Handing Iraq back to Al Qaeda: How do our Iraq war vets feel about that?

Withdrawing troops from Iraq was Bush's plan, not Obama's:

President Barack Obama told disabled veterans in Atlanta on Monday that he was fulfilling a campaign promise by ending U.S. combat operations in Iraq “on schedule,” by Aug. 31.

But the timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops in Iraq was decided during the Bush administration with the signing of the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) by U.S. and Iraq officials on Nov. 16, 2008. The Iraqi parliament signed SOFA on Nov. 27, 2008.

So, let's give credit where credit is due. Ending the American involvement in Iraq was not Obama's idea. Starting it was not his doing either.
 
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Withdrawing troops from Iraq was Bush's plan, not Obama's:



So, let's give credit where credit is due. Ending the American involvement in Iraq was not Obama's idea. Starting it was not his doing either.

No, but Obama was the one who pulled all the troops out and he's the one who could have contained the mess we are seeing now, when it first started spilling over the Syrian border.

That's like saying that the next President won't have to deal with the mess that Obama's making of our foreign policy and whats going on inside our country now.
 
So it was Bush's idea ..... Obama acts on it, takes credit for it and now that it's another Obama disaster policy it's Bush's fault ....

LOL .... you can't make this stuff up!! :ROFLMAO:
 
Withdrawing troops from Iraq was Bush's plan, not Obama's:

So, let's give credit where credit is due. Ending the American involvement in Iraq was not Obama's idea. Starting it was not his doing either.

Don't forget that the Obama Admin tried to negotiate a new SOFA - and was unsuccessful - thus ensuring that all troops would leave on the timeline set by Bush. Arguably Obama (Biden tried to negotiate it) was disengaged and didn't really want to get a deal - but arguably the Iraqi government was playing politics as well and refused on some very key issues - ultimately ensuring we would leave.
 
Actually, the truth is ... the people have said what they were told to say.
That is an amazingly narrow minded bigotry. You have little respect for 78% of the American public. If you think most people are bought off so easily, why bother promoting democracy. It seems to be an illusion to you.
 
the Iraqi government was playing politics as well and refused on some very key issues - ultimately ensuring we would leave.

What about when Maliki asked for Obama's help and got the cold shoulder? Obama was too busy running around telling everyone that al Qaeda was on the run and that the war on terror was over.
 
What about when Maliki asked for Obama's help and got the cold shoulder? Obama was too busy running around telling everyone that al Qaeda was on the run an. that the war on terror was over.
The others seem to recall what they wish. Ibama did what bush would not which is to be childish when he needed to be an adult. The Iraqis exerted some independance when they started getting it together like and teenager might but when they learned they were not as ready as thet believed they got sink or swim from bo. That may be the right move fir a teenager who flunks a test but when thete are millions if lives in the mix its just not.

And so those lives are being taken as any fool knew they would. And obama is responsible for them all.
 
Don't forget that the Obama Admin tried to negotiate a new SOFA - and was unsuccessful - thus ensuring that all troops would leave on the timeline set by Bush. Arguably Obama (Biden tried to negotiate it) was disengaged and didn't really want to get a deal - but arguably the Iraqi government was playing politics as well and refused on some very key issues - ultimately ensuring we would leave.
The Iraqi government wanted us gone, and so, now we're gone. Let's let them take care of their own problems.
 
What about when Maliki asked for Obama's help and got the cold shoulder? Obama was too busy running around telling everyone that al Qaeda was on the run and that the war on terror was over.

To a large extent in late 2013, Sunni insurgents caused a lot of violence on the belief (rightfully so) that they were sidelined by the Shiite government.

Maliki wants to use the US military to crush his political opposition. That should not be a legitimate function of our role in Iraq - and it certainly won't solve any problems.

Certainly there is/was spillover from issues in Syria, but there are some serious underlying sectarian issues in Iraq, and letting one side manipulate our military to serve their own political ends is not acceptable.

Stopping a raging insurgency like ISIS - which I believe can be done by airstrikes - should be priority, but the Iraqi government will need to work through a lot of other issues on their own - and we shouldn't be taking sides in that.
 
The Iraqi government wanted us gone, and so, now we're gone. Let's let them take care of their own problems.

Oh sure, let a vicious offshoot of al Qaeda have it's own state and oil fields. That's sure to make us safe.
 
Oh sure, let a vicious offshoot of al Qaeda have it's own state and oil fields. That's sure to make us safe.
Or, conversely, if we're going to go in and take out this ISIS, let's do it right this time. Let's declare war and go in with no holds barred to take over the country by force and kill all of the enemy. The terrorists aren't going to capitulate, after all, so the only alternative is to totally wipe them out. Let's drop the pretense of winning hearts and minds and nation building, forget about trying to establish a democracy in the Middle East, and simply admit what war is all about and take over by force of arms, period.
 
Or, conversely, if we're going to go in and take out this ISIS, let's do it right this time. Let's declare war and go in with no holds barred to take over the country by force and kill all of the enemy. The terrorists aren't going to capitulate, after all, so the only alternative is to totally wipe them out. Let's drop the pretense of winning hearts and minds and nation building, forget about trying to establish a democracy in the Middle East, and simply admit what war is all about and take over by force of arms, period.

