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Core Beliefs - Conservative vs Liberal

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by palerider, Oct 28, 2007.

  1. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    I ran across a discussion of conservative vs liberal core beliefs recently and someone had posted this list. I read through it and didn't really find anything on the conservative side that I would argue against very strongly and his observations of liberals match mine pretty closely as well.

    I would be interested to see what the conservatives and liberals on this board think.

    Immigration

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe in immigration as an important part of American vibrancy. They also believe that America is weakening itself by allowing illegal immigrants to stream into the country unchecked, both because this influx saps America's sovereignty over her citizens and because the illegal immigrant pathways can also serve terrorists.

    Progressive Belief: It's racist to keep illegal immigrants out of the country. For that reason, there should not be any hurdles in the illegal immigrant's path to the full panoply of American rights and welfare services.


    The Supreme Court

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe that the role of the Supreme Court is to examine state and federal laws, and lower court decisions to determine whether they comport with the written Constitution. An even lowest common denominator belief is that the Supreme Court should examine only whether federal matters comport with the written Constitution, and to interfere with states only if the states enact laws that conflict or overlap with federal matters.

    Progressive Belief: The Supreme Court is to decide what is right and what is wrong - and it can get help for this by looking to each justice's own private standards of morality, to dominant cultural trends, and to foreign systems. Having examined the moral position, the Court should then direct policy consistent with its findings.


    Abortion

    Core Conservative Belief: Whether you're pro-Choice or pro-Life, Conservatives who are being honest with themselves admit that Roe v. Wade was a badly decided opinion that, without any Constitutional authorization, represented a federal power grab of something that ought to be a states' rights issue. Roe v. Wade should be overturned, so that the question of abortion can be returned to the states, where it belongs. An alternative, of course, is to amend the Constitution so that it specifically allows or disallows abortion.

    Progressive Belief: Abortion is an absolute, fundamental right that must remain inviolate. The main reason Progressives must win the White House is to put a stop to the Originalist Supreme Court justices that Conservatives have placed, and will continue to place, on the Supreme Court. Only a Democratic President will appoint justices who will maintain Roe v. Wade's existence.


    The Iraq War

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe that, whether or not we made the right decision in 2003 to invade Iraq, it is a done deal. Our only responsibility now is to fight wholeheartedly and to win.

    Progressive Belief: President Bush got us into the War to for nefarious reasons, mostly to satisfy his oil buddies in Texas and Cheney's friends at Halliburton. Now, to punish the President and the whole corrupt Bush Administration, we must leave Iraq immediately, regardless of the consequences to America, to Iraq, or to world security.


    Islamic Terrorism

    Core Conservative Belief: (a) Islamic terrorism is real, (b) it is the product of a totalitarian religious ideology that has as its ultimate goal the destruction of non-Muslim Western culture, (c) there is no middle ground given its goal, and (d) we must fight it.

    Progressive Belief: Islamic terrorism is the work of a few people angry at the US (and especially at George Bush), and the best thing we can do to placate these people is to (a) leave Iraq; (b) abandon Israel; (c) dump George Bush; and (d) engage in dialogue with the Islamic leaders.


    Taxes

    Core Conservative Belief: Government is a bad money manager. People make money grow, and lower taxes allow for a livelier, growing economy. The inevitable result of trusting people with their own money is that the government, despite lower taxes, sees increased revenue (which is nicely balanced out by lower costs).

    Progressive Belief: People cannot be trusted to make the right decisions with their money. It's better if the government takes and redistributes wealth, notwithstanding the fact that doing so slows the economy.


    Religion

    Lowest common denominator Conservative beliefs: (a) Religion is a good thing; (b) It's okay if people's religious values shape their political beliefs; (c) It's okay to acknowledge America's predominant Christianity by nodding to Christmas and Easter, as long as no one is forced to observe those holidays or discriminated against for not observing those holidays; (d) People should be free to worship without government interference in their beliefs; (e) Neither government nor business should be forced to change their practices to accommodate one belief system over others (see here and here for examples of some of the changes demanded).

