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Closing GITMO was a Major Blunder

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by BigRob, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    Here is why:

    Obama signed an Executive Order to close the detention facility at GITMO. The problems that this creates (that it sadly seems Obama failed to consider) are numerous.

    Aside from the slightly humorous title of "Review and Disposition of Individuals Detained at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and Closure of the Detention Facilities" which makes you wonder how on Earth "disposition" is going to translate into Arabic, there is a major problem with the CIPA Rules.

    Under the US Constitution, which will apply once we bring detainees onto US soil for trial ensures that you have the right to face your accuser. (6th Amendment) Given the sensitive nature of these cases, as well as the classified material that will be involved, CIPA rules would also apply. Basically, under CIPA, if the government has classified information they want to use, they have to make it available to the defense, or they will not be able to use.

    Sounds reasonable right? Think again.

    What is happening now (and will most likely increase) is that these terrorists are simply dismissing their lawyers and then demanding to see the information that the government has against them. Under US law, we can either:

    1) give classified intelligence to terrorists
    2) not use it, and most likely lose the case.

    Given that our intelligence gathering is hard enough, and sources are very hard to come by, giving them up by handing over this information in the name of a fair trail is ridiculous.

    So well done Mr. President. You have you put this country in the delicate position of having to choose between handing over classified material to terrorists (thus ensuring that intelligence sources are eliminated) or being forced to let people go free (that we have evidence against proving otherwise).

    For the editorial this was summarized from, please go here.
     
  2. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    it was a mistake...yet you dont even know what they are going to do with the people yet...nor has it been closed or expected to close any time soon yet...

    But the real fault lies in Bush....who came up with the great idea of just throw them here and we never have to charge them , have any proof, give them any rights...and hold them forever....that way we don't have to make any choices about how to actually deal with them.

    just like how we now have 17 people there not even said to be enemy combatants ...but still held with no charges there. No trial, no Rights,...but that's the American way right? Your guilty , your in jail for life...guilty of what? I don't know....do you have proof....maybe...and you cant see it....but I can show you that I am not guilty.....no one cares, you cant have a trial.....

    You want to blame someone, Blame Bush for setting up this Farce. And odd how every time anything about it made it to the top courts....they sided against Bush...its almost like nothing he wanted to do is legal.


    "The 17 Chinese Muslims, all Uighurs, have been held at Guantanamo Bay since 2002. In October, the District Court ordered the men released into the United States after the government presented no evidence to justify their detentions. The government no longer considers the Uighurs to be enemy combatants and has been unsuccessfully trying to find other countries to accept them for years."
    http://www.startribune.com/world/39817897.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUsZ
     
  3. Depeche Toad

    Depeche Toad New Member

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    He hasn't closed it yet.

    And every promise he makes has an expiration date.
     
  4. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    That is the fundamental problem, and the biggest reason why Bush never closed it himself. (There were many vocal people in his admin who wanted it closed)

    Bush did nothing that he did not have legal authority and legal precedence to do... These people do not (and never were intended) to fall under Geneva protections. Holding them in this manner is not, and never will be, illegal.

    Are these people held American citizens? It is not like we are just rounding up whoever we want and sending them to GiTMO. Numerous examples of the ones held there we released went on to kill Americans.

    There was clear legal precedence and standing for everything Bush did. He did not just pull this idea out of thin air. In fact there was another case (I believe under Clinton but cannot remember 100% for sure) where the Attorney General ordered Cuban exiles held in American prisons with no recourse. This decision was upheld by the courts stating that he was acting on behalf of the President and had the legal authority to do just that.

    this case is certainly not positive however these people went to Afghanistan to be trained in terror techniques against the Chinese government. So are they a threat to the US, maybe not. Are they being wrongly held? Doubtful in my view.

    If they are returned to China they will simply be shot. No one else will take them, we certainly do not want them. That is the problem that needed to be figured out before setting a deadline for the closure of the facility.
     
  5. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    Well we are at less than a year and counting.
     
  6. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    See that's where you don't get it, Bush never cared to find a way out...why bother with something politically hard to deal with...when you can just let them rot in Cuba and not deal with it? Obama has actually started forcing people to figure out how to deal with them.

    And again your theory on what the US can do....I would love to see you try to support the actions of any nation doing the same to US Citizens.

    If China was holding 100 US Citizens it said where enemies combatants...offered no proof, trials, or even charged them with anything...and said they have no rights and we can hold them as long as we want.....would you think they had the right?

    But then it must be nice to just say they are not POW's ...they are not Citizens...so of you don't fit those 2 categories...you have no rights anyplace on earth if the US wants to detain you. And then many on the Right make rants about how liberals want to just give them hugs....when the fact we are asking for something simple....some form justice that upholds American values. But maybe thats asking alot.
     
  7. Depeche Toad

    Depeche Toad New Member

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    And if and when Barack Obama proceeds with their renditions, which he said he will do, they won't have rights or be citizens of the countries he will send them to, which will imprison or torture them or both.
     
  8. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    So put them on trail, show some evidence, and jail them here. I know its a hard concept....or send them back home, sorry but we cant make laws in other nations...not our fault.
     
  9. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    As I have said before, the problem with Gitmo, is that it was established in this form in the first place. Desgined to skirt American and international law. That way we can hold anyone we want in a third country who has been our enemy for the last 50 or so years, where they are under the military control, and held without court enforcable evidence for an indefinate period of time.

    Nobody has been able to explain to me a good reason why these people are not treated at the very least under the Geneva Convention, of which we are members of that treaty.

    As PFOS mentions, what do you think the reaction of the American people, and government would be if our citizens were treated in this manner. I personally, would be utterly outraged, as I have been in other similar cases.

    When America, as the soul super power in the world today, takes the actions it has concerning the people interned at Gitmo, it ultimately underminds our position not only internationally, but among the American people.

    I think most people here would agree we are involved in war in Afghanistan, people who are caught or surrender opposing American forces in such circumstances are therefore POWs. Either that, or we provide evidence to show that any of these people are criminals, and they should be tried in American or international courts. I love my country, but we cannot have it both ways. It is one or the other.
     
  10. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman New Member

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    ....And, besides.....where else does an All-American-kid get the opportunity to play John Wayne???!!!!!

    .....and, BUSHCO's Legacy goes on.......​
     
  11. Mr. Shaman

    Mr. Shaman New Member

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    I'm sure you can provide proof of such rhetoric....I mean....you know.....'cause the list (of such incidents) is soooooooooo long....and, well-documented.....kinda like those WMDs.

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    It is a lot more complicated than you appear to grasp figuring out what to do with them.

    If these US citizens went to a war zone that China was fighting in to be trained out guerilla tactics to use back home, I would hardly be screaming for their release.

    Well they are not POW's according to the Geneva Conventions, and they certainly are not citizens. Also, as pointed out, the problems with CIPA are drastic and were not even considered by Obama when issuing this order.
     
  13. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    You are missing the whole point of the thread, which is CIPA.
     
  14. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    Because international law creates international responsibilities. They ignore them all. Further, the part of the Geneva Conventions that would cover these people, the US is not party to. According to the law, we are therefore not bound by it.

    It is a poor argument. It is hardly as if these people were picked up doing nothing and put here.

    OK, so address the CIPA issue then. Further, the law states these people are not entitled to Geneva protections, so no, they are not POW's.
     
  15. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    Any comments on the actual issues? Like CIPA?
     
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