Healthcare for uninsured should be solved privately.

[Dr.Who]

So when you are 65, you will turn down all medicare aid, just pay your own way?

I will take whatever poor excuse for a product they are offering since I already paid for it. Then I will go see my doctor and pay myself for whatever they refuse to cover.

This is the way my dad does it. First he goes to the VA doctor who is completly free. Then he sees the medicare paid doctor where 80% is covered. Then he pays for things out of pocket that he could not get covered the other two ways. He is lucky that they allow him to do that.

In Canada it is illegal to take advantage of health care that is not a part of the national system (that is always the way it is with socialism. It can't survive if it does not force people to participate) Yet millions of Canadians still cross the border to pay for health care out of pocket.

 

[Dr.Who]

Here is yet another example. Again, in a private, pay-for-service health system, a patient is a valued customer, and healing and survivability rates are valued reputation coveted by hospitals.


But under a socialized system, where the government is the customer, and patients are merely bothersome 'problems' to be dealt with, the view of them is very different.

Neonatal care is very expensive, and takes a lot of time. In a government system, limited by dwindling government coffers, an expensive patient that takes up a lot of space for a lot of time, is a drain to the system.

​

Doctors call premature babies ‘bed blockers’

Yet again, this is how socialized systems work. When you are not the customer, when you are not paying their bills... then you are just a problem.

They could abort those babies who are high risk and then the countries infant mortality rate would go down. Aren't statistics grand. The US could finally beat Sweden.

Or we could have involuntary euthanasia (that is a euphemism) like they do in the Netherlands where the Dutch people are afraid to go into the hospital and when the do they carry cards with them saying they they don't want to be euthanized. Bet that saves a lot in health care costs.

 

[Dr.Who]

But under a socialized system, where the government is the customer, and patients are merely bothersome 'problems' to be dealt with, the view of them is very different.

Can you say: "The average wait time is 18 months in Canada"?

I knew you could

 

[Dr.Who]

............ermmm no it doesn't!!?? It mean that taxes are raised centrally and given to Heath Trusts to allocate to their regional hospitals, accident and emergency centers and community medical centers etc......

M'kay....one other thing Andy, no health system is perfect as you will recall.....


.............

The definition of socialism is government control of private industry not just government funding of private industry.

 

[chestnut]

There was a Dr. Muny on Glenn Beck.

He came up with a plan to offer his 7000 patients a monthly fee of 79.95 dollars and that would cover any visits during the month.

No Insurance needed. None. He could charge those fees because of the amount of money he would save from not having the beurocracy of the US government involved.

What a great model for doctors to bill their patients.

One little thing. The government is forcing him to close the program down.

What? Close the program down. Are they insane.

Isn't this the kind of example we want.

If Obama was really worried about health care for everyone why hasn't he tackled the insurance companies. That seems to be the place they need to start first.

What did people do before insurance.

 

[top gun]

I am glad to see that you recognized that they have health care.

Now we can talk about the real issue of how to we efficiently provide better health care for those who rely on emergency rooms.

But as long as people continue to repeat the lie that 47 mil don't have health care we won't even be discussing the right topic.

I suggest that we focus on getting them better jobs. And anyone who has a job that would allow him to get insurance but chooses not to can have any emergency room visits deducted from his future social security benefits.

Then anyone who owes social security money can have his social security taxes raised until it is paid back.

Well that's a VERY bizarre, I guess Republicant way, to look at it?

Yes they do have healthcare at it's most costly extreme... because the they can't get the necessary PREVENTATIVE CARE!

So implying those 47 mil are in great shape because they can get seen by a doctor when they are on death's door... that's pretty much the epitome of a fraudulent statement I think.

All the rest with the phantom "better" jobs and if they don't opt in to insurance that often isn't there anyway but if it was at whatever the cost...

well... it's... it's... it's Republicant bizarro land.

 

[chestnut]

Well that's a VERY bizarre, I guess Republicant way, to look at it?

Yes they do have healthcare at it's most costly extreme... because the they can't get the necessary PREVENTATIVE CARE!

So implying those 47 mil are in great shape because they can get seen by a doctor when they are on death's door... that's pretty much the epitome of a fraudulent statement I think.

All the rest with the phantom "better" jobs and if they don't opt in to insurance that often isn't there anyway but if it was at whatever the cost...

well... it's... it's... it's Republicant bizarro land.

Then there are those people who decide not to get health care because they would rather pay for other things.

The insurance companies and hospitals are 90% of the problem. But you don't see the Govt. going after them. I wonder why.

It seems that Obama has only one answer for everything. TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX

He really doesn't understand that no american feels under-taxed. Every day, it seems a new tax is created to pay for another program for something.

