing for a revolution to happen, and
Janet Reno wanted to make a name for herself by taking out
the entire cult.

.


Well, maybe it was the massive stockpile of illegal weapons. Maybe it was the fact that the cult was run by a pedophile. Both sound like good reasons to me to attempt to arrest him. All he had to do was stand up and face the charges.. It certainly could have been handled better, but Koresh broke the law in the first place.

[OPGhostdog]

Well, maybe it was the massive stockpile of illegal weapons. Maybe it was the fact that the cult was run by a pedophile. Both sound like good reasons to me to attempt to arrest him. All he had to do was stand up and face the charges.. It certainly could have been handled better, but Koresh broke the law in the first place.

By him breaking the law was it necessary to take out the women
and children? Did they break the law? To me I could accept the
fact that they was after Koresh, but to destory everybody was
uncalled for, and I did not like that move one damn bit.

Whenever a crisis like Waco arrives there should be proof, and
not a maybe guess.

[Think for myself]

By him breaking the law was it necessary to take out the women
and children? Did they break the law? To me I could accept the
fact that they was after Koresh, but to destory everybody was
uncalled for, and I did not like that move one damn bit.

Whenever a crisis like Waco arrives there should be proof, and
not a maybe guess.

Well, to avoid all of the trouble, and all of the death, all Koresh had to do was give up. This entire thing started because he broke the law.

[Abraxis Axis]

I saw those supposed "documentary" movies about the insanity that happened at Waco. The movies were made employing emotional manipulation cherry picked "testimony" of Davidians and in no way were an impartial representation of what happened or what Koresh was. They may as well have been produced by Koreshes P.R. man. The "evidence " of which you speak was, at best contrived, without any scientific merit and not at all convincing to anyone without sympathies toward Koresh and his made up wacked out religion.

the problem with your flawwwed logic is from multiple areas of your thinking...first off there was sceintific calculations used as well as many scientific theories that were proven to be true......the evidence all suuggests that the fire were started by the FEDS not the Davidians............do i really believe Janet sterno said Burn -em -out? No of course not but she did give the orders that started tyhe chain of events which led to the Fires that destroyed the compound...........the Davidians DID NOT set fire to the complex your simply WRONG


secondly I wasnt sympathetic to Koresh, Didnt believe in Koresh or his teachings .....I didnt even like what he stood for in short I had NO feelings for the whackjob Known as David Koresh other than i felt he was a whackjob.......so again your flawwed logic does not stand the test of reality im afraid

The movie with its ominous droning music and the narrators solemn foretelling tone revealed this conspiratorial and accusitory piece of fantasy for what it is ...a one sided propagandic tabloid hunk of trash.
You were suckered in.

again flawwed logic floats to the surface...do you think before posting this drivel? I wasnt the one who was suckered in by anything

It was YOU who has been suckered there friend

you say youve seen the MOVIES plural well i referred to documentaries not the Made for tv Drivel and you refer to multiples as though youve seen them all but in the next breath the MOVIE singular is a piece of trash? your basically full of Shat and it is YOU buddy who has been suckered By your own government



I can't imagine any recent example that could be more like Jonestown than Waco is. From the new salvation nature of the wackjob cult, to the obvious dillusions of absolute power the leader was under and his proclivity towards paranoyac violence and total control. Also his resignation to kill all in his cult, including himself rather than face the secular justice of the real world.

again you demonstrate to us how little you really know about what happened in these 2 events there is no comparison..only in you lil head?

Some of those among us, felt Koresh was "in sync with the modern world" and decided blowing up a government building in Oklahoma was a good idea to comemorate the anniversary. I suggest you reconsider the company you keep, in your sympathy for this scumball Koresh.
Im afraid you are flatly mistaken once again! I have no support for Koresh? Never did i dont subscribe to his whackjob teachings? But what I DO know is the Davidians were Burned out By the Feds at the Orders of Janet Sterno there is no debating these FACTS.......i suggest you try and learn a lil about the subjects you speak about before embarrassing yourself like this in the future


as i see you believe anything the Federal Government tells you right up to and including the Murrah building.....your simply a waste of time......you have been brainwashed

[Abraxis Axis]

Well, maybe it was the massive stockpile of illegal weapons. Maybe it was the fact that the cult was run by a pedophile. Both sound like good reasons to me to attempt to arrest him. All he had to do was stand up and face the charges.. It certainly could have been handled better, but Koresh broke the law in the first place.

yeah he broke the law lets go kill all the women and children
lets kill em all i mean they broke the law right?
what about Ruby Ridge then?


