California Proposition 8

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Oh my, such a simple question on its surface and yet so complex when peeling back the layers. I can only briefly tell you that both young women are extremely confused and screwed up in their heads about which way to go. One of their mothers is a devout fundamentalist christian, lesbian who ran a "pleasure shop" in a nearby town selling dildos and sex toys. Her dyke lover was more of a man than most men I know. Which makes me wonder why the lipstick lesbian/christian found her attractive if she was supposed to be more attracted to women... My theory is that the one twin emulated the mannish dyke and the other the lipstick one. And since the lipstick dyke mother was obviously attracted more to a man (ish woman) then that twin adopted heterosexuality...

"Confused" is a word I would use to describe each member of that quartet. And none of them moreso than I am about the situation.

Which brings me back to my point of if some type of relationship isn't fully understood, and may have its roots in dysfunction (in their case: hyper-sexual), AND we know that primates (humans) learn and model their societies by example and copying "aping" behavior of the adults in their group, then what are we doing holding up that behavior as "normal". True, no one has a monopoly on the word "normal". What normal really means is "what today's society has, by majority, determined to be acceptable". And I'm a big fan of pushing the envelope, don't get me wrong. It's just that sexuality is one of the most potent elements of human behavior and it underlies nearlly the whole fabric of adult human interaction, excepting perhaps the elderly, and so we must look very carefully at how we model sexuality because it can invade every nook and cranny of society.

I'm not in favor, BTW, of descriminating against gays and sexual deviants of all types as long as their behavior doesn't include trying to predate youngsters or "sway" them to their slant on sexuality. Why did I choose the word "deviants" to describe anything other than sex between men and women? Because sex evolved millions and millions of years ago to beget children via a mechanism that relies on male and female DNA allowing for diversity and the ability to evolve and adapt faster than asexual reproduction. So for mammals, hetero is normal sexual behavior and anything else is not. Using the sexual reproductive organs for anything else and trying to call it "normal" would be like trying to walk on your hands and write with your feet. Sure, we could learn to accept people who did that habitually, by choice at the onset, but we couldn't call it normal.

So, did Californians make a mistake upholding what they consider to be a "normal" marriage arrangement to model before impressionable youth? I say they did not. Marriage and the implied "sex for begetting children" should be only an arrangement between two beings where at least in theory that begetting is possible. I know some couples are sterile etc. etc. etc. The important thing is that it conform with the male/female partnership as a modeling example so other fertile young people model themselves along those lines.

You seem to make an awful lot of sweeping assumptions based on nothing but anecdotal information drawn from a miniscule personal sample. Rev. Fred Phelps and his family are all heterosexual Christians who are some of the most disfunctional and hateful people on Earth.

It's sad for me to listen to people with no real scientific evidence to support their "common wisdom" ideas touting discrimination and spreading disinformation. The failings of the American school system exacerbated by a climate of religious repression has turned out generations of well-meaning bigots who lash out in fear of homosexual and transsexual chimeras.
 
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The religious right seem very adept at presenting very weak evidence as factual support of their divisive views

There is no real 'religious right'. Some of the people opposed to gay marriage are anti-business, pro-government, and many vote democrat. That's just the invention of imaginative leftist with made up boogie mans to hate.

That said, the view against gay marriage is about how marriage is a creation of g-d, not man. I personally couldn't care less if my views are divisive. Let people be offended. I'm not one to care what you or any other thinks of me. That's your problem, not mine.
 
Oh my, such a simple question on its surface and yet so complex when peeling back the layers. I can only briefly tell you that both young women are extremely confused and screwed up in their heads about which way to go.

That's pretty much what being a teenager is like these days, regardless of parental situation. I was pretty confused myself as a teenager, and understand, for me "being a teenager" only ended about a year ago - I remember the whole thing quite well. And both of my parents are heterosexual.

One of their mothers is a devout fundamentalist christian, lesbian who ran a "pleasure shop" in a nearby town selling dildos and sex toys.

Now there's something you don't see every day.

Her dyke lover was more of a man than most men I know. Which makes me wonder why the lipstick lesbian/christian found her attractive if she was supposed to be more attracted to women...

