Johnson VINDICATED!!!!!!!!

[ASPCA4EVER]

You might want to go back and re-read what I said. I never accused you of being a member of the Tin-Foil-Hat Brigade, I said that there are some on your side of the aisle who ARE.

Well, let us summarize: first you assumed that I said/felt/innuendoed that you could/would alter/modify/fabricate a photo...so you restated "that's why I provided the LINK'!!! When in fact/point, I didn't say anything about 'YOU or YOUR Ability to alter that photo'...Don't keep giving yourself soooo much credit for computer enhancements

As for your assertion about falsifying photographs, you have to remember that Photoshop hadn't been invented in 1964, and faking pictures back then was haphazard at best, and almost any kid today can spot 'em a mile away. Just look at the "special effects" in the original Star Wars. George Lucas had the BEST technology in the world (for the time) but there was no way that anyone couldn't see the "frame lapping" used throughout the movie, and that was more than a decade AFTER the Gulf of Tonkin.

I'm well versed on when Photo shop was invented and fully functioning...I've taken photography classes {I'm no pro, but I've learned a lot}...so that goes with out saying...DUH we all know that time frame. But that bullet notated in that picture could have very easily been put there by others...{that's what I was saying}... and a hard copy of that in the archives is going to show the same thing...but it will have an inventoried number assigned to it...big deal! It's highly plausible to stage a shot such as that, easily done!

Now, the National Archives will send you a copy of the photograph, but since you've apparantly developed into a full blown CT freak, why don't you just go to DC and look at the original and let us know if you still think it's "faked".

You can 'assert your OPINION' into that assumption of yours that it isn't a fake as well as I can stand by my OPINION that it is highly possible/plausible to 'FAKE' that photo and you can't tell me otherwise!

Well, you can and then you can continue to get ugly about that difference of OPINION but it would just prove that you get angry {as usual} and I have a right to say that my idea could be a FACT too!

As many, many adults remember about the 'FACTS' about the Vietnam War...if our government is quite capable of falsifying enemy dead body counts to obtain more 'American warm bodies to be sent to that hell hole', then our government is very, very capable of twisting things to achieve their agenda's!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I'm sorry to read this Andy. I generally agree with what I've read of yours, but in this case we're polar opposites. It doesn't matter how bad Obliviot messes up, I'm going to stay and fight for my country and Constitution, because that's what I've sworn, before God Almighty to do.

As for the constant charges of "fear", she's projecting her own fear because she's never figured out that fear and faith cannot exist in the same body.

OOPS...did you just derail this topic for something about religion/faith...

And since you've opened that 'PANDORA'S BOX' {Jesus I just couldn't resist that one and I'll not apologize, it was just too easy & funny}...for every positive emotion there is the underlying negative emotion and vice verse...so what you just said was inaccurate...to put it politely!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I no longer "want" Obama to fail. He *IS* a failure.

100 plus days in office and you've ascertained that he's a failure...WOW. How long did it take for you to get fed up with G.W.B. and company running this great country into the ditch???

Funny how many different leaders from around the world, as well as intelligence agencies, were also "UNAWARE". If Bush was aware, and everyone else on the planet, including all of congress, was not aware, then clearly Bush is by far the most intelligent and brilliant manipulator the world has ever seen.

Well, when we keep sending our envoys {aka, Condalisa Rice, Colon Powell, VP Cheney, Rumsfeld} around the world with the 'Loud Speakers Blasting'..."the TALIBAN IS COMING, THE TALIBAN IS COMING" Who did you think that they were going to listen too and believe...now that wasn't a hard 'magic marker moment'...hell everyone connected the dots...that's what got G.W.B. good buddy over in England in so much trouble...he drank that 'Kool-Aide' and asked for more, "oh, please master, just a couple cups more"

Why would I care? If my posts which state the facts about the left, is unwanted, then being banned would serve my own interest as well as theirs. We are here to discuss truth. Every word I used to describe the actions and motivations of the left, was clear cut truth. If we are here to discuss lies, save us both the trouble and ban me.

No, No, NO-NO-NO...you have your opinion/feelings/emotional reasoning...but you don't have any FACTS to call anyone those kind of names!

No, it wasn't fear. It was because we had two democrats running for office. People tend to not vote, when either candidate would harm America. McCain was a democrat with a republican name badge. There was no true conservative running for office.

Now that is something that I haven't heard anyone say...hmmm, don't know that I'm completely sold on that view/idea but there was something that certainly changed about John McCain...I really wanted him to beat G.W.B. in that election of 2004. My how things would have turned out so different had John won the primary!!!

Even now, I have no fear of Obama. If he screws up America enough, I'll simply go to another country.

