1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

Faith in Anarchy

Discussion in 'World Politics' started by Irishone21, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Irishone21

    Irishone21 New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kingsville
    We should all start a revolution and try to build a new type of society. Why not have a government that move towards anarchy, or a world that relies on God's law and his ramifications and rewards. Putting the power in the hands of the people is essential to uniting a country. Giving people equality of wealth, or setting a wealthy minimum should also be a priority. Ultimately we would seek to abrogate money but first we would use money to motivate people and get people off the streets and out of jails, using it as an incentive for completing programs. We would also gain a surplus of money by ending war. We would end war by using an average citizen with faith in God, not religion. We would get him to make speeches about liberation, freedom and democracy. He would make a stand and restore value to government. Immedietely without hesitation he would end war and our country would dedicate itself only to helping other countries through peaceful means.

    This is the solution. I am not a polititan, so I don't know how to implement it without all you knowledgable people.

    I hope you all understand this plan. I have trouble explaining it well, so it is ok if you misunderstand me and I will do my best to clarify.

    Peace,

    Irishone21
     
  2. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,555
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Land of the JAYHAWKS-ROCK CHOCK Jayhawk, KU
    I'm all for starting a revolution and doing away with our 2 party system of RNC/DNC...but that Utopia idea about 'GOD'S LAW' and "his ramifications and rewards"...well that would be the straw that would break the camels back!!! You think that there is a ground swell of anti government sentiment occurring right now...just try to force feed your idea about religion and your 'GOD & Beliefs' down the rest of America's throat and see how fast they come torch your house. LORDY, that would sure as hell start another civil war within this UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
    Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't that why we are called the 'UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'?
    Interesting concept and how that would all work out will be the true test of mankind!
    Ya, like back during the depression/dust bowl years where the government made up programs and jobs to get/keep Americans working, and they established 'POOR FARMS' where the suddenly indigent could go to work and be allowed a roof over their heads instead of sleeping on the streets...we built institutions to house them and contain them...ya, like back in those good ole' days!
    What, like selling off our 'surplus weapons' to the terrorist countries of the world? And then after we pay off the communist Chinese for the BILLIONS that we owe them for the current 2 wars that they are financing...we could give everyone a stimulus check like G.W.B. did twice during his 8 years in office, ya like that?
    Well, there's that 'straw & camels back again'...who's GOD, who's faith, who's extreme religious nut jobs are we going to find to suit all of us for that job?
    What, discrimination already...what's wrong with a woman leading this country; seems as though the men have 'F'd it up for more years then they should have been allowed to, so why not let a woman at the helm for a change :confused:
    Sounds as though he/she would have to be more like the 2nd coming of Christ to have that type/style of universal impact on this diverse country...or be passing around the heavy doses of drugs or extremely good at mass hypnosis!
    Oh, no, no, no...more of the good ole' boy's from the USA sticking our noses into other nations business whether they want us there or not!

    Then lets break this idea/plan down into phases...one step at a time!

    1. what faith based religion are we going to put in charge?
    The one with the most followers, the one with the most accumulated land mass, the one with the most ill gotten gains {such as the catholic arch diocese in Rome}, the faith that can hold the best tent revival meetings, the faith that allows all different sexual diversity into their midst, the faith that says all rules are abolished and we'll just turn it all over to GOD and wait for the 'WORD' from him before we make any decisions???

    See the complexities of just this one 'first thing'...but you solve that one thing and get all of us around here to agree to that first decision...and you young man will get far in life. Nothing will be able to stop you. And sometimes playing the 'what if' game can be highly entertaining for sure!

    But it will give us all something to cuss and discus besides the angst and vitrolic B.S. that is going on with the healthcare issue! ;)
     
  3. samsara15

    samsara15 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Moonbase 2B
    If anyone thinks anarchy is desirable, they should take a good look at Somalia and Afghanistan.
     
  4. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    This is a load of garbage. War will never end, conflict is part of human nature. Further, your plan for "equality of wealth" screams of communism, how has that worked for anyone in the world?