Crazy

 

[top gun]

Then there are those people who decide not to get health care because they would rather pay for other things.

The insurance companies and hospitals are 90% of the problem. But you don't see the Govt. going after them. I wonder why.

It seems that Obama has only one answer for everything. TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX

He really doesn't understand that no american feels under-taxed. Every day, it seems a new tax is created to pay for another program for something.

Crazy

You mean that health insurance that isn't even being offered anymore in a growing number of jobs because of it's prohibitive cost to the employer and the health insurance that if offered in many cases would cost so much that the families affected would have to choose between it and frivolous things like food, gas to get back & forth to work & utilities?

I gotcha... to HELL with them! And to bringing the costs of skyrocketing premiums down for everyone else... to HELL with them as well!

 

[chestnut]

You mean that health insurance that isn't even being offered anymore in a growing number of jobs because of it's prohibitive cost to the employer and the health insurance that if offered in many cases would cost so much that the families affected would have to choose between it and frivolous things like food, gas to get back & forth to work & utilities?

I gotcha... to HELL with them! And to bringing the costs of skyrocketing premiums down for everyone else... to HELL with them as well!

No one pays my health insurance but me. I am Self employed. Insurance is something I put on the top of the list. Others don't.

What I hear is that everyone has to sacrifice but the person being sacrificed for. They just get it for free.

And how many of those people have health problems because of personal choice -
smoking, bad eating habits, lifestyle. They want the government to take care of them.


But that's neither here nor there.

Like I said before, this needs to be about how Insurance companies and the government operate.

Fix the insurance, the fraud, the government waste, and the prices will come down and all will be fixed.

Instead fo taking on the insurance companies and hospitals... I guess Obama would rather take the easy way and steal from everyone than do the job he was sent to Washington for.

Oooh ooooh. Maybe he can fly around and campaign for it like he is doing for the economic plans.

 

[chestnut]

No one pays my health insurance but me. I am Self employed. Insurance is something I put on the top of the list. Others don't.

What I hear is that everyone has to sacrifice but the person being sacrificed for. They just get it for free.

And how many of those people have health problems because of personal choice -
smoking, bad eating habits, lifestyle. They want the government to take care of them.


But that's neither here nor there.

Like I said before, this needs to be about how Insurance companies and the government operate.

Fix the insurance, the fraud, the government waste, and the prices will come down and all will be fixed.

Instead fo taking on the insurance companies and hospitals... I guess Obama would rather take the easy way and steal from everyone than do the job he was sent to Washington for.

Oooh ooooh. Maybe he can fly around and campaign for it like he is doing for the economic plans.

Then there is the story of Dr. Muny who was trying to help.

Offering patients a flat fee of 79.00 per month for office visits - not limited.

The government told him to stop.

It's not about helping america. It's about control. Wake up libby's. It's about control.

 

[Andy]

Yes they do have healthcare at it's most costly extreme... because the they can't get the necessary PREVENTATIVE CARE!

Did you ever consider the reason they don't get "preventative care" is because they don't want it? You ASSUME they don't get it because they can't. What proof of this do you have?

At my company, they had a health day, where a guy from a local care facility, came in and offered free check ups. In a building with 100 people, 3 showed up. Why didn't the rest?

I met a lady the other day who's in her sixties, and never been to a doctor but 3 times in her life. She is fully covered by health insurance.

So what evidence do you offer?

So implying those 47 mil are in great shape because they can get seen by a doctor when they are on death's door... that's pretty much the epitome of a fraudulent statement I think.

They are on death's door? You realize that 32.1 Million of those uninsured live in households with incomes above $25K/year? 17.6 Million over $50K a year. 9.1 of the uninsured make over $75K/year.

At $25,000 a year, I can find a family health insurance plan for $170 a month, for me, my spouse, and a child.

Further, 11.3 Million of the uninsured qualify for government health programs, but choose to not enroll.

Moreover, we have nearly 12 million uninsured illegal immigrants.

So you try and make it out like all these poor helpless people who can't get health insurance... sorry. Not true.

Uninsured in the United States

All the rest with the phantom "better" jobs and if they don't opt in to insurance that often isn't there anyway but if it was at whatever the cost...

well... it's... it's... it's Republicant bizarro land.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that 17 million Americans earning over $50K can't afford basic family coverage? I can afford a family plan myself, and I only earned $21K last year at a dead end job. If I can do it, why can't other people?

And if you wish to complain about cost, do you realize the amount of taxes people in other countries pay for universal health care? You realize that most pay nearly 50% of their income in taxes?

Let's see, the family plan I outlined above is $170 a month. That's $2,040 a year.

Now, what is 50% of 21K? Which is more expensive?