Well, that is always an option for all of us...but I survived: Nixon/Reagan/Carter/8 years of G.W.B. and those are just my top worst presidents that I've lived through...so I think that this hard economic period will pass and we'll all look back and remark about the 'tough times of the 21st century and how we all pulled together and survived. No cutting and running away for me and my house!

 

[Bob the Builder]

Well, let us summarize: first you assumed that I said/felt/innuendoed that you could/would alter/modify/fabricate a photo...so you restated "that's why I provided the LINK'!!! When in fact/point, I didn't say anything about 'YOU or YOUR Ability to alter that photo'...Don't keep giving yourself soooo much credit for computer enhancements

You're projecting again! I never said anything about "MY" ability to fabricate a photo, I was responding to YOUR assertion that the government would fabricate the photo. Equivocating really isn't your forte`, you really shouldn't try.

I'm well versed on when Photo shop was invented and fully functioning...I've taken photography classes {I'm no pro, but I've learned a lot}...so that goes with out saying...DUH we all know that time frame. But that bullet notated in that picture could have very easily been put there by others...{that's what I was saying}... and a hard copy of that in the archives is going to show the same thing...but it will have an inventoried number assigned to it...big deal! It's highly plausible to stage a shot such as that, easily done!

So now you're a psychologist/construction company owner/ photoshoper. Is there ANYTHING you won't claim to try to substantiate your bovine excrement!

As for your assertion that someone "put the bullet there", I already addressed that when I asked if anyone was implying that someone on the Maddox shot their own ship! First of all the Maddox didn't have any 12.7mm weapons on board so it would have been impossible for anyone on board to have "put the bullet there", which means that it had to have come from another vessel. As the Maddox was patrolling alone on 2 Aug. '64, and no vessels other than the N. Vietnamese patrol boats were in the area, there was no possibility for the bullet to have been fired from any other vessel than the N. Vietnamese patrol boats. Even if you wanted to try to say that the aircraft launched in support of the Maddox could have fired the shots, the fact that they carried 20mm and not 12.7mm precludes this. So much for your "easily done" theory.

You can 'assert your OPINION' into that assumption of yours that it isn't a fake as well as I can stand by my OPINION that it is highly possible/plausible to 'FAKE' that photo and you can't tell me otherwise!

To this point all you've exhibited is your "opinion", but no EVIDENCE in support of that "opinion". Then there is the sworn testimony of the Captain, Executive Officer, Duty Officer, the entire bridge crew, Radar Operators, and the rest of the ships entire compliment, unless of course you're willing to totally destroy any shred of credibility you could ever hope to salvage by claiming that they ALL lied about the incident, so yes, I CAN tell you otherwise, and so can they.

Well, you can and then you can continue to get ugly about that difference of OPINION but it would just prove that you get angry {as usual} and I have a right to say that my idea could be a FACT too!

Wrong again. You haven't presented any evidence or fact in substantiation of your "opinions". I HAVE presented evidence, and if you had bothered to look around the site I linked to you would have found lots of information on the incident, including the ships log of the action, other photos of the spent 12.7mm shell that hit the Maddox, and testimony of the crew, so once again, is it your assertion that the entire crew lied?

 

[Bob the Builder]

OOPS...did you just derail this topic for something about religion/faith...

No, I mentioned my OATH. YOU'RE the one who's constantly going on about faith, religion and fear, which would go a long way towards explaining why you're so conflicted.

Really, do try to keep up with what's going on.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I'm sorry to read this Andy. I generally agree with what I've read of yours, but in this case we're polar opposites. It doesn't matter how bad Obliviot messes up, I'm going to stay and fight for my country and Constitution, because that's what I've sworn, before God Almighty to do.

As for the constant charges of "fear", she's projecting her own fear because she's never figured out that fear and faith cannot exist in the same body.

I love it when you {people of your ilk} are never able to remember the B.S. that they spew and then the rest of us have to keep reminding you over & over & over...repetitious and self inflicted stupidity is becoming your mantra!!!

So now you're a psychologist/construction company owner/ photoshoper. Is there ANYTHING you won't claim to try to substantiate your bovine excrement!

Now that explains the vile/vitriolic spewing that you exude so constantly and with such vigor...you don't understand the desire/ability to continue learning/reading/education...the shear joy of finding something new and wonderful in our world.

Shake off all of that huge pack of negative that you haul around like a shackle and it might become the most enlightening/uplifting experience of your shallow life!!!

And about that "BOVINE EXCREMENT" idea...yep, I know B.S. when I see/read it and honey bunny, you are knee deep in it with everyone but your little trolling buddy!!! Now I know that your angry response is just the smoke for the inability to discuss anything and everything...anger for not being able to converse like an adult...go to bed and take a break!!!

 

[Bob the Builder]

ASPCA, you're a joke, and I'm sorry I decided to read any of your junk after I put you on ignore.

