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Health care reform, page 425

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by PLC1, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    says that seniors will be given end of life counseling "guiding you in death".

    According to the opponents of the measure.

    OK, time to put up or shut up.

    Here is the text of the bill being considered in the house.


    Find us page 425 (good luck, it's not paginated) and let's see what the actual text might be.

    While you're at it, here's a partial list of objectionable provision in the bill, again according to the opponents.

     
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  2. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    How can you save money if you dont "off" the old people? They will get "end of life" counseling and the guilt trip that goes with it till they agree that they and the society are better off with them dead.

    Those with cancer like what is happening currently here in Oregon will be treated the same...

    That is the change we need!!
     
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  3. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    news flash...old people die.....
    news flash, some people who know they are dieing may like counsling on what options that have...Like a do not resusitate...or other options that they may choose....this if of course a OPTION

    my gandmother had a DNR done...and a retarded hospital ignored it....she ended up with a operation she did not want, and suffered for months more..this was against he wishes and very hard on her and the family....You dont want the goverment in health care making those choices...but I bet you where one of the ones cheering that the goverment made choices for Shivo...and against those who suffer and actuly yes choose not to suffer more, call it a good life, and have some peace....You would like the goverment to force them to live till no machine can keep them artificaly alive I bet.


    and how do you save money and not kill old people? if thats not one of the most retarded questions I have heard....I dont know what is.

    just a easy shot in the dark here....preventitive health care?
     
  4. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    There is no option, the end of life counseling is mandatory and it will be given either every 3 or every 5 years I read about it but I cant remember now if it was every 3 or every 5 years after you reach a certian age.

    If your grandma wanted to die and no one let her I am sorry for your grandmother. I do not think people should be forced to live. But I also do not think people should be forced to get end of life counseling.

    I am very upset that the government made choices for Terri Schiavo. The government forced her starve to death over a period of days because her jack ass husband wanted her money. I believe her parents should have been making the choices for her not the government and the man who wanted her to die so he could get her money. She was not on life support, she had a feeding tube only because her husband was too cheap to spend Terri's money on someone to help feed her by mouth.


    But back to this topic. Are you seriously ok with forced mandatory end of life counseling? Its just way too 1984 for me.
     
  5. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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  6. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    Apparently on Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment;

    Till this thread I did not know what page but I have listened to it be read from the bill a few times.

    Did you read the first post in this thread? This is not the only mandatory thing and not the only thing the government is taking control over where private people are concerned.

    again I ask you

    dont you have a problem with this?
     
  7. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    novel idea...instead of "apparently" why dont you actuly post what it says? you know facts?
     
  8. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    I cut that part out of what PLC1 put in his first post. Do you not trust where he got it from?

    I do not have the bill personally. I have never seen the bill personally. I guess that makes me much like our Senators and congressmen :)

    I have listened to a number of people read the bill and quote out of the bill. PLC1's post is the first I have seen in it in print.

    Why are you playing word games ?

    If you believe what PLC1 posted is a lie then say so, if you believe its not then say so.

    Do you have any thoughts on what was posted about the bill?
     
  9. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    the post was what opponants have said....not facts...they have said lots of things...like that you will be forced to have these things done...when it is a option given to you
     
  10. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    I have tried about 8 times to open the actual bill and cut and past that page for you but every time I try to open it I freeze up.
     
  11. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    It is quite long, and might freeze the computer. It is, after all, over 1,000 pages!:eek:

    What I posted is exactly what PFS says it is: Talking points by opponents of the bill. What I can't find is the part of the bill that actually says or doesn't say what the opponents say if does.

    I think probably PFS's link tells us what we need to know about page 425 of that non paginated document, but does it say something on the next couple of pages that make death counseling mandatory?

    This inquiring mind would like to know whether there is anything to the scare tactics, or whether it is just the insurance companies covering their hides.

    So far, I'm inclined to believe that it is just that, but I don't really know.

    I did find the one about restricting special needs individuals: They can only enroll during open enrollment, or during a change of status, just like everyone else, and just like most group insurance plans. That one I know for sure if bogus.

    Are the rest of them bogus too? Can anyone post actual text from the bill (not opposition talking points) to back any of them up?

    There are more negative statements as well. Here they are:

    Remember: These are from a viral email, not from the text of the bill!
     
  12. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    I read through some of the bill. Most of those are pretty accurate. I'm not going to blaw blaw blaw with those on this forum about what words mean, and the document is 1,000 + pages. If you wish to disprove what people are saying about the bill, you read it your own self.

    Of course the point is, I wager no one on capital hill know what is in this 1,000+ page bill. That alone is an excellent reason to not pass it.

    Spam emails usually have some kind of spin. I have not received any such Emails as of yet to verify what was written. However, it is clear that Government is mandating "end of life" advanced consultation.

    This is under Section 1233, 5A, 5B and 5B part (b). In that paragraph, it does appear that a group consultation board will issue "orders" which must be adhered to by law. These orders could include mandating a will, or forms or treatment.

    It would appear that either you, or the Email writers have interpreted this mandate of "end of life" consultation as being assisted suicide.

    Assisted Suicide is never mentioned anywhere in the bill, as far as I can find. However, it is never excluded either. In fact the bill seems intentionally vague as to what "end of life" care refers to. So, in theory this mystery consultation group could determine that assisted suicide is the most reasonable economic choice, and give an order mandating it.

    Again, the bill is very vague on what "end of life" treatment means. It's also possible that it is defined in a completely different section. Good luck on finding that section, and making the connection to the mandates here.
     
  13. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    But it does say that end of life counseling is optional on the part of the patient, yet the anti reform talking point says that it will save money by killing off seniors.

    The point of all of this is that we seriously need to take a look at health care reform. If we keep the present non system, the costs are going to eat us alive.

    Spreading fear via falsehoods is not going to help the honest debate about what should be done.
     
  14. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    well being that only one state has legal assisted suicide....it would not make much sense to say anything in the bill about it...I am sure a fair amount of ilegal medical acts are not listed.
     
  15. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    what andy fails to figure out is, that there are more then one bill to read and know...and they are all changing all the time....and it would be impossible to ready a 1000 page bill daily to keep up with changes...and read other ones...and actuly do anything else other then that one bill. that said before a vote on a finnaly all should have read it clearly
     
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