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Are you a Collectivist or an Individualist?

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by GenSeneca, Nov 16, 2009.

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Are you a Collectivist or an Individualist?

  1. Collectivist

    7.7%
  2. Individualist

    92.3%
  3. I don't know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Collectivism is a term used to describe any doctrine that stresses the importance of a collective, rather than the importance of the individual. Collectivists believe the individual should be subordinate to the collective, which may be a group of individuals, a whole society, a state, a nation, a race, or a social class. Thus, collectivism contrasts with individualism, which emphasises the liberty of the individual.

    Some consider an early example of collectivist political philosophy to be Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s “social contract”, which maintains that each individual is under implicit contract to submit his own will to the “general will” and that the state should enforce this general will. This notion of an ethical obligation to subordinate an individual’s will to the group will is in fundamental opposition to individualism which advocates that individual action should not be restricted by others.

    VS.

    Individualism is a moral, political, and social philosophy, which emphasizes individual liberty, the primary importance of the individual, and the "virtues of self-reliance" and "personal independence". Individualism embraces opposition to authority, and to all manner of controls over the individual, especially when exercised by the political state or "society." It is thus directly opposed to collectivism, which advocates subordination of the individual to the will of the society or community. It is often confused with "egoism," but an individualist need not be an egoist.

    In political philosophy, the individualist theory of government holds that the state should take a merely defensive role by protecting the liberty of each individual to act as he wishes as long he does not infringe on the same liberty of another. This contrasts with collectivist political theories, where, rather than leaving the individual to pursue his own ends, the state ensures that the individual serves the interests of society when taken as a whole. It also contrasts with fascism, where the individual is required to serve the interests of the state. The term has also been used to describe "individual initiative" and "freedom of the individual" in general, perhaps best described by the French term "laissez faire," a verb meaning "to let [the people] do" [for themselves what they know how to do].

    In practice, individualists are chiefly concerned with protecting individual autonomy by opposing encroachment by the state. They pay particular attention to protecting the liberties of the minority against transgressions by the majority and see the individual as the smallest minority. For example, individualists oppose democratic systems unless constitutional protections exist that preserve individual liberty of individuals from being diminished by the interests of the majority. These concerns encompass both civil and economic liberties.

    One typical concern is the concentration of commercial and industrial enterprise in the hands of the state, and the municipality. The principles upon which this opposition is based are mainly two: that popularly-elected representatives are not likely to have the qualifications, or the sense of responsibility, required for dealing with the multitudinous enterprises, and the large sums of public money involved in civic administration; and that the "health of the state" depends upon the exertions of individuals for their personal benefit (who, "like cells", are the containers of the life of the body).
     
  2. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    I am an Individualist
     
  3. Bunz

    Bunz Well-Known Member

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    These are not black and white issues. As I often say, the two are not mutually exclusive. I am somewhere in the middle, and the descriptions in the original post are certainly slanted towards one ideology. Either way...

    I believe in ultimately providing for myself, and for my community. And in times of need for me, my community will help me. Its worked in my neck of the woods for at least 10,000 years.
     
  4. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    When your community helps you is it because they want to or because the government takes from them and gives to you?

    Someone who is an Individualist is not someone against the idea of helping others, they want to help others because they want to not because they are forced to by local, state or federal government.
     
  5. Bunz

    Bunz Well-Known Member

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    I assume you mean taking from me, as in paying taxes. In most cases I produce for more than I consume.
    To participate in being a true individualist, one would largely remove themselves from the general society. Otherwise they have a collected interest in the community at large. Therefore need to contribute to that cause. If you dont want to pay taxes, there are a bunch of places I could show you where you likely wouldnt have to. One who is selfish and unwilling to share with the society that has allowed those with the most to exist in the first place are free to pursue those measures on thier own outside of the society that they feel unfair to contribute to.
     
  6. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman Well-Known Member

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    ....And, whine-like-Hell when someone (else) hasn't filled-in the potholes on their street.

    :rolleyes:
     
  7. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman Well-Known Member

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    John-Wayne-fans; the ultra-Individualists (just like ol' Duke).

    :rolleyes:

     
  8. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    You twist it into something sick like a selfish person who does not want to pay their fair share of taxes.

    There are so many worth while things I am happy to be a part of and would be willing to give more to if my government didnt rape me each month.

    I dont want to pay for stupid useless programs that are currupt, heck no and I dont want to be forced to pay for anything outside of military and roads and those basic things that government was intended for.

    I would like to be able to give of my own free will to those things I find valuable or important. Not forced.


    Its not selfish to not want my money going to pay currupt groups like acorn, abortions or a hundred other sleezy programs that we are currently forced to participate in

    You are just too bias to see any other point of view than your own on this so its really rather pointless to talk about it.
     
  9. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman Well-Known Member

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    Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman Well-Known Member

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    ....Like wars-o'-CHOICE??!!!!

    (BTW....that's c-o-r-r-u-p-t.)​
     
  11. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    Ah thank you for the spell check
     
  12. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    First, I want to thank you for participating in this thread. You are able to disagre while still being respectful and since I couldn't say it publicly in the other thread, I do think you are a fair moderator and appreciate your service and contributions to the forum.

    It is black and white and they are mutually exclusive. Either you support individual rights or you support collective rights. You can't support collective rights in any way, or on any issue, and claim to also support individual rights because, in all cases, collective rights require the sacrifice of individual rights. You likely still disagree with that so I ask that you give a specific examples of issues where you support each.

    Since you think the definition is slanted, I challenge you to find a more nuetral source which offers a definition of Collectivism that you find acceptable. Chances are, you will have to go to a website espousing a collectivist philosophy (fascism, socialism, communism) before you can find a definition that doesn't sound "slanted" to you... You won't like the dictionary's definition at all.

    Another thing, you complained that I've oversimplified the concepts into being black and white when you don't think they are... then you offered an oversimplified example, namely Taxation. Its not paying taxes that are an issue, its what that tax money goes to pay for that is at issue.

    Bottom line, Collectivism requires force and Individualism requires freedom of choice. You are either free to choose whether or not to help a complete stranger (namely charity) or you are forced (most often by government) to help a complete stranger (welfare).
     
  13. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it's simply an Elementary School "trick"; learning to spell, properly.​
     
  14. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman Well-Known Member

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    Ah, yes....sacrifice....another o' those Judeo/Christian/slave-to-martyrdom free-tickets-to-Heaven.

    :rolleyes:

    ****

    I prefer common-sense:

    A house divided against itself cannot stand.” - Abraham Lincoln

    ****

    ....And, a lil' gem for always:

    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.” - Abraham Lincoln
     
  15. Richard Savage

    Richard Savage Well-Known Member

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    All rights, whether individual or collective, exist only by law.
     
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