Can We Agree On These Few Things?

I think your train of thought on all of the issues you've raised here are very common sense my friend.:)

Well a few things I have learned about politics and politicians...
1. There is usually a logical, common sense response to any issue or program. Moving away from this is usually the case of an individual or small group of any given body with a specific agenda be it there own personal, or of an influencial lobby. Usually the people they represent come in third at best, often times fourth in the priority of how they vote.
2. Very few decisions are actually made when the vote comes. This is usually already decided and whichever speech might be made, or which ever. They have thier mind made up and little will work to change it regardless of what is said.
3. Politicians over complicate things.

So lets look at the original issues I brought forth. I mentioned them because they are all real issues and there are still plenty of people including elected officials who cant seem to grasp simple concepts.

The Earth is billions of years old, and not 6,000?
There is tons of physical evidence to support this. But again, there are people who refuse to believe it. Why I am not sure, but either you are up with the times, or the times leave you behind.

Whether the decision to terminate a pregnancy should be left up the person carrying the baby and the male counterpart?
some think of it as murder, others last resort birth control. The fact of the matter is that, according to the Supreme Court legal abortion is the law of the land. This makes sense regardless. People are always going to go to great lengths to terminate unwanted pregnancy. I dont like the idea. But I will not step in the way of what they decide is best for them and thier bodies. I believe there are other alternatives and dont like it being an actual birth control method, but those who do, I will let them deal with thier own demons they create after doing so.

Some people are born as homosexuals and some choose homosexuality, but some accomodation needs to be made to those who choose to live in long term relationships as homosexual couples?
Civil unions, as I described above, as a long term relationship between two consenting adults with the same rights, priveledges, and responsibilities as marriage. Because it may be between two people of the same gender does not effect the commitment two other people have made to themselves. It doesnt detract from it a bit
It is time for the rise of a viable third party in American politics?
In contradiction to what I just pointed out, a third or extra parties would complicate politics. But I hate the idea that the one thing the two main parties can agree on is to suppress any uprising third party. They do this through legislation on primaries and who can be on the ballot etc.
The war on drugs has been a huge policy failure?
There has been a huge amount of treasure expended on enforcement and "corrections" of such problem, and the problem isnt even close to going away. We are making criminals of otherwise law abiding citizens with a health issue. Now this isnt to say that it is alright to rob a store to get money for one's next fix. That is armed robbery and should be prosecuted as such. Same goes with driving under the influence, and any other criminal offenses commited while on drugs or in pursuit of such. But lets draw some comparison to alcohol prohibiton of the 20s that was a total and complete failure. It was instituted by lobbying from a special interest group, being the Temperance League or whatever they called themselves. It did nothing but raise crime surrounding alcohol consumption, with gangs killing each other and innocents in an effort to capitalize from the amount of money to be made through the black market. Repealing the 19th or whichever amendment it was very effective in eliminating the structure and power derived from the structure in organized crime. If you legalize something, lets take cocaine for instance, I have never touched the stuff, and never will, even if it was legal. Because something is illegal or not, makes little difference if someone chooses to partake in that substance. So, again, I dont think it wise to ruin people's lives through criminal charges surrounding possession in thier own homes when the overall policy is flawed. It is often special interest, trying to eliminate or minimize another certain group who are stereotyped to use one substance or another. For instance our current drug policy instituted during the Nixon era, was an effort to marginalize the hippies because they were outspoken about the direction America was going in.
The other common practice politicians do, is to group together issues, when one is often similar but independant of each other. If we legalize marijuana, it doesnt mean we need to legalize heroin. Nor does it mean that everyone who does marijuana will go down the slippery slope to harder drugs.
 
Werbung:
Bunz, though I don't necessarily agree with all of your positions, you do take a common sense approach (with the exception of abortion) and I can respect that.
 
Same sex marriages have not existed in any culture. While there might have been acceptable arrangements, they were never called marriages and you have admitted as much yourself in other posts.

What ever they were called - they were treated as recognized bonds or commitments - to all intents or purposes something like a marriage that is recognized and conferred certain benefits.
 
