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Dirty politics

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by Popeye, Jan 19, 2008.

  1. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Check out this garbage. A mailer, similar to this, has been received by voters in SC. It basically calls John McCain a traitor.

    This is nothing but a cowardly act, done by many of the same people, headed by Jerry Kiley and Ted Sampley, that were involved in swift boating John Kerry.

    Every time I think politics can't get any dirtier, it does just that.
     
  2. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    It does seem a little early to start swiftboating John McCain, doesn't it?

    Yes, politics is a nasty game, and this election promises to be one of the nastiest. The best thing to remember is to only believe about a tenth of what is said, and that only after extensive verification.

    If you think it's nasty now, just wait until the two major parties choose candidates, and they start throwing barbs at each other. They'll produce enough bull**** to keep us in fertilizer until the next presidential elections.
     
  3. SW85

    SW85 New Member

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    First of all, "cowardly"? What kind of attack would you propose would be "honorable"?

    And second, are their attacks demonstrably false? If the attacks are slimey, they must be slimey because they are untrue, not simply because of the person whom they're leveled against.
     
  4. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Calling someone who fought to protect this country and who was a prisoner of war for years a "traitor" is false and reprehensible regardless of who the warrior might have been or what his current politics are.

    Most attacks are slimy because they are untrue, or at least misleading.
     
  5. heyjude

    heyjude New Member

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    I don't like John McCain because he is a nasty mean little creep. But he is a hero. To hold someone to the standard that talking under torture is betraying their country is rediculous. People who are tortured will confess to anything. Flying around on a broom stick, having sex with satan. Anything.

    Attacking McCain for talking is easy. I'd be willing to make an exception to my opposition to torture, and allow anyone who makes that claim to be tortured and see how long they last.
     
  6. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    I like McCain and although I dont agree with all of his views, I do agree with enough of them, and trust him enough to do the right thing otherwise.

    This attack is total BS and will likely have little negative effect on McCain who I think likely to be the GOP nominee. McCain is a true American hero, and while he may have talked under duress, he did refuse early release and special treatment because his father was a Navy Admiral at the time.

    I will also point out that it was McCain's jet that was struck by a missle during the USS Forestall disaster. McCain just managed to jump to safety before the explosions began. He volunteered to transfer to another carrier wing when his ship was crippled after the incident, which led to him being shot down.
     
  7. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    McCain

    Be ready. The better McCain does, the worse it will get before the convention. A McCain win would secure a Democrat win since no Republican would be in the race. :p

    If you don't get my meaning... McCain is a Democrat. If he gets the nomination, there's no point for anyone voting. It would be two Democrats on the ballet. Yeah one says he's 'republican' but in reality, there's no deference between McCain and Hillary and Obama. :rolleyes:

    The Swiftboat type groups know that, and will do anything to prevent it. No one expected him to get this far. Now that he is... the mud will fly for sure. :cool:
     
  8. heyjude

    heyjude New Member

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    McCain isn't a Republican because? He supports campaign spending limits. That doesn't make him a Democrat. It makes him a maverick politician. Of any party.

    McCain loves war. He, like Bush, wants to start wars all over the world. Any one who doesn't jump when the US says jump, we destroy them. The more wars the better. That makes McCain a Republican.
     
  9. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    That may be correct. I'd still vote for McCain over any of the Democratic candidates running currently.
     
  10. SW85

    SW85 New Member

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    Well, see, it's not false and reprehensible if it is, in fact, true. That's why I asked if the charges were false.

    Glancing briefly at the site, it seems to me that the concerns of this group are not merely limited to the fact that McCain talked under torture. (Although if it were that, could you understand why veterans would be unhappy about it?) They're also that he sleazily abused his connections to his father, a big Naval muckety-muck, in order to win special treatment that was denied to his fellow soldiers, some of whom may well have died as a result of his talking, and that he got medals he apparently didn't deserve since they allege they was a substandard aviator with a scanty record anyway.

    Incidentally, I did a Ctrl+F search on the main page and found no incidents of the words "traitor" or "treason." I couldn't run a similar search on the mailer because it was a pdf file, but I skimmed it and saw no mention of those words either. He's not being accused of treason, but of cowardice and nepotism.