    Progressive Belief: Traditional Christianity is dangerous and must be stifled at all costs, everywhere. Islam has some problems but, to make up for the damage the Bush Administration has done to our standing in the Muslim world, we must accommodate Islamic demands in America.


    America

    Core Conservative Belief: While America has flaws, we are proud of her, since we believe that the American system and American values are the best human systems of governance yet created.

    Progressive Belief: America is an imperialist bully that seeks to destroy non-white people, whether within or outside of America. Her power must be reined in at all costs.


    Government

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe in Thoreau's dictum that "That government is best which governs least." Much as they are proud of America, Conservatives trust American people more than any government. To them, government is an artifice that can only legitimately govern with the consent of the governed. Conservatives also believe that individuals are smarter with respect to their own interest than the collective wisdom of government.

    Progressive Belief: Progressives believe that government is responsible for fulfilling all citizen needs in all ways. They also believe that the government's collective wisdom about individual interests is greater than individuals' own knowledge about themselves.


    Gun Control

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe that the only way a people can remain free is to have their Second Amendment right to carry arms. They like to point to Nazi Germany as an example of what can happen when a government with totalitarian tendencies successfully denies its people the right to carry arms. Conservatives also believe that, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. They like to point to London and Washington, D.C., as examples of what happens when ordinary citizens are denied access to arms.

    Progressive Belief: The risks associated with guns are so high that it is government's moral obligation to try to remove them from the population entirely, even if that effort is imperfect (see, e.g., London and Washington, D.C.)


    The Nature of Human Beings

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe that human nature is a combination of good and bad and that society's role is to control people's bad impulses through checks and balances that permit people's good sides to flourish.

    Progressive Belief: Progressives believe that humans and society are products of their environment and, therefore, perfectible. The role of society is to mold people into better individuals and, ergo, better societies.


    Multiculturalism

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives' idea of multiculturalism is still the old Melting Pot idea: people who want to come here should buy into our basic systems of values and history, learn to speak English, and enrich our culture with their background while merging with the whole.

    Progressive Belief: Progressives believe that every other culture is superior to American culture, so immigrants and ethnic enclaves should be encouraged to remain separate and distinct. Not only that, they believe that it is the responsibility of ordinary Americans to yield in every instance when there is a conflict between the dominant American culture and an ethnic subculture.


    Climate Change

    Core Conservative Belief: Conservatives believe that climate change is happening, but they do not believe that the debate is settled as to the anthropocentric idea that it is entirely the West's fault. They recognize that the earth's climate is in a constant state of flux, and want more, less politically charged, information before panic begins. They like the idea of alternative energy sources, since they not only enjoy clean air and water, but would also like to see fewer Petrodollars flow to tyrannically governed nations. Again, though, they do not believe in going off half cocked.


    Progressive Belief: Progressives believe that humans are entirely responsible for climate change, that it is an impending catastrophe that could potentially end our way of life, and that the only thing to be done is to take drastic measures, even if they undermine entirely modern civilization.
     
  2. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    I strongly disagree. For one thing, it's clearly written from a conservative point of view (or an anti-liberal one) - the language chosen to describe each attribute makes this very clear.

    Immigration: The left looks at it in two ways: first, the very common-sense demand that we treat all our immigrants (legal or illegal) with dignity, as human beings; and second, the equally common-sense demand that we grant Hispanic immigrants the right to help our culture evolve just as blacks, Jews, Irish, Italians, and other identifiable groups helped our culture evolve.
    Liberals also want to make it easier for ordinary Mexicans to cross into the U.S. - they’d like to “reduce border-crossing deaths,” and most share the ACLU’s opposition to the creation of any federal database to verify work eligibility of job applicants. Most support the creation of a guest worker program of some sort to help eliminate some of the push for illegal immigration. And not just for less skilled laborers, but also the one for skilled workers (for example Sanders sponsored a successful amendment requiring employers to pay $5,000 for every skilled guest worker they hired, with the money to go to a scholarship fund for American citizens).
     