When they're boldly driving our vehicles in a convoy, I was thinking more of a highway of death, like when Saddam tried to annex Kuwait.

We need another Stormin' Norman.
 
Does anybody -- anybody at all --- seriously believe that we can allow the Middle East to devolve on its current path, and know that we won't have to go back to protect our own interests.
Or, conversely, if we're going to go in and take out this ISIS, let's do it right this time. Let's declare war and go in with no holds barred to take over the country by force and kill all of the enemy. The terrorists aren't going to capitulate, after all, so the only alternative is to totally wipe them out. Let's drop the pretense of winning hearts and minds and nation building, forget about trying to establish a democracy in the Middle East, and simply admit what war is all about and take over by force of arms, period.

Finally figured it out, didn't you?
 
Or, conversely, if we're going to go in and take out this ISIS, let's do it right this time. Let's declare war and go in with no holds barred to take over the country by force and kill all of the enemy. The terrorists aren't going to capitulate, after all, so the only alternative is to totally wipe them out. Let's drop the pretense of winning hearts and minds and nation building, forget about trying to establish a democracy in the Middle East, and simply admit what war is all about and take over by force of arms, period.
That's not my idea of sanity. Try to kill them all? Collateral damage be damned? Then watch as we discover a terrorist Sorcerer's Apprentice deluge emerge.
 
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It means it is entirely impractical to assume we can wave our magic wand and freedom will reign around the world.

Actually, we can ... we have the capability to completely negate every dictator in the world ... we just don't have the political will. The current Pentagon estimate for the complete subjugation of the Middle East - from Syria to Pakistan - is 2.6 years. THAT is the tactical military solution. But, just as we did in Viet Nam, and as we did in Iraq, our civilian leadership is incapable managing the result.

I am not willing to send people to war in essentially every corner of the globe for the sole notion of "spreading freedom" - that is absolutely correct.

Then, I would suggest that you fib when you say that you are committed to freedom and democracy. What you actually meant to say was you're all for those things as long as you got it, but you don't believe that everybody else is granted those inalienable rights.

If you think France helped us because of a desire to spread freedom and democracy then I might suggest picking up a history book.

Did I say that? Nope - I merely cited several examples where the spread of human freedom must be done through fostering, and assisting, those very people denied those freedoms. Those subjugated by tyrants and dictators seek freedom - but do not have the wherewithal to seize the freedoms. It's really convenient for you to complain about your loss of freedoms here in the US, and yet, you are an active participant in denying those rights to others. Your inaction contributes to their serfdom just as assuredly as the actions of their masters.

I have already stated I support international action to further our own interests, an idea I regularly comment on in these threads. But simply stating "spreading democracy" is not sufficient.

I rest my case ... you have made it for me. It's okay to go shoot up some other country as long as you get something out of it, but you don't believe in helping people to be free. Your selfishness is appalling, but not surprising. I suppose if they offered to pay you, you would feel differently?

The "war" is already on in countless nations all over the world. Are you as enthusiastic about demanding boots on the ground there? Why is Iraq different? And you might note I already stated I would fully back airstrikes to degrade ISIS.

As already noted, I'd be in favor of airstrikes in this case. Just because you "support freedom" doesn't mean you blindly charge ahead and ignore realities on the ground. If we want to have any real success, we must strategically engage based on the realities on the ground - not the reality we wish was on the ground.

So ... you're willing to sponsor airstrikes, but nothing more? THAT is the kind of superficial thinking that afflicts our leadership today. "We'll help, as long as it doesn't cost us anything. We're willing to parade in and be the big brother ... but we sure as hell aren't going to help you fight the fight. We'll give you slingshots, but you don't get our best weapons. When the going gets tough, we're outta here! Oh, by the way, what's in it for us?"

Some people try to paint things in shades of gray - but when it comes to war, it is truly black or white. You either win, or you lose ... there is no in-between. This is what you, and the current administration, don't understand. You want to kill them - just a little. You want to defeat them - well, a little bit, anyway. But, you ain't willing to put your ass on the line for somebody else's freedom. If you aren't willing to do that, what right do you have to ask me to put my ass on the line for yours? If you aren't willing to go the whole way, don't take the first step.

Germany declared war on us actually. And in terms of Iraq, we "helped" them for over a decade at a major cost, and guess what - their ELECTED GOVERNMENT ASKED US TO LEAVE, when they proved unable to agree on a new status of forces agreement.

I strongly suggest you review the SOFA negotiations - you are spouting the current administration's spin - and, believe me, it isn't even close.

I'm glad this is your opinion, but you don't speak for the whole military.

Actually, as a 20 year veteran, with two tours in Viet Nam, 14 months in a POW camp, wounded at the battle of Hue, 4 years assigned to the Pentagon, 4 trips to Iraq, and 2 to Afghanistan (in support of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence), I DO believe I can speak, with some authority, for the whole military.
 
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