Popeye, this goes along the same argument about drug use. It is a matter of people doing it regardless of its legal status. So if we cant stop them, society needs to see the writing on the wall and make it as safe as necessary. I dont think we need public funding to pay for abortion. But again, the decision to bring a child into the world needs to be left to those who created it. Id certainly agree to only abortions in the first trimester, but it makes little sense to me to go back to the days in this country of overcrowded orphanages with thousands of children waiting for an adoption that will never come and are subjected to government control and expenditure. The current foster care system we have right now is bad enough.
 
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, since I know that pale rider is going to address this and I figure it'd piss him off if I did it first.

Popeye, this goes along the same argument about drug use. It is a matter of people doing it regardless of its legal status. So if we cant stop them, society needs to see the writing on the wall and make it as safe as necessary.

Laws haven't "stopped" any of the behavior they're meant to stop; they only deter, and at certain levels. If you want to make the claim that anti-abortion laws don't deter abortion as much as, say, anti-murder laws deter murder, you'll have to back it up with some research. Otherwise, the idea that anti-abortion laws wouldn't stop abortion isn't anything more than a tag for the pro-choice camp.

I dont think we need public funding to pay for abortion.

When did that come up? First I've ever heard of it.

But again, the decision to bring a child into the world needs to be left to those who created it.

No one held a gun to their heads and forced them to screw.

Remember, biologically speaking pregnancy isn't a side effect of sex, it's the intended result - which means that if you're having sex, for whatever reasons, there's a strong chance she's going to get pregnant. Contraceptives are far from perfect and I've personally noticed that many couples tend to become lax in their application over time.

With all that in mind, the decision to bring a child into the world is, irregardless of anti-abortion laws, still with the (potential) parents.

Id certainly agree to only abortions in the first trimester,

Is the developing unborn child somehow less human in the first trimester?

Consider your answer carefully and remember that there are many born human beings who, as a result of disease, defect, or accident are in a very similar situation to that of the unborn fetus: underdeveloped or near non-existent brain functions, vital organs that require constant outside supplementation, wholescale dependency on outside sources for the appropriation of food...are people who have been born yet are still in these predicaments somehow less human? Would it be okay simply to kill them?

but it makes little sense to me to go back to the days in this country of overcrowded orphanages with thousands of children waiting for an adoption that will never come and are subjected to government control and expenditure. The current foster care system we have right now is bad enough.

There is overcrowding in many US cities. Perhaps we should just give the residents weapons and tell them that murder is no longer a crime. Overcrowding wouldn't be a problem after a while.

There are many ways to fix a problem. Better sexual education and more research into contraception (I recall discussing an "anti-ovulation" contraceptive with pale rider at some point that, while not a reality now, would pretty much make this whole fiasco go away) would both be very helpful in negating the importance of abortion in our modern world.

Personally, I think that working towards making abortion unnecessary would be a much more fruitful usage of our time than sitting around arguing about it uselessly when the two sides will never agree on whether or not abortion is or ought to be permissible.
 
VYO, You are right the sides will never come together. The circumstances I spoke about, concern actual measures that have been attempted to curb abortion either on the federal level or in some states. Such as late term or third trimester abortions. Not making medicare or other public health funds available for it etc. Comparing overcrowded cities to orphanages isnt even close to a fair argumen and I think you know that.
You see I have a much more objective and consistent view on life and death. I dont want people to have children they are not interested in caring for, when they then become wards of thier respective state and a burden on society. While I agree a fetus is a living thing, it is not yet a human being until it is able to live outside of the mother's body and able to undetake the basic functions of life hold, mainly breathing and an operating respritory system and functioning brain. A fetus at 12 weeks or less it is virtually impossible without every body function being operated by machines to live. Which I dont consider living. Again, I dont like the idea of it. But my views are objective putting aside emotion or religious beliefs that are most often dragged into this. I believe the father should have some say in the situation on the decision to terminate a pregnancy. But ultimately it boils down to this. People are going to have sex for recreation, it is based on biology and to assume humans are only going to have sex for pro-creation purposes, well they arent getting laid enough. Pregnancy is a by product of that. If pregnancy should occur, and if for whatever reason, the pregnant person wants to pay for it themselves, and before the living thing in them is able to live outside of its body as more than a parasite(I do mean parasite in the nicest possible way, I just lack a better term right now) I dont have a problem with them doing that. I dont think anyone should stand in thier way of doing it. It is up to the woman and man if around to decide, not the government.
 
