Ignore This Thread

Gov't are elected to "care for a population". Why do you think the population analyses the policies that the gov't has and how they affect them and the world at large??

Governments are not elected to "care" for a population. They are elected to maintain some form of stability by enforcing laws and protecting the borders.

At best you can argue maybe governments are elected to "represent" people, but even then it is debatable if that is really their function in today's day and age.
 
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OK, have ANY of you read the Constitution, or are you ALL Canadians? Show me ONE place where it gives the government the Right to have ANYTHING to do with healthcare!!

Look, in case you've missed it, there's only ONE place in the Constitution where ANY of your Rights are in ANY way dependent upon another persons time and/or efforts, and that's in your Right to a JURY TRIAL. In that case, you DO have the Right to impose on the time and efforts of at least 12 of your fellow citizens, and I think we all know how many people are lined up just WAITING for an opportunity to give their fellow Americans some of their time.:rolleyes:

Each and every one of us only have a very finite number of hours on this Earth, and when you assert some fabled "right" to healthcare, you are claiming a right to a whole BUTTLOAD of other peoples time, energy, years of hard work and dedication to learn their profession. And you don't even want to pay them???? SCREW THAT!!! If you're too lazy or broke to buy your own insurance, well, IT SUCKS TO BE YOU, but guess what, in America you can STILL go to the hospital, and be treated. THAT'S RIGHT! It's ILLEGAL for a hospital in America to refuse to treat you because you can't afford to pay for it! Now, you may have to sit in the waiting room for a few hours and cool your heels while PAYING customers go ahead of you, but think of it as motivation to get off your DEAD LAZY BUTTS and earn enough to buy your OWN insurance!!
 
ROFLMAO!!! right.. I hate to say it .. but unfortunately corprations are showing us that they don't value us as customers since they cannot regulate themselves to lower costs.

I disagree with this assessment.

We have no one else to lean on to get the job done..

Again.. if a better idea exisists .. I'm all ears.. hell .. I am a Ron Paul supporter and I still don't think that freeing up the market will encourage the corps to "do the right thing"

Opening up everything to the free market will not "encourage" corporations to do anything, it will force them to do it. That is because new competition will enter the market place and create efficiency which will drive prices down as people are able to specialize their resources.

There will be no protectionism that breeds an overall lack of efficiency, which will benefit all consumers.
 
OK, have ANY of you read the Constitution, or are you ALL Canadians? Show me ONE place where it gives the government the Right to have ANYTHING to do with healthcare!!

Look, in case you've missed it, there's only ONE place in the Constitution where ANY of your Rights are in ANY way dependent upon another persons time and/or efforts, and that's in your Right to a JURY TRIAL. In that case, you DO have the Right to impose on the time and efforts of at least 12 of your fellow citizens, and I think we all know how many people are lined up just WAITING for an opportunity to give their fellow Americans some of their time.:rolleyes:

Each and every one of us only have a very finite number of hours on this Earth, and when you assert some fabled "right" to healthcare, you are claiming a right to a whole BUTTLOAD of other peoples time, energy, years of hard work and dedication to learn their profession. And you don't even want to pay them???? SCREW THAT!!! If you're too lazy or broke to buy your own insurance, well, IT SUCKS TO BE YOU, but guess what, in America you can STILL go to the hospital, and be treated. THAT'S RIGHT! It's ILLEGAL for a hospital in America to refuse to treat you because you can't afford to pay for it! Now, you may have to sit in the waiting room for a few hours and cool your heels while PAYING customers go ahead of you, but think of it as motivation to get off your DEAD LAZY BUTTS and earn enough to buy your OWN insurance!!


just for you we can make it a amendment then...the right can try for one to prove they hate gays, we can push for one to help americans....

and what a deep thought, its illegal for a hospitial to not treat you...well screw it lets all drop our health care then and just make them do it....who do you think pays for that ? thats right everone else.
 
OK, have ANY of you read the Constitution, or are you ALL Canadians? Show me ONE place where it gives the government the Right to have ANYTHING to do with healthcare!!