The term "sexual preference" has a different meaning for each of us.

My theory is that the one twin emulated the mannish dyke and the other the lipstick one. And since the lipstick dyke mother was obviously attracted more to a man (ish woman) then that twin adopted heterosexuality...

It's possible. Exactly what childhood factors lead to the development of homosexuality as a disposition are presently unknown; but bear in mind, homosexuals have heterosexuals for parents an overwhelming percentage of the time, so emulation of parents isn't a necessary factor in the development of homosexuality.

"Confused" is a word I would use to describe each member of that quartet. And none of them moreso than I am about the situation.

Anyone who thinks he or she isn't confused about anything is obviously a lot more confused than he or she knows. ;)

Which brings me back to my point of if some type of relationship isn't fully understood, and may have its roots in dysfunction (in their case: hyper-sexual), AND we know that primates (humans) learn and model their societies by example and copying "aping" behavior of the adults in their group, then what are we doing holding up that behavior as "normal". True, no one has a monopoly on the word "normal". What normal really means is "what today's society has, by majority, determined to be acceptable". And I'm a big fan of pushing the envelope, don't get me wrong. It's just that sexuality is one of the most potent elements of human behavior and it underlies nearlly the whole fabric of adult human interaction, excepting perhaps the elderly, and so we must look very carefully at how we model sexuality because it can invade every nook and cranny of society.

Homosexuality isn't necessarily hyper-sexual in nature. Like I said above, "sexual preference" has a different meaning for everyone. "Gender preference" would probably be a better term for dispositional homosexuality, since the disposition is to be attracted, sexually and/or romantically, to the opposite sex, not simply sexually.

Are there hypersexual homosexuals? Certainly. Are all homosexuals hypersexual? No. Most of the homosexuals I know are no more sexually active than most of the heterosexuals I know - the one difference I've noticed is that the homosexuals I know are more expressive about their sexual activities (ie, they're more willing to discuss their sex lives in casual conversation). I'd say that's probably an expression of newly-acquired expressive social freedom - where once it would have been unthinkable for gay people to talk about their sexual exploits in conversation with heterosexuals, it's more generally accepted now (or at least it is where I'm from). As a result, they're taking advantage of that new freedom.

I'm not in favor, BTW, of descriminating against gays and sexual deviants of all types as long as their behavior doesn't include trying to predate youngsters or "sway" them to their slant on sexuality. Why did I choose the word "deviants" to describe anything other than sex between men and women? Because sex evolved millions and millions of years ago to beget children via a mechanism that relies on male and female DNA allowing for diversity and the ability to evolve and adapt faster than asexual reproduction. So for mammals, hetero is normal sexual behavior and anything else is not. Using the sexual reproductive organs for anything else and trying to call it "normal" would be like trying to walk on your hands and write with your feet. Sure, we could learn to accept people who did that habitually, by choice at the onset, but we couldn't call it normal.

Is it "normal" to eat cotton candy at a carnival? Remember, "eating" developed biologically as a means of gaining sustenance, and "cotton candy" has zero nutritional value. And whereas eating is necessary both for individual survival and as a necessary corollary for propagation of the species, while sexuality is only necessary for the latter, this issue of letting people know it's okay to eat cotton candy (or anything else that isn't nutritional) is far more serious than allowing homosexuals to marry.

You have to be careful with "logic." Sometimes its great; sometimes it'll knock you on your ass. Remember, one of the great aspects of the human race is that we've evolved beyond simple biological function - the ability to think, reason, and emote have changed the whole score for us. Sexuality in particular has evolved significantly - its not just about reproduction anymore. Hell, for most of the couples I know, it's specifically not about reproduction. If we were simple biological creatures, that mindset would be a cataclysmic setback - but instead, we've adapted, creating contraceptive pills and condoms. Not to mention abortion. Birth control keeps getting more effective, and someday it'll be one hundred percent - or as close as doesn't make a difference for the greater majority of people who use it. And as for acceptance of birth control as normal, you can see the level of acceptance as a generational thing - older folks generally find it less appealing, the middle aged generation probably wish it had been more prevalent when they were younger but are too embarrassed to admit it, and my generation sees it as normal. Homosexuality could be the same way some day.