  3. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    So, in a round about equivocating sort of way, you are confirming the author's statement with regard to immigration?
     
  4. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Look what it says about the progressive view of taxes,"People cannot be trusted to make the right decisions with their money". Ridiculous.

    About religion, "Traditional Christianity is dangerous and must be stifled at all costs, everywhere." Equally ridiculous, not true.

    So called progressive view of gun control."The risks associated with guns are so high that it is government's moral obligation to try to remove them from the population entirely". Not true, but hardly any of this piece is, based on generalizations, littered with half truths.
     
  5. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    You think so? Perhaps you don't remember clinton explaining that he must raise our taxes because some of us might do the wrong things with the money if he didn't?

    How many examples of persecution of Christians by government and its representatives would you like?

    Perhaps you would like some quotes from your democrat leadership?
     
  6. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Oh yeah, those poor Christians have really got it rough in this country. "Persecution"? next you'll be telling me they're being thrown to the lions.
    Look, the whole thing is written from a conservative viewpoint. It's based on generalizations, half truths, and insults. No wonder you agree with it.
     
  7. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. Many business still close on Sunday. Christian holidays are still holidays (even though they may be called by different PC names in some cases - they are still held the same day). Christians crying persecution is a bit like wanting to have their cake and eat it too. I just don't buy it. They don't want "freedom of religion" they want dominance of religion. They want their religion to be forced down the throats of other citizens. They are just as bad as those who go to far in the secular direction and want to ban nativity displays.

    When you look at the overwelming numbers of Christians in this country and the handlful of "persecution" cases the numbers don't add up.

    And let me tell you something about this so-called persecution and freedom of religion - I had to pass by 3 sets of evangelizing groups and preachers plus a Christian political group and
    Campus Crusade for Christ this past week on the school square. Five different sets offering ups salvation, bibles, and hellfire. No one was stopping them. No one was persecuting them.
     
  8. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Nope.

    The author said: Progressive Belief: It's racist to keep illegal immigrants out of the country. For that reason, there should not be any hurdles in the illegal immigrant's path to the full panoply of American rights and welfare services.


    I said nothing about racism. I also said nothing about illegal immigrants and rights to entitlement programs.
     
  9. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Here is another one that is really screwed up - in fact, not only is this author clearly biased in attempting to portray one side as rational and noble and the other as selfish and irrational - he creates false dichotomies.

    Look at this:


    Core Conservative Belief: (a) Islamic terrorism is real, (b) it is the product of a totalitarian religious ideology that has as its ultimate goal the destruction of non-Muslim Western culture, (c) there is no middle ground given its goal, and (d) we must fight it.

    Progressive Belief: Islamic terrorism is the work of a few people angry at the US (and especially at George Bush), and the best thing we can do to placate these people is to (a) leave Iraq; (b) abandon Israel; (c) dump George Bush; and (d) engage in dialogue with the Islamic leaders.


    How about this more rational Progressive Belief.

    Terrorism is a tactic used by the relatively powerless against the powerful and is nothing new. It's in use becuase it works. Islamic terrorism is no different then any other terrorism in that regard and can not be dealt with as one would deal with a country or a government.

    Religion has long been a tool used by extremists (look at history) to justify atrocities. Islamicists are no different in that regard.

    Islamic terrorism is the complex product of totalitarian political regimes, rampant corruption, the legacy of colonialism and imperialism in the region, a clash of modern western culture and values with a medievil mindset and a very rapid rise in wealth due to oil leaving a big gap between the very poor and the very rich. All come together to set the stage for extremism. Because of this there is not even one stated "goal" - they run the spectrum from regional to international and I'm willing to bet most of them are nothing more then regional warlords out to get what they can and using religion as an excuse.

    Much of the extremism prior to Iraq centered around Israel and our very uneven policies towards Israel and the Palestinians and the Arabs. If peace could be achieved, and the Palestinians granted a state - then you would remove a great deal of fodder from the fires. This would mean a more even handed approach by the US towards Isreal (note - this does not translate into "abandoning" Israel. However, it would take an exceptionally strong leader to do that: Israel is our biggest arms customer and the biggest source of international aid from the US.