Here's an interesting article I picked up off Yahoo. Browse at your leisure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071012/hl_nm/women_dc

I think this highlights my point pretty effectively. Better and more prevalent contraception equals fewer abortions. Apparently, legalizing abortion also causes the number of abortions performed to decrease. There's some food for thought.
 
I will certainly agree that less abortion is a good thing. I think it proves my point that having access to proper medical care if one makes that choice is critical. Over half a million deaths in Sub-Saharan Africa in a single year is eye-opening.
 
VYO, You are right the sides will never come together. The circumstances I spoke about, concern actual measures that have been attempted to curb abortion either on the federal level or in some states. Such as late term or third trimester abortions. Not making medicare or other public health funds available for it etc.

These measures just make it harder for people to get abortions. They do not address the reason people get abortions and so aren't very helpful in the long run.

Comparing overcrowded cities to orphanages isnt even close to a fair argumen and I think you know that.

The comparison served its purpose.

You see I have a much more objective and consistent view on life and death.

Uh, more objective than who?

I dont want people to have children they are not interested in caring for, when they then become wards of thier respective state and a burden on society.

Neither do I. Neither does anyone in the pro-life camp, for that matter.

While I agree a fetus is a living thing, it is not yet a human being until it is able to live outside of the mother's body and able to undetake the basic functions of life hold, mainly breathing and an operating respritory system and functioning brain.

So the brain-damaged are less human than us "normal" people? How about people with asthma or other breathing disorders? And if they are, in your view, just as human as the rest of us, why is that the conditions for humanity you impose on newborns any different than the conditions you impose on people who've been around a while longer?

A fetus at 12 weeks or less it is virtually impossible without every body function being operated by machines to live. Which I dont consider living. Again, I dont like the idea of it.

I don't consider it living either, but I do consider it being alive. I'm bordering on cliche with that statement but I think it gets the point across.

I believe the father should have some say in the situation on the decision to terminate a pregnancy.

If I was fully able to get behind abortion rights I'd probably agree with you on this.

But ultimately it boils down to this. People are going to have sex for recreation, it is based on biology

No. Sex drive is our biology's way of telling us to reproduce. It is not a biological drive towards recreational activity, it is a biological drive towards the propagation of the species necessary for the species' survival.

and to assume humans are only going to have sex for pro-creation purposes, well they arent getting laid enough.

Sadly I'd have to agree with you here. :(

Pregnancy is a by product of that. If pregnancy should occur, and if for whatever reason, the pregnant person wants to pay for it themselves, and before the living thing in them is able to live outside of its body as more than a parasite(I do mean parasite in the nicest possible way, I just lack a better term right now) I dont have a problem with them doing that. I dont think anyone should stand in thier way of doing it. It is up to the woman and man if around to decide, not the government.

There's one thing I'm curious about. Why bother saying that you mean "parasite" in the "nicest possible way"? Especially in light of the fact that you're discussing the willful termination of that "parasite's" existence.

I can just see you talking to a fetus. "You're a parasite. I don't mean to offend you. But it's okay for people to kill you."

I'll let palerider address the points you've posted that have to do with how human a fetus is; he's the one who knows all that stuff. The only reason I argue in abortion threads at all is to show how useless it is to argue in abortion threads. Anyone who is thinking things through clearly and logically can see that abortion presents an insoluble moral dilemma.

In a side note, I'd very much like to introduce you to your enter key. He is your friend, and more to the point he is the friend of those of us who don't want to get headaches when we read your posts. Just a somewhat sarcastic suggestion that you use it a bit more often (I assure you, this was meant in the nicest possible way :p ).
 
