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God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

Discussion in 'Culture & Religion' started by Dawkinsrocks, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    According to christians god made lucipher.

    He knew how lucipher would turn out and yet still went on to make him even though he did not have to and even though he knew what lucipher would do.

    By any standards of responsibility that makes god responsible for what lucipher became.

    If being the creator of the devil does not make you bad I don't know what does.

    And anything that is bad and flows from that decision is traceable back to god.

    So god is clearly responsible for all the bad stuff.

    BTW please don't respond with the nonesense about free will. It is covered in the above.
     
  2. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    I'm thinkin' all religious control needs to first set up a good vs. evil scenario where it's leader is the good... or it's obviously pointless.

    But that's just me.
    :)

    It's like with Jack and the Beanstock... without the giant you basically have a kid climbing a tree.:D
     
  3. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    It is just that in this case the guy claiming to be good actually made the bad guy knowing how he would behave.

    I would have thought the good thing to do would be to not make the bad guy.

    But what do I know.
     
  4. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    All of us are bad. So by your logic God would have made no one. Instead God choose to make all of us and to make a process whereby all of us could become cleansed. Even the role Lucifer played in the process was an integral part of the plan. God used the bad that was authored by someone else for good.

    Personally I am glad that God decided to make me. I am sorry that I have done wrong. But I am glad that God has provided a salvation for me. This is far far preferable to the alternative you suggest.
     
  5. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    God had a reason for making Lucifer. He needed someone to tempt people, and see if they could resist temptation.

    Right now, I'm resisting the temptation to tell you just how idiotic your post is.

    I've passed the test, and not yielded to Lucifer's temptation. Aren't you glad?:D
     
  6. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    If got made Lucifer for that role, and he does it, then he is doing gods well, so thus you cant say he is evil , for simply doing what God who we are told is good, told him to do.
     
  7. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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    I suppose if one accepts that some "god" made everything, then by definition this "god" is responsible for everything that happens.

    The concept of "original sin" is nonsense. The idea that this "god" made us all bad so that we need to be saved is another piece of nonsense. There is not a shred of proof of either of these ideas.

    It's always amazing to me how little faith people have in their "God".
     
  8. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Yep.

    Christians are desperate for get-out-of-jail cards for god but there aren't any.

    PLC1 - calling me an idiot is a common response from the christians on this board.

    I think most people can see that it is what they do when they don't have an answer but aren't big enough to accept my point.

    It is a simple fact that if god made everything knowing how it would play out he has to take responsiility for what happens.

    And as he knows how everything will play out the notion of free will is nonesensical.

    God is guilty as charged.
     
  9. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    God did not make Lucifer for that purpose. God made Lucifer to be have a positive role. But after Lucifer, on his own, choose to take a different role God used that for good. God did not tell Lucifer to do what he did. he allowed it as a matter of free will. In the same way he allows each of us to do what we will do. Would you want God to have stopped you from doing every bad thing you have ever done? I guarantee you that if God acted that way we would be getting a lot more complaints from the detractors than we get now. The difference is they would right to complain that they had no free will whereas they are mistaken to complain that God permits people to commit evil.
     
  10. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    The last time you or I did something wrong - you and I made that thing. So, no God did not make everything. The bible does not actually claim that he made everything. It does claim that he made the universe, the world, and the original species that existed at that time. It specifically says that all good gifts come from God.
    Kinda depends on whose interpretation of that one uses. After all it is not all that well defined.
    I would have to agree, since he did not make us bad. He made us Good but corruptible. It is you and I who took that corruptible nature and actually made ourselves bad.

    Well not absolute proof. But then you don't require absolute proof at that level for very much in life except when you judge God. There are countless people in the world who demonstrably have been bad. There are so few who even claim to have never done bad (and then others have no problem demonstrating that they actually have done bad) that it is patently obvious that all humans fail to meet the requirement of perfection that would needed to be called good.

    If you can name anyone who has never done wrong then I will agree with you that there is no proof. Until then the weight of the evidence indicating that people are generally bad so vastly outweighs the evidence that one might propose to indicate that people are generally good that there is no contest. There is no proof that gravity will continue to work but so far every time anyone ever has examined it gravity has continued to work. It is not proved but it might as well be.

    Regarding salvation: if you can name anyone who has managed to stop being bad I will concede that they are not in need of a savior.
     
  11. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough while God does not claim responsibility for what you and I have done wrong He does take responsibility by offering the solution Himself. He Himself is the savior. He Himself will purify the world and make it all right. And as much as the bible alludes to hell and the penalty for sin it never actually says that large numbers of people are unstoppably destined for hell. It is strongly alluded to but one wonders if God might not just have a second plan in mind for those who reject His salvation now.
     
  12. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Only one of them that I recall just now, and I didn't call you an idiot.

    I implied that your post was idiotic. Big difference.
     
  13. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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    If you can believe the stories about Jesus, then He managed that. He broke His own standards of behavior when He whipped the money-lenders out of the Temple--it's not "turning the other cheek" when you are whipping someone who has made you angry. He (according to the stories) never sinned again after that.

    Can you name anyone who you know has been saved by a savior?
     
  14. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand both the story and the concept of "turning the other cheek."
    Me. But I have always stated that my beliefs are based on faith. It is those who claim that their beliefs are based on reason alone who are in trouble when they say that there is no proof that people are bad. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that people are bad.
     
  15. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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    I have to admit that I don't buy this either. The Creator of the Universe demands blood payment from an innocent for the sins of the (supposedly guilty) rest of us. Sounds like something a bunch of nomadic sheepherders would do.
     
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