    I understand and can agree that people will confess under torture, and from what I've read the bulk of the "information" McCain offered them was false anyway. So the cowardice charge, I think, won't really stick (tho again, you can understand why Vietnam vets would be unhappy about it, especially since McCain's whole claim to the Presidency, at least in the primary, is now resting almost solely on his cult of personality as a veteran, since his personality is unlikable and his issue positions unpalatable to the types of people who vote in GOP primaries). But the nepotism charge is less defensible.
     
  11. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    No, clearly a Democrat.

    lol LBJ, FDR... yeah... So he's a Democrat. Typically preventing political free speech is a democrat idea. It's against the Constitution, something the Democrats typically do not support... again, he's a Democrat. He sides with Democrats the vast majority of the time, so... ...uh... he is a Democrat. He supports tax and spend policy, big government and massive regulations.... erm... DEMOCRAT.

    I see nothing about him that is remotely Republican. Democrats are not as anti-war as they lead you on to believe.
     
  12. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    I think McCain could certainly be considered a moderate or centrist, but I dont mind that a bit. I am convinced we need a President that can really set aside partisan issues and attempt to heal and bring the country together and have a change of course.
    Of the front runners, only McCain and Obama can do that.
     
  13. TruthAboveAll

    TruthAboveAll Active Member

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    I voted for Senator McCain in 2000 primary, to be honest. I salute his service, I feel deep compassion for what it must have been like for him in Viet Nam.

    The internet is a great resource, and a great curse at the same time. The "swift-boaters" may be, as in 2004 with Senator Kerry, a group of legitimate vets, with a view that they perceive as one that should be shared. When there is a "media darling" the in-depth examination of these issues is simply not going to happen.

    Right now John McCain is a media darling. When so much of the media is endorsing either Clinton or Obama, their modest support for McCain is questionable, at best. But as a Viet Nam War veteran, and a former POW, questioning anything about his service years is off limits. For now.

    If he becomes the Republican nominee for President, it won't matter whether he is running against Clinton or Obama. After the conventions and the final campaign for the White House begins, it won't matter. He will be fair game, the media will turn on him, and all the nice talk now will be history.

    It's sad, but the media playing nice with him now is misleading. I'm not at all sure he's any where near up to the fight he'll face: either the Clinton/Media campaign, or the Obama/Media campaign. Whoever the Republican nominee is will face the same thing. Other candidates won't have been lulled into a false comfort zone though, and will know what they're up against going in. Swift-boating? Internet claims and accusations? Child's play to what McCain will face come September.

    Some in these posts claim he's a Democrat. He's not. He is centrist and/or liberal on many issues, but not a Democrat by any stretch. I've several problems with his positions on issues, personally. But whether he's a hero or not, or whether his service was 100% honorable or a bit tarnished is not at issue.

    Dirty politics though? Hold on - you ain't seen nothin' yet.
     
  14. TruthAboveAll

    TruthAboveAll Active Member

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    With the political power struggle currently at center stage between the two major parties, a centrist or moderate is never going to be able to heal wounds and bridge the gap. What will is a President who does what he says, says what he/she means, and stands firm to lead. I'm afraid none of the current crop, from any direction, is displaying that quality.

    I hear a lot about changing course. What I don't hear is 1) what the bad course is currently and 2) what the new course would/should be. I hear lots of rhetoric, but I don't hear anyone defining a vision, much less a plan for implementation.

    If you're looking for a centrist, McCain is definitely your man in the current offerings. Obama? I'm afraid that the only candidate further to the left was Kucinich. I think he's tempered for the moment, realizing that he is under the scrutiny of the national spotlight. The main advantage for him in meeting the voters' desire for someone to heal and change course is that he does not have the deeply entrenched connections and demands of the Washington political scene. At least not visibly so - yet.
     
  15. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    I can't even...

    Begin to understand this ideology. Look at history... did you ever hear of the great moderates? No, because there is nothing great about being moderate. Centrists are nothing more than road kill.

    Can anyone tell me what the 'moderate' view is on any major issue, or why anyone should support the 'moderate' view?

    Moreover, McCain supported limiting freedom of speech. This is not moderate, this is liberal.

    McCain supported tax and spend policy. This is not moderate, this is liberal.

    McCain supported amnesty for illegals. This is not moderate, this is liberal.

    McCain supported preventing an up or down vote on judicial nominees. That isn't even constitutionally supportable, and clearly very liberal.

    I'm not sure of any political view of his that is not liberal.

    If McCain is a moderate, then that's only a liberal who left the Democrat party. Calls himself a moderate and joins the repug, but he's no different than any donkey on the ticket.
     
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