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If Abortion becomes illegal in the US

Discussion in 'House of Debates' started by Coyote, Jul 14, 2007.

  1. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Coyote died for your sheep
    You will, most likely, have a great many more unwanted pregnancies carried to term by poor women.

    If Palerider is right about the Pill being an aborticant (and I disagree since it is only a remote chance and making the womb inhospitable to life is not the same as forcing that life from it) - you will be removing a major and highly reliable form of birth control for women. You can only HOPE that something else will be developed that is as safe and reliable (and look how long it took to develop safety in the pill).

    You will have a lot of children born to people who can least afford them and are least likely to take proper prenatal care to insure a healthy child. You will also have a higher percentage of severely disabled children as well.

    Paternity is still sketchy and men are still far more easily able to avoid the responsibilities of paternity then women - that's just a fact of life.

    You will still have pregnant teenagers - possibly a lot more, since the Pill will be outlawed - who will drop out of school and quite possibly (given the difficulties of affordable childcare, likelihood low wage jobs, etc.) end up on public welfare rolls.

    Women who have been raped being forced to bear the consequences of that rape...with what help? She sure as hell is not going to want to marry a rapist or want him in her child's life, assuming he is even caught and convicted.

    Once again, women will likely be stigmatized by out of wedlock pregnancies - something men have never been stigmatized for.

    Please add to the list - I'm sure there are more issues.

    So - what changes in law and society to you envision to accommodate the massive change that outlawing abortion (and the Pill) will cause?
     
  2. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a reason that a drug can't be developed that would simply prevent ovulation. If abortion is no longer legal, there will be a profit motive for developing the "perfect" contraceptive.

    Do you really believe that parent's financial position or the fact that the child "MIGHT" not be well taken care of is a valid reason to kill?

    I have no problem at all with lowering the boom on deadbeat dads. If the child is theirs, they can be made to shoulder part of the burden or live in abject poverty for the remainder of their lives.

    Are any of these reasons valid reasons to kill an innocent human being?

    There is a party that deserves the full force of the law directed at them, but the one you are talking about killing isn't that one. She can certainly give up the child to someone who will take care of it.

    Is that a valid reason to kill? Maybe men will think twice if they know that there is nearly a 100% chance that they will be made to financer their share of the consequences of their actions.

    By all means add to the list but at the end of each addition, the one making the addition should state whether or not he or she believes that the reason is a valid reason to kill another human being and offer up an argument to justify that position.


    Women are a powerful force in the political world now. If abortion is no longer an option, terrible pressure will be placed on men to share the cost of their children. Pressure both political and financial will be laid on pharmaceutical companies to develop better contraceptives. When the fact of really facing the consequences of one's actions sinks in, I'll wager that the numbers of casual sexual encounters will drop and the incidence of STD's will drop accordingly. Face it Coyote, nothing but good can come from people facing the consequences of their actions.
     
  3. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

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  4. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    The fact is that if you make abortion illegal, it WILL still happen, but unsafely, in backstreet clinics.
     
  5. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    That is the lamest of all arguments 9sublime. Tell me something that has been stopped by making it illegal. Following that logic, there should be no law against anything because someone is going to do it anyway.
     
  6. TruthAboveAll

    TruthAboveAll Active Member

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  7. top gun

    top gun New Member

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    And of course you are correct.

    The "then there should never be any laws if you don't pass my restriction" that you're hearing is skewed to be self serving.

    There are all different kinds of laws and restrictions that conform to differing circumstances.

    Terminating a pregnancy is not the same thing as killing a newborn baby no matter how many times someone says the words KILL KILL KILL and you can obviously see that there's a much deeper ulterior motive here when you see posts against even the birth control pill.

    This is very similar to the argument against embryonic stem cell research in a misguided attempt to force the same legal grounds on even microscopic life as a walking talking human being.

    I applaud the fact you see the reality of the situation.





     
  8. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    And killing an old man is not the same thing as killing a newborn, and killing a teenager isn't the same as killing an embryo and killing a man isn't the same as killing a woman. They are all different, but they are all killing a living human being. If you can demonstrate that they (unborns) are not human beings, then your argument has merit. If you can't then why bother making it in the first place since it is completely invalid.

    Again I challenge you to provide some credible science that states that the offspring of two human beings is EVER anything but a human being.
     
  9. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Palerider, I am not listing these issues as valid or invalid "reasons to kill". They are real issues. I would seriously like to know how or if they would ever be addressed should abortion become illegal.
     
  10. Rick

    Rick Active Member

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    OK, how about just illegalizing the 99% that aren't the result of rape or incest?

    So what? Bank robbing is illegal, but banks are still robbed. A woman getting an abortion in an unsafe (as if there were such a thing as a "safe" abortion) backstreet clinic could die, as do bank robbers frequently in the course of trying to rob a bank. Moral to the story? Don't break the law, you might end up dead.
     
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  11. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    Its hardly a lame argument. You are trying to ban abortion because of the sanctity of life, but if you ban it, children will die and so will their mothers in unsafe abortions.
     
  12. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to ban abortion because of the sanctity of life. I have given you my reasons before and you continue to come back to this fraudulent appeal to emotion as if we have never spoken about my position on the issue.

    Let me tell you again. I want to see abortion banned because it is unconstitutional. The 14th amendment of our constitution protects the lives of human beings until such time as they denied that right via due process of the law.

    If law were written and legislated by the representatives of the people that specifically denied the right of the unborn to live until such time as they are born, this argument would not exist (in this form anyway).

    Now I have explained this to you multiple times. If you ever make the emotional claim again that I am trying to ban abortion because of the "sanctity" of life, I am going to bring back multiple posts where I have explained my position to you and charge you publicly with deliberately misrepresenting my position (lying)

    And once again, you make a pitiful argument. You claim that if abortion is banned, that children will die. Hello? 9sublime? Children are already dying in the millions. Every time an abortion is performed a child dies. And I am not particularly concerned about the safety of a woman who sets out to kill a child any more than I am concerned for the safety of arsonists, wife beaters, robbers, or any other lawbreakers.
     
  13. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you can never charge Pale with being emotional--he's as cold as a witch's heart!
     
  14. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    The moment abortion is made illegal, conservatives will say "Mission Accomplished" and guess what that means...
    No further attempts to get to the root of the problem and actually reduce the reasons for abortions and thus, the actual number of abortions. Logistically the anti-abortion laws will be nearly impossible to enforce.
    Plus it doesn't exactly do society any service to have a lot of pregnancies that are essentially punishments... Not good for a kid to be raised in such a way.
    Not good for kids who are not affordable to suffer through life and die in a way other than abortion.

    True, None of these arguments make abortion justifiable (except in certain cases)... but the fact remains that once the pro-lifers get the law they want, they will be able to blissfully ignore the abortions that go on underground and feel better by knowing "justice is served" if the offender is caught.
    But overall the number of abortions won't be affected and the consequences of abortion will be worse.

    That's the problem I have with a lot of policies. It's a band-aid. We'll put it on and ignore the infection that's killing us.
    I suggest we work on the infection first.
     
  15. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

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    How? They're is no way to prevent girls from dropping their panties without thinking of the consequences. With condoms, the pill, sex ed, etc. there's not much more we can do.
     
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