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Libertarian...

Discussion in 'Elections & Political Parties' started by cashmcall, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. cashmcall

    cashmcall Well-Known Member

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    I am not a libertarian,(but i have been considering it) although I more often than not agree with libertarians on economic and fiscal issues. I have a question: granting that neither the left nor the right in America shares your philosophical commitment to "freedom across the board," which is the greater danger to that commitment: the right's threat to "lifestyle" liberty or the left's threat to economic liberty?
    I think it's pretty clear, at this late date, that the former "threat" is almost entirely theoretical.

    this Associated Press story by Nicholas Riccardi. The article is more interesting than the headline would suggest because its author found libertarian elements in the political shift in the west...
    It is heartening that Democratic Party strategist Bill Carrick recognizes the somewhat libertarian shift in the Western U.S. electorate ("West Taking Sharp Left Turn," Jan. 27.) But one quote from Carrick shows a basic misunderstanding of libertarian views and principles.
    Carrick states, "The libertarian thing is no longer about property rights or gun rights. It's now aboutletting people live their lives as they choose."
    On the contrary, the libertarian "thing" has always been about letting people live their lives as they choose. And their right to use their property as they choose and to defend themselves with guns is still part of that.
    Consider property rights. Governments in California and elsewhere in the West often prevent people from adding a bathroom, adding an extra room or cutting down a tree without government permission. These are all violations of property rights, just as restrictions on gay marriage or using marijuana violate their other rights.
    Libertarianism is still the only philosophy that consistently advocates freedom across the board.
     
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  2. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    After several years on this board I have moved slowly toward Libertarianism and now I would have to say it is the word that best describes me. It is also the most consistent and moral political philosophy I know of. Tempered with some morals and there is hope for the country.
     
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  3. Gipper

    Gipper Well-Known Member

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    Yes I have become more a Libertarian than Conservative over the past few years. I think this has to do with the changing definition of conservatism.
    Rs claim to be the party of conservatism, but they have lost their way and perverted the true definition of conservatism. They really are not conservatives at all. They have left the traditional values of small government, low taxation and regulation, individual liberty, and strict adherence to the Constitution (the original meaning). However Libertarianism holds these values.
     
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  4. cashmcall

    cashmcall Well-Known Member

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    