    And yes - engage in dialogue with the Islamic leaders - - why not? I am not talking about terrorists - I'm talking about heads of state who have a vested interest in peace in the area and might carry some influence. It's about time the Arab countries stepped up to the plate to start advocating for peace.

    I think the Progressive Liberal view can be summed up in one statement: problems are seldom as simple as they seem on the surface and likewise solutions. Iraq being a stunning example.
     
  10. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

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    Care to point out where you differ from the progressive beliefs listed here?
     
  11. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    That was my next question.
     
  12. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    This link has a much more objective look at the two sides. It still generalizes some, and no one person is going to agree with everything. It does however, put that one sided nonsense that was posted earlier to shame.
     
  13. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    I believe our problem is that nobody bothers to enforce the existing laws. Firstly, we need to secure our borders. Secondly we need to get working, non-criminals on the fast track to being here legally. Anyone caught coming into America after that need be deported immediatly.

    The supreme court needs to stay within the bounds of what is outlined in the constitution.

    I dont like the act of it, but will not stand in someone's way if they choose to do it.

    I think the American people were mislead by the President. The situation has worsened and it has thrown the stability of the region out of balance. The overall way this operation has been lead is borderline criminal in my book.

    Islamic terrorism is real. Short of nuclear detonation in DC, it is not a threat to end the United States. The threat is overblown. The response has generally not been effective to deal with it and prevent it from happening in the future. In this modern era, terrorism is a real true fact of life. There is little to be done against individuals or a small group of organized and highly motived people. Thankfully the vast majority of humanity has no desire to kill large numbers of innocent citizens in the name of political and religious ideology.

    I think the federal government should operate its tax system similar to how local communities figure thier property taxes. Congress comes up with a budget. Then through a formula that is simple enough for the average citizen to understand. A flat tax rate is assessed annually. It is variable from year to year. It should reflect an increase or decrease in actual spending.
    Religion is a private decision and should be kept to ones self. We are a Christian country. I dont have a problem with nativity scenes, crosses or any other religious symbol as long as it is not on publicly owned land. The church or the neighbors want a nativity scene I have no problem. Religion needs to be left to the confines of private houses and religious buildings. I dont have a problem with one nation under god....But I do have a problem with people trying to convert everyone for thier own good.
    I love America and am a proud American. I think America especially with its foreign policy is very hypocritical. Overall Americans are good people sometimes our government makes decisions with little regard to the individuals it will effect.

    The governments role is outlined in the constitution. With the exception of a stable social security fund, most monies for health care etc should pass through the states and let them handle it.
    I am a gun hobbyist and own well over a dozen. I think our current laws are adequate, and need to be continually enforced. We should not let sensationalist events like Columbine or Virginia Tech influence them without solid facts to back up those claims.
    Overall, humans are peaceful and law abiding people. Most have a desire to improve the surroundings.
     
  14. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    Climate Change

    Climate change is real, and from the evidence that I have seen man's carbon emissions are contributing to it. How much, I dont know. But some.

    One I will add is drug policy.
    Our current war on drugs has largely failed. Illegal Drug use has not been marginalized to the fringes of society, but instead has grown to the mainstream. It is expensive and ineffective. Making otherwise law abiding citizens, criminals that face inprisonment and an upheaval to individuals and families all at the expense of the American Tax Payer.

    So, who wants to pidgeon hole me into a group? I like to think of myself as an independent idealist with a distrust of the two large parties and skepticism of the third parties. A forward thinker with creating long term solutions to issues as the priority. But that just me thinking about me.
     
  15. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    Once again, every ice core study ever done clearly indicates that rising CO2 levels lag behind warming between 600 and 1000 years. Rising CO2 levels are the result of warming, not the cause. Until you grasp and understand that basic concept, you are at the mercy of whatever line of BS the AGW crowd wants to hand you.
     
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