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H.R. 2 Passed

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by GenSeneca, Jan 21, 2009.

  1. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Screw all you smokers... Don't you know its bad for your health? Well good thing for you Big Brother knows how to use taxation to force you into making healthier lifestyle choices, while justifying by saying "its for the children"....

    Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009:

    Thats more than a 150% increase on tobacco taxes...

    The people who support this will make emotional arguments about how important it is that we provide children with health insurance and claim its a moral responsibility... and they won't mention that they don't smoke, so as long as someone else has to pay for it, its fine with them.

    Another "argument" you will hear is nothing more than personal attacks on those who don't want such legislation passed... "Obviously they don't like the hike in taxes because they're heartless bastards who don't care about children receiving health insurance." If its so important to them... they should demand that taxes be raised on products and activities they enjoy.

    And of course... You will hear about how smoking is bad for you and they will feel the need to tell you how to live your life. You won't be able to ignore them because they will tax the crap out of the activities and products they don't like, such as smoking, in order for you to have no choice but to quit. (and they pretend to be pro-choice) If smoking is so bad, call for it to be banned. Taxation will only further hurt the poor.

    Here are some stats on who smokes:
    The people who support such laws are the same ones who claim to care about the poor, the little guy, the working man who makes this country what it is... They care so much about the poor, they aren't afraid to tax the poor to prove it.

    After all, its for your own good... You shouldn't smoke but banning the product wouldn't give them a chance to fund childrens healthcare insurance at your expense. Banning tobacco would be unpopular, expanding childrens healthcare makes people feel warm and fuzzy inside... and politicians have their careers to think about.

    Now... as for it being childrens healthcare insurance...

    You can be as old as 21 and still qualify:
    You can be a married 20 year old with a family income of more than $60,000 and still qualify:
    Smokers are a minority, as you could see by the statistics, and Congress has taken to taxing minorities as it is safe for them to do so. Taxing majorities, while bringing in far greater revenue, would be unpopular and put their political careers at risk. All the taxation that comes from Congress targets one minority group or another and the untaxed majority gets to benefit from this soft tyranny.
     
  2. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    Geez, I knew an increase was coming, but 150% is way to much. I hope the Senate is a bit more reasonable.
    While I generally despise the Indian reservation system in place throughout the lower 48
    At least one can go to a Rez and get cheap smokes. Ill have to find a way to circumvent the tax to get my fix.
     
  3. HankHill

    HankHill New Member

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    If you cannot out-right kill them, just tax them to death!

    What a great American tradition...
     
  4. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    I think this is a good idea..smoking is a dirty disgusting and dangerous habit. It would be one thing if the smoker was only endangering himself, but secondhand smoke has been classified by the EPA as a known cause of cancer in humans...causing the deaths of an estimated 50,000 non smokers per year.

    With those kind of stats, smokers are lucky their habit is not made illegal altogether. Anyway, I've got a novel and healthy idea..you don't like the taxes, quit smoking.

    http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422
     
  5. Mr.Dysfunctional

    Mr.Dysfunctional New Member

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    on that premise Popeye we should ban Alchohol also since it kills nearly as many. http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html

    Matter of fact... why don't we out-law anything with related deaths in it since its not good for public health...

    How about exercise ?!?!?! http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/gym_killing_you_vogue_july2003.htm

    Or hunting!!! http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-42199-77558--,00.html

    Or we could just start pulling things off the shelf that could possibly cause a public health concern... Like getting Carpel-tunnel Syndrome from playing EXTREME UNDERWATER BASKET WEAVING! http://www.vgboxart.com/browse/title/5877/extreme.underwater.basket.weaving/ (( Please Ban this game!!!! Already outlawed in 3 states!!! ))

    The point is that taxing freedoms of choice is the same and removing freedoms. Honestly if people want to off themselves thru smoking ... then SO BE IT!!! If they want to outlaw smoking in public areas over health concerns ... SO BE IT!!! But no government enity will tell me I CAN'T simply because the popular opinion favors aulterism !! Why do you think that the drug problem is so rampent??!

    ***please excuse my spelling .. the government outlawed competent teachers since it was a public health concern and I am the result***
     
  6. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    Your second to last line is really the crux of the whole matter IMO. There probably is a case to me made for just plain making it illegal to sell cigarettes.

    I form this opinion from much of what you've already stated but I'll break it down the way it appears to me.

    A) Cigarette smoke unlike before when it's health effects were unknown has now been scientifically documented to contain several habit forming, dangerous and cancer causing agents. Hence it probably falls under the category of a drug.

    B) There is the issue of second hand smoke affecting and infecting others that do not smoke nor want to breath smoke.

    C) Cigarette smoke unlike other things that have some bad side effects or health dangers have no benefits whatsoever.

    Now I will say this in support of the anti-tax people out there. I do agree that it seems unfair to say something is so bad that it justifies the substance to be ultra heavily taxed... but it's not so bad that it has to be taken off the market as a health hazard. The obvious reason for this is the taxes are a revenue source.

    From a personal perspective as someone involved in athletics and against smoking in general I have no problem with the extra tax on cigarettes but I don't like the double standard I mentioned above.
     
  7. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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    Just another sin-tax, I love it! We shouldn't ban alcohol or tobacco even though they have no health value to society and have high costs, instead we should continue to tax them. Stop the stupid and useless war on drugs, make them legal and spread the smoke and alcohol taxes over a wider group of recreational stupidity.

    Exercise improves life, sharpens the mind, and is fun, it has no deleterious effects on those who choose not to participate like smoking and drinking do.
     
