Ignore This Thread

[Shadow]

It is propaganda, I know because I made it... Thats an actual photo from a Cuban hospital... You know Cuba, the country Micheal Moore (speaking of Propaganda) said had a better healthcare system than the US.

IF that is an actual photo of a patient in Hosp ( Cuban)........then it is a bloody good thing this person is IN hospital. Amazing how these kinds of pics can be "captioned" , and all of a suddent conclusions are drawn that are most likely FAR from fact or truth. From what I hear from REAL people and friends who have travelled in Cuba, the health system there is very good. Whether it is better than the US or not.... can't say. Naturally Moore has his own agenda here as well.

(not sure that there is a bloke around that does not have an agenda now

 

[GenSeneca]

Amazing how these kinds of pics can be "captioned" , and all of a suddent conclusions are drawn that are most likely FAR from fact or truth.

Same way your (Socialists everywhere) entire perception of America and Conservatives was formed... through sweeping generalizations stemming from extreme examples.

 

[Pandora]

Stupid wars... They eventually end but those pesky Entitlement programs keep growing.

nice pic

but I bet the bots will look at that and think its some poor person from Iraq that Bush is bombing

 

[TruthAboveAll]

I think it will cost less in the long run, more care from teh start , less high bills for catastrophic events. Whats cheaper some pills to help your heart....or the heart attack that comes from not seeing a dr cuz you had no care, and the feds pick up the bill anyway...

Any time the federal government takes over anything in the social area, it is never a savings "in the long run." Just as the current Medicaid/Medicare systems, along with Social Security are on shaky ground, this same thing is what you would have for the whole country's health care.

Your point on not seeing a doctor tor prevent a heart attack or the drug to prevent it is an excellent case in point. My MIL is one of those seniors trying to scrape by on SS. She has several health conditions, yet Medicare will not cover some medications that help her tremendously. I cannot begin to tell you the number of situations we've had in the past several years where Medicare would not cover a test, procedure, or medication, but will cover the resulting emergency room visit and two or three day stay for "stabilizing."

Yeah, sure. Just bring that on for all of us. As you yourself state, the "feds pick up the bill anyway..." That is we the taxpayer picking up the bill. And you all who want nationalized health care would be the first complaining when the system fails, as it is doomed to do as most proponents envision it.

And think about the true cost of health care right now, not just what we all pay, but the trillians our companies dumb into payinf for there workers. THings that in any other nation they would not have to pay for.

Much of the cost of those TRILLIONS companies DUMP into paying for workers is caused BY the government. A company supplying medical insurance is required to give the same coverage to all employees within their classification. Coverage for hourly employees must be the same. Coverage for management can be different, but the same for all management. That's an over-simplified descriptor, and not intended as a cut-and-dried formula.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about "things... they would not have to pay for." If you're talking procedures - yes "they" do, if you take the tax paying public as a whole. If you're talking premiums - yes "they" do, with the paying public as a whole.

and again this is a policy that we are just letting people get, you still pay for it. Its not like its just here its free ( unless you realy make a small amount of money) but most who would get it would pay, in to be part of it...or you just keep what you have.

Who is going to pay for it is a significant part of the whole issue. There are multi-faceted approaches out there to creating better solutions than for having the government take over. The Center for Health Transformation has phenomenal information, and should be required reading for anyone purporting health care reform.

 

[TruthAboveAll]

... Nationalized, Socialized, or whatever else you want to call it 'healthcare', DOES NOT WORK. It's NEVER worked, and it never will work... Canada's system sucks worse than that because by the time you can even get an appointment to see a doctor, you're either over whatever it was that was bothering you, your so far gone that there's nothing they can do for you, or you're DEAD!...

FF, condensed your first two paragraphs for the key points I wanted to say RIGHT ON to. One problem with the advocates for socialized reform is that they persist in the mindset that Socialism (for whatever purpose) CAN succeed if it's only done right. They fail to see that Socialism fails based on faulty premises and presumptions. Oh, it may be able to fix a problem here and there... but at what cost? Not one I want to see us pay.

The problem with healthcare has nothing to do with doctors, or hospitals, it has to do with GOVERNMENT. If you really want to see truly affordable healthcare insurance, the first thing that's got to happen is TORT REFORM, the second thing is to get rid of all of those stupid government mandates and let doctors get back to treating patients instead of filling out mountains of paperwork, the third thing is to allow insurance companies to write "ala cart" policies where the insured gets to customize their policy the way THEY want it, and lastly, let people write off the ENTIRE cost of their insurance and healthcare (at least until we can get the FairTax passed, at which point it'll be moot).