"OOH, you're ANGRY", "OOH, you need to take a break", "OOH"...whatever other silly crap you gin out instead of an argument.

Since you're obviously entirely too dense to comprehend the finer nuances of the English language I won't make that mistake again.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

ASPCA, you're a joke, and I'm sorry I decided to read any of your junk after I put you on ignore.

"OOH, you're ANGRY", "OOH, you need to take a break", "OOH"...whatever other silly crap you gin out instead of an argument.

Since you're obviously entirely too dense to comprehend the finer nuances of the English language I won't make that mistake again.

Well, that ignore list of yours just keeps growing...so why waste your superior time around here with us mere mortals. I've asked that question numerous times and you avoid it As with many derails that you cause and then become hyper reactive too once someone is trying to get your focus back upon the TOPIC. You've flamed your own little trolling BUDDY and I had to bring that to your attention too...JEEZ you really have serious emotional issues...LMAO

You can't argue my idea/POV about the plausible/possible fabrication for that photo...so you just become a PISSY/FOOT STAMPING juvenile and stomp off...OK, that is the common response for your posts!!!

 

[Andy]

I'm sorry to read this Andy. I generally agree with what I've read of yours, but in this case we're polar opposites. It doesn't matter how bad Obliviot messes up, I'm going to stay and fight for my country and Constitution, because that's what I've sworn, before God Almighty to do.

As for the constant charges of "fear", she's projecting her own fear because she's never figured out that fear and faith cannot exist in the same body.

I understand completely. It is an honorable thing to commit yourself to that calling.

I however have made no commitment. I have no family to keep me here. Nor do I have any strong investment nor attachment to this country.

As long as the country remains committed to freedom and beliefs the founding fathers had in mind, I will remain. Otherwise, if it starts down a path like that of Venezuela with it's dictatorship under Hugo Chavez, I personally have will no problem moving elsewhere.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Sometimes the "Hate America First" crowd make it entirely too easy with their lack of even basic research!

Photo #: NH 97897
(LINK)
Gulf of Tonkin Incident, August 1964

Now either 3 N. Vietnamese Motor Torpedo Boats did in fact attack the USS Maddox, or is it your contention that she shot herself?

As for the USS Turner Joy, it has been public knowledge for years that the "attack" on her was the result of an "green", tired, and overanxious young radarman mistaking seastate conditions for enemy vessels. Given that the Maddox had been attacked in the same area only 2 days before, his mistake is somewhat understandable.

Yeah.....avoid all researchhttp://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261....​

"American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression", announced a Washington Post headline on Aug. 5, 1964.

But there was no "second attack" by North Vietnam — no "renewed attacks against American destroyers."

Rather than being on a routine patrol Aug. 2, the U.S. destroyer Maddox was actually engaged in aggressive intelligence-gathering maneuvers — in sync with coordinated attacks on North Vietnam by the South Vietnamese navy and the Laotian air force."

.....at ANY cost!!​

"North Vietnam's leaders, who knew from their own intelligence sources about the American connection to Operation 34A, were determined not to bend to U.S. pressure. Hanoi directed its navy, which had not been able to catch the fast PTFs, to attack the slower American destroyer. On the afternoon of 2 August, the Communists dispatched three Soviet-built P-4 motor torpedo boats against Maddox. Torpedoes launched from the P-4s missed their mark. Only one round from enemy deck guns hit the destroyer; it lodged in the ship's superstructure. The North Vietnamese naval vessels were not so fortunate. Shellfire from Maddox hit the attackers. Then F-8 Crusader jets dispatched from the aircraft carrier USS Ticonderoga (CVA 14) strafed all three P-4s and left one boat dead in the water and on fire. The action over, Maddox steamed toward the mouth of the Gulf of Tonkin and supporting naval forces. The President and his national security advisors were surprised that Ho Chi Minh had not only failed to buckle under U.S. military pressure but had reacted to it in such a bold way. Johnson, Admiral Ulysses S. G. Sharp, the commander of American military forces in the Pacific, and Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, decided that the United States could not retreat from this clear Communist challenge. They reinforced Maddox with destroyer USS Turner Joy (DD 951) and directed Captain Herrick to continue his intelligence-gathering mission off North Vietnam with the two naval vessels. On the night of 4 August, the warships reported making contact and then being attacked by several fast craft far out to sea. Officers in the naval chain of command and U.S. leaders in Washington were persuaded by interpretation of special intelligence and reports from the ships that North Vietnamese naval forces had attacked the two destroyers. More recent analysis of that data and additional information gathered on the 4 August episode now makes it clear that North Vietnamese naval forces did not attack Maddox and Turner Joy that night in the summer of 1964."

Quite often, the "God Bless America" crowd makes it entirely too easy to jump into (whatever) War, with their lack of even basic research!