Look, in case you've missed it, there's only ONE place in the Constitution where ANY of your Rights are in ANY way dependent upon another persons time and/or efforts, and that's in your Right to a JURY TRIAL. In that case, you DO have the Right to impose on the time and efforts of at least 12 of your fellow citizens, and I think we all know how many people are lined up just WAITING for an opportunity to give their fellow Americans some of their time.:rolleyes:

Each and every one of us only have a very finite number of hours on this Earth, and when you assert some fabled "right" to healthcare, you are claiming a right to a whole BUTTLOAD of other peoples time, energy, years of hard work and dedication to learn their profession. And you don't even want to pay them???? SCREW THAT!!! If you're too lazy or broke to buy your own insurance, well, IT SUCKS TO BE YOU, but guess what, in America you can STILL go to the hospital, and be treated. THAT'S RIGHT! It's ILLEGAL for a hospital in America to refuse to treat you because you can't afford to pay for it! Now, you may have to sit in the waiting room for a few hours and cool your heels while PAYING customers go ahead of you, but think of it as motivation to get off your DEAD LAZY BUTTS and earn enough to buy your OWN insurance!!

Fed, did you ever watch the old Twilight Zone’s? There is one that really reminds me of what is going on today.

It was the one where the teen age girl whose mother died had to pick between two types of women’s bodies. Everyone pressed her to pick the taller good looking model or the shorter girl next door model. They of course were the only two choices, and everyone had to pick… so we can be the same… so there can be equality…

She fought hard to not have to pick either of them, she kept asking what is wrong with me the way I am..

Eventually she picked the girl next door type under pressure from the government, her father and friends. That is how it ended.


I think of the taller good looking model as communism and the girl next door model as socialism, and the girl who does not want to pick between either of them, she just wanted to be what she was…. That is America.

The world is full of countries, all of them are model A or model B and I feel like we as a nation are being forced to pick one of the models, its not ok for even one country to just be what they are. We must be like everyone else or everyone else is going to pressure us until we do.

The constitution does not matter to these people, what matters is being exactly like everyone else. Eyes wondering to Europe and wondering why we can’t look like them, be like them, act like them. And there will be no rest in this nation until we finally cave and become just like everyone else. I am not even sure at this point if it is possible to reason with them or compromise.

This was probably a sucky analogy but.. it’s the one that came to mind :)
 
Bad thread title. I did exactly what it said and completely ignored it till I realized people were posting replies.

access to fast medical help in reatil stores...what a great idea ...to bad we have that? Needless to say this part of his plan is already in place and while nice, its not going to fix the health care system. And it was also very limited in what you could get done there.

This is a typical political tactic of proposing things the free market has already created and claiming credit. Al Gore / Internet.

his plan for caping lawsuits...it could be fine, but what cap? and who decideds what is a bad lawsuit? I thoght we had as that judical system in place that was suppose to do that . I could be fine with a cap, but I question if its realy the issue...or if insurance companys are just useing it as a excuse to rape more profits from Dr's and Medical professionals.

Insurance companies compete for business. They are not going to raise their rates, unless everyone is raising their rates. If everyone is raising their rates, there is a reason for it. Different states have different litigation restrictions. For example, Florida has horrible lawsuit happy legislation. As such malpractice insurance there can be as high as $277,000/yr, where as Oklahoma, the average is about $17K.

"encuraging states to lower costs" what a great plan...tell states to try to lower costs....Im not sure what the states are going to do, but lets put it all on them...after all the republicans have been good at that before...NO Child Lift Behind...here states do this....and no will will not fund it we just shifted the problem to you and said look what we did....

Actually, to some extent, I agree with this. Under the Constitution, the federal government has no legal right to deal with this issue. All rights not explicitly stated as domain of the Federal government, are reserved for the states, as it should be. The Federal should have no dealings with education either. It's up to the state if they wish to implement, or improve.

That said, the Federal government is what is causing most of the problems in the health care industry, and as such, they maybe should try and fix it, but rather stop harming it by undoing the legislation that has caused the problems.

ReImporting drugs.....Both McCain and Obama talked about this...my question why should we have to reimport them? If they can send teh drug to the UK or Canada and then send them back to here cheaper....then something is wrong with our system or they are just raping us ...Fix that and then we dont need ti Re import.. and that should be even cheaper....I put my money on the rape part,,,,but im sure its a combo of factors.

