Children in single-mother households

[Lagboltz]

Second post from you with zero solutions. Thanks for your suggestion though, but politics is way too scummy for me.

Rather than whacking off their body parts, they could be given parole only if they pass a GED or learn a trade, or other measurable tangible achievements. That would be more beneficial to both them and society.

 

[Andy]

Rather than whacking off their body parts, they could be given parole only if they pass a GED or learn a trade, or other measurable tangible achievements. That would be more beneficial to both them and society.

Only 1/3rd of prison inmates do not have a GED. Further, only 1 in 10 that completes a GED, will not return to prison.

In other words, most of the people that will take advantage of the GED program, are people who likely wouldn't do anything to return to prison anyway.

The rest, who would, will do so whether they have a GED or not. After all, most of 2/3rds of prisoners who already have a GED or equal high school education, are already multiple-time offenders.

Further, GED programs are already availible in most states nation wide, yet clearly it has not helped. Would you care to come up with a new idea? Or maybe we should learn from other governments who have successfully dealt with crime... harshly.

 

[Dr.Who]

Is that a reason to not do it?

Like any addiction we have to first admit how horrible it is then take drastic steps to end it. The recovery can't be worse than the addiction but the addiction can't be left to continue either.

We could cut it by amounts that have been done before. Then we could phase out the rest of it.

Then we could actually provide all children with an education that permits decent work.

 

[Lagboltz]

Only 1/3rd of prison inmates do not have a GED. Further, only 1 in 10 that completes a GED, will not return to prison.

In other words, most of the people that will take advantage of the GED program, are people who likely wouldn't do anything to return to prison anyway.

The rest, who would, will do so whether they have a GED or not. After all, most of 2/3rds of prisoners who already have a GED or equal high school education, are already multiple-time offenders.

Further, GED programs are already availible in most states nation wide, yet clearly it has not helped. Would you care to come up with a new idea? Or maybe we should learn from other governments who have successfully dealt with crime... harshly.

You are promoting dismembering crooks that steal. You cite statistics for the general prison population. Most are in prison for violent crimes.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/prisons.htm Has the following statistics for 2005

53% Violent
19% Property
20% Drug
8% Public-order

Not all property crimes involve burglary, so that is somewhat less than 19%. Property offenses that aren't stealing include destruction of property, trespassing, vandalism, criminal tampering, and other property offenses.

So which body parts to you recommend cutting off for the above offences that are not stealing?

 

[Andy]

You are promoting dismembering crooks that steal. You cite statistics for the general prison population. Most are in prison for violent crimes.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/prisons.htm Has the following statistics for 2005

53% Violent
19% Property
20% Drug
8% Public-order

Not all property crimes involve burglary, so that is somewhat less than 19%. Property offenses that aren't stealing include destruction of property, trespassing, vandalism, criminal tampering, and other property offenses.

So which body parts to you recommend cutting off for the above offences that are not stealing?

That didn't actually address the problem I brought up. You said that we should give thieves a GED instead of chopping off a hand. That assumes that all thieves do not have a GED or equivalent education.

However unless you assume all the drug users and violent criminals are educated, and all the thieves are part of the 1/3rd that doesn't have that education, then it's a safe bet that most thieves are educated.

Further, only 1 in 10 that gets a GED will not simply commit more crime and end up right back in prison, with a tax payer funded GED. And that's only of the fraction of prison inmates that actually take part in the program.

So your plan will only have a very tiny fraction of success, in a sea of failure that results in higher and higher crime rates.

Again, the point is, we've tried it your way. Your way sucks. It's time to actually learn something from the other nations in this world, and find a more acceptable solution. We either arm our civilian population to deal with criminals themselves, or enact much tougher penalties.

You can dance around the issue all you want, the fact is your system has not worked. A new solution is required.

So what to do with violent criminal? Depending on how violent, hang them. Public cain-ing I'd support. Immigrants from Singapore that come here are very much in favor of public physical punishment. Why? Because they see that what we do doesn't work, and what they did there, did work. But whatever the punishment, it should be worse, obviously, than cutting off a hand for thievery.