Dead on! I posted this in another response, but check out Center for Health Transformation. I'm not spamming, it's a great resource for anyone truly wishing to find sound, viable solutions in this area.

 

[Shadow]

What might be important is to define exactly , what would constitute a health system that would work for everyone.


Let's see some ideas.

 

[Pandora]

What might be important is to define exactly , what would constitute a health system that would work for everyone.


Let's see some ideas.

Take advantage of the free schooling offered to all Americans then Get a job, live responsibly and if you want the government to be your mother, tell you what to do, and change your diaper then move to freaking Canada or some other God forsaken socialist nation.

 

[Shadow]

Take advantage of the free schooling offered to all Americans

so free schooling is ok..........yet the health of those being schooled must be paid astronomical amounts.???


seems that health and education go hand in hand towards making a population what it is.

btw: wait until you are old and incapacitated .........and need a diaper change. (for real).


You might just be happy there is someone willing & being paid to do it.

 

[GenSeneca]

so free schooling is ok..........yet the health of those being schooled must be paid astronomical amounts.???


seems that health and education go hand in hand towards making a population what it is.

btw: wait until you are old and incapacitated .........and need a diaper change. (for real).


You might just be happy there is someone willing & being paid to do it.

Your complete ignorance of the US and its existing programs is astonishing... that or you know about SCHIP, WICK, Medicare/Medicaid and ALL the other overlapping systems but choose to ignore them because they are not Socialist enough for your tastes.

 

[Pandora]

so free schooling is ok..........yet the health of those being schooled must be paid astronomical amounts.???


seems that health and education go hand in hand towards making a population what it is.

btw: wait until you are old and incapacitated .........and need a diaper change. (for real).


You might just be happy there is someone willing & being paid to do it.

I am just a plain old girl, I had my son on my 19th birthday... there were times in my life I worked three jobs. (most of my adult life so far)

I did what I had to do to take care of my son, I knew it was my job not any one else job.

Though there was one time he needed a surgery and I did ask for a 30 day medical voucher for his surgery and I was low enough income to be able to have it so they gave it to me. But I didnt ask for it all the time, I asked for the one time he needed a surgery.

I did not expect others to take care of me, I did what I needed to do, to take care of my family.

If I, just a stupid conservative girl can do this, why are you guys acting like it cant be done, its a lost cause, no one can make it, the sky is falling.

Americans through out history have always known how to reach for the impossible and be able to grab it. But this new breed of American that seems to be everywhere is doom and gloom, everything is bad, nothing is good, we cant make it.

the left cant make it on their own so they assume no one can.

If the government and the stupid libs would get the hell out of my way, I could go a whole lot further than I already have.

but none of this you could possibly understand so I dont know why I bother trying to explain.

 

[Andy]

yea it would suck knowing more people had health care ...you know we could make lines real fast if we just raise the rate double again and let a few million more not able to have care....

Healthcare for teh right, F the rest of you

Somehow... we seem to have a miscommunication.

Right now... as it stands currently, everyone has health care. Everyone does. In fact, as a percentage, more than 100% of Americans get health care. How is that possible? Because Hospitals are required to treat everyone that comes no matter what, even illegals and foreigners from other countries.

So not only do ALL Americans get treatment whether they have insurance or any ability to pay or not... but ALSO... all the illegals, and even people who fly in from other countries, all get treatment, and then never pay. I read about 5 years ago, how hospitals on the east coast had a problem with people flying here form Africa, getting treatment and leaving.

So as it stands, more we have a higher number of people getting health care than we have people. So this idea that 'more people are going to get health care' is a joke. We are already about 100% of the population getting health care.

Further, we seem to be missing the source of the problem to begin with. The people who pay for health care, are paying for all the people not paying for health care (or paying for the government programs that don't pay). So the idea that we are going to add the extra cost of more people to a system that already cost to much because of people not paying.... Do you not see how this theory is going to make the problem worse?

 

[Andy]

That would be fine and dandy if healthcare was affordable for most lower to middle class people.. but the rise in healthcare costs are now dragging middle class familes into a lower class simply because their premiums are moving at a much larger rate then inflation.

I must be missing something. The average family spends more on car payments, rent, food, mortgage, and in many cases entertainment, than they do on health care. How does this drag a middle class family into a lower class? Buy a cheaper car and the problem is solved. Stop smoking and drinking your money away and the problem is solved. Stop going out to eat every night, and the problem is solved.