How about Tom And Rollie in Vandalia Michigan who were gunned down in front of theyre children

this is getting to be commonplace with the feds and all you spoon fed lackeys just go about your business as though nothing is wrong....

sheep to slaughter comes to mind

[Think for myself]

Im afraid you are flatly mistaken once again! I have no support for Koresh? Never did i dont subscribe to his whackjob teachings? But what I DO know is the Davidians were Burned out By the Feds at the Orders of Janet Sterno there is no debating these FACTS.......i suggest you try and learn a lil about the subjects you speak about before embarrassing yourself like this in the future


as i see you believe anything the Federal Government tells you right up to and including the Murrah building.....your simply a waste of time......you have been brainwashed

You can debate those facts, as there is overwhelming evidence that Koresh and his followers lit the building on fire.

[Think for myself]

yeah he broke the law lets go kill all the women and children
lets kill em all i mean they broke the law right?
what about Ruby Ridge then?


How about Tom And Rollie in Vandalia Michigan who were gunned down in front of theyre children

this is getting to be commonplace with the feds and all you spoon fed lackeys just go about your business as though nothing is wrong....

sheep to slaughter comes to mind

In all of those instances those people were wanted for crimes involving fire arms. If they had faced trial, they would be alive today.

[Abraxis Axis]

You can debate those facts, as there is overwhelming evidence that Koresh and his followers lit the building on fire.

you are simply WRONG

care to produce the "Smoking gun" the PROOF that the Davidians set the fire?

or was it a badly botched attempt by the feds to flush them from the building?

sheep ......sheesh

[Abraxis Axis]

In all of those instances those people were wanted for crimes involving fire arms. If they had faced trial, they would be alive today.

kill em all they broke the law I understand your childish thinking now thanks for the clarification

[Think for myself]

you are simply WRONG

I'm sorry, but I will respectfully ask that you take the tone of your message down a notch.

Now, there have been numerous substantiated reports that the Branch Davidians spread straw and lit themselves on fire. You are free to believe what you wish, but do not tell me I am wrong.

[Abraxis Axis]

I'm sorry, but I will respectfully ask that you take the tone of your message down a notch.

Now, there have been numerous substantiated reports that the Branch Davidians spread straw and lit themselves on fire. You are free to believe what you wish, but do not tell me I am wrong.

care to provide some smoking Gun Proof? i see you sidestepped that issue in favor of your OPINION which i still say is WRONG

[Think for myself]

care to provide some smoking Gun Proof? i see you sidestepped that issue in favor of your OPINION which i still say is WRONG

Care to provide a bit of proof that states the official report is wrong? Just a modicum? Anything other than Art Bell type stuff?

As for my alleged childish thinking, let me assure you that I forment an actual opinion based on fact, not possibility.

[Rokerijdude11]

I have watched 11 documentaries on this subject
the Feds did not PURPOSELY start the fires at waco.............

BUT NONETHELESS they were RESPONSIBLE for the fires getting out of hand by ripping large air holes through the structure with tanks giving the fires the oxygyn they needed to grow

the documentarie out there CLEARLY SHOW how the FEDS were the ones who set the fires plain and simple

as for you suppositions on the other scenarios Tom and Rollie were UN-Armed and gunned down in front of children...........your WRONG about how and what happened there PERIOD

I was THERE...........were You? Vandalia Michigan look it up the Rainbow farms the annual Hash Bash........i knew these Guys personally they were of NO THREAT TO ANYONE yet they were Murdered in cold Blood by the federal govermenet

much like the Davidians at WACO

Im sorry you just dont seem very educated in this area? or perhaps you are just to smug on the Government tit?
whatever .there is no PROOF that Koresh started the fires nor is there any proof that any of the davidians did yet there are at least 11 documentaries that show how the FEDS did start the fires????

no art bell documentaries are there?

childish quippings kill them they broke the law............superb

[Think for myself]

I have watched 11 documentaries on this subject
the Feds did not PURPOSELY start the fires at waco.............