    Also, the amount of money we spend on war is not going to cover the cost of domestic social programs, so ending war will not result in a surplus.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,555
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Land of the JAYHAWKS-ROCK CHOCK Jayhawk, KU
    HOLY BAT CRAP...and you moderators have told me to 'calm down/chill out/take a break'...JEEZ LOUISE

    Nothing 'calm' about that reply...you just blew him out of the water and he's new around here. :eek:
     
  6. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    I don't remember telling you to be "calm" in your replies, I only tell people not to insult each other.

    I did not insult him personally, I just said his idea was bad. I maintain that it is, and would be happy to debate it with him. :)
     
  7. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Israeli Kibbutz system (communism) has worked out. By the way, how has capitalism "worked out" for the homeless and poor in the U.S., or the homeless and poor in any capitalist country?
     
  8. samsara15

    samsara15 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Moonbase 2B
    I would say capitalism hasn't done all that well. I would say that no doctrinaire system, per se, has ever worked very well, without heavily borrowing from some of the competing systems. Neither liberalism, 'classical liberalism', modern conservatvism, libertarianism, 'classical liberalism', nor anarchy, can work without borrowing from other philosophies.
     
  9. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    Is this a joke? The Israeli Kibbutz system is hardly a success. They have to rely on outside capital to function, they are involved in the stock market, and they rely on government subsidies to do what they do.

    In the sense that they are an actual self-sustaining commune, they are a failure.

    And true capitalism does not pretend that everyone is going to live the high life, unlike communism, so your argument is ridiculous. The good thing about capitalism is that "poor" and "homeless" can make as much money as their abilities enable them to make.
     
  10. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In capitalism, the robber barons of business and industry live the high life. In U.S.S.R communism, the party elite lived the high life (privileges not enjoyed by all). Neither system seems any better. However, because the communist countries in the past did not produce the result of a just system of communism could be attributed to poor implementation, not the system itself. Russia seems to be having a problem implementing democracy/free enterprise also.

    It is my understanding that there are many former middle-class with educations and abilities that are now homeless. It seems that the current problems came about from greedy capitalists taking advantage of a free enterprise system.
    It is not a person's abilities (work skills) that make him wealthy, it is his political ability to manipulate the system at the expense of other people. Often it is the best, most reliable workers that are paid and promoted least, while the one's with guile and manipulation end up on top.
     
  11. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    In the United States, most people live a good life, even if they do not make millions of dollars a year. I can agree that your depiction of the USSR was correct, but that is not true communism, and certainly not true capitalism.

    I would argue that true communism can never be implemented in an effective manner because it defies (in my opinion) human nature.

    Government bailouts of banks and government regulation of banks is not capitalism. While certainly people are hurting given the current economic conditions, it will be a capitalistic approach in my view that gets them out of that.

    I disagree, it is often a person's hard work that leads to success. Certainly there can be exceptions, but I think it is not the norm. In many cases, those who head business started them themselves, worked long hours, and turned them into a success. These people are not to be condemned, they ought to be rewarded and respected.
     
  12. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Exactly! Free enterprise/capitalism is not immune from human nature either. Bernie Madoff is only the latest example. Greed is part of human nature.




    Lumber barons, coal barons, railroad barons, etc., etc., are proof that uncontrolled "free enterprise" is the outcome of the politics of money acquisition I have described.

    I have lived in the working class for most of my life, have seen the desperation of the working class (through no fault of their own). I have personally observed the negative dynamics of groups including business, education, and industry.

    At one time our system could be excused as producing: "...the highest standard of living on earth...". That is no longer the case. Many European countries have a higher standard of living.

    If our capitalist system is so wonderful for the working class, why do we have the highest infant mortality rate of any industrialized western country?

    You seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the working class and the working poor. But all that may change if you should lose your job in this economy and actually have to experience home loss or try to live on an income from minimum wage not to mention if you have some medical affliction.
     
  13. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    At the risk of sounding like a movie, I would argue that in most cases greed is a good thing.

    How did these people become "barons" of various industries? I would wager most of them worked hard their whole lives to do so.

    What do you mean by the negative dynamics of groups such as "education"?

    I would argue that in the United States, the highest potential for class advancement exists.

