Gasoline - Stray thoughts

[Andy]

Part of the issue is, car companies if they wanted could never make the thing work, and so long as people bought cars , it would not effect them. But the Problems caused by Gas powered Cars, Oil Dependency, and other such factors make getting US Oil use down a major issue for the government as well. I mean honestly most people know the only reason we are in Iraq, or in the middle east at all, is basically for oil. When people look at Global warming, and the real risk is has to everyone, the government has a job to work on this issue. Ways to do this are alt fuels, thus The Government has its own goals that may not meet with goals the auto industry may place on alt fuels.

That's a fruity notion. You are claiming that if they wanted to make it work, they could not? Odd, they have working prototypes already. The issue is... cost! Surprising I'm sure.

GM can build pretty much any car they want. The issue is being able to sell it, and being able to make a profit from it. The EV1 was a perfect example. They could either make it profitable, and have no one buy it because it's too expensive, or as they did, sell it for less and have people buy it and lose money on each one.

I don't see a problem in oil dependency. We're going to be dependent on something. If we had everything running on Hydrogen, we'd be whining about "Big H2" companies and how we need to get off being dependent on Hydrogen.

But the oddly, the point you missed from before is... where do you think hydrogen is going to come from? Answer: Refined oil is the primary source of clean pure hydrogen. So how is a hydrogen car going help the oil dependence problem, when our source of hydrogen is dependent on oil?

That Iraq crap is a farce. We are not there for Oil. If we were, our gasoline prices would have dropped. We didn't take ownership of the oil fields, and we don't plan to. Just like we didn't take ownership of the oil fields in Kuwait either. Where people come up with this stuff is beyond me. We are there because it was the right thing to do, and in the best interest of our security.

Global warming is also a farce. The GMT (global mean temp) dropped last year. It was joke, is a joke, and will be a joke for ages. A lie of epic proportions that ranks up there with the Earth is flat.

No, the government has no duty to force alternative fuels, and it's unconstitutional for them to try. Further, has I have detailed, all the attempts to do so, have been disasters.

But worse yet, and this is what most people of this belief system willfully ignore... Even if we did find an alternative fuel for cars, we still would be dependent on oil. A huge chunk of our economy uses oil in everything from rubber, to plastics, to dozens of products, solar panels, metallurgy of any kind. Not including the transportation forms that would still require vast amounts of oil like Air craft and busses and 18-wheel trucks.

I for one don't wish to see US Policy based on hoping the CEO of GM, Ford and Dodge do what we want for us just for profits. If Say Ford makes it work, and had Fuel Cells out in 10 years in mass, ( not that I think its that soon) Ford would yes make a great deal of money out it, but if i does fail, it stands to lose a great deal. The Government has a Great Deal to Gain as well, and a lot to lose If we don't find new ways to get power. Thus it seems logical that the Government should be willing to help ( not pay for, but help) cover some of the costs of tech that is of great interest to it.

Right, a completely logical argument for every corporate welfare program in existence. So do you want GM, Ford and Chrysler getting money from your pocket, in the form of taxes, or not? Because right now they are. My corporation is.

Best of all, when the fuel cells come out (assuming they do), you will not only have paid the major auto companies to R&D it with your taxes, but then your going to pay them $30K to buy from them, the car you paid them to make. Sounds like a plan to me!

And again, the hydrogen your going to pay tons more to buy than Gasoline, will still be dependent on oil, so nothing will have changed... accept how much money you blew on this crazy scam.

and to be real, its realy down to GM or Ford, Dodge is still lost in 1960 or something I think. Ford was slow , but starting to get it now. And GM,,,,well half there cars they decided to rather then make them get better mpg...they would just say they will pay for part of your gas for 3 years.. Is it any wonder Japan and Korea have most of the cars people want?

Um... no, actually they don't. You think they do, based on MPG alone. But when you look at the cars sold there, and compare them to what sells here, they are not what Americans want. Perhaps YOU want those types of cars, but most Americans find them repulsive.

 

[Libsmasher]

Thank you for those well thought out "facts" now would you care to add something of value to the conversation?

Opposing your idiotic, historically ignorant call for yet MORE energy boondoggles is EXTREMELY valuable - to taxpayers.