Let me preface this by stating that, abortion is now legal in the US. The Supreme Court ruled it that way. If the court were to change thier ruling, my feelings wouldnt be hurt. I am not a crusader for one side or the other. Just simply someone who looks at the writing on the wall, and says that if someone wants an abortion, they will do it regardless. It is much more wise to allow conditions under which that can be met.
Uh, more objective than who?
I look at it more objectively than the folks who let emotion or religion into thier arguments on the issue, or any issue for that matter. The two main arguments I hear in the pro-life camp are...its against god, or "oh my, how could someone do that" Well I dont judge those who choose what they want to do. I dont think it my place to interfere with it. This is a consistent stance I take on many issues. I let people decide for themselves.
So the brain-damaged are less human than us "normal" people? How about people with asthma or other breathing disorders? And if they are, in your view, just as human as the rest of us, why is that the conditions for humanity you impose on newborns any different than the conditions you impose on people who've been around a while longer?
No no, dont get me wrong. I work with disabled people. But they are among the vast majority of those whose parents decided to continue thier pregnancy. I dont impose my beliefs on newborns. As they are born. I impose my thoughts on something that has not developed enough to that point to live outside of another body.
There's one thing I'm curious about. Why bother saying that you mean "parasite" in the "nicest possible way"? Especially in light of the fact that you're discussing the willful termination of that "parasite's" existence.
Well I used parasite, because as I said I didnt have a more appropriate term for it. I am sure there is some scientific or medical term. But what I meant by it was, a living organism that needs a host organism to live in for its further survival.
In a side note, I'd very much like to introduce you to your enter key.
Point taken, I often get on a rant and forget to use it. Ill do my best in the future. My feelings arent hurt.

Also VYO, I see that post was 1,500 for you. I am not sure if I should say congrats or get a life! :)
 
I am not a crusader for one side or the other.

Neither am I. This is because I find both sides intolerable. It's an interesting dilemma.

I look at it more objectively than the folks who let emotion or religion into thier arguments on the issue, or any issue for that matter. The two main arguments I hear in the pro-life camp are...its against god, or "oh my, how could someone do that" Well I dont judge those who choose what they want to do. I dont think it my place to interfere with it. This is a consistent stance I take on many issues. I let people decide for themselves.

In the time I've been here I've seen a few of those emotional arguments. I've also seen a lot of logical arguments. If you're curious about them, here are a few links.

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=620
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1441
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1629

There's a HUGE amount of stuff there, obviously. The debates between palerider and Coyote are, in my opinion, the best.

Well I used parasite, because as I said I didnt have a more appropriate term for it. I am sure there is some scientific or medical term. But what I meant by it was, a living organism that needs a host organism to live in for its further survival.

A born baby also relies entirely on a "host" for nourishment. The only difference between the infant and the unborn is that the unborn is connected, and that isn't in the definition of parasite.

Semantics? Maybe. However, I think this illustrates the point - the differences between the unborn and the infant are also largely semantics.

Point taken, I often get on a rant and forget to use it. Ill do my best in the future. My feelings arent hurt.

That's good to hear. Once upon a time I asked Roker to clean up his posts and I'm pretty sure he burned me in effigy that night.

Also VYO, I see that post was 1,500 for you. I am not sure if I should say congrats or get a life! :)

Either works. In a quirky way this is a lot closer to reality than the "real world" I inhabit (I go to art school), so if you were to tell me to "get a life" it'd be exceedingly difficult.
 
Semantics? Maybe. However, I think this illustrates the point - the differences between the unborn and the infant are also largely semantics.
Again, the difference, between a fetus that would have no realistic ability to survive on its own and an infant there is quite the difference.
One can live on its own with assistance from humans to raise that creature. But its natural bodily functions have developed enough to the point where they can function on thier own.
The other is a matter of, the fact they havent developed enough to be able to live outside of its womb.
 
Educate me. Where is the historical precedent for liberalization of marriage?

While it is possible to go deeply back into history and find societies that have suffered when they liberalized marriage, it isn't necessary. Look at the US in the past half century or so.

We liberalized marriage to a great degree here with the passage of the divorce laws that we live with at present. Are you going to argue that the society hasn't suffered greatly and is experiencing grave symptoms as a result of even that relatively mild liberalization? Do I really need to remind you of the life long problems that children of broken families have which they in turn tend to pass along to their own children as a result of their own broken familes?

It is possible to continue ad nauseum throughout history detailing the problems various societies have suffered as a result of liberalizing marriage but I am not going to do it for you. The burden of proof that allowing gay marriage won't harm society falls squarely on you since it is you who is advocating that we disregard social norms that have been time tested for millenia. Feel free to prove your case at any time.

