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"Helping" the Poor?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Old_Trapper70, May 1, 2016.

  1. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/opinion/sunday/the-hypocrisy-of-helping-the-poor.html?src=me&_r=0

    No, oddly enough, China has been enriched by American-supplied jobs, making most of the destined-for-the-dump merchandise you find on store shelves all over America, every piece of plastic you can name, as well as Apple products, Barbie dolls or Nike LeBron basketball shoes retailed in the United States for up to $320 a pair. “The uplifting of impoverished people” was one of the reasons Phil Knight, Nike’s co-founder, gave in 1998 for moving his factories out of the United States.

    The Chinese success, helped by American investment, is perhaps not astonishing after all; it has coincided with a large number of Americans’ being put out of work and plunged into poverty.

    <snip>

    To me, globalization is the search for a new plantation, and cheaper labor; globalization means that, by outsourcing, it is possible to impoverish an American community to the point where it is indistinguishable from a hard-up town in the dusty heartland of a third world country.

    <snip>

    The strategy of getting rich on cheap labor in foreign countries while offering a sop to America’s poor with charity seems to me a wicked form of indirection. If these wealthy chief executives are such visionaries, why don’t they understand the simple fact that what people want is not a handout along with the uplift ditty but a decent job?

    Some companies have brought manufacturing jobs back to the United States, a move called “reshoring,” but so far this is little more than a gesture. It seems obvious that executives of American companies should invest in the Deep South as they did in China. If this modest proposal seems an outrageous suggestion, to make products for Nike, Apple, Microsoft and others in the South, it is only because the American workers would have to be paid fairly. Perhaps some chief executives won’t end up multibillionaires as a result, but neither will they have to provide charity to lift Americans out of poverty.
     
  2. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    However, you could argue that if jobs had stayed in the US, then Chinese people would have no jobs. Chinese are human beings too and desire to live the best. Do you think there could have been a third way where China could have rose out of the third world while America could have kept jobs?
     
  3. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    So, the American worker had to give up his security just so the Chinese could be made less insecure, and the wealthy could gain more wealth. Almost rational.
     
  4. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    No, I'm not really saying that. I'm only saying that Chinese people want jobs just like Americans do. However, for them to gain jobs, Americans have to lose jobs. Therefore, it seems like some kind of fight for survival.
     
  5. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that what I said: "Americans have to lose jobs"?

    Let the Chinese gov't provide the jobs, or set up a system to where they can actually create jobs. However, a couple of points here. In order for an American company to operate in China they have to give up a certain amount of control to the Chinese, and any technology developed in China automatically becomes the property of China. When Clinton sold China the dual purpose high speed computers that Bush41 had classified so they could not be sold, he also gave IBM the ability to teach the Chinese how to use them. From this sprung the hacking ability of the Chinese. And as more computers were built in China, reverse engineering gave the Chinese our technology. One could make the same argument for many of our fields that were once superior to that of the Chinese.

    Without globalization China would still be a third world country, not one that is challenging our market superiority, and building up a military that some say is now superior to ours. Without the US there would not be the growing number of billionaires as there are in China.
     
  6. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    Why shouldn't China have a strong military? It's a big country. Again, it seems like an attempt to say that the US should dominate the world, in other words a form of US supremacy, even over nations as populated and large as the US.

    Also, China wants to rule Asia, to the dismay of the two Koreas, Vietnam etc.. However, isn't the same thing that the US has always done in relation to Latin America?
     
  7. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    As to the second part of your question, not at all. How has the US reigned over Latin, and South America?

    China not only wants to reign over SE Asia, it does want world domination. How you can compare a Communist system of the world to what America has to offer is quite well beyond me.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/23/china-martin-jacques-economics

    Of course, not all agree:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/44007044
     
  8. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    You have a point. However, it's also true so many Americans won't get an education past high school, not even a vocational one. Some college majors and vocational trades could easily keep people out of poverty, assuming people were willing to study.
     
  9. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Problem there is the number of college graduates "flipping burgers", or driving truck. Many are working two, or three, jobs to support their families. Then too, the cost of education as compared to the return due to cheap wages here, makes the prospect of getting a higher education not feasible. And one has to realize that while jobs are being created, there are not enough of them. If one looks at the market, more jobs are being created by foreign investors, not American investors.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/re...creating-jobs-and-narrowing-the-trade-deficit
     
  10. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    The job prospects depend on which major or vocational trade your going into. Colleges consider students mature adults, and expect them to research the job market before making a major. Also, truck drivers make good money compared to burger flippers. Truck drivers make a lot of money. In fact, even the ones driving a local route make a decent living.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  11. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't about the particular trade, it was about the skill level needed. Imagine a person who spent 8 years in college getting their Doctorate, and then end up driving a truck. Additionally, the truck driver of today makes the same as he did in the 70's.

    However, not everyone has the skills needed for to days advancement in technology. And as we move more of the lower skilled jobs offshore we losr that job markey for those who need it.
     
  12. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    Truck drivers still make a crap load of money. I haven't seen that thier wages have went down. If someone who has a doctorate is driving a truck, he hasn's lost out wage wise.

    Of course, as you were saying, there seems to be a battle between the tech haves and have nots. Those without tech knowledge are resentful of outsourcing and whatnot, because they need factory, mining jobs etc.. to survive.
     
  13. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Even the "tech wise" oppose outsourcing. Some 500,000 of our techies have lost their jobs due ot outsourcing, and H1B visa programs.

    Just one example:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...t-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0

    Here is another one:

    http://www.dailynews.com/business/20140103/us-workers-lose-as-firms-cheat-on-tech-immigration-visas
     
  14. Jason76

    Jason76 Active Member

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    Forcing someone to train his/her replacement is like when drug dealers force people they kill to dig their own grave.

    I guess the debate involves whether or not they're really is a shortage of US tech workers vs the fact hiring East Indians is simply much cheaper, though not patriotic. I do know companies want math majors to work for them after graduation, and they're even willing to pay their tuition. However, as you might expect, fewer people major in math due to the difficulty, or perhaps choose another major due to failure.

    However, it is interesting to note that a lot of the visa stuff by companies is illegal, so if they were following the rules, more American jobs would be saved.
     
  15. pwarbi

    pwarbi Active Member

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    Here in the UK, a lot of the major companies have outsourced their customer service representatives to places like India, all because it's cheaper.

    It's no better, in fact it's a million times worse, but they've saved money by doing it, and unfortunately I think that's all businesses are concerned about, no matter what they might say.
     
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