 

[Andy]

You mean that health insurance that isn't even being offered anymore in a growing number of jobs because of it's prohibitive cost to the employer and the health insurance that if offered in many cases would cost so much that the families affected would have to choose between it and frivolous things like food, gas to get back & forth to work & utilities?

I gotcha... to HELL with them! And to bringing the costs of skyrocketing premiums down for everyone else... to HELL with them as well!

The reason for skyrocketing costs, in part is due to medicare which doesn't cover the cost of treatment.

See, you support reducing insurance cost, by skyrocketing taxation costs. How much are you helping people by doubling their taxes, and cutting their insurance rates?

Is $170 a month worse than 50% of your income in taxes?

The only good thing about this plan is, I know you, Top Gun, will pay for everyone else's health care. The poor can't pay for it, so the government is going to tax you. That, at least, makes me happy that your policies will come back on your head.

 

[top gun]

No one pays my health insurance but me. I am Self employed. Insurance is something I put on the top of the list. Others don't.

What I hear is that everyone has to sacrifice but the person being sacrificed for. They just get it for free.

And how many of those people have health problems because of personal choice -
smoking, bad eating habits, lifestyle. They want the government to take care of them.


But that's neither here nor there.

Like I said before, this needs to be about how Insurance companies and the government operate.

Fix the insurance, the fraud, the government waste, and the prices will come down and all will be fixed.

Instead fo taking on the insurance companies and hospitals... I guess Obama would rather take the easy way and steal from everyone than do the job he was sent to Washington for.

Oooh ooooh. Maybe he can fly around and campaign for it like he is doing for the economic plans.

I've been able to pay off my house recently... so I could say I really don't see why people are having any problem with mortgages or financing... but that would be disingenuous of me because "my" being able to do something has no correlation to any other person's situation.

The fact is if there is a system, like healthcare, that is very necessary but becoming a real serious problem we should try and fix it. The answer surely isn't don't really do anything. Don't regulate it and don't allow people who are injured because of the poor administration of it to have ant recourse.

This unholy forced alliance between insurance companies & the healthcare industry is in some ways a business issue with a "GREED"factor embedded in it much like the housing & financial systems did... AND WE ALL NOW SEE WHERE THAT HAS LED US UNDER BUSH!

However I've said from the start that it may be possible to do something other than a complete nationalized healthcare system... possibly a combination of both a private & government system.

As far as your "fix"... it's not one. Fraud investigations while they should of course be done are costly they often become more of a break even proposition than a real windfall. And the government isn't the problem because this is currently a "PRIVATELY OPERATED FOR PROFIT" business model.

But what is crystal clear is SOMETHING MAJOR has to change and the insurance companies will never do it on their own. I applaud President Obama for trying hard to break the downward cycle the healthcare industry is in and I assume that's why by vast majority both businesses and the healthcare industry itself is promoting CHANGE!


As far as President Obama "flying around". It's a very good thing we have a President who cares and is taking the new ideas directly to the American people. That's who elected him... that's the American way!

 

[Pandora]

The reason for skyrocketing costs, in part is due to medicare which doesn't cover the cost of treatment.

See, you support reducing insurance cost, by skyrocketing taxation costs. How much are you helping people by doubling their taxes, and cutting their insurance rates?

Is $170 a month worse than 50% of your income in taxes?

The only good thing about this plan is, I know you, Top Gun, will pay for everyone else's health care. The poor can't pay for it, so the government is going to tax you. That, at least, makes me happy that your policies will come back on your head.

I bet if we got rid of the attorneys suing over everything the cost of medical would go down. I think they call it tort reform? I cant prove it but I think its the reason doctors have to cost so much. What do you think Andy?

 

[top gun]

Did you ever consider the reason they don't get "preventative care" is because they don't want it? You ASSUME they don't get it because they can't. What proof of this do you have?

At my company, they had a health day, where a guy from a local care facility, came in and offered free check ups. In a building with 100 people, 3 showed up. Why didn't the rest?

I met a lady the other day who's in her sixties, and never been to a doctor but 3 times in her life. She is fully covered by health insurance.

So what evidence do you offer?

They are on death's door? You realize that 32.1 Million of those uninsured live in households with incomes above $25K/year?

At $25,000 a year, I can find a family health insurance plan for $170 a month, for me, my spouse, and a child.

First off... in the past you've already told us you make 13K per year Andy.

The very fact that you at a blistering 13K per year salary think people making 25K per year are rolling in extra money to pay for things other than rent, food, utilities, basic car expenses and gasoline is... well... just AMAZING!!!

We can and must make changes in our healthcare system. Both business and the healthcare industry itself have even agreed on that.