There is an ever growing body of evidence that highlights the destructive nature of homosexuality and homosexual relationships. To advocate normalizing a relationship that is unhealthy for those who participate and in turn, normalize the consequences for society as a whole is simply irresponsible.

The American Journal of Public Health Highlights Risks of Homosexual Practices
by A. Dean Byrd, Ph.D., M.B.A., M.P.H., (June 2003, Vol.93, No. 6)
http://www.narth.com/docs/risks.html

"Suicidality and Sexual Orientation: Differences Between Men and Women in a General Population-Based Sample From The Netherlands", 17Oct06, published in Archives of Sexual Behavior (June 2006) found that even in gay-tolerant cultures, suicidality rates are higher among gays than among heterosexual males. http://www.narth.com/docs/netherlands.html

The Health Risks of Gay Sex, by internist John R. Diggs, Jr., M.D. (Note: this is a 19 page downloadable PDF file from the web site of the Corporate Resource Council - www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf

Why Isn't Homosexuality Considered A Disorder On The Basis Of Its Medical Consequences? By Kathleen Melonakos, M.A., R.N.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/medconsequences.html

Studies on Homosexuality and Mental Health
http://www.narth.com/docs/recent.html

Research Studies and Journal Articles of Interest
http://www.narth.com/docs/studiesofinterest.html

Sexually Transmitted Depression – The New STD?, Warren Throckmorton, PhD,
November 29, 2005
http://www.drthrockmorton.com/article.asp?id=173


The beneficial effect of a stable family structure for generation after generation upon a society is well known and undeniable as well as the harmful effect of an unstable family structure. Since you are primarily interested in homosexual marriage, here are some results from a study in a nation in which there is no particular stigma attatched to homosexuality and in which homosexual marriage is legal.

Major Study Finds New Evidence That Childhood Family Factors Influence Sexual Orientation (10/06)

[Peer-reviewed journal, Archives of Sexual Behavior 10/06]

It provides striking new evidence for the influence of childhood family factors on sexual-orientation development. The 12-year study used a population-based sample of 2,000,355 native-born Danes between the ages of 18 and 49.

Denmark -- a country noted for its tolerance of a wide variety of alternative lifestyles, including homosexual partnerships -- was the first country to legalize homosexual "marriage".

The study found that men who did not live with both parents until age 18 were 56%-76% more likely to "marry" another man. The researchers Morten Frisch and Anders Hviid conclude by saying, "Whatever ingredients determine a person's sexual preferences and marital choices, our population-based study shows that parental interactions are important." Notice they didn't say "parental genes" were important but family structures. [FRC, 13Dec06]

The researchers assessed detailed marriage records for all Danish-born men and women marrying a same-sex partner from the years 1989 through 2001. With access to the "virtually complete registry coverage of the entire Danish population," the study sample therefore lacked the problematic selection bias that has plagued many previous studies on sexual orientation.

Parental Influences on Sexual Orientation Development The authors conclude: "Our study provides population-based, prospective evidence that childhood family experiences are important determinants of heterosexual and homosexual marriage decisions in adulthood."

Assuming that people who marry heterosexually are almost always heterosexual -- especially in a country where homosexuality carries little stigma, and gay marriage is legal -- and people who marry homosexually can be presumed to be homosexual, the study's findings offer intriguing evidence about family factors separating homosexual from heterosexual persons.

The following are findings from this new data:

Men who marry homosexually are more likely to have been raised in a family with unstable parental relationships -- particularly, absent or unknown fathers and divorced parents.

Findings on women who marry homosexually were less pronounced, but were still associated with a childhood marked by a broken family.

The rates of same-sex marriage "were elevated among women who experienced maternal death during adolescence, women with short duration of parental marriage, and women with long duration of mother-absent cohabitation with father."

Men and women with "unknown fathers" were significantly less likely to marry a person of the opposite sex than were their peers with known fathers.

Men who experienced parental death during childhood or adolescence "had significantly lower heterosexual marriage rates than peers whose parents were both alive on their 18th birthday.

The younger the age of the father's death, the lower was the likelihood of heterosexual marriage."

