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A big debt, or a bigger one, that is our choice.

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by PLC1, Apr 27, 2008.

  1. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Would you like a debt of $14.8 trillion, or merely one around $11 trillion?

    Is $110,000 per taxpayer enough, or shall we go for broke and owe $148,000 on our collective Mastercard?

    It seems that the choice is between the fiscally irresponsible Democratic Party, or the fiscally totally wreckless Republican Party. That has been the recent history of the two parties, of course, to raise the debt during Democratic administrations, and to raise it faster during Republican ones. I guess nothing has really changed, now has it?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/us/politics/27fiscal.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

    That is according to budget experts, not according to ideologues of the right or of the left. Do you think we can still believe them?
     
  2. American First

    American First New Member

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    I believe when Clinton left office, there was a surplus.
     
  3. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    If you don't count the money "borrowed" from Social Security, yes, there was a small surplus. He and his Republican Congress did much better than Bush and his Republican Congress, that had a $300 billion deficit last year, and still "borrowed" $177 billion from SS.

    As I said, the Democrats have a terrible record of fiscal responsibility, but the Republicans have a worse one yet.
     
  4. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

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    You should find this page interesting:

    http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebt.html

    There were a few years where he (the owner of that webpage) hadn't updated it but I see that he's gotten around to it finally. From his original comments, I'd gotten the impression that when he started out assembling the data to make the graphs, he'd had the idea that we were proceeding into horrific debt. In the final tally, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't so bad when you put it in the perspective of its percentage of the GDP.

    Me? I'd rather vote out all members of Congress that attempt to earmark but I don't think we'd have any left nor could recruit more to take their places.

    Pidgey
     
  5. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    That's an interesting site. Here's another: http://www.babylontoday.com/national_debt_clock.htm

    I'm pretty sure we could recruit more members of Congress. It's time to just vote the rascals out and elect new rascals. Not that it's likely to happen, you understand, but it would really shake things up.

    I think I'll run.
     
  6. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    There are two issues at hand, and neither is going away any time soon.

    First, and most important, the American people do not see debt as a problem. Just look at the average Americans finances... can you say broke and in debt? Is not the government a reflection of us? Why yes it is. You can read up how people want something so they just put in on a charge card. I've heard people say you can't live without debt or credit cards. A purely insane idea, yet it is conventional wisdom. Read up on bankruptcies, foreclosures, and how much the credit card companies make annually. After doing that, look at our government... is this a surprise?

    Solution: Change yourself. Live without debt. Pay off everything. If you don't have the cash to buy something... don't. If the culture changes... so will the government. In other places in the world, where the culture doesn't believe in credit or borrowing, neither does the government. This isn't hard.

    Second, there are fundamental views of government that are warring against each other, and caught in the middle is debt. On one side, is the view that government should stay inside the bounds of the constitution, and not spend on social programs, but rather, exclusively be for the protection of the nation through a strong military. On the other, is the socialism/liberal view that government is a the great benefactor that runs around to bail everyone out of their choices and help everyone through micromanagement of our lives, and that we don't need a military because everyone can be 'talked with'.

    So instead of either of those, we have a compromise where one side spends everything on military, and the other spends everything on social programs... and with both blowing tons of money, both over spend.

    Solution: One side must win. Either we embrace socialism and castrate our military, which will only last until our government either surrenders to another nation because of our weak military, or until our government realizes it's nessesity and rebuilds it, and throws us back into debt. Or, we embrace the wisdom of our constitution, and absolutely dismantle our socialized programs, cut out half the government, and reduce our spending to merely what is required for a fully functional military. At which point there will be no need to borrow money.
     
  7. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    We don't have to embrace socialism and castrate our military... and none of the old fear mongering lines ring true anymore.

    The truth is we are a great country with great resources. We absolutely positively must continue Social Security & Medicare for our seniors (keep in mind this program would be more than fully funded had it not been raided time and time again). I say lock up that fund so that can't continue.

    We will continue to have safety net programs for the poor and it is not a bad idea at all to have a national health care system. This isn't 1776 when the population was so small churches could truly help the poor and multiple generations of families lived together in a rural setting.

    IF WE CAN FLUSH $12,000,000,000 ($12 BILLION DOLLARS) PER MONTH IN A NATION BUILDING IRAQ FANTASY OF LIES... we can help those here at home.

    I also look at the last line in the above quote, "and reduce our spending to merely what is required for a fully functional military". This seems to be the castrating railed against just above, "Either we embrace socialism and castrate our military."

    The truth is we were fine with a military of pre-Iraq size. There will always be advances in technology that need to be infused but we have no need for a military of cold war dimensions. It's a new time and a new enemy.

    We can do so much better than we have over the last seven years. Electing someone that is exceedingly intelligent, thoughtful and steady... rational for Christ sake... could not be more important. Senator Barack Obama seems the one for the job.
     
  8. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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