Here do this, save up $5,000 dollars, and get a high deductible insurance policy like I did. You can afford $65 a month.

On a person note.. its Bull**** that someone working a 40 hour week job while trying to go to school and has children is looking at literally a 3 to 400 dollar a month healthcare plan.. this is just unacceptable.. but this is where the market has taken us.

My co-worker is 24, going to school at Ohio State University. He is married, and his wife is with child. His insurance is $270 a month. It not easy, but he's doing just fine.

Capitalistic aproach to Healthcare is fine.. but not when only half of your country can afford it and the current trend shows further degradation and even less people being able to afford it in the coming years.

If free market Healthcare is the answer... why isn't it working right now?

and if Universal healthcare is so bad.. then why is France kicking our ever loving butts in health per person nation wide?

Because Frances health care sucks. In order to cut costs, the French government negotiates contracts for medicine. In the process, if a medication costs too much, the government simply doesn't buy it.

For example, when a new medication that is more effective, or has fewer negative side effects becomes available, we here in America of course want it. However it costs more since it's the latest greatest so on.

However in France, it's totally different. The government simply doesn't have the money pay for the new medication. So they don't get it. Instead they use the old obsolete drugs we no longer use, since they are cheap. In France they don't even have the option to get the newer drug. It's not even listed. The people are forced to use the older, less effective, worse side effects, drugs that we discontinued 5 to 10 years ago.

Here are some facts about French Health Care you may not be aware of:

FHC, has run a deficit since it was instituted in 1985
FHC, has increased social security taxes (that pay for FHC) to currently 42%. That's just the Social security tax, not including income tax, the VAT sales tax, or the taxes on corporation (which drive wages down).
FHC, in no longer universal. 1/5 of the population is no longer covered as a cost cutting change.
FHC, now has co-pays that have increased to 40% for many services as a cost cutting change.
FHC, most patients now have private insurance to cover what FHC does not.

Now let me ask you: are you ready to pay 42% tax on your pay check, and pay 40% co-pays, plus buying a supplemental insurance policy on top of all that?

You tell me. Which is worse, $400 a month... or a 42% tax rate, plus another insurance policy, and 40% co-pays? Is this the system you really think is going to be better than ours?

Oh and by the way, word from France is, more cuts to FHC are in the works. The economy of France is not doing so hot, and the cost of medical care is still rising. I bet the cost to the public will increase even more, or services will drop.

BTW Capitalism REQUIRES lower-class people .. should we honestly.. as humans .. say .. "sorry dude.. sucks to be you?" when the economy sours and inflation grows?

It doesn't require it, it's automatic. As long as people are given freedom, and thus the ability to be different, there will always be those that make more and those that make less.

It's like running a race. Unless everyone is tied together and prevented from ever being at a different spot, there will always be some that get in front, and those that get behind.

The problem is, there is nothing wrong with a lower class. And in capitalism, the lower class is way better off than in communism. I cite myself. I'm lower class. My income last year was $17K. I have computer, a small home, a beat up car, I eat well.

Now compare that to China prior to Capitalism. Prior to 1978, 64% of the population was earning less than $1 a day, but at least there wasn't a 'lower-class' because everyone's income sucked.

The only way you are not going to have a 'lower-class' is by eliminating freedom, and forcing everyone to earn the same $2/hour working sugar cain fields in Cuba. And the people from Cuban are willing to risk their lives for the chance to be lower class in America.

 

[Andy]

so free schooling is ok..........yet the health of those being schooled must be paid astronomical amounts.???

Um... schooling isn't free. Further, public schooling sucks compared to private schooling. Further, the cost of public schooling is shooting through the roof. We blow more money for less results than most nations do. Most asian countries spend a fraction of what we do on schooling, and yet I'm constantly amazed by how far more educated they tend to be.

If we have American health care follow the same path as public schooling, taxes will triple, the quality will drop, and we'll have random mass shootings in hospitals. No... thank you. I'll pass.

seems that health and education go hand in hand towards making a population what it is.

btw: wait until you are old and incapacitated .........and need a diaper change. (for real).

You might just be happy there is someone willing & being paid to do it.

Have you been to public retirement homes? I have. Have you been to private retirement homes? I have. I worked as a delivery driver, that delivered medication to all different places all over Ohio.

If you want publicly funded retirement villages, be read to live is a rats nest. Be ready to be treated like a number instead of like a customer.