 

[Dr.Who]

Where I am, gasoline is now $4.14/ gallon at the cheaper stations. Because the price of gas has been turned into a political football by libs, because of ecofascism, and because politicians and others seem strangely blind to one of the key reasons for higher costs - that its price is controlled by a cartel, I think the price of gas will never come down, and the ever-increasing price will continue to cause ever-mounting destruction to american society. I'm sure arabs are laughing themselves sick at the political paralysis.

Whereas I always hope for the best, I plan and act for the way things are. I've heard that a lot of people who take summer driving vacations are cutting them back. This is exactly wrong - if you can afford the gas, and you take such vacations, you should drive like crazy and do everything you want to do, because it will only get more expensive - I predict $7/gallon this time next year.

Supply and demand.

Could the price have anything at all to do with the billions of Chinese and East Indians who have decided that they would like to start driving and using lots of gas?

The price will never be really low again. When the price is higher than the alternatives we will use the alternatives. We don't need government messing around with when the alternatives become cost effective - it will happen when it happens.

If we drill for oil here it will increase supply and reduce the price somewhat. But will be develop alternatives before we run out of oil? The answer is a resounding yes! Free markets dictate that development will occur exactly when it should. Never in the history of technology has mankind ever run out of a natural resource without a new and usually better one replacing it.

 

[Libsmasher]

Supply and demand.

And a cartel.

Could the price have anything at all to do with the billions of Chinese and East Indians who have decided that they would like to start driving and using lots of gas?

Yep, that is the other half of it.

The price will never be really low again. When the price is higher than the alternatives we will use the alternatives. We don't need government messing around with when the alternatives become cost effective - it will happen when it happens.

If we drill for oil here it will increase supply and reduce the price somewhat. But will be develop alternatives before we run out of oil? The answer is a resounding yes! Free markets dictate that development will occur exactly when it should. Never in the history of technology has mankind ever run out of a natural resource without a new and usually better one replacing it.

Your heart is in the right place, but you are a little confused. It is true that free markets would solve the problem, but there is no free market. Oil is a world-wide commodity, and it's price is controlled (made much higher than it otherwise would be) by a cartel, OPEC. Since government (opec is mostly dictatorships) are rigging the price, we DO have to bring in the US government to defend ourselves from the unprecedented titanic looting of the western world by the collusion of these dictatorships.

But we have to bring it in in the right way (obviously, that would not be the Obamabot energy boondoggle way.) The OPEC countries carefully rig their oil price for maximum looting. They don't set it too high, because then they know that would cause the market to make it worthwhile for private companies to take the big financial risks to develope alternate technologies, such as coal gassification. They know exactly what they are doing.

My idea is a minimal but crucial role for the government - for it to generate artificial scarcity in the US by imposing a gradually decreasing quota for foreign oil, till it reaches zero imports. Then, instead of government boondoggles, as were tried in the 1970s with zero results, leave the solutions to the US market - necessity is the mother of invention, and then private companies, who have to risk their own money and won't put up with any nonsense or ecofascist fads, will find the REAL solution.

To do this, the government would first have to explain it to the people and get their support for the project, much as they did with WWII gas rationing. This is where I get depressed about the prospects, because there would be a giant propaganda effort against it by the well-funded and well organized ecofascist organizations. At some point though, americans have got to see past the political propaganda and wake and do something that will work. The alternative if the ecofascists prevail, just as with all the other destructive lib policies, is a decline of the US to a third-rank state.

 

[Here We Go]

All I can say is, my SUV's value is now about $27.

 

[Libsmasher]

All I can say is, my SUV's value is now about $27.

Have it "stolen" and collect the insurance. Just kidding! Just kidding!

 

[Here We Go]

Have it "stolen" and collect the insurance. Just kidding! Just kidding!

You know? I'll bet there's a lot of "midnight" mishaps with fuel hogs as we speak.

 

[Libsmasher]

You know? I'll bet there's a lot of "midnight" mishaps with fuel hogs as we speak.

What if you parked it in a bad part of town, and, uh, left the keys by mistake, and uh, left it there for five days?

 

[Here We Go]

Hello? State Farm?

 

[Dr.Who]

And a cartel.



Yep, that is the other half of it.