I do not understand this either, unless it refers to generic drugs. Generic drugs present a specific problem. One company spends millions creating a drug. Then when they finely come out with the drug, someone copies it and undercuts them by a ton. The result is one of two things. One, they raise the price of other drugs not yet copied, in order to cover the cost of R&D of the copied one. Two, they reduce spending on R&D, which results in few new better drugs being produced. In either case, we the consumer lose, either in the short term by high priced drugs which do not have alternatives, or long term by drugs that will never be created because of lower R&D funding.

the smoking thing....realy people dont know there are programs? Cuz I see adds all the time for patches, clinics, Blue Cross has a program, ext....here in MN we have a new program in place..called you cant smoke at the bar...I know many who just stopped after that....

Reducing smoking will not help anyway. That's conventional wisdom that fails the reality test. The information suggests that smokers die quicker, resulting in less of a drain on health care costs.

Basicly his whole plan, let insurance compeat more, and thats it....there is not much for compeating for plans as I will just guess 90% of coverage by Americans is picked in this way....my work offers this...soi that is what I have....it sucks but thats what they offer and I am not going to pay even more for some other plan that they dont help cover the cost on, I cant afford that.

First, we need to break the link between work and insurance. When the insurance company feels they have you locked in, they don't have to worry about competition that much. You work for ZZZ corp, you have to go with us.

Second, we have to reduce taxes so people have more money to spend on the insurance they need.

Third, we need to stop Medicare and Medicaid from dictating prices to health care providers. When Medicare says we are only paying $300 for this $1,000 dollar treatment, that cost is passed on to paying customers, thus Insurance companies, thus our premiums.

Its not just the goverment says here this is yoru coverage,,,,but it offers evryone a chance to buy coverage, and useing the power sams club ( aka massive amount of people and thus power) get basic coverage at a lower price to anyone. And credits to help those who still fall below the set standard income to help them make sure they get coverage. And Coverage for kids I think needs to be a major focus...kids dont have a choice in coverage , they ccant choose to get coverage , and should not be punished for the fact their parents chose not to, or just simply cant. I think there is enough in the plan to try to push for them to compeate, reduce cost, and also ways for all familys to have a chance to get into a plan , and not have that plan tied to your job. Health care being tied to jobs to me, is a Giant Shackle on the leg of workers that makes movment in the job market harder and hard, even more so for someone with kids, or a illness already.

Its a huge plan, and I am sure not all of it would pass, but I think its the best blueprint to start with, and after making some moves to get a few moderate republicans to it, would be the best plan by far..

Bad plan. It will become a major boondoggle and cost billions. Why do we Americans have to always learn obvious lessons the hard way? Why do we even have a history class in our schools when no one seems to learn anything from them?

How many times does socialism have to fail before we get that socialism fails? How many socialized health care systems the world over are in horrible condition, and yet we still want to try it here? We have Obama stand up and tell people what they want to hear, even though it has no chance of working, and we think it's a good plan?

VA Hospitals are socialized health care. They suck. Masshealth is a Mass-failure, with inadequate care, poor service, and long lines. Canadians are flying all over the planet to get health care, when they get free care at home, why? France is using medications that are 10 years old, and obsolete in the US, because their government won't pay for newer drugs. They don't even have the option. Brazil for a time, because hospital beds and space was so tight, they simply euthanized chronically ill patents when they needed the room.

We need to stop this stupidity that Government is going to 'fix' something. Government is the whole reason it's broke to begin with. You don't force hospitals to lower costs, that's a bad plan. Look at Canada with a national doctor shortage. Why? Because it's not worth practicing in Canada. Why do you think they spend so much less on health care? Because they don't pay their people much, and they leave and practice in the US.

We get this idea Government is going to lower health care cost. Maybe they will, but what will we lose in service? To get an MRI, the average Canadian waits months, sometimes a year. If your in pain, and told you might have cancer, and you know that every day you could be one step closer to being terminal, you want to wait a year to get an MRI?

But at least it will be cheaper or free to get the MRI to find out you waited too long to operate and now have only a few months to live.

Why can't we learn from the mistakes of others, without having to replicate them here? I just don't get it. Americans truly are stupid sometimes.
 