  8. foggedinn

    foggedinn New Member

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    I smoked for 39 yrs and was healthy as a horse. I stopped 15 months ago and then my health went south. My doctor assures me one thing has nothing to do with the other.

    The state legislature has been trying to raise the tobacco tax for years and reduce the grocery tax from 7% to 3 1/2%. Our ex-tobacco lobbyist Gov. Haley Barbour has stopped it dead in its tracks for 7 yrs.

    With one year left in office, he has said he will sign it if the legislature passes the bill this year. The proposed increase is from 18 cents a pack to one dollar a pack. That's about a 600% increase.

    I supported the legislation even when I smoked.
     
  9. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Whats most striking is the whole, "Its for your own good" mentality...

    Smokers are adults, not children. Yet you want to treat them like children and tell them how to live their lives... as if you have the right to do so. You don't have the right, but you know government has the power, so that's path you choose to force people who's personal decisions and activities you disagree with.

    This is typical of the Statist mentality.

    When it comes to other minorities, maybe one you're a part of, you recognize such things as an infringement on ones rights but not when you're part of the majority.

    Gays are a minority... A majority of people disagree with the gay lifestyle, as seen in the gay marriage ban in California, and when they try to impose their will on that minority through the power of the state, you find it appalling.

    Women who get abortions are a minority and attempts to end, or limit, their decision - which end in the death of a human being near 100% of the time - through the power of the state are met with outrage.

    The lesson here is... If you want the government to have the power to tell other minorities what decisions they can and can't make in life, or limit their activities and personal choices through the power of the state, at some point that same government will find you in the minority and you will have given the state the power to dictate how you should live your life.

    Let your fellow Americans live their life as they see fit. Stop forcing your views down their throat through the power of the state, especially if you expect the same in return.
     
  10. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    Instead of raising the tobacco tax, they should legalize and create a taxation on marijuana.
     
  11. Mr.Dysfunctional

    Mr.Dysfunctional New Member

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    In all honestly I really don't mind the new tax per say since it will help to create revenue an off set taxes for the majority. However .. just like Bunz has mentioned... why in the hell have we not legalized Marijuana and taxed the hell out of it as another form of revenue.. not only would it end illegal border crossing and lower violence in our own country, but it would lower violence and in other countries as well.
     
  12. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    How many other things could be claimed to be the same? Driving kills more people, and cars are supposedly dirty, and I'm sure we'd all agree that tail pipe emission are generally not good for your health....

    I know, let's tax all cars everywhere into people can only afford bikes.

    And there's dozens of other things that can fit. Heck let's just tax everything till we're all broke and can't afford to do anything at all. Then we'll all do nothing dangerous, nothing dirty, nothing hazardous, and be really lame bored people living pathetic lives.
     
  13. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Secondhand smoke is classified as a known human carcinogen..yearly it accounts for..

    an estimated 35,000 deaths from heart disease in non-smokers who live with smokers

    about 3,000 lung cancer deaths in non-smoking adults

    other breathing problems in non-smokers, including coughing, mucus, chest discomfort, and reduced lung function

    150,000 to 300,000 lung infections (such as pneumonia and bronchitis) in children younger than 18 months of age, which result in 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations annually

    increases in the number and severity of asthma attacks in about 200,000 to 1 million children who have asthma

    more than 750,000 middle ear infections in children


    The 2006 US Surgeon General's report reached some important conclusions:

    Secondhand smoke causes premature death and disease in children and in adults who do not smoke.

    Children exposed to secondhand smoke are at an increased risk of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), acute respiratory infections, ear problems, and more severe asthma. Smoking by parents causes breathing (respiratory) symptoms and slows lung growth in their children.

    Secondhand smoke immediately affects the heart and blood circulation in a harmful way. Over a longer time it also causes heart disease and lung cancer.

    The scientific evidence shows that there is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke.

    Many millions of Americans, both children and adults, are still exposed to secondhand smoke in their homes and workplaces despite a great deal of progress in tobacco control.

    The only way to fully protect non-smokers from exposure to secondhand smoke indoors is to prevent all smoking in that indoor space or building. Separating smokers from non-smokers, cleaning the air, and ventilating buildings cannot keep non-smokers from being exposed to secondhand smoke.


    http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Secondhand_Smoke-Clean_Indoor_Air.asp


    If you want to kill yourself, that's your business...just do it in your own home and keep it away from those of us who care about their health. BTW, if you care about your family..I'd keep it away from them too.

    I understand a drug addiction can be a hard thing to break but, IMO, in today's day and age, knowing the severe health risks that smoking imposes upon the smoker and his or her loved ones, there is absolutely no excuse to continue such a debilitating habit.
     
  14. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Then push to BAN it or make more laws restricting where people can smoke... This tax does neither, which makes your stats, and your argument, totally irrelevent to the topic.

    And if you feel the program these taxes support is worth funding, BEG the legislature to tax you on activities, products and lifestyle choices that you enjoy. If they don't see the wisdom in raising YOUR taxes, and you still want such a program to have funding, open YOUR wallet and send in YOUR money to see that it gets done.
     
  15. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Smoking is much more than just a personal choice, by engaging in the habit, you are imposing that choice upon others through secondhand smoke.

    My stats are relevant because in many cases the health costs of the innocent non smoker, made ill by secondhand smoke, are borne by the taxpayer. I think smoking should be taxed to the gills.

    It's completely beyond me why anybody would pay good money to knowingly inhale carcinogens.

    BTW, in 2005 here in Washington state, we passed overwhelmingly an initiative banning smoking in and within 25 ft of all public places and workplaces. That's the wave of the future, non smokers have had enough of the typical non-caring rude smoker, who cares little or nothing for the health of others.
     
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