 

[Dr.Who]

Prison has a deterrent effect but some people are pretty stupid and will take their chances no matter how severe the punishment. Longer terms will just cost more and caning will just be cruel.

People need to be productive members of society. If they are sitting in a prison cell, even if they are earning a GED, they are not being productive.

They need to be working hard while in prison. Hard work. Not a work "program" but actual work. It needs to be productive work. They need to repay their victims five fold. They need to be forced to work so hard that they will never doubt that they are capable of being very very productive.

Prisons can be self-supporting so that no tax funds are used to operate them. Victims can be re-payed. Prisoners can know that they are capable of working to earn a living. And they can leave prison with a real confidence in the power of work and a real skill.

I had a sewer line replaced in my front yard once. They brought a big backhoe in to dig the hole. That only went so far. After a while two very hard working and admirable guys jumped into the pit of sewage and dug out a whole lot of **** with hand shovels. Those two guys knew how to work hard. They had balls and confidence. and I guarantee you that they never doubted that they could be employed at any time. Who else would do their job? Once they knew they could dig sewage then they also knew they could dig dirt or snow. They knew that it was ok to sweat to earn a living. They could take that attitude and go to many other jobs and get hired. and I bet they earned at least $15/hr. which would be equivalent to $30,000/yr. Not bad for a person whose only skills were digging and attitude. What could they earn if they kept that attitude and learned just two more skills, or three?

 

[Andy]

Prison has a deterrent effect but some people are pretty stupid and will take their chances no matter how severe the punishment. Longer terms will just cost more and caning will just be cruel.

Funny how past successful practices, are now considered cruel. To me, what's cruel, is having such a wimpy penal system that criminals repeatedly commit the same crimes over and over on the law abiding population.

Cruel is the 3rd woman to be raped by someone who has already been convicted of rape twice.

People need to be productive members of society. If they are sitting in a prison cell, even if they are earning a GED, they are not being productive.

They need to be working hard while in prison. Hard work. Not a work "program" but actual work. It needs to be productive work. They need to repay their victims five fold. They need to be forced to work so hard that they will never doubt that they are capable of being very very productive.

A forced labor camp. I could almost go for that except there are a few problems.

First, labor from inmates is rarely the high quality that consumers expect.

Second, what useful products can be produced in a prison? We can't have the chain gangs of old because they are too risky. Too many escapees. This limits what can be produced to what is doable in a prison environment. No corporation is going to setup an assembly line with expensive equipment, so a bunch of convicts can play with it.

Third, since most prison inmates have committed violent crimes, I don't see that cranking out a few license plates, makes up for that. The punishment should fit the crime. Since the crime was violent and harmful, so should the punishment. Making them work off a few $1,000, or even $10,000 in labor hours as punishment for rape, would be extreme injustice in my opinion.

Prisons can be self-supporting so that no tax funds are used to operate them. Victims can be re-payed. Prisoners can know that they are capable of working to earn a living. And they can leave prison with a real confidence in the power of work and a real skill.

You seem to forget the prior post. More than 1 in 10 prison inmates that go through the GED program in prison, end up committing the same crimes again, and back into prison.

You can give them all the self-confidence in the world, and they'll just be more confident at committing crimes. I for one, would be more happy knowing my tax money was going to the effort of beating the hell out of criminals, than going to pay for their GED just so they can get out and terrorize the public again with criminal acts.

I am a bit tired of the spineless American wimpyness that has invaded our culture.

How did we end up so pathetic? What happen to bad people who do evil acts, should be punished? What happened to John Wyne and stopping murderers and rapist? How did we get to the point that we think it's our duty as law abiding citizens, to reward those who break laws, with a free education and work experience?

I'm more than happy to help those who come to me in need. If someone is hurting and needs help, I help any way that I can. But how did this idea come about, that simply because some guys broke into my home, and stole $1500 worth of computers and equipment, means I should then pay for their GED and work training out of my hard earned income check?

 

[chestnut]

ACLU has a lot to do with this.