I disagree with this assessment.



Opening up everything to the free market will not "encourage" corporations to do anything, it will force them to do it. That is because new competition will enter the market place and create efficiency which will drive prices down as people are able to specialize their resources.

There will be no protectionism that breeds an overall lack of efficiency, which will benefit all consumers.

as it stands there is really only 3 major insurance companies in america that litterally hold a monopoly on healthcare.. alot of the costs asociated with what we pay in premiuns are due directly to their supposed 16 to 20 overhead costs. Considering the profits they are raking in with it (( and they must be because medicare claims only 1.3 precent overhead at best )) why haven't other companies stepped in to offer lower rates while streamlining their admin overhead?

If there is not legislation holding them up.. what would be the point of encouraging new insurance companies if they would only see the potiental of raising overhead costs on the admin side to match their much larger counter-parts in the industry? In the end .. the company is always worried about bottom-line profit and how much they can pull for shareholders.
 
Fed, did you ever watch the old Twilight Zone’s? There is one that really reminds me of what is going on today.

It was the one where the teen age girl whose mother died had to pick between two types of women’s bodies. Everyone pressed her to pick the taller good looking model or the shorter girl next door model. They of course were the only two choices, and everyone had to pick… so we can be the same… so there can be equality…

She fought hard to not have to pick either of them, she kept asking what is wrong with me the way I am..

Eventually she picked the girl next door type under pressure from the government, her father and friends. That is how it ended.

(you always come up with most interesting points)
I remember that exact episode! I get the whole point completely.

Of course, honestly, if Socialism worked, I'd be for it. Who wouldn't? If it were possible for everyone to get great care, for zero expense, I'd be the first in line! In fact if everyone got a six figure income, and a house on the beach, with a hot tub in the back, and a luxury sports car... free from socialism, hey let's do it!

But unlike the Twilight Zone, where after choosing the body treatment, everyone looks great and attractive for life, at the loss of freedom and choice, in the real world you still lose freedom and choice, but the results are all crap.

You will still lose the freedom to pay for your health care, and ability to have private doctors, hospitals and insurance. However, in return you will get crap health care, long lines, poor service, and second rate treatment.

See the options are, we can get good, but possibly expensive health care for everyone who is willing to pay, with only those who refuse, getting second rate care, or we can have everyone get second rate care for free. Socialism never brings everyone UP to a high level, it drives everyone down to the same level of crap.

It's the same thing socialism does for every issue it's tried on. It doesn't lift everyone to wealth, it push everyone to poverty. Under socialism, 64% of China's population earned less than $1 a day. In Canada, it's not just the people who don't pay that have to wait, or get crappy second rate treatment, now it's everyone. Which is why those with money are willing to fly all the way to India to get surgeries and treatment.

But hey, we are America. We're stupidly arrogant. We can make socialism work here for sure. It might have failed 100% of time for the rest of the planet, but we can do anything here.

No, let's not learn from the past, yes let's ignore how it's failing everywhere else. Full speed ahead, let's jump off the rocky cliff that is Socialism. After all, we're greedy and shouldn't have to pay for anything we get. At least we'll all get the exact same quality of care...
 
That would be fine and dandy if healthcare was affordable for most lower to middle class people.. but the rise in healthcare costs are now dragging middle class familes into a lower class simply because their premiums are moving at a much larger rate then inflation.

On a person note.. its Bull**** that someone working a 40 hour week job while trying to go to school and has children is looking at literally a 3 to 400 dollar a month healthcare plan.. this is just unacceptable.. but this is where the market has taken us.

Capitalistic aproach to Healthcare is fine.. but not when only half of your country can afford it and the current trend shows further degradation and even less people being able to afford it in the coming years.

If free market Healthcare is the answer... why isn't it working right now?

and if Universal healthcare is so bad.. then why is France kicking our ever loving butts in health per person nation wide?

BTW Capitalism REQUIRES lower-class people .. should we honestly.. as humans .. say .. "sorry dude.. sucks to be you?" when the economy sours and inflation grows?


those are the questions I would like some answers on .. and not just " Constitution doesn't guarentee us aright" because the Constitution CAN be amended.. and for people like me.. concerned about rising costs .. I'm gonna do what I have to if even doing my best is not covering my medical bills.
 