BUT NONETHELESS they were RESPONSIBLE for the fires getting out of hand by ripping large air holes through the structure with tanks giving the fires the oxygyn they needed to grow

the documentarie out there CLEARLY SHOW how the FEDS were the ones who set the fires plain and simple

as for you suppositions on the other scenarios Tom and Rollie were UN-Armed and gunned down in front of children...........your WRONG about how and what happened there PERIOD

I was THERE...........were You? Vandalia Michigan look it up the Rainbow farms the annual Hash Bash........i knew these Guys personally they were of NO THREAT TO ANYONE yet they were Murdered in cold Blood by the federal govermenet

much like the Davidians at WACO

Im sorry you just dont seem very educated in this area? or perhaps you are just to smug on the Government tit?
whatever .there is no PROOF that Koresh started the fires nor is there any proof that any of the davidians did yet there are at least 11 documentaries that show how the FEDS did start the fires????

no art bell documentaries are there?

childish quippings kill them they broke the law............superb


I'm sorry, but it may take me a while to decipher this.

You may have seen 11 documentaries. What does that matter? Not everything is a conspiracy theory. Not everything is done by the federal government. Remeber, you are now defending the right of a child molestor to saty in his home with children. You are now defending a religious fantatic who had illegal assault weapons.

[Rokerijdude11]

I'm sorry, but it may take me a while to decipher this.

You may have seen 11 documentaries. What does that matter? Not everything is a conspiracy theory. Not everything is done by the federal government. Remeber, you are now defending the right of a child molestor to saty in his home with children. You are now defending a religious fantatic who had illegal assault weapons.

I am?


HOLD THE PHONE...........STOP THE PRESSES!!!!

your kidding right? I somehow now am Defending a child molester? and im defending a religious fanatic?
how the fock is that skippy the freethinker? first of all all i have told you is that there IS SCIENTIFIC and VIDEOTAPED PROOF that the complex was ACCIDENTLY set ablaze by the FEDS

where did I ever say it was a CONSPIRACY?its FACTUAL TRUTH...........


I have seen far far too many tapes and read far too much testimony from professionals to change my position on these FACTS

Now Moving On to your CHILDISH suppositions on My defense of something that I CLEARLY never stated.....this seems to be a real issue at this place all you focks ar always trying to say that people said shet they never said


I too think Koresh was a whackjob .....i didnt support him than and dont now Yes he broke the law yes he was a whackjob............but Can YOU TELL US where in the letter of the LAW that it states that because of thet we have the right to go in and murder all of those people in cold Blood?


of course they stayed in the complex they were whackjobs too.yes they were twisted...had crazy ideas but is THAT reason to KILL THEM ALL?


your simply childish in your attempts to debate the issue

[Rokerijdude11]

using G.W.'s logic.......if your not with us your against us

how childish and one dimensional

[Think for myself]

I am?


HOLD THE PHONE...........STOP THE PRESSES!!!!

your kidding right? I somehow now am Defending a child molester? and im defending a religious fanatic?
how the fock is that skippy the freethinker? first of all all i have told you is that there IS SCIENTIFIC and VIDEOTAPED PROOF that the complex was ACCIDENTLY set ablaze by the FEDS

where did I ever say it was a CONSPIRACY?its FACTUAL TRUTH...........


I have seen far far too many tapes and read far too much testimony from professionals to change my position on these FACTS

Now Moving On to your CHILDISH suppositions on My defense of something that I CLEARLY never stated.....this seems to be a real issue at this place all you focks ar always trying to say that people said shet they never said


I too think Koresh was a whackjob .....i didnt support him than and dont now Yes he broke the law yes he was a whackjob............but Can YOU TELL US where in the letter of the LAW that it states that because of thet we have the right to go in and murder all of those people in cold Blood?


of course they stayed in the complex they were whackjobs too.yes they were twisted...had crazy ideas but is THAT reason to KILL THEM ALL?


your simply childish in your attempts to debate the issue

Sorry, there is much more credible evidence that the Branch Davidians set themselves on fire.

[Rokerijdude11]

Sorry, there is much more credible evidence that the Branch Davidians set themselves on fire.

And yet through repeated requests you have been Un-Able to produce the Smoking Gun proof?

[Think for myself]

And yet through repeated requests you have been Un-Able to produce the Smoking Gun proof?

