Bailout Observations

[Andy]

Greco,
Is political fighting more important to you than saving our own arses? Seriously. This is how you come across. Don't you think that we should all be considering HOW we can contribute to repairing our economy instead of finger pointing?

Well duh, of course. However, you're coming across as a defender of obstuctists. There were Republican senators that voted FOR the Wall Street bailout with no accountablility, no pay reductions, no CEO bonus reductions, etc., then voted against the automotive bailout because factory workers wouldn't have their wages reduced. If there is "political fighting", it's coming from the Republicans.

LOL! You just spent this entire section, foolishly blaming republicans for everything, and then said if there's political fighting, it's the republicans. That's idiocy.

Hogwash. Your claim is wrong and false.

Hogwash. Your claim is wrong and false.

He and other Republicans said wages and benefits for employees of Detroit's Big Three should be renegotiated to bring them in line with those paid by Japanese carmakers Toyota, Honda and Nissan in the United States.

You don't state who "he" is. But it's a stupid proposition to only expect the factory workers to take a pay hit. Apparently "he" doesn't think the top execuctives should have a pay cut, or no bonuses.

Do you even know how much the CEOs are paid? Or how much the CEOs of other auto makers are paid?

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

No they don't say that all. That's your interpretation. GM uses the $69 hourly wage, but their number is falsely inflated to include the pensions of RETIRED, not current factory works.

Falsely inflated lol! Um... if it costs that much per hour of labor, to pay legacy costs, then it isn't a false inflation... is it? You failed basic logic, didn't you?

Republicans also bitterly opposed tougher environmental rules carmakers would have to meet as part of the House-passed version of the rescue package and the Senate dropped them from its package.

Well of course they are. Why try to make a vehicle more fuel efficient, less poluting, when campaign contritutors pay you think otherwise?

Or maybe the voters, vote for them, specifically because they think otherwise. The crappy car years of the late 70s and 80s are exactly because of crap legislation. We don't need more of that.

Some Senate Democrats joined Republicans in turning against the House-passed bill - despite increasingly urgent expressions of support from the White House and President-elect Barack Obama for quick action to spare the economy the added pain of a potential automaker collapse"

The above is from CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4661859.shtml

Whether it's $73 (last year) or $69 (current) it doesn't really matter because it's too D@MN MUCH to compete!

It's also a false and intentionally misleading claim that the the current hourly wage is even close to what Republicans are claiming.

Republicans claim it is? Everyone who knows anything about it, claims that it is. The only people who say it isn't, are know-nothings on internet forums who couldn't run a lemonade stand if their life depended on it.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It would be interesting to see how the wages (all inclusive payment packages) for the top three and the Japanese executives compare. I know in Europe that there are some laws restricting the wages of the top people in relation to the lowest paid people in the company.

 

[Unite Our Nation]

"No they don't say that all. That's your interpretation. GM uses the $69 hourly wage, but their number is falsely inflated to include the pensions of RETIRED, not current factory works."



These numbers were reports on EVERY LARGE NEWS AGENCY. I didn't "interprete anything. Where EXACTLY do you think the $$$ comes from to pay those retired workers? In a business sweetkins you must include all expenses.

On your home personal budget, what expenses can you leave out and still balance your monthly/yearly budget??

 

[Unite Our Nation]

It would be interesting to see how the wages (all inclusive payment packages) for the top three and the Japanese executives compare. I know in Europe that there are some laws restricting the wages of the top people in relation to the lowest paid people in the company.

Yeah, let's resort to using the losest denomenator for our model. Sure. Go read some history. Socialism has been shown to be a bust, over and over and over again.

 

[Greco]

It's an intentional distortion of the truth to combine two non-related expenses into one category and represent that as a single expense. Of course those that think playing fast and loose with the truth is an attribute will defend the practice. It's the same lemmings that have spend eight years excusing away, rationalizing, justifying, and denying all the Bush blunders and factual misprepresentations.

Perhaps you should revisit some of the news archives and see what America thought of that practice. I'd suggest using November 5, 2008 as a starting point sweekins.

 

[BigRob]

It's an intentional distortion of the truth to combine two non-related expenses into one category and represent that as a single expense. Of course those that think playing fast and loose with the truth is an attribute will defend the practice. It's the same lemmings that have spend eight years excusing away, rationalizing, justifying, and denying all the Bush blunders and factual misprepresentations.