Your heart is in the right place, but you are a little confused. It is true that free markets would solve the problem, but there is no free market. Oil is a world-wide commodity, and it's price is controlled (made much higher than it otherwise would be) by a cartel, OPEC. Since government (opec is mostly dictatorships) are rigging the price, we DO have to bring in the US government to defend ourselves from the unprecedented titanic looting of the western world by the collusion of these dictatorships.

But we have to bring it in in the right way (obviously, that would not be the Obamabot energy boondoggle way.) The OPEC countries carefully rig their oil price for maximum looting. They don't set it too high, because then they know that would cause the market to make it worthwhile for private companies to take the big financial risks to develope alternate technologies, such as coal gassification. They know exactly what they are doing.

My idea is a minimal but crucial role for the government - for it to generate artificial scarcity in the US by imposing a gradually decreasing quota for foreign oil, till it reaches zero imports. Then, instead of government boondoggles, as were tried in the 1970s with zero results, leave the solutions to the US market - necessity is the mother of invention, and then private companies, who have to risk their own money and won't put up with any nonsense or ecofascist fads, will find the REAL solution.

To do this, the government would first have to explain it to the people and get their support for the project, much as they did with WWII gas rationing. This is where I get depressed about the prospects, because there would be a giant propaganda effort against it by the well-funded and well organized ecofascist organizations. At some point though, americans have got to see past the political propaganda and wake and do something that will work. The alternative if the ecofascists prevail, just as with all the other destructive lib policies, is a decline of the US to a third-rank state.

OK I'm ears open.

Show me that a cartel (opec) is circumventing the forces of a free market.

Do they cooperate with each other to fix prices and are there no other producers of oil (or it's competition) that consumers can buy from?

 

[Andy]

It is true that free markets would solve the problem, but there is no free market. Oil is a world-wide commodity, and it's price is controlled (made much higher than it otherwise would be) by a cartel, OPEC.

I would have to disagree with this statement. Currently OPEC only controls somewhere around 35%-40% of the world oil market. Now granted, this gives them possibly more control over the market than any other single source... but... It is still undoubtedly, and without question, a free market.

If any of the sources within that 60% of the world market not under OPEC chooses to increase production, what can OPEC do? At best they can decrease production, but that would result in lost market share which they already are fighting tooth and nail to keep.

The cause of high oil prices is three fold.

First, and most obvious, the rise of China, India and Russian markets. These three large economies pulling from the oil supply at incredible rates, are push demand up. Naturally prices go up with them.

Second, lost production due to bad policy.
Venezuela for example has declined in production for years since the take over of Chavez. The socialistic take over the Venezuelan oil fields has resulted in ever decreasing production, not by choice, but by lack of investment into the fields. Mexico also, with it's nationalized oil company Pemex, which is losing output monthly. The people of mexico refuse to privatize the company, yet the government depends on the oil revenue which is dropping every year.

Obviously, if the oil production in our local area is dropping, this forces us to import more from expensive over seas suppliers.

Third, and the most important reason of all: Not getting the oil that is here. America's own oil production has declined... and yet... the amount of known reserves, or oil we know without question is there, and yet are not getting, is now the at the highest level it has ever been in 40+ years. We know there is more oil in ANWR, and we know there is oil in the Gulf of Mexico. Yet, we are not getting it because most of the area is under evironmental-nut ball protection. They are afraid we will kill the onchidium sea slug or something, so we can't drill there. The US Geological Survey estimates we have over 1 trillion in oil under our feet... yet we don't get it? Under the current estimates, we could, just by getting our own oil, be completely free of all OPEC oil for roughly 67 years.

But it doesn't end there. Did you know Canada now has the second largest known reserves in the world? And yet their oil production is lower than that of Norway, and barely ahead of Venezuela. Why? They are not getting the oil!

My idea is a minimal but crucial role for the government - for it to generate artificial scarcity in the US by imposing a gradually decreasing quota for foreign oil, till it reaches zero imports. Then, instead of government boondoggles, as were tried in the 1970s with zero results, leave the solutions to the US market - necessity is the mother of invention, and then private companies, who have to risk their own money and won't put up with any nonsense or ecofascist fads, will find the REAL solution.

