If Abortion becomes illegal in the US

[USMC the Almighty]

Like I said before my friend... Get back to me when they do reverse themselves. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

First of all, what does this have to do with anything? I like you top gun even though we don't see eye to eye, but you seem to have a habit of allowing polls and other people's opinions to govern your own and you're too smart for that.

Secondly, more people identify themselves as "pro-life" than 15 years ago so this movement is growing.

 

[palerider]

I believe they based the decision in Roe vs. Wade on the 9th Amendment.

Actually, the justices referred to the 14th, and the 9th. Neither of which can be construed to give a woman the right to kill her child. Justice blackmund also stated in the decision with regard to the 14th amendment that "the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense". Had this decision been thoroughly researched as suggested by top gun, he would have realized that even at that time, unborns had beem treated in certain tort and negligence law as a person. His reference to persons who were less than whole persons harkens back to the bad old days of Dred Scott.

 

[palerider]

Don't have to show it to you in the Constitution. The United States Supreme Court has stated for decades... abortion is Constitutional. They know better than I.

They have reversed themselves no less than 200 times. So much for knowing better than anyone.

 

[top gun]

First of all, what does this have to do with anything? I like you top gun even though we don't see eye to eye, but you seem to have a habit of allowing polls and other people's opinions to govern your own and you're too smart for that.

Secondly, more people identify themselves as "pro-life" than 15 years ago so this movement is growing.

I appreciate the compliment but the truth is I get so tired of the "pro-life" is on the march speech and the Roe v. Wade is going to get overturned BS that sometimes it's just easier to show a recent poll or to take my own personal opinion out of it and show a quote from some other credible established source. That kinda leaves it at... there ya go... believe what you want.

So you have to understand when you arguing for a womens right to have control over her own body and everything contained therein and the other side is trying to do the "I'm speaking for God" thing or tries to say that abortion is not Constitutional... when it's been judged legal and Constitutional for decades now... I just throw some facts, opinions and statistics out there so the other folks reading it know. At that point I'm not even trying to influence the original poster anymore... they're stuck and I'm leaving 'em there.

As far as the "surge" in pro-life... still about 65% don't want Roe overturned.

And truthfully, and you know this to be true, even if the biggest Republican neo-con high court in history overturned Roe it would then go back to the states and they would then decide and it would all just turn into a matter of travel. Then exactly like with the North/South Civil Rights struggle that would only energize & galvanize groups together to demand pro-choice legislation across the whole country. This Genie will never go back in the bottle my friend. Women just won't allow it!

 

[top gun]

They have reversed themselves no less than 200 times. So much for knowing better than anyone.

I said better than I. Hit me up when they reverse Roe.

 

[9sublime]

Are you arguing that we should drop the idea that all rights are secondary to the right to live? If you don't have the right to live, exactly what value do any other rights you claim have?

No, I'm just saying that just because the constitution says so isnt a reason on its own.

 

[palerider]

sometimes it's just easier to show a recent poll or to take my own personal opinion out of it and show a quote from some other credible established source. That kinda leaves it at... there ya go... believe what you want.

A quote from a journalist and accountant is not a credible source when the question is biological in nature.

 

[palerider]

No, I'm just saying that just because the constitution says so isnt a reason on its own.

The constitution does not "give" us our right to live, or any other rights. The constitution acknowledges our natural rights and establishes a government whose primary role is to protect those rights.

All other rights are secondary to the right to live because without that one, any others aren't worth a hill of beans.

 

[palerider]

Frame polls in an honest manner and you get results that look more like this:

Abortion should be...

Generally available 35%

Avail., with more limits 23%

Illegal except rape/incest/or save woman’s life 31%

Not permitted at all 9%

Don’t know 2%

The vast majority don't, and never have favored abortion on demand but prefer limiting the availability of abortion. You can quote polls till the cows come home that don't offer the possibility of terminating if the mother's life or health are in danger to the polees and you won't be a bit closer to the truth than you are right now.

 

[top gun]

A quote from a journalist and accountant is not a credible source when the question is biological in nature.

Well of course they are. All perspectives are important. Even your perspective is important. In the end it's the people who get to decide what is allowable in a democracy. To know what people believe is in the overall best interest in a certain situation or what should take precedent over what you go to the people to find out. I guess you could just pull a guess out of a hat but I think polling and voting are a far superior method of tabulation.

I've never heard anyone say that terminating a pregnancy isn't terminating a pregnancy. Everyone knows what that means. The thing is most people can make the distinction between someone just raving KILL KILL KILL... even the birth control pill is KILLING... it's ALL KILLING... blah, blah, blah... force those pregnancies through! And all the many factors and the timing involved which have been addressed now several times.

Maybe in your world the majority doesn't rule if you don't agree with the outcome. I myself believe in democracy and I will continue to try and stand up for the women. I feel it's the right thing to do. Discount it, insult it, it doesn't matter.

I believe choice should be left up to the woman in question, her family and her doctor... not you, not me, not the government. And a safe & available medical procedure is necessary so women are never driven into back alley butcher shops again to do what they have always done and will always do.

On this I'm in the majority and yes... it is somewhat reassuring to know that the United States Supreme Court and a majority of Americans agree.

 

[palerider]

. In the end it's the people who get to decide what is allowable in a democracy.

You are batting 1000. You don't seem to be able to get anyting right. We don't live in a democracy. Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Every single point you have attempted to make has been based on information that is simply wrong and yet, you hold your position. Talk about a position of faith.

By the way. The situation, as it stands, is not the product of democracy. It is the result of 9 unelected, unaccountable, black robed judges who made the decision for everyone. Since you bloviate incessantly about democracy, you should be howling even louder than I do about the decision to make abortion legal. That is a more subtle hypocricy in your overwhelmingly hypocritcal position.

 

[vyo476]

You are batting 1000. You don't seem to be able to get anyting right. We don't live in a democracy. Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

...and in a democratic republic the 2 wolves and the sheep vote on who decides what's for dinner.

 

[Coyote]

Ok, so abortion is already illegal except in cases where the mother's life is in danger.

How will we, as a society deal with the problems generated by this? Will we be compassionate or will we just say screw it - she should of kept her legs closed, it's her problem now?

 

[palerider]

Ok, so abortion is already illegal except in cases where the mother's life is in danger.

How will we, as a society deal with the problems generated by this? Will we be compassionate or will we just say screw it - she should of kept her legs closed, it's her problem now?

We don't do that now. What makes you think we would start when abortion becomes illegal. Do you think we will cancel all of the social programs already in existence?

 

[palerider]

...and in a democratic republic the 2 wolves and the sheep vote on who decides what's for dinner.

We don't live in a democratic republic either. In a democratic republic, a dictator tells the wolves and the sheep how they will vote.