So, did Californians make a mistake upholding what they consider to be a "normal" marriage arrangement to model before impressionable youth? I say they did not. Marriage and the implied "sex for begetting children" should be only an arrangement between two beings where at least in theory that begetting is possible. I know some couples are sterile etc. etc. etc. The important thing is that it conform with the male/female partnership as a modeling example so other fertile young people model themselves along those lines.

Personally, I don't think the future of marital equality lies in legalizing gay marriage; I believe it lies in deregulating marriage entirely and allowing it to be what it really is: a social institution.

Why is it such a necessity that we keep encouraging "fertile young people" to have kids? We're still a hair above the Replacement Rate when it comes to the USA's TFR (total fertility rate). As a result, our population increases. As a First-World industrially-developed nation, we don't really need to keep swelling our population. In fact, we could probably do with it dropping a bit. Rather than taking the Thomas Malthus approach to "decreasing the surplus population," we could just stop encouraging "fertile young people" to be heterosexual and let them make up their own minds on a level playing field. Maybe that way, rather than making more babies, which as a society we don't need, we'd have more couples in stable relationships who, if they want to have kids, must necessarily adopt, decreasing the number of children in foster care - which is good for the kids, since it is statistically proven that kids in foster care fare worse in society than kids who get adopted, and is good for the state, which then has to expend less money caring for them every year.
 
There is no real 'religious right'. Some of the people opposed to gay marriage are anti-business, pro-government, and many vote democrat. That's just the invention of imaginative leftist with made up boogie mans to hate.

That said, the view against gay marriage is about how marriage is a creation of g-d, not man. I personally couldn't care less if my views are divisive. Let people be offended. I'm not one to care what you or any other thinks of me. That's your problem, not mine.

Funny though how the very same God sanctioned and blessed gay marriages for the first 1400 years of the Christian era.
 
My argument still stands that unless we clearly understand whether or not sexuality can be impressed on youth via "social norms", then we shouldn't mess with the definition of "marriage" by introducing partnerships other than what nature in fact did intend "sexuality between men and women", in that sexuality is foremost a function for begetting children and lesser a quality of entertainment for "getting off".
 
My argument still stands that unless we clearly understand whether or not sexuality can be impressed on youth via "social norms", then we shouldn't mess with the definition of "marriage" by introducing partnerships other than what nature in fact did intend "sexuality between men and women", in that sexuality is foremost a function for begetting children and lesser a quality of entertainment for "getting off".

I'm always uncomfortable when someone presumes to speak for God or Nature because to the best of my knowledge no one has exclusive access to either of those sources, so what makes your opinion better than anyone else's?

People have a very long history of speaking for God and Nature and they have been wrong over and over and over, but somehow that never sinks in to the new self-proclaimed prophets. How come no one is calling for men to have multiple wives like in the Bible? And concubines? And slaves? And women captured as spoils of war? These are all Scriptural, are you saying that the Bible examples aren't safe for our children?
 
Not true. G-d has remained unchanged. Only man claiming to follow g-d, has changed.

So who was right? The people in the years right after Jesus' death or the people with the oft-translated, third-hand Bibles nearly 2000 years later?
 
I'm always uncomfortable when someone presumes to speak for God or Nature because to the best of my knowledge no one has exclusive access to either of those sources, so what makes your opinion better than anyone else's?~mare

I don't presume to speak for God..per se...lol...

I don't presume to speak for science either. I just went for a major in biology is all... Sexual reproduction came about to accelerate evolution. It was one of the biggest milestones in the progress of life on earth in eons.

I think the gay (and much of the hetero) phenomenon is best described as a confusion of sex as being love instead of as a compliment to love of the opposite gender. I for one am so ultra sick of being blasted with sexuality everywhere I look. It's on the ads, the movies the sitcoms the documentaries...it's on the street corner, in the coffee houses, in the clubs. No wonder there are so many deviants around. It's like a friggin smorgasborg out there and everyone acts like they've been starving to death for centuries.