I'm sorry. I just assumed that you were familiar with the official report.
Here you go.
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacotocpg.htm#toc

[Rokerijdude11]

I'm sorry. I just assumed that you were familiar with the official report.
Here you go.
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacotocpg.htm#toc

Oh jesus another spoon fed Government tit sucker
yeah im likely to believe the report issued by the people responsible for the tragedy!!! theres no conflict of interest there?


if the Government says it ...it must be true!!!

how do you think for yourself a when you do all your thinking in a Goverment approved box?

[Think for myself]

Oh jesus another spoon fed Government tit sucker
yeah im likely to believe the report issued by the people responsible for the tragedy!!! theres no conflict of interest there?


if the Government says it ...it must be true!!!

how do you call yourself a freethinker when you do all your thinking in a Goverment approved box?

Well, not everything is a cover up or a conspiracy theory. The official reports were subject to bipartisan oversight. That lends much more credibility to me than a conspiracy theorist.

[Abraxis Axis]

Proof provided by the FEDS

thats rich

[Think for myself]

Proof provided by the FEDS

thats rich

That ranks much higher in my book than a theory from an organization that is convinced all that happens is a conspiracy.

[Rokerijdude11]

nor have i said it was a conspiracy.there is VIDEOGRAPHIC PROOF to support my position as well as statements from people that were there

what i said CLEARLY is that they did NOT INTENTIONALLY

Burn them Out.........it was an accident that was compounded by foolish mistakes made by federal agents on site at the time

[Rokerijdude11]

That ranks much higher in my book than a theory from an organization that is convinced all that happens is a conspiracy.

which organization is that ? i never mentioned a singular source or singular organization?

your stretching it now

[Think for myself]

nor have i said it was a conspiracy.there is VIDEOGRAPHIC PROOF to support my position as well as statements from people that were there

what i said CLEARLY is that they did NOT INTENTIONALLY

Burn them Out.........it was an accident that was compounded by foolish mistakes made by federal agents on site at the time

Additionally there are Branch Davidian survivors that stated that they set the fire.

[Abraxis Axis]

Ok i believe it becuase YOU said so

you have no proof just opinions my boy

you have twisted and turned like a child in a dentists chair in this thread

[Think for myself]

Ok i believe it becuase YOU said so

you have no proof just opinions my boy

you have twisted and turned like a child in a dentists chair in this thread

No, I believe I stated my case clearly based on fact. Just because I refuse to change my mind to some conspiracy theory should be indicative of my belief in the truth based on the facts presented.

[Rokerijdude11]

what facts? because you say so they are facts? you have consistently failed to produce Un-Biased smoking gun evidence which you claim exists

if it did why not produce it? probably because you are un-able to do so.....

Abraxis has repeatedly requested you provide proof you clearly provided your OPINION

and clearly provided yet ANOTHER conspiracy of your own

[Think for myself]

what facts? because you say so they are facts? you have consistently failed to produce Un-Biased smoking gun evidence which you claim exists

if it did why not produce it? probably because you are un-able to do so.....

Abraxis has repeatedly requested you provide proof you clearly provided your OPINION

and clearly provided yet ANOTHER conspiracy of your own

No, I cited the goverment report, which I consider to be factual and correct.

[Rokerijdude11]

And i find it to be Mere conspiracy

authored by those who perpetrated the crimes at Waco

do you have an Un-Biased report?

never mind i know the answer keep on suckling that government tet buddy it suits you well

[Think for myself]

And i find it to be Mere conspiracy

authored by those who perpetrated the crimes at Waco

do you have an Un-Biased report?

never mind i know the answer keep on suckling that government tet buddy it suits you well

I'm not really sure what your breast feeding analogy is supposed to mean, but plkease remember this. You are the one name calling. You are the one accussing. I am the one defending my position.

[Rokerijdude11]

defending it with opinions yes you are doing that

no real Un-Biased facts to support your theory though


Btw saying you feed off the government tet isnt name calling?


simply stating what i see from where i sit

[Abraxis Axis]

You called Him "Childish"

you rotten bastard

[Rokerijdude11]

OMG

your kidding me right? "childish" ......oooooooooUCH

that was hard hitting offensive name calling right there

[Think for myself]

OMG

your kidding me right? "childish" ......oooooooooUCH

that was hard hitting offensive name calling right there

Would you care to add anything else?

[9sublime]

Don't worry I think Rokers just having an argument with himself.

[Think for myself]

Don't worry I think Rokers just having an argument with himself.