    Also, the US has consistently (more or less) maintained high levels of output per worker, high levels of research and development, and typically pretty low unemployment.

    What does the infant mortality rate have to do with the economy?

    Perhaps my view is bias, I can admit that. However, should any of that occur, I would like to think instead of lamenting my situation I would work my way out of it.
     
  14. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    See below.


    Look up the term: "Robber Baron". Look into what the life of a coal miner was like before the depression (the hay day of robber barons). What children textile works had to endure, what child rock pickers in coal mines had to do. Then compare it to the opulent life style of the mine owners and then tell me that "greed is good".


    The structure of public education. It is nearly the same as any business. The teachers are the workers, the assistant principals and principals are the middle managers, the superintendent is the chief executive officer. The best and the brightest are not the ones that end up in charge. The ones that are most politically savvy become principals, and superintendents to the detriment of education.

    I would say that was correct just after WWII when manufacturing and unions were at their best. Our potential for class advancement has declined since then...fewer people making more money.
    Obviously if that were true, it is no longer true.

    Gosh...you tell me. No money for prenatal care. No money for doctor visits, poor nutrition (there are no major super markets in Detroit anymore, people have resorted to buying the "foods" that are available at corner convenience stores. Have you ever seen a bunch of carrots for sale in a convenience store? What has the economy got to do with infant mortality indeed!
    You do live in a dream world don't you? "...Let them eat cake (scrapings of burned flour from the oven bottoms, discarded out the back door by bakeries)..."?
    I really hope that someday you have the opportunity to try to pull your self up by your boot straps. You could be one stroke (cerebral hemorrhage) away from poverty.
    Just in case you think that I am talking about myself being in a desperate financial situation, I am not. I own my own home with 5+ acres, am retired with income from both social security and teacher's retirement pension, have $30,000 in liquid assets to draw on if needed, and have zero credit card debt. I am not hurting at this point myself, but I am well experienced with living in poverty. What got me out was a whole lot of luck, scholarships, and government basic education grants. If even one on those elements had not been there at the correct time (luck), I would not be as well off as I am today. I had the help of a whole lot of people along the way. I ended up with a master of science degree.
     
  15. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,366
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    USA
    I did a quick Wikipedia search and it said, "Robber baron is a term that revived in the 19th century in the United States as a reference to businessmen and bankers who dominated their respective industries and amassed huge personal fortunes, typically as a direct result of pursuing various anti-competitive or unfair business practices."

    That said, I am all for competition in the market place, but I have no problem with a company becoming a monopoly, assuming they are able to do it legally.

    I can also agree that we ought not be going back to the times of child labor and getting paid pennies a day. What I am totally against however, is the idea that being born entitles anyone to anything.

    In terms of greed, it is greed that really drives innovation in my view. People go out and create something so that they can sell it and make money. If you did not want to make money, odd are slim that you would go out and create something.

    The public school system is not out to make a profit (as I understand it.) The superintendent is elected by voters, and is obviously a political position. In a company however, those elected to the board are tasked to make a profit, and when they do not do it they are removed. If the school leaders do not do a good job, they can be voted out of office. If the voters do not do this, it is not the fault of the system, it is the fault of the voter.

    I think the potential for class advancement is there for anyone willing to work for it.


    Well, eliminating the current recession, I think it holds true, and once this ends, I think it will hold true again.

    If you have no money and no insurance you can go to a public ER and federal law mandates that you will be treated. Certainly there are examples of bad areas, but I doubt that the situation in Detroit is the situation in most places.

    How about those people plant a garden if they can? I understand that is not an option for everyone, but for some I would wager they could do it.

    In the city I grew up in, I know of 4 homeless kids that graduated high school the same year I did and had full scholarships to attend college. It is entirely doable in my view, regardless of the situation one is born in to.

    I did not assume that you were in a desperate financial situation. I would imagine those that are would not be on this board posting, and would prefer to be out working.

    I applaud your situation and think you could be a model for others to follow your lead.

    I just think opportunities are there for those who are willing to take them. Not taking them is no one's fault but the person who did not take it.
     
Loading...

Share This Page