I have to admit, I'm against this plan. Not just because a simpler cheaper solution exists (get our own oil!!), but because I really doubt your plan would work. At least not work in a way that is beneficial.

The lesson of the 70s had nothing to do with energy. It was simply that price controls cause shortages. That's all there was to it. You prevent companies from selling a product for the cost of producing it, and shockingly you run out of money, and thus product. 90s California rolling black outs anyone?

Here's what your plan will do. First, the price of (US) oil will skyrocket. Second, the prices of goods produced in the US will skyrocket. Third, because we remove our demand from the global market, while our oil prices spike to oblivion, the worlds oil market will drop vastly. Fourth, since the corporate competition around the world will enjoy cheap energy and oil, while ours suffer incredible prices... the flood gate of companies moving over seas will open, and our economy will collapse. Due to this catastrophic depression, funding for alternative fuels will dry up. Further, a huge black market oil will spring into existence, and mobsters and mafia will move in. And lastly, no matter what else happens, there is no promise a new source of energy will come into existence.

I hope you don't mind too much... but we're skipping on that plan. Instead... why don't we just... oh... I don't know... get our own oil? We can produce enough domestic oil, if we choose to, to completely pull out of the international oil market, and tell the middle east to blow away in one of their sand storms. Sadly, there isn't much we can do about Venezuela and Mexico, accept hope they wake up. But we sure can do something about ANWR and the Gulf. We can sure open up more land to exploration and drilling. We can release the red type preventing oil companies from building more refineries.

We are not helpless... we just are not yet choosing to take action. Canada for example is. They are not sitting idle. Canada has record breaking new drilling sites for the last 2 years. They opened up over 20,000 oil wells in 2006 alone. They may have been in an Eco-nut freeze before... but they sure aren't anymore. Why are we not doing that?

 

[Libsmasher]

I would have to disagree with this statement. Currently OPEC only controls somewhere around 35%-40% of the world oil market. Now granted, this gives them possibly more control over the market than any other single source... but... It is still undoubtedly, and without question, a free market.

If any of the sources within that 60% of the world market not under OPEC chooses to increase production, what can OPEC do? At best they can decrease production, but that would result in lost market share which they already are fighting tooth and nail to keep.

The cause of high oil prices is three fold.

First, and most obvious, the rise of China, India and Russian markets. These three large economies pulling from the oil supply at incredible rates, are push demand up. Naturally prices go up with them.

Second, lost production due to bad policy.
Venezuela for example has declined in production for years since the take over of Chavez. The socialistic take over the Venezuelan oil fields has resulted in ever decreasing production, not by choice, but by lack of investment into the fields. Mexico also, with it's nationalized oil company Pemex, which is losing output monthly. The people of mexico refuse to privatize the company, yet the government depends on the oil revenue which is dropping every year.

Obviously, if the oil production in our local area is dropping, this forces us to import more from expensive over seas suppliers.

Third, and the most important reason of all: Not getting the oil that is here. America's own oil production has declined... and yet... the amount of known reserves, or oil we know without question is there, and yet are not getting, is now the at the highest level it has ever been in 40+ years. We know there is more oil in ANWR, and we know there is oil in the Gulf of Mexico. Yet, we are not getting it because most of the area is under evironmental-nut ball protection. They are afraid we will kill the onchidium sea slug or something, so we can't drill there. The US Geological Survey estimates we have over 1 trillion in oil under our feet... yet we don't get it? Under the current estimates, we could, just by getting our own oil, be completely free of all OPEC oil for roughly 67 years.

But it doesn't end there. Did you know Canada now has the second largest known reserves in the world? And yet their oil production is lower than that of Norway, and barely ahead of Venezuela. Why? They are not getting the oil!



I have to admit, I'm against this plan. Not just because a simpler cheaper solution exists (get our own oil!!), but because I really doubt your plan would work. At least not work in a way that is beneficial.

The lesson of the 70s had nothing to do with energy. It was simply that price controls cause shortages. That's all there was to it. You prevent companies from selling a product for the cost of producing it, and shockingly you run out of money, and thus product. 90s California rolling black outs anyone?