Little bit of advice. Make sure you save up for retirement. If you end up in a government home, you'll wish someone had shot you.

 

[Andy]

I think it will cost less in the long run, more care from teh start , less high bills for catastrophic events. Whats cheaper some pills to help your heart....or the heart attack that comes from not seeing a dr cuz you had no care, and the feds pick up the bill anyway...

That's nice opinion, and I totally respect that is what you think. Um... but if you do any research whatsoever, that is not what happens. The cost of health care is blowing a hole in France's budget. They are planning to make even more cuts. The plan has been in deficit every year since 1985 when it was created.

Medicare and Medicaid have been over budget constantly, yet they dictate pay out to health providers.

Look at VA hospitals. That's American socialized care, and it is not doing well at all. Most vets avoid VA hospitals like they were death traps (because they are).

Look at Canada. The system is so bad, people fly to India to get treatment, let alone here. The cost has increased taxes over and over.

Look at Masshealth in Massachusetts. The program has been over budget every single year. The state government tried to cut expenses, by reducing pay out for medication, and all the stores and companies nearly pulled out of the entire state. Meanwhile, the hospitals are having longer wait times for just getting an bed, let alone treatment.

... honestly, the evidence is very conclusive. When government takes over and socializes medicine, one of two things consistently happen.

A: the cost shoots through the roof, and people pay 42% social security tax to cover the cost in France.

B: The government implements price controls which kill quality and service, resulting in people flying to India to get basic care, because there are no doctors, and the hospitals are full in Canada.

And think about the true cost of health care right now, not just what we all pay, but the trillians our companies dumb into payinf for there workers. THings that in any other nation they would not have to pay for.

and again this is a policy that we are just letting people get, you still pay for it. Its not like its just here its free ( unless you realy make a small amount of money) but most who would get it would pay, in to be part of it...or you just keep what you have.

In France, you pay 40.5% social security tax. The company pays a 34.4% Capital gains tax. Income tax is 5.3% lowest marginal rate. There is a 19.6% Value Added Tax, or sale tax on everything you buy. Add in a 6% fuel tax on petrol.

Then you get to pay for supplemental insurance, and a 30 - 40% co-pay for medical services.

They pay a bunch more, to get a lot less.

 

[Andy]

IF that is an actual photo of a patient in Hosp ( Cuban)........then it is a bloody good thing this person is IN hospital. Amazing how these kinds of pics can be "captioned" , and all of a suddent conclusions are drawn that are most likely FAR from fact or truth. From what I hear from REAL people and friends who have travelled in Cuba, the health system there is very good. Whether it is better than the US or not.... can't say. Naturally Moore has his own agenda here as well.

(not sure that there is a bloke around that does not have an agenda now

Yeah, really good. You do know that Castro routinely presents foreigners with a very different view than reality in order to hide how his communistic tyranny has devastated Cuba, right? Read this.

The truth is that Cuban medical care has never recovered from Castro’s takeover — when the country’s health care ranked among the world’s best. He won the support of the Cuban people by promising to replace Batista’s dictatorship with free elections, and to end corruption. Once in power, though, he made himself dictator and instituted Soviet-style Communism. Cubans not only failed to regain their democratic rights, their economy plunged into centrally planned poverty.

As many as half of Cuba’s doctors fled almost immediately — and defections continue to this day. Castro won’t allow observers in to monitor his nation’s true state, but defectors tell us that many Cubans live with permanent malnutrition and long waits for even basic medical services. Many treatments we take for granted aren’t available at all — except to the Communist elite or foreigners with dollars.

For them, Castro keeps “show” clinics equipped with the best medicines and technologies available. It was almost certainly one of these that Moore went to, if the stories in the NY Post and The Daily News are true.

What is it that leads people to value theoretically “free” health care, even when it’s lousy or nonexistent, over a free society that actually delivers health care? You might have to deal with creditors after you go to the emergency ward in America, but no one is denied medical care here. I guarantee even the poorest Americans are getting far better medical services than many Cubans.

According to Forbes magazine, by the way, Castro is now personally worth approximately $900 million. So when he desperately needed medical treatment recently, he could afford to fly a Spanish surgeon, with equipment, on a chartered jet to Cuba. What does that say about free Cuban health care?

This was written by Fred Thompson for ABC.

What a great question. Let me reprint it.

What is it that leads people to value theoretically “free” health care, even when it’s lousy or nonexistent, over a free society that actually delivers health care?