"The shorter the duration of parental marriage, the higher was the likelihood of homosexual marriage...homosexual marriage rates were 36% and 26% higher among men and women, respectively, who experienced parental divorce after less than six years of marriage, than among peers whose parents remained married for all 18 years of childhood and adolescence."

"Men whose parents divorced before their 6th birthday were 39% more likely to marry homosexually than peers from intact parental marriages."

"Men whose cohabitation with both parents ended before age 18 years had significantly (55% -76%) higher rates of homosexual marriage than men who cohabited with both parents until 18 years."

The mother's age was directly linked to the likelihood of homosexual marriage among men -- the older the mother, the more likely her son was to marry another man. Also, "only children" were more likely to be homosexual. - Persons born in large cities were significantly more likely to marry a same-sex partner -- suggesting that cultural factors might also affect the development of sexual orientation.

"Whatever ingredients determine a person's sexual preferences and marital choices," conclude the study's authors, "our population-based study shows that parental interactions are important." Reference:"Childhood Family Correlates of Heterosexual and Homosexual Marriages: A National Cohort Study of Two Million Danes," by Morten Frisch and Anders Hviid, Archives of Sexual Behavior Oct 13, 2006 [NARTH: http://www.narth.com/index.html


How we view slavery and voting have both changed. Once upon a time, it was acceptable for people to own other people. Once upon a time, it was acceptable that only white male landowners could vote. When those sentiments changed the institutions themselves were changed.

How we view them may have changed, but we have not redefined thier meanings. There is a difference between simply changing ones view on a thing and redefining that thing entirely.

Your definitions were oversimplifications.

My definitions are accurate. It is telling that you find it necessary to overcomplicate an issue in order to make a point. If your point was valid, it could be made in the face of the simple truth.
 
Werbung:
Educate me. Where is the historical precedent for liberalization of marriage?

While it is possible to go deeply back into history and find societies that have suffered when they liberalized marriage, it isn't necessary. Look at the US in the past half century or so.

We liberalized marriage to a great degree here with the passage of the divorce laws that we live with at present. Are you going to argue that the society hasn't suffered greatly and is experiencing grave symptoms as a result of even that relatively mild liberalization? Do I really need to remind you of the life long problems that children of broken families have which they in turn tend to pass along to their own children as a result of their own broken familes?

It is possible to continue ad nauseum throughout history detailing the problems various societies have suffered as a result of liberalizing marriage but I am not going to do it for you. The burden of proof that allowing gay marriage won't harm society falls squarely on you since it is you who is advocating that we disregard social norms that have been time tested for millenia. Feel free to prove your case at any time.

There is an ever growing body of evidence that highlights the destructive nature of homosexuality and homosexual relationships. To advocate normalizing a relationship that is unhealthy for those who participate and in turn, normalize the consequences for society as a whole is simply irresponsible.

The American Journal of Public Health Highlights Risks of Homosexual Practices
by A. Dean Byrd, Ph.D., M.B.A., M.P.H., (June 2003, Vol.93, No. 6)
http://www.narth.com/docs/risks.html

"Suicidality and Sexual Orientation: Differences Between Men and Women in a General Population-Based Sample From The Netherlands", 17Oct06, published in Archives of Sexual Behavior (June 2006) found that even in gay-tolerant cultures, suicidality rates are higher among gays than among heterosexual males. http://www.narth.com/docs/netherlands.html

The Health Risks of Gay Sex, by internist John R. Diggs, Jr., M.D. (Note: this is a 19 page downloadable PDF file from the web site of the Corporate Resource Council - www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf

Why Isn't Homosexuality Considered A Disorder On The Basis Of Its Medical Consequences? By Kathleen Melonakos, M.A., R.N.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/medconsequences.html

Studies on Homosexuality and Mental Health
http://www.narth.com/docs/recent.html

Research Studies and Journal Articles of Interest
http://www.narth.com/docs/studiesofinterest.html

Sexually Transmitted Depression – The New STD?, Warren Throckmorton, PhD,
November 29, 2005
http://www.drthrockmorton.com/article.asp?id=173


The beneficial effect of a stable family structure for generation after generation upon a society is well known and undeniable as well as the harmful effect of an unstable family structure. Since you are primarily interested in homosexual marriage, here are some results from a study in a nation in which there is no particular stigma attatched to homosexuality and in which homosexual marriage is legal.