I think humans in general are highly compulsive beings. We tend to go overboard on just about any area that involves the release of endorphines. It's like our crack. For some people it's sex, for others it's food, others morphine, others meth, others alcohol, others overexertion. I really feel that homosexuality, by and large with some minor exceptions, is part of that lineup that continuum of "what can I do that is outside the bounds of moderation.

I have a friend who has a different slant on homosexuality that might explain why some homosexuals feel drawn to the same gender since their earliest memories. She thinks that we are reincarnated and that some of us retain strong subconcious memories of drives of a previous lifetime (I'm just telling you what she thinks now..). She says that homosexuals used to be the other gender and had a very strong sexual fixation so that in this life they seek out that gender they were habitually used to in the former one. She contends that this is a mistake, that each life is given to us to force us to work through old issues that we got hung up on. Her point is that the matrix of "normality" as close as we can maintain it in a sober fashion, is to keep the definitions of some things intact....like marriage...between opposite genders.

So that being born "female" or "male" will produce reliable lessons for each of us to learn. If you start stretching the definitions of male and female, then their value as tools to learn from begin to get watered down.

It's an interesting slant. I've heard quite a few... and again, no one really seems to have the corner on what the phenomenon of feeling compelled to seek orgasm with the same gender has its roots in? So until we are positive (see, I'm not presuming to speak for anything but shakey ambiguity) about the nature and origin of homosexuality, since it is not a drive of the very basic foundation of nature today, which is evolution, which depends on reproduciton to continue rolling along, which depends on members of the opposite sex copulating to accomplish (of this I will presume to speak for), we should not be "normalizing" homosexual marriage as just another bastardization of real love.

Real love has nothing whatsoever to do with acheiving orgasm. Not one shred of a little bit. And, what may blow people's minds even further: real love can exist very deeply and profoundly between two people and they can never have sex together in their entire lives. I think of friends I have who I care very deeply about, male and female. And yet I cannot imagine feeling like I would need to copulate with them to solidify the bond even more than it already is. Why dump mud into a pure spring?

Sex is like mud. It's dirty, smelly and fun to roll around in. But it belongs outside the house of love. And that is MHO.
 
origin of homosexuality, since it is not a drive of the very basic foundation of nature today, which is evolution, which depends on reproduciton to continue rolling along, which depends on members of the opposite sex copulating to accomplish (of this I will presume to speak for), we should not be "normalizing" homosexual marriage as just another bastardization of real love.
Well, I was with you right up to the point where you started telling us what homosexuality is not, "...not a drive of the very basic foundation of nature today...", when in fact you do not know this, it's just an assumption. The very fact that homosexuality is found so widely in nature and all through history and in every human culture tells us that we don't know enough about it to say that it is "unnatural" (which is what you are saying in essence).

To say that a sexual orientation you do not feel is a "bastardation of real love," is another unwarranted value judgment you are not in a position to make. If you majored in biology then you will know that you cannot prove either one of your assertions with scientific certainty and that many biologists disagree with you.

I don't have any argument with reincarnation, is it any more of a miracle to born twice than once? Another instance of no proof either way.
 
It was never accepted.

Ya'll need to read more history. THE MARRIAGE OF LIKENESS: Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe by John Boswell, the records still exist as do the written ceremonies.

Christians today are victims of some pretty bad translation errors.
 
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Ya'll need to read more history. THE MARRIAGE OF LIKENESS: Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe by John Boswell, the records still exist as do the written ceremonies.

Christians today are victims of some pretty bad translation errors.

No doubt that is true. But that is not a problem of the Bible being wrong, or changing. That's a willful choice to disregard the plane and simple meaning stated.

Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Man unite wife. Seems pretty clear to me.

Matthew 19:3-4
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,"? and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"?

Jesus himself is affirming the obvious prior biblical statement. Male and female, not male and male, or female and female. Man unite wife, not man unite husband, or women unite wife. Not hard stuff.

Ephesians 5 also clearly says over and over, husbands love your wives. It also says that young women should have their own husbands in another section.

So, you tell me which bible it is where this is translated so hard that one can not figure out the meaning? I'll even give you some help.

http://bible.cc/genesis/2-24.htm

That link has 12 translations of the same verse. You tell me which one you need help with, and I'll get a dictionary.
 
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