Lib Challenge - How does raising taxes help?

[Mr. Shaman]

You can bend it, twist it all you want. Numbers don't lie. Taxes always effect the middle and lower class, more than they do the rich.

....At least, that's what the popular-rhetoric proclaims.

"If the Republicans are looking around for an icon to worship, they might consider Bill Clinton. He cut spending from 21.4 percent of GDP to 18.5 percent. That's three times as much as Reagan. True, he raised taxes from 17.6 percent to 19.8 percent, but that's still a smaller chunk than the government was claiming when Reagan left office. And, of course, he left us with an annual surplus that threatened to eliminate the national debt."

Yeah.....Bill Clinton damned-near taxed the Entire-Country into total-bankruptcy!!!

​

 

[BigRob]

Yeah.....that made a reeeaaallly big difference.

Well yes, it does make a difference. You have to have tax cuts and spending cuts at the same time however.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Well yes, it does make a difference. You have to have tax cuts and spending cuts at the same time however.

Hey....I know that.....but, I wasn't the one pitchin' the Reagan Admin's tax revenue increases.

 

[Sihouette]

OMG!

I just realized we're having a lucid conversation without partisan mud-slinging!!!

And they said it could never be done...lol...

I still think actual earned dollars vs gambler's (stock market) or deeded income that exceeds a certain amount per year should be penalized. This would cut back on just one entity owning too much stock...provide more opportunities for more people to hold interest in companies from the stock market angle. And huge gravy chunks deeded to trust-fund babies like Paris Hilton would be taxed up the wazoo.

Personally, if bums can get along on streetcorners in NY NY, I think people making $250K a year profits sure can too. I've known quite a few people that got along just fine in NY on a fraction of 250K. So they had to cook for themselves instead of eat out three meals a day, and they had to settle for $350 suits instead of $3,500 ones. They were just fine.

Super-rich need to get a clue. Perhaps the rewards for hard work can be a slightly-elevated standard of living instead of a disgustingly-elevated standard of living. Part of the additional payoff is that people won't hate you as much and you can feel satisfied knowing your neighbors have enough to eat, instead of seeing them begging for filth on the streetcorners and then having to take Zanax in order to sleep at night.

See, this is why pure capitalism doesn't work. Grifting narcissists almost always float to the top of the money pool, being made of offal like they are. The true solid citizens sink to the bottom and have feed off of what the narso's defecate.

Our system rewards greed, not innovation. And this is the pity. We neglected to factor in morality when we decided to worship capitalism. What usually starts out as innovation, is motivated at its heart by greed. This is the dragon eating its tail. Greed eventually takes over and cuts its own throat by neglecting the very elements (workers and consumers) that it sought to court in the beginning.

I don't have all the answers. We need innovation that capitalism brings. But we also need morality that socialism brings. Somehow we need to keep a cap on immorality and greed while marrying capitalism and socialism.

With MTV and all those other amoral channels and media outlets....good luck with that..

 

[chestnut]

I still stand by my challenge, and it still has not been proven on this forum.

Raising taxes does nothing to create jobs. It does not create innovation, it creates nothing.


So why do it? Why raise taxes when we all know the jobless numbers go up and up?

Yes there are those that are not as well off. Most of us are already paying enough to handle those.
We need to stop letting the illegals in who are not paying thier fair share. Let's not forget, if they were paying taxes we may not be in such a mess.

No answer is ever going to fit all the people in the US.
But be sure that raising taxes not a fix. Never will be and that can't be denied!

I never once heard a person say,
"Hey look, they didn't take enough money out of my paycheck" You only hear.
"Hey how come I didn't get more of that free money"

Cutting taxes, and spending have to be at the top of the list. Yes greed needs to be controlled. But don't assume greed is just on the shoulders of one party in Washington, or Wall Street.

Greed is on everyone's shoulder.

 

[Sihouette]

Illegals work for a third of what citizens work for. When was the last time you had 2/3 of your paycheck removed for taxes? Also, you wouldn't believe the price of food if we hired citizens at minimum wage to produce it. Loaves of bread for $10 anyone?

See, it's a dirty little problem we don't want to talk about.

And raising luxury taxes will help redistribute wealth to the working classes. Allow some luxury, but within reason. Anything beyond reason will be taxed heavily. That $$ number of reason needs closely looking into. And perhaps this only need be temporary until our economy (the working people) recover.

