Cults

Dr.Who

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Cults. The original french word just referred to a type of religion.

In the 20's in America it was used to refer to any group claiming to be Christian which did not actually subscribe to the core beliefs of Christianity. This is the theological definition.

In the 70's it was used by secular media to describe religious groups that used mind control to manipulate its recruits. This is the sociological definition.

But that definition from the 20's is still very much alive and in use today and is by far the more common definition.

Many people use the former word quite often to refer, not to sects or denominations, but to groups that everyone knows about that are making claims to be Christians but in fact are not Christians. The Moonies would be one example, they are both a religious cult and a secular cult. The Jehova's Witnesses claim to be Christians and there is a lot of overlap between Watchtower teachings and Christian teachings. But ask a JW to pray with you and he will promptly tell you that he cannot because you do not worship the same God as him. He knows as well as Christians do that the Core Christian teachings and the teachings of JW are so far apart that they are just not the same. By a definitional accounting they are a cult - it is not negative like the secular definition that implies they are brainwashing people. Though according to orthodox Christianity it is negative merely because it is not orthodox.

And the reason the for this thread: Simply that by the original theological definition the Mormon religion of Mitt Romney is a cult. That does not mean that he is necessarily unsaved. He could belong without understanding that their beliefs are not orthodox. He might believe things that are contrary to Mormonism and consistent with orthodoxy. But he might also understand the difference very well.

And in case you were wondering what one major distinction is: Orthodox Christianity says there is one God alone. Mormons say that each and every person becomes a God. They are not bad or evil or sick or weird. Th Mormons I have been friends with have been wonderful people. They are simply not orthodox Christians.
 
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Become a god ? not according to them

One of the first things we’re taught as children are the Articles of Faith — 13 statements that summarize our fundamental beliefs.


Two years before he died, the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote them in a letter to a newspaper editor, John Wentworth, who had asked for information about the Church.


Ever since the Articles of Faith were written, they’ve inspired and directed us in the basic principles of our gospel. They enhance our understanding of certain doctrines and help us commit to living them. They invite further thought. And they’re a good tool for explaining our beliefs to people unfamiliar with them.
13 Articles of Faith

1.We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.2.We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.3.We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.4.We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.5.We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.6.We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.7.We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.8.We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.9.We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.10.We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.11.We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.12.We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.13.We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

there are a few things that are not orthadox though8 and 10 for example.
 
a cult is a religious movement that dies out after the leader of it dies. So if after Smith died, the Mormons died off as well, it would be a cult..Since it did not, its not a cult...Not that I think it makes them correct, but there odd strange stories are not crazy sounding when placed with crazy ones from other religions as well.
 
a cult is a religious movement that dies out after the leader of it dies. So if after Smith died, the Mormons died off as well, it would be a cult..Since it did not, its not a cult...Not that I think it makes them correct, but there odd strange stories are not crazy sounding when placed with crazy ones from other religions as well.

That is no doubt your definition, it may even be a lot like the secular definition. But it is not at all like the theological definition that has been in use for decades.
 
Become a god ? not according to them



1.We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.2.We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.3.We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.4.We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.5.We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.6.We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.7.We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.8.We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.9.We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.10.We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.11.We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.12.We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.13.We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


there are a few things that are not orthadox though8 and 10 for example.

So where in there did they say they do not believe that men become Gods?

But they most assuredly do say that men become Gods:

http://www.mormondoctrine.net/articles/God_became_God.htm
http://www.mrm.org/lorenzo-snow-couplet
http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_exaltation.htm
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mormonshopetobecomegods.htm

I know there are Mormons on this site. I don't remember exactly who but I have thought he was a fine fellow and also politically on target. I don't wishs to malign anyone's religion and have stayed away from these kinds of discussions. I am not doing it here. Mormonism is a fine religion except that it is not the one I think is best or even adequate. One of the problems is that it is not in agreement with orthodox Christianit. It is by a theological definition a cult. That is all.

