Ending Poverty in America

[Mr. Carpenter]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Why? Or if you think it's wrong to share equally among all, as Jesus divided the bread and fishes, then, okay, I can understand where you're coming from.

You forgot that Jesus didn't TAKE the fishes and loaves from anyone, like Obama wants to do, they were voluntarily GIVEN to him by the child.

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

... the evil of human nature ...

... the evil of human nature ...

... the evil of human nature ...

In your response, all three of your paragraphs repeat the phrase "the evil of human nature".

Human nature is good, not evil.

Some people can be damaged by the Money System to the degree they appear "naturally" evil.

When these people are in any kind of a position of power (government, business, family) they get a lot of press.

But appearances can be deceiving ... and they have been deceiving, for many thousands of years.

Damage can be repaired.

Damage can be prevented ... but only for a certainty for all in a new and healthy socioeconomic system.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

a new and healthy socioeconomic system.

Hey Chip...

Lets pretend your system is perfected and instituted tomorrow:

Person "A" decides he's no longer going to work, at all, and does nothing but sit around the house all day.

Person "B" continues to work his usual 60 hour work week.

Will persons A & B live equally comfortable lives or will person A suffer due to his unwillingness to work?

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Hey Chip...

Lets pretend your system is perfected and instituted tomorrow:

Person "A" decides he's no longer going to work, at all, and does nothing but sit around the house all day.

Person "B" continues to work his usual 60 hour work week.

Will persons A & B live equally comfortable lives or will person A suffer due to his unwillingness to work?

Person A will suffer due to his unwillingness to work.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Person A will suffer due to his unwillingness to work.

Wouldn't being unwilling to work and contribute to society be evil?

I have a three year old daughter. She has been prone to selfishness for a almost two years now. I don't blame her. Her body is designed to want what it needs and she has not learned to acquire her needs in a civilized way.

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Wouldn't being unwilling to work and contribute to society be evil?

No, selfish yes, but selfishness isn't evil ... in adults, it may be due to sickness, neuropsychological sickness, but unless the person acts evilly, I tend not to want to stretch illness where there is no intent or real action to hurt someone into "evil", as then both "evil" and "illness" lose their value as independent words.

Here is a good definition of evil: "Evil exists. Evil is created when an autonomous dynamic entity existing at our level (i.e. a person, system, group, and the like), that either has no heart or whose heart is not sovereign over its life, threatens, to any degree, to end the life of another entity at our level that has a heart." ... from Our Beliefs.

If a person is unwilling to work, even in advanced socioeconomic systems, they usually end up harming themselves.

And I also tend not to automatically associate working with "contributing to society", as even thieves work hard, if they're successful ... and there are many types of active thieves.

I have a three year old daughter. She has been prone to selfishness for a almost two years now. I don't blame her. Her body is designed to want what it needs and she has not learned to acquire her needs in a civilized way.

Yes ... and when three year-olds act like three year-olds then all is right with the world ...

... But when 18+ year-olds act like three year-olds, then something's wrong.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Person A will suffer due to his unwillingness to work.

Will Person A end up living in poverty?

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

In your response, all three of your paragraphs repeat the phrase "the evil of human nature".

Human nature is good, not evil.

Some people can be damaged by the Money System to the degree they appear "naturally" evil.

When these people are in any kind of a position of power (government, business, family) they get a lot of press.

But appearances can be deceiving ... and they have been deceiving, for many thousands of years.

Damage can be repaired.

Damage can be prevented ... but only for a certainty for all in a new and healthy socioeconomic system.

Well I made a mistake in going down the path I went down.

I don't need to demonstrate that all people possess evil (though I and most people think they do and we hold a less stringent definition of evil - one that would include selfishness). What I need to demonstrate is that all people exhibit enough lack of virtue to make a society without money impractical. But then I would say that we have a system that has been operating for thousands of years and you do not even have a proposal for how to institute a better system. If you can demonstrate that any one mere person, excepting Jesus, lived a life without a lack of virtue, then you will have earned a hearing. Until then a advocating an undescribed system that does not include money (never been done since history has been recorded) upon the unproven assertion that people are basically good (even though all people exhibit a lack of virtue which would bring down such a system) just does not deserve a hearing.

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Will Person A end up living in poverty?

Person A may end up starving to death.

In any system, people who are able to take care of themselves, but don't, usually die young.

Focusing on extremes, however, is meaningless.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Person A may end up starving to death.

In any system, people who are able to take care of themselves, but don't, usually die young.

Focusing on extremes, however, is meaningless.

It was you that was saying your utopian system would eliminate all poverty.

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

It was you that was saying your utopian system would eliminate all poverty.

Your jump to conclusion is erroneous.

 

[PLC1]

There is no way to eliminate poverty entirely.

For one thing, as the poor become better off, the definition of poverty changes. No one in America lives as people do in the slums of third world countries, so, by that standard, there is no poverty in America, nor in any of the advanced countries of the world.

For another thing, there will always be those who are more than willing to live off of the work of others.

For another, there is more to poverty than simply lacking material goods.

But, using the philosophy that those who work should be better off than those who don't, here is a plan that will lift at least the working poor into a better standard of living:

Take the average monthly welfare benefit, including health care, subsidized rent, the whole nine yards. Divide it by 160, then add 10%. That would be the minimum wage.

Then, those who work full time, at least 160 hours per month, would have 10% more than those who simply depend on the largess of government.

How's that for an anti poverty plan?

 

[Dr.Who]

T

Take the average monthly welfare benefit, including health care, subsidized rent, the whole nine yards. Divide it by 160, then add 10%. That would be the minimum wage.

Then, those who work full time, at least 160 hours per month, would have 10% more than those who simply depend on the largess of government.

How's that for an anti poverty plan?

I fear too many would prefer to watch Jerry springer all day and be paid ten percent less than those who empty garbage cans for 160 per week.

People need to make a comparison, not of welfare versus minimum wage, but of welfare versus a plan to have a career that is continually getting better. Those on welfare now need to know that hard work will not just result in having a job but will result in having a career that just gets better and better.

 

[PLC1]

I fear too many would prefer to watch Jerry springer all day and be paid ten percent less than those who empty garbage cans for 160 per week.

People need to make a comparison, not of welfare versus minimum wage, but of welfare versus a plan to have a career that is continually getting better. Those on welfare now need to know that hard work will not just result in having a job but will result in having a career that just gets better and better.

Yes, that's true, but the problem is that so many who choose a life of poverty don't believe that they can achieve. The first step to advancement for anyone is believing in yourself.

The real definition of poverty is not believing in oneself enough to try. If you think you're a failure, but don't try, then you can blame your failure on outside influences, and maybe even convince yourself that your failure is someone else's fault.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Your jump to conclusion is erroneous.

To quote you:

poverty is an unnecessary misery and pain-causing evil that destroys lives, and poverty is caused by the present system.

You are the one who claimed your money-less system would result in the end of poverty... Only to call me "erroneous" for finding that poverty would also exist in your system.

Care to explain your logic?

Other than that you stated:

Money is the root of all evil.

So now I ask you... What is the root of all money?

Thats a very important question and I suspect you take the saying litterally... as though if there were no money in the world, there would be no evil in the world. But thats not my question and thats not what the statement implies... What you need to answer to is - How does one accumulate money to create wealth?

Ho