No doubt. Strange how they both have the same grammar and viewpoints.

[Abraxis Axis]

9 sublime has an obsession with Roker................i think he pines for him

[Abraxis Axis]

No doubt. Strange how they both have the same grammar and viewpoints.

yeah nobody EVER has the same viewpoints do they?

[Think for myself]

yeah nobody EVER has the same viewpoints do they?

I have looked back on your and your pseudonyms' postings. You always mirror each other, and follow each other. Your grammar is equal distinct, for lack of a better term, and your usage of identical words in your arguments (childish, womens gun) lead me to believe that you are one in the same.

[Rokerijdude11]

fabulous thanks for the in depth reporting.....your a genius

[9sublime]

Jack Herers 10,000,000 dollars has only been bought up by you and Abraxis.


Funny how Roker gets banned, tries unimagniativley to make Rokerijdude12, but someone somehow sees through that. Then, up springs Abraxis, and hes just like you.

If its not you, I would consider you two met up. You would have so much to talk about.

[Abraxis Axis]

No doubt. Strange how they both have the same grammar and viewpoints.

Even stranger yet?..........................

is the Fact that NEITHER of them heve ever Confirmed or Denied anything?

what a bunch of obsessed tail chasers

[OPGhostdog]

In my opinion I do not like what happened in WACO. I do believe
that the situation could have been handled better then what it
was, and the Feds had no rights to set the fire. I understand
Koresh's position as the leader, and what I am saying is he gave
the group a plan to carry out. That explains the weapons and
everything else.

Let me make this clear..Just because I made the above statement.
Do not mean that I am supporting Koresh, but I am stating my own
opinion about how gung-ho our government really is. As from Rainbow
Farms I am going to do more research of that, and my findings
will be posted here on the House of Politics.

In closing..it seems to me like everything that the government gets
involved in it seems to always turn out a damn mess. Why can't the
Government do anything right?

[Rokerijdude11]

In my opinion I do not like what happened in WACO. ........... As from Rainbow
Farms I am going to do more research of that, and my findings
will be posted here on the House of Politics.

In closing..it seems to me like everything that the government gets
involved in it seems to always turn out a damn mess. Why can't the
Government do anything right?

http://cannabisnews.com/news/17/thread17211.shtml

[Freethinker]

Whether the ATF ,the FBI or the branch Davidians set the fires is a moot point. Somehow many posting here seem to believe that if the government set the fires then Koresh and his army of religious zombies were exonorated and become inocent victims. The fact is they were stopped and that is all that is important. It is unfortunate that many of their kids got killed in the extermination of these sick, preverted, cowardly, power mongering, insestuous pedopliles , but this was the doing of the davidians. They held their own as hostage in the belief that they could get away with anything if they hid behind their own offspring. I personally believe the davidians set the fires and purposely killed themselves and their own.

[Truth-Bringer]

I saw those supposed "documentary" movies about the insanity that happened at Waco. The movies were made employing emotional manipulation cherry picked "testimony" of Davidians and in no way were an impartial representation of what happened or what Koresh was. They may as well have been produced by Koreshes P.R. man. The "evidence " of which you speak was, at best contrived, without any scientific merit and not at all convincing to anyone without sympathies toward Koresh and his made up wacked out religion.

B.S. SPECIFICALLY STATE what you're referring to, you lying fraud.

The first movie FORCED A NEW CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION. If it's so biased and contrived, why on earth did it cause an outrage among fair-minded people?

You are nothing but a lying fraud.

Also - if you really did watch the movies as you claim, then explain precisely what the satellite photography revealed. Just give us the brief explanation. Or have you been caught lying?...

[Truth-Bringer]

Whether the ATF ,the FBI or the branch Davidians set the fires is a moot point.

ROTFLMAO!!! You are insane!

[Truth-Bringer]

Why can't the
Government do anything right?

Now there's a valid question...

[Abraxis Axis]

Whether the ATF ,the FBI or the branch Davidians set the fires is a moot point. Somehow many posting here seem to believe that if the government set the fires then Koresh and his army of religious zombies were exonorated and become inocent victims. The fact is they were stopped and that is all that is important. It is unfortunate that many of their kids got killed in the extermination of these sick, preverted, cowardly, power mongering, insestuous pedopliles , but this was the doing of the davidians. They held their own as hostage in the belief that they could get away with anything if they hid behind their own offspring. I personally believe the davidians set the fires and purposely killed themselves and their own.

your clinically insane you should seek help

[OPGhostdog]

Now there's a valid question...