Major Study Finds New Evidence That Childhood Family Factors Influence Sexual Orientation (10/06)

[Peer-reviewed journal, Archives of Sexual Behavior 10/06]

It provides striking new evidence for the influence of childhood family factors on sexual-orientation development. The 12-year study used a population-based sample of 2,000,355 native-born Danes between the ages of 18 and 49.

Denmark -- a country noted for its tolerance of a wide variety of alternative lifestyles, including homosexual partnerships -- was the first country to legalize homosexual "marriage".

The study found that men who did not live with both parents until age 18 were 56%-76% more likely to "marry" another man. The researchers Morten Frisch and Anders Hviid conclude by saying, "Whatever ingredients determine a person's sexual preferences and marital choices, our population-based study shows that parental interactions are important." Notice they didn't say "parental genes" were important but family structures. [FRC, 13Dec06]

The researchers assessed detailed marriage records for all Danish-born men and women marrying a same-sex partner from the years 1989 through 2001. With access to the "virtually complete registry coverage of the entire Danish population," the study sample therefore lacked the problematic selection bias that has plagued many previous studies on sexual orientation.

Parental Influences on Sexual Orientation Development The authors conclude: "Our study provides population-based, prospective evidence that childhood family experiences are important determinants of heterosexual and homosexual marriage decisions in adulthood."

Assuming that people who marry heterosexually are almost always heterosexual -- especially in a country where homosexuality carries little stigma, and gay marriage is legal -- and people who marry homosexually can be presumed to be homosexual, the study's findings offer intriguing evidence about family factors separating homosexual from heterosexual persons.

The following are findings from this new data:

Men who marry homosexually are more likely to have been raised in a family with unstable parental relationships -- particularly, absent or unknown fathers and divorced parents.

Findings on women who marry homosexually were less pronounced, but were still associated with a childhood marked by a broken family.

The rates of same-sex marriage "were elevated among women who experienced maternal death during adolescence, women with short duration of parental marriage, and women with long duration of mother-absent cohabitation with father."

Men and women with "unknown fathers" were significantly less likely to marry a person of the opposite sex than were their peers with known fathers.

Men who experienced parental death during childhood or adolescence "had significantly lower heterosexual marriage rates than peers whose parents were both alive on their 18th birthday.

The younger the age of the father's death, the lower was the likelihood of heterosexual marriage."

"The shorter the duration of parental marriage, the higher was the likelihood of homosexual marriage...homosexual marriage rates were 36% and 26% higher among men and women, respectively, who experienced parental divorce after less than six years of marriage, than among peers whose parents remained married for all 18 years of childhood and adolescence."

"Men whose parents divorced before their 6th birthday were 39% more likely to marry homosexually than peers from intact parental marriages."

"Men whose cohabitation with both parents ended before age 18 years had significantly (55% -76%) higher rates of homosexual marriage than men who cohabited with both parents until 18 years."

The mother's age was directly linked to the likelihood of homosexual marriage among men -- the older the mother, the more likely her son was to marry another man. Also, "only children" were more likely to be homosexual. - Persons born in large cities were significantly more likely to marry a same-sex partner -- suggesting that cultural factors might also affect the development of sexual orientation.

"Whatever ingredients determine a person's sexual preferences and marital choices," conclude the study's authors, "our population-based study shows that parental interactions are important." Reference:"Childhood Family Correlates of Heterosexual and Homosexual Marriages: A National Cohort Study of Two Million Danes," by Morten Frisch and Anders Hviid, Archives of Sexual Behavior Oct 13, 2006 [NARTH: http://www.narth.com/index.html


How we view slavery and voting have both changed. Once upon a time, it was acceptable for people to own other people. Once upon a time, it was acceptable that only white male landowners could vote. When those sentiments changed the institutions themselves were changed.

How we view them may have changed, but we have not redefined thier meanings. There is a difference between simply changing ones view on a thing and redefining that thing entirely.

Your definitions were oversimplifications.

My definitions are accurate. It is telling that you find it necessary to overcomplicate an issue in order to make a point. If your point was valid, it could be made in the face of the simple truth.
 
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