While 8 and 10 are in contradiction to christian teaching are they in contradiction to any core tenets? That the book of mormon is inspired contradicts some non core idea that the bible is the only inspired book. Using a chain of logic one could argue that the book of mormon contains things that are in contradiction to orthodoxy and is therefore not inspired - but I don't like to rely on such chains. Will the new Jerusalem be built on the Americas? That is certainly unique, maybe even wrong, but I do not know that it is in contradiction to core christian teachings. I don't want to argue with you, I just want to call it a cult for the best reasons alone and not for things that are less than core principles.
 
So where in there did they say they do not believe that men become Gods?

But they most assuredly do say that men become Gods:

http://www.mormondoctrine.net/articles/God_became_God.htm
http://www.mrm.org/lorenzo-snow-couplet
http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_exaltation.htm
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mormonshopetobecomegods.htm

I know there are Mormons on this site. I don't remember exactly who but I have thought he was a fine fellow and also politically on target. I don't wishs to malign anyone's religion and have stayed away from these kinds of discussions. I am not doing it here. Mormonism is a fine religion except that it is not the one I think is best or even adequate. One of the problems is that it is not in agreement with orthodox Christianit. It is by a theological definition a cult. That is all.

While 8 and 10 are in contradiction to christian teaching are they in contradiction to any core tenets? That the book of mormon is inspired contradicts some non core idea that the bible is the only inspired book. Using a chain of logic one could argue that the book of mormon contains things that are in contradiction to orthodoxy and is therefore not inspired - but I don't like to rely on such chains. Will the new Jerusalem be built on the Americas? That is certainly unique, maybe even wrong, but I do not know that it is in contradiction to core christian teachings. I don't want to argue with you, I just want to call it a cult for the best reasons alone and not for things that are less than core principles.


Interesting and I'll try to hook up by my Temple trained friend on it. I do. think this phrase "Although it is not found in any of Mormonism's Standard Works" is telling.
 
Interesting and I'll try to hook up by my Temple trained friend on it. I do. think this phrase "Although it is not found in any of Mormonism's Standard Works" is telling.

I agree. and can see several things that it could be telling us:

Perhaps they are not very open about that aspect of their teaching, perhaps they have changed their teachings, perhaps a lot of people have misinterpreted Mormon teaching while simultaneously the Mormons have not addressed those misinterpretations.

Doing a search on "lds "does not teach" "become gods""

The first two gave experiences of people who met mormons that denied they make that claim -and then goes on to show that the Mormon church does make that claim.

The third compares two different sects of Mormons and says:

"The LDS Church claims that men are Gods in embryo and that righteous Mormons can become Gods in the next life. The CofC does not teach that men can become Gods."


On this issue the existence of two groups of Mormons with different views easily explains the confusion.

Based on the reading of a single website I cannot make the claim that the C of C is a cult without further investigation. Based on a second website they do appear to be a cult and oddly enough (if this site quotes them correctly) make the claim themselves to be a "cult of Christianity"

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c165.html
 
I agree. and can see several things that it could be telling us:

Perhaps they are not very open about that aspect of their teaching, perhaps they have changed their teachings, perhaps a lot of people have misinterpreted Mormon teaching while simultaneously the Mormons have not addressed those misinterpretations.

Doing a search on "lds "does not teach" "become gods""

The first two gave experiences of people who met mormons that denied they make that claim -and then goes on to show that the Mormon church does make that claim.

The third compares two different sects of Mormons and says:

"The LDS Church claims that men are Gods in embryo and that righteous Mormons can become Gods in the next life. The CofC does not teach that men can become Gods."


On this issue the existence of two groups of Mormons with different views easily explains the confusion.