Truth, After spending a few days researching some of the incidents
that involved our government. Each one has proven that the United
States government should have been convicted many times of War
crimes. We have betrayed many people's (Countries) faith who once
believed in us.

I was reviewing my research work on Wounded Knee. It may not
mean anything to many of you, but to me its important due to the
fact that our government turned on the Chief Sitting Bull, and
taking their land by invading their land by force. This is the same
picture that I am seeing in Iraq.

As a matter of fact where ever we go we take everything over,
and usually we are the ones who seem to be the biggest losers.
We losted many lifes in every War or conflict that we have ever
been involved in. This include the Waco situation, but in Waco
the government took more lives then they lost, and yet the US
government is still in denial about the final report contents.

[drippinhun]

I was surprised that the government waited as long as they did. You or me committed a crime and were surrounded by law enforcement, I doubt they would be so generous after giving us a deadline to come out.

[OPGhostdog]

I was surprised that the government waited as long as they did. You or me committed a crime and were surrounded by law enforcement, I doubt they would be so generous after giving us a deadline to come out.

Drippinhun, You are so right, and this is what led me to believe
that the government had planned this long before it happened.
If it would have been you or me the event would have taken
place as soon as their arrived on location.

[rmbarron]

The fact is they were stopped and that is all that is important.

I have to ask...stopped from doing what? The weapons they had were stocked in preperation for the "end times," when they (and many a Christian sect that would not be refered to as wackos) believe they will have to fight the war of all wars to defend their holy land. The pedophilia charges were always questionable at best. So, assuming you can't prove pedophilia what were they doing that needed stopping? How were they any more dangerous than Mormons or any of a dozen religious sects that are prepping for Armagedon?

[Truth-Bringer]

Truth, After spending a few days researching some of the incidents
that involved our government. Each one has proven that the United
States government should have been convicted many times of War
crimes. We have betrayed many people's (Countries) faith who once
believed in us.

Yes, PG, the U.S. government is not the beacon of truth, love and justice that many portray it to be.

You might want to add the following to your research:

http://www.chaostan.com/whydotheyhateus.html

[OPGhostdog]

Thanks Truth_Bringer. I enjoy reading the truth about
our governemnt, and what they are doing behind our
backs. I am ashame of my government after putting
my life on the line for the country I once loved, but
after seeing that my government don't give a ****
about me that sucks, and especially after serving in
a war to protect our freedom in Viet Nam.

Truth, I will be looking at the url site you informed me
about, and Waco is just one of the many incidents
that became hell due to our government reactions.

Like on here people will try to make you see things their
way, but when it comes to you expressing your opinion
...according to them you're wrong. Its okay to agree or
disagree, but to give someone a online beatdown is un
called for, and Truth_Bringer people don't like the truth.

[Rokerijdude11]

yes good analogy friend .........very true particularly here

[Truth-Bringer]

Originally Posted by Freethinker
I saw those supposed "documentary" movies about the insanity that happened at Waco. The movies were made employing emotional manipulation cherry picked "testimony" of Davidians and in no way were an impartial representation of what happened or what Koresh was. They may as well have been produced by Koreshes P.R. man. The "evidence " of which you speak was, at best contrived, without any scientific merit and not at all convincing to anyone without sympathies toward Koresh and his made up wacked out religion.

B.S. SPECIFICALLY STATE what you're referring to, you lying fraud.

The first movie FORCED A NEW CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION. If it's so biased and contrived, why on earth did it cause an outrage among fair-minded people?

You are nothing but a lying fraud.

Also - if you really did watch the movies as you claim, then explain precisely what the satellite photography revealed. Just give us the brief explanation. Or have you been caught lying?...

Yes...you were caught lying, Freethinker. You didn't even watch the documentaries.

[Truth-Bringer]

Thanks Truth_Bringer. I enjoy reading the truth about
our governemnt, and what they are doing behind our
backs. I am ashame of my government after putting
my life on the line for the country I once loved, but
after seeing that my government don't give a ****
about me that sucks, and especially after serving in
a war to protect our freedom in Viet Nam.


All I can say is, "God bless you." You've opened your eyes. At least you're wide awake in reality, and not sleeping at the wheel, like most Americans.