Do you agree that we need penalties for shipping jobs overseas? That's a question I'd like to see hashed out.

 

[chestnut]

So working for less helps the economy. It devalues what people get paid. No one said they had to come here. If it sucks here, they can go back. They made a choice. Also since they don't pay taxes, it continually drains or social security (not real secure any more)

On the point of Luxury.. Who can decide what is reasonable income. Some of the wealthiest movie stars, who are liberals, would fight tooth and nail if they were asked for their money up front at signing time. "Who says you need 20m, we feel you only need 300k. We'll take the rest now". They would flip.

I don't believe in jobs being shipped overseas, but remember, the people with the business that keep getting taxed more and more and the unions that impose more more, they just want to be left alone to make their own decisions.
So let's fix the problem. Not exasserbate it more by taxing them more and giving more power to unions and promoting unions. Talk about paying citizens too much. How many factory workers deserve 20 - 30 per hour for unskilled labor. That just adds more cost to the product and forces the hand of the business owner to find labor elsewhere.

It is the constant meddling of government screwing things up. The need to stay ouf of it.


This isn't about whose right or whose wrong. It is about inherent freedoms we all have to pursue what we desire. Straddling someone with someone elses life is a form of slavery.

You have to agree that if the illegals actually paid taxes, or better yet, came here legally and in a fashion that many of the early legal immigrants did, the problems facing America would be fewer.

 

[BigRob]

Hey....I know that.....but, I wasn't the one pitchin' the Reagan Admin's tax revenue increases.

Well, when you are going to increase spending as much as Obama proposes, it tends to make sense to follow the plan that generates the most revenue don't you think?

The problem is Obama does not care about the revenue, he cares about "fairness." In an interview with Charlie Gibson he was discussing how lower capital gains rates generated more revenue, and he said he would still raise the rates in the interest of fairness.

It is basically like someone wanting to spend $50,000 a year on their life, so instead of taking the job paying $50,000 they take the job paying $30,000 because it is "fair." It makes no sense.

 

[BigRob]

Illegals work for a third of what citizens work for. When was the last time you had 2/3 of your paycheck removed for taxes? Also, you wouldn't believe the price of food if we hired citizens at minimum wage to produce it. Loaves of bread for $10 anyone?

You seem to be in favor on bringing cheap labor into the country, why is it that we cannot export manufacturing to another country for cheap labor? You want everything made in the USA, it will cost you as well.

And raising luxury taxes will help redistribute wealth to the working classes. Allow some luxury, but within reason. Anything beyond reason will be taxed heavily. That $$ number of reason needs closely looking into. And perhaps this only need be temporary until our economy (the working people) recover.

Do you agree that we need penalties for shipping jobs overseas? That's a question I'd like to see hashed out.

Clinton actually cut luxury taxes. Further, what is "beyond reason."

I do not agree we need penalties for shipping jobs overseas, because I believe in globalization.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I have run my own business in the past. I have a pretty good handle on supply and demand and how much taxes and regulations hurt a business. I understand what it takes to keep quality employees or my business gets hurt. I stayed self employed for 14 yrs. I did it. Not a 501c not a govermnent handout, not any help from anyone but me.

With that being said, I challenge any Obama supporter to show proof positiive that raising taxes does anything for creating jobs.

Jobs get created by supply and demand. Jobs get created by people who have freedoms to pursue them. Taxes do not create any jobs for anyone.

Put a levy too great on business owners and they will close up and simply do something else, regardless of people they employ.

That's just the facts and you Obam supporters have not yet or will not in the future be able to win that argument.


McCain/Palin 08

How does a tax cut for 95% of americans help a small buisness? wait sorry that was to easy of a question

How do repuplicans think that you can cut taxes all the time, increase spending all the time, and they call anyone who actuly pays for spending a socialist? What does that make them?