Perhaps you should revisit some of the news archives and see what America thought of that practice. I'd suggest using November 5, 2008 as a starting point sweekins.

It is pretty simply really. Either GM has to pay the expenses or they don't. If they do, then they matter. If they don't, they they are irrelevant.

 

[Greco]

What is irrelevant are the feeble attempt to justify an intentional misrepresentation of the facts and truth. Under the Republican logic, throw the standard accounting procedures out the window. Of course they have other expenses, did you just figure that out? Using your twisted logic they could add the cost of advertising, raw materials, corporate jets, CEO bonuses, etc., creating an hourly rate of $17,212 or whatever the total would equal. It would still be an intentional distortion.

 

[BigRob]

What is irrelevant are the feeble attempt to justify an intentional misrepresentation of the facts and truth. Under the Republican logic, throw the standard accounting procedures out the window. Of course they have other expenses, did you just figure that out? Using your twisted logic they could add the cost of advertising, raw materials, corporate jets, CEO bonuses, etc., creating an hourly rate of $17,212 or whatever the total would equal. It would still be an intentional distortion.

Same problem, they either have to pay it or not. Which is it? If they don't then it doesn't matter. If they do, then it does.

Further, if GM pays similar wages to Toyota workers etc, why is it that no one here wants to buy their cars? Maybe they do pay similar wages, but until they make a car someone here wants, that is meaningless.

Further, once the government takes over GM and imposes all kinds of new standards on cars, we will be left with a company that continues to make cars no one wants, but is funded by taxpayers. That way if someone does want to buy their car, they paid for it twice. Once by keeping the company alive, and twice by buying the actual car.


So, GM is bankrupt, we can all agree. So either they pay their employees to much to sustain themselves, or they make cars no one here wants... which is it. Either way, they are a disaster.

 

[Greco]

They're loaded with vehicles that apparently America doesn't want. However, it's still an intentional misrepresentation to add other expenses into a non-related category and claim it's a single cost.

 

[BigRob]

They're loaded with vehicles that apparently America doesn't want. However, it's still an intentional misrepresentation to add other expenses into a non-related category and claim it's a single cost.

Well they are doing something wrong when Honda and Toyota can make it in the US just fine, and they are spiraling into bankruptcy.

 

[Greco]

Just yesterday Toyota was in the news. They're not doing "just fine".

 

[Andy]

It would be interesting to see how the wages (all inclusive payment packages) for the top three and the Japanese executives compare. I know in Europe that there are some laws restricting the wages of the top people in relation to the lowest paid people in the company.

Yeah, and their economy sucks worse than ours. Well, ok, most of the European countries have horrible economies.

That said, I couldn't find anything on Japanese CEOs pay rates. It's not listed Forbes, nor Wiki, nor any of the translated Japanese pages I looked at.

If you find anything, let me know. I'm curious too.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

A most piquant critique of European economies.

The pain being felt in Europe was caused in the States.

And I would be interested to see evidence supporting the assertion that there are laws restricting wages in Europe.

 

[Andy]

Just yesterday Toyota was in the news. They're not doing "just fine".

Let us define what "just fine" is. Is the company producing profitable cars that are selling? Yes.

Are they selling as many cars as they had planned and forcasted? No.

Are they still in the black and making money? Yes.

Are they cutting back production in response to a down turn in the auto market? Sure.

The company is doing just fine. Yes they are reducing production to match the reduced demand, but that in no way reflect an approaching bankruptcy that GM and Chyrsler are in.

That said, I find your statement, to be humorous compared to the other liberals who have been going off about how the real problem with the big three is that they are not producing cars people want, and that Toyota is the example to follow.

If your claim is accurate, please contact Top Gun and Shaman to inform them to shut up.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Oh come on.

Everyone knows American cars are rubbish.

People aspire to have Ferraris and Porsches and Rolls Royces and Mercedes and BMWs and Lexus and Lamborghins and Maseratis and Range Rovers and Jaguars.

Not gas guzzling armchairs on wheels.

That is why American car companies do so badly outside of the US and why the US imports so many cars.

Maybe if they didn't make such lousy cars they might not be in quite such a bad mess.