(you always come up with most interesting points)
I remember that exact episode! I get the whole point completely.

Of course, honestly, if Socialism worked, I'd be for it. Who wouldn't? If it were possible for everyone to get great care, for zero expense, I'd be the first in line! In fact if everyone got a six figure income, and a house on the beach, with a hot tub in the back, and a luxury sports car... free from socialism, hey let's do it!

But unlike the Twilight Zone, where after choosing the body treatment, everyone looks great and attractive for life, at the loss of freedom and choice, in the real world you still lose freedom and choice, but the results are all crap.

You will still lose the freedom to pay for your health care, and ability to have private doctors, hospitals and insurance. However, in return you will get crap health care, long lines, poor service, and second rate treatment.

See the options are, we can get good, but possibly expensive health care for everyone who is willing to pay, with only those who refuse, getting second rate care, or we can have everyone get second rate care for free. Socialism never brings everyone UP to a high level, it drives everyone down to the same level of crap.

It's the same thing socialism does for every issue it's tried on. It doesn't lift everyone to wealth, it push everyone to poverty. Under socialism, 64% of China's population earned less than $1 a day. In Canada, it's not just the people who don't pay that have to wait, or get crappy second rate treatment, now it's everyone. Which is why those with money are willing to fly all the way to India to get surgeries and treatment.

But hey, we are America. We're stupidly arrogant. We can make socialism work here for sure. It might have failed 100% of time for the rest of the planet, but we can do anything here.

No, let's not learn from the past, yes let's ignore how it's failing everywhere else. Full speed ahead, let's jump off the rocky cliff that is Socialism. After all, we're greedy and shouldn't have to pay for anything we get. At least we'll all get the exact same quality of care...

Oh I am with you, it won’t work but trying to explain that, and also that we lose our individuality doesn’t matter to these people... No more than it mattered to the girl’s father or her friends in the episode. I kept thinking when I was a kid and saw that episode, why not let this girl be who she wants to be, it’s just her, it wont hurt anyone.... but it would have. It would have threatened the whole core of the community she lived in. If she got to be individual then someone else might want it, then another and another till they had no power over the people. The world is desperate to make us like them. As long as we are a free people we are a threat to the way the world wants and expects us to be.

Once the girl caved and picked body style number 2, there was no going back.....once we cave and pick socialism over communism there is no going back, at best only forward to the more radical communism........ We are the light that suppressed nations look to. That sounds really arrogant I suppose but I know that it’s true, and as long as that light is shining it makes it hard to keep people down and in the box that was special made for them
 
Bad thread title.
With just one exception, thats seems to be a popular sentiment....

On another forum, a thread by the same title holds the record for replies. Had I named the thread something related to Healthcare, I think people would have ignored the thread - Like people do with most issue based threads.
------------------------------

How many of you have Car Insurance? Does it cover oil changes, belts, hoses, tire replacement, gasoline etc. along with all the regularly scheduled maintenance? Of course it doesn't... if it did, it would be too expensive to afford.

Thats what has happened with our healthcare insurance... We insist that it cover every last possible sniffle and every possible visit to the doctor. Comprehensive insurance used to be something that was affordable because the majority of people had some form of catastrophic insurance - that kept both types of insurance affordable. Now there is only one kind of insurance, the do-it-all-pay-for-everything insurance and just like it would be with Car insurance, its become far too expensive.

On a side note... If you believe Healthcare is a right, what do you consider personal responsibility? If its Governments job to provide you with healthcare, is it also Governments job to force you to be responsible in your personal decisions that relate to your Healthcare? Once you help pay for my insurance, you will feel the need to make me stop smoking, stop eating fast food, stop sitting on the couch and avoiding exercise etc.
 
Oh I am with you, it won’t work but trying to explain that, and also that we lose our individuality doesn’t matter to these people... No more than it mattered to the girl’s father or her friends in the episode. I kept thinking when I was a kid and saw that episode, why not let this girl be who she wants to be, it’s just her, it wont hurt anyone.... but it would have. It would have threatened the whole core of the community she lived in. If she got to be individual then someone else might want it, then another and another till they had no power over the people. The world is desperate to make us like them. As long as we are a free people we are a threat to the way the world wants and expects us to be.