Start a major war? costing billions? cut taxes
Economy doing Well? Cut taxes ( bush pre 2000)
Econ going down...odd same tax cut
Largest debt ever? Cut taxes
Biggest growth of government spending? Cut taxes
Elections? Cut taxes
sun rose? cut taxes
Asked about Gov Bail out, talk about cutting taxes (also can be used for other questions Palin does not know)
Have not cought or killed Bin Laden? Say you know how, then cut taxes...never mind that in 8 years this knowing how has yet to surface
we just gave out a trillion bucks to bail out banks? Lets cut taxes as well
Debt ? what debt, you mean tax cut?
man that other war is getting bad again, in Afghanistan...lets cut taxes


and if that fails, Bash gays and attack patriotism of the left.

 

[BigRob]

How does a tax cut for 95% of americans help a small buisness? wait sorry that was to easy of a question

How do repuplicans think that you can cut taxes all the time, increase spending all the time, and they call anyone who actuly pays for spending a socialist? What does that make them?

Start a major war? costing billions? cut taxes
Economy doing Well? Cut taxes ( bush pre 2000)
Econ going down...odd same tax cut
Largest debt ever? Cut taxes
Biggest growth of government spending? Cut taxes
Elections? Cut taxes
sun rose? cut taxes
Asked about Gov Bail out, talk about cutting taxes (also can be used for other questions Palin does not know)
Have not cought or killed Bin Laden? Say you know how, then cut taxes...never mind that in 8 years this knowing how has yet to surface
we just gave out a trillion bucks to bail out banks? Lets cut taxes as well
Debt ? what debt, you mean tax cut?
man that other war is getting bad again, in Afghanistan...lets cut taxes


and if that fails, Bash gays and attack patriotism of the left.

I have no idea how on Earth you are attacking Republicans for cutting taxes during a war and not cutting spending, and in the same breath telling us that Obama is great because he will cut taxes for 95% of people. (40% of which do not even pay tax to begin with)

Maybe you need to reevaluate the party you support. That party has stated we need to ignore the deficit right now. Your candidate is promising tax cuts along with over 300 billion a year in new spending (on top of the Bush budget).

 

[chestnut]

How does a tax cut for 95% of americans help a small buisness? wait sorry that was to easy of a question

How do repuplicans think that you can cut taxes all the time, increase spending all the time, and they call anyone who actuly pays for spending a socialist? What does that make them?

Start a major war? costing billions? cut taxes
Economy doing Well? Cut taxes ( bush pre 2000)
Econ going down...odd same tax cut
Largest debt ever? Cut taxes
Biggest growth of government spending? Cut taxes
Elections? Cut taxes
sun rose? cut taxes
Asked about Gov Bail out, talk about cutting taxes (also can be used for other questions Palin does not know)
Have not cought or killed Bin Laden? Say you know how, then cut taxes...never mind that in 8 years this knowing how has yet to surface
we just gave out a trillion bucks to bail out banks? Lets cut taxes as well
Debt ? what debt, you mean tax cut?
man that other war is getting bad again, in Afghanistan...lets cut taxes


and if that fails, Bash gays and attack patriotism of the left.

I did not challenge anyone about cutting taxes. We know the benefits of that. I simply challenged that raising taxes is not going to create Jobs. Obama claims he's going to create jobs. I don't see how if he's going to raise taxes on corporations and on those that have money to start businesses and expand their businesses. It can't happen. It's impossible.

 

[GenSeneca]

Want more revenue from taxes? The GDP of the nation has to grow.

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.pdf

Page 4 on the above link shows that from 1968-2007, despite tax rates, tax revenue remains pretty constant, at or around 18% of total GDP.

Forgive me Chestnut but I have a tangential question related to your topic:

Since so many on the left have rejected supply side economics and have bought into the idea that our economy can be built from "the ground up", I'd like to know exactly how that's done. (Although I doubt any of the Obama supporters have actually bothered to ask for details and could care less about the practicality of such assertions... it just sounds good.)

 

[laughinatreps]

The best way to get reinvestment in the economy that will not tank the economy through inflation is to cut taxes and let people do it themselves.

MM Hmmm, like that has worked for the last 8 years just like ol GW wanted right?

You just blew away your own argument. sigh no wonder we are in the situation we are in......

 

[Libsmasher]

MM Hmmm, like that has worked for the last 8 years just like ol GW wanted right?

You just blew away your own argument. sigh no wonder we are in the situation we are in......

You actually believe RAISING taxes would get a country out of a recession? Are you capable of writing a single line that doesn't reveal you as an imbecile?