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

It may seem to be "madness" samsara, but if you'll recall it was the "opening shot" of the paradigm shift in N. Vietnamese strategy towards dealing with our assistance for the S. Vietnamese government.

....AFTER our assistance to the FRENCH-COLONISTS blew-up IN OUR FACE!!!​

WWII - "Ho Chi Minh met with the U.S. operative, Major Patti, and they agreed on joint anti-Japanese actions. The U.S. dropped supplies behind the lines to Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh helped Americans downed behind Japanese lines. The first American advisors helped train, equip and arm the Viet Minh. In 1945, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam was formed with Ho Chi Minh as the first President. American planes flew over Hanoi in celebration of the founding.

Ho Chi Minh asked the Americans to honor their commitment to independence, citing the Atlantic Charter and the U.N. Charter on self-determination. However, by the end of the war, the U.S. government had begun to redirect its foreign policy from the wartime goal of the liberation of all occupied countries and colonies to the postwar anti-communist crusade, which became the Cold War. In France, where communists had led the resistance to the Nazi occupation, American policy supported General Charles de Gaulle and his anti-communist "Free French." De Gaulle aimed to restore the glory of France, which meant the return of all former French colonies. U.S. relations with the Vietnamese turned sour. President Truman refused to answer letters or cables from Ho. Instead, the U.S. began to ship military aid to the French forces in Indochina."

We SCREWED the Vietnamese!!!!

They had EVERY REASON to give us A SERIOUS AZZ-KICKIN'!!!!!!!!!!​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Nope, because when I bash Obliviot and his policies, I've got the research to BACK IT UP!

Yeah....besides his being Black, you "conservatives" DREAD the thought he might turn-around our economy JUST LIKE BILL CLINTON DID....after "conservatives" (then) were convinced Bill Clinton would never be able to turn-around Daddy Bush's HEAVILY-INDEBTED economic-debacle!!!

Ya' got nothin'......... ​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I'm of the opinion that Obama stands for things opposed to America. Thus bashing him is the highest example of being for America.

That said... isn't it amazing how when a Democrat like LBJ acts on the information given, supposedly ignorant the reports were in question, that is not his fault.

But if GWB acts on the information given, unaware that some were questionable, then he's an idiot and obviously lying, either twisting the truth or incompetent.

So....what?......he was blind-drunk when all o' this data was COMIN'-AT-HIM???!!

​

 

[Bob the Builder]

I understand completely. It is an honorable thing to commit yourself to that calling.

I however have made no commitment. I have no family to keep me here. Nor do I have any strong investment nor attachment to this country.

As long as the country remains committed to freedom and beliefs the founding fathers had in mind, I will remain. Otherwise, if it starts down a path like that of Venezuela with it's dictatorship under Hugo Chavez, I personally have will no problem moving elsewhere.

Would it not be better though to join those of us who are committed to saving this country than to move somewhere that is already where you fear that we're headed?

I've traveled the world, and I have found no other place that has such a strong committment to the freedoms and liberties that we have here.

 

[Andy]

Would it not be better though to join those of us who are committed to saving this country than to move somewhere that is already where you fear that we're headed?

I've traveled the world, and I have found no other place that has such a strong commitment to the freedoms and liberties that we have here.

Most of the world is pushing away from socialism and totalitarianism. We are one of the very few countries embracing socialism, and government control. Even Russia, that former bastion of capitalist thought, has instituted a flat tax, and cut capital gains taxes, and embraced private ownership and even, privately run health care.

We are the only idiotic modern country trying to socialize our way to prosperity. I happen to be of the pessimistic opinion that Americans are too ignorant of what life was like is socialist countries, to change the direction of the country until they embrace, and suffer, socialism themselves.

It's a simple fact of life, that the stupid will always out number the informed.

And since our country has gradually transformed itself from a constutitional republic, into a democracy, the stupid rule, and the informed are the minority. Man-made global warming is a perfect example. How many billions are blown on a largely disproven theory? Why?

Because the stupid rule. As long as 51% of the ignorant are stupid enough to believe that less than 0.01% of our atmosphere, created by humans, is enough to wipe out life as we know it on the planet... then the politicians will sink us ever farther into socialism and control under the guise of saving the planet.

And even if I were to believe there is hope that Americans could learn the error of their ways before having to shoot their own foot off, what can one 32 year old, unemployed, single guy in Hilliard Ohio, who doesn't have a college degree do? Answer... nothing. Whatever happens, will happen whether I wish it or not. Do I vote? Sure. You see how well that worked last election. I had two options: Democrat, or Democrat wannabe.

You might ask why I come here then. It's simply an enjoyable pass-time to discuss various topics. Like playing cards, or watching TV to some. But I'm under no illusion that my words will be of any benefit to anyone here, or otherwise, let alone society at large.