Here's what your plan will do. First, the price of (US) oil will skyrocket. Second, the prices of goods produced in the US will skyrocket. Third, because we remove our demand from the global market, while our oil prices spike to oblivion, the worlds oil market will drop vastly. Fourth, since the corporate competition around the world will enjoy cheap energy and oil, while ours suffer incredible prices... the flood gate of companies moving over seas will open, and our economy will collapse. Due to this catastrophic depression, funding for alternative fuels will dry up. Further, a huge black market oil will spring into existence, and mobsters and mafia will move in. And lastly, no matter what else happens, there is no promise a new source of energy will come into existence.

I hope you don't mind too much... but we're skipping on that plan. Instead... why don't we just... oh... I don't know... get our own oil? We can produce enough domestic oil, if we choose to, to completely pull out of the international oil market, and tell the middle east to blow away in one of their sand storms. Sadly, there isn't much we can do about Venezuela and Mexico, accept hope they wake up. But we sure can do something about ANWR and the Gulf. We can sure open up more land to exploration and drilling. We can release the red type preventing oil companies from building more refineries.

We are not helpless... we just are not yet choosing to take action. Canada for example is. They are not sitting idle. Canada has record breaking new drilling sites for the last 2 years. They opened up over 20,000 oil wells in 2006 alone. They may have been in an Eco-nut freeze before... but they sure aren't anymore. Why are we not doing that?

I agree with a lot of that, but the "free market" claim is just false. No economist in the world would agree that a market run at least 1/3 by a cartel is a free market, and I wonder about your numbers. Saudi arabia has 2/3 of the world's proven reserves, and alone accounts for 1/3 of the sales. If saudi arabia stopped even half of its sales tomorrow, the price of oil would skyrocket. If it pumped everything it could and sold it, the price would drop like a brick. A free market when just one country can do that to a market, or tweak for any price in between - and DOES? Not hardly. I disagree that a gradually decreasing quota of imported oil would make prices "skyrocket" and you offer no evidence. In a domestic market of certainty about known decreasing availability of oil, particularly if the foreign decreases were initially offset by american resources currently off limits because of dated ecofascist prohibitions, companies would take the risks to get serious about alternate technologies, in fact they won't do it otherwise. There's no way it can be completely painlessly, just like other national emergencies couldn't be painless, but it has to be done, and once it is done, that's the end of the opec looting, the political blackmail of the whole world by middle east theocracies and many other problems.

 

[Dr.Who]

I have to admit, I'm against this plan. Not just because a simpler cheaper solution exists (get our own oil!!), but because I really doubt your plan would work. At least not work in a way that is beneficial.

I am still trying to learn.

So if we got our own oil and told opec to go jump in a lake how long could we survive on it before we had to rely on alternative energy?

I ask because I know that alternative energy must happen evenutally. But will it happen in a timely manner (to reduce our pain). That being said it is our pain that will drive us into alternatives. The pain has to happen I would just like it to happen slowly and without funding foreign governments that are out to hurt us.

 

[Dr.Who]

I agree with a lot of that, but the "free market" claim is just false. No economist in the world would agree that a market run at least 1/3 by a cartel is a free market,...

So how free does a market need to be to be free? Do none in the cartel compete with each other?

If we can buy all the oil we need from the countries that are not a part of the cartel then we could marginalize them and hurt their market share enough to force them to be less in colusion with each other.

A real good start would be for Canada and the US top start drilling.

 

[Libsmasher]

I am still trying to learn.

So if we got our own oil and told opec to go jump in a lake how long could we survive on it before we had to rely on alternative energy?

I ask because I know that alternative energy must happen evenutally. But will it happen in a timely manner (to reduce our pain). That being said it is our pain that will drive us into alternatives. The pain has to happen I would just like it to happen slowly and without funding foreign governments that are out to hurt us.

This is the key point of where we disagree. What OPEC is doing with us is like what germany did with slave laborers in WWII. They are doled out just enough food (oil) to keep them alive (keep us as customers). Too much and they're strong enough to escape (price drops and the opec looting ends), too little and they die (the factories stop and they have no more money to order any more from opec). You keep pointing out that the time will come "eventually" for the alternatives if we just plod along. I say with that scenario, opec loots every last dime from us, squeezes us dry. My way we get it over once and for all, endure temporary dislocation and pain, and are done with opec and their looting.