Based on the reading of a single website I cannot make the claim that the C of C is a cult without further investigation. Based on a second website they do appear to be a cult and oddly enough (if this site quotes them correctly) make the claim themselves to be a "cult of Christianity"

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c165.html


No argument they are a cult in the context you frame. And thanks for highlighting this, its certainly curious. And there is no question there are factions in the Morman community. I would also not be surprised if the LDS has intentionally steered away from some things like this as a evolutionay thing. Not unlike what the RCC has done over time (suicide stance for example).
 
No argument they are a cult in the context you frame.
Which is the intent of the thread - to discuss the word in context. I know that some have already claimed Romney belongs to a cult and the media have blasted those people as ignorant. I am showing that if they used the word theologically then they were not ignorant. It would be the media who was ignorant for not even cracking a dictionary.
And thanks for highlighting this, its certainly curious. And there is no question there are factions in the Morman community. I would also not be surprised if the LDS has intentionally steered away from some things like this as a evolutionay thing. Not unlike what the RCC has done over time (suicide stance for example).

While I would assume that there are sects for any religion that gets large enough I never imagined that they differed by so much. So, yes it has been curious.
 
Which is the intent of the thread - to discuss the word in context. I know that some have already claimed Romney belongs to a cult and the media have blasted those people as ignorant. I am showing that if they used the word theologically then they were not ignorant. It would be the media who was ignorant for not even cracking a dictionary.

it seems clear that the cult reference as it relates to Romney is not intended to be seen as theological.


[quote}While I would assume that there are sects for any religion that gets large enough I never imagined that they differed by so much. So, yes it has been curious.[/QUOTE]

Well the proliferation of Christian sects shows that the differences range from widely diffe3rent to rather trivial. They didn't call the east/west split of 1054 the Great Schism for nothing.
 
The idea of humans becoming gods is not exclusive to Mormonism, though it is not a part of other modern Christian churches.

Some of the early Christian churches thought such a thing was possible.

Musings on Theosis or Divinization: "God became man so that man might become a god"

Plus, there are some passages in the Bible that lead one to wonder:

2 Peter 1:4

New International Version (NIV)

4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Of course, there can be different interpretations of the phrase "participate in the divine nature", but one interpretation is certainly that we could achieve a "divine nature", i.e., become gods.

1 John 3:1-3

New International Version (NIV)

1 John 3

1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

The phrase "we shall be like him" is even more thought provoking: If we are like him, i.e., Christ, and if Christ is a god, then we can be gods also.

Further, most Christians say that we are the children of god. Don't children grow up to be like their parents?

I'm not so sure that the doctrine of eternal progression is as far out there as some Christian churches seem to think.
 
it seems clear that the cult reference as it relates to Romney is not intended to be seen as theological.

Just who has been calling him a member of a cult? Lets look at a few of these accusations and then decide if they are theological or secular?
 
Just who has been calling him a member of a cult? Lets look at a few of these accusations and then decide if they are theological or secular?

I think those "accusations" coming from a fundamental evangelical "jerk!" are ridiculous.

In fact, either ALL or NONE of the major religions are "cults!"
 
Plus, there are some passages in the Bible that lead one to wonder:



Of course, there can be different interpretations of the phrase "participate in the divine nature", but one interpretation is certainly that we could achieve a "divine nature", i.e., become gods.

I have no doubt that there are some passages that could lead one to wonder. I would hope that by placing them in the context of a bible that has literally hundreds of verses that are oh so very plain about there being just one God that few people would give the idea credence. Though in terms of the theological definition of a cult it matters not whether the orthodox view is correct, what matters is whether or not the cult's view differs.

I find it interesting that in the story of the Garden of Eden the lie that the serpent used was that having eaten the apple Adam and Eve would be "like God". This one sin is still the root of all sins today.
 
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I think those "accusations" coming from a fundamental evangelical "jerk!" are ridiculous.

In fact, either ALL or NONE of the major religions are "cults!"

It does not seem very productive to call the persons making the claim fundamental evangelical jerks if you don't even indicate who they are or what they said.

According the theological definition that begins this thread it is impossible for all or none of the religions to be cults.
 
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