Once the girl caved and picked body style number 2, there was no going back.....once we cave and pick socialism over communism there is no going back, at best only forward to the more radical communism........ We are the light that suppressed nations look to. That sounds really arrogant I suppose but I know that it’s true, and as long as that light is shining it makes it hard to keep people down and in the box that was special made for them

My curoisty now is .. Do we choice Darwinisim on healthcare...
If you have a low intelligence.. and unfortunally can only work a regular job as a bank teller.. but you have a family .. say 2 kids..

Lets say his average monthly income is 1800 a month .. which is not terribly bad considering he has no intelligence.

so .. 1800
750 for rent ((about right.. probably more for owning ))
100 Electric
20 for water
100 for phone
225 car payment
100 for full coverage for that car
200 grocery bill (( growing kids ))

Everyone can agree this is ABOUT right.. plus or minus about 100
I got $1495 dollars of his check now gone..
After doing some checking...with Humana online I found the starting price for BARELY any medical insurance is $230 dollars
Thats not including dental which tacks on an additional 137 dollars.
Already he is over budget ... by 66 dollars

you can argue all day that "well he doesn't need the car payment.. should buy a jalopy.. or he doesn't need a phone." instead of addressing the issue that his healthcare that he might never use is the second largest bill he has to worry about now.

Not to mention .. that the deductible is $7500...
 
as it stands there is really only 3 major insurance companies in america that litterally hold a monopoly on healthcare.. alot of the costs asociated with what we pay in premiuns are due directly to their supposed 16 to 20 overhead costs. Considering the profits they are raking in with it (( and they must be because medicare claims only 1.3 precent overhead at best )) why haven't other companies stepped in to offer lower rates while streamlining their admin overhead?

If there is not legislation holding them up.. what would be the point of encouraging new insurance companies if they would only see the potiental of raising overhead costs on the admin side to match their much larger counter-parts in the industry? In the end .. the company is always worried about bottom-line profit and how much they can pull for shareholders.

It's possible that Medicare only has 1.3% because they do not check prevent fraud at all. The most recent reports show Medicare loses $60 Billion in fraud every year.

Further, Medicare is costing us higher premiums. When Medicare cuts how much it pays for services rendered, we pay it with higher insurance costs.

Finely, in looking at overhead costs around the world, the average is between 10% to 20%. In other words, it's right in line with what would be expected.

The problem is simply that the government has setup a system that shifts cost onto the consumer. By law, hospitals must treat medicare, medicaid patients, and will only get how much the government dictates they will pay for it. The shortfall, falls on us. By law, hospitals must treat people who have no intention of paying for services. The shortfall, falls on us.

This is all there is to it. We setup a system that jacks up the price on ourselves, and now we blame others for our own choices.
 
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It's possible that Medicare only has 1.3% because they do not check prevent fraud at all. The most recent reports show Medicare loses $60 Billion in fraud every year.

Further, Medicare is costing us higher premiums. When Medicare cuts how much it pays for services rendered, we pay it with higher insurance costs.

Finely, in looking at overhead costs around the world, the average is between 10% to 20%. In other words, it's right in line with what would be expected.

The problem is simply that the government has setup a system that shifts cost onto the consumer. By law, hospitals must treat medicare, medicaid patients, and will only get how much the government dictates they will pay for it. The shortfall, falls on us. By law, hospitals must treat people who have no intention of paying for services. The shortfall, falls on us.

This is all there is to it. We setup a system that jacks up the price on ourselves, and now we blame others for our own choices.

i guess the core of the problem I am trying to get to is.. (( as GenSeneca pointed out to me )) There used to be two forms of healthcare.. the everyday.. and the catastrophic OMG I just lost a limb insurance.. which kept its affordablity to nearly all americans out there... but legislation has changed it such to make the current insurance code read that the insurer now does EVERYTHING... if this was working before.. and obviously the change is making the 1 in all not work now.. what was the peice of legislation that made this change.. why was it brought up in the first place and whats the harm is returning back to the 2 form insurance coverage.. (( hate to ask you all this instead of actually giving answers.. but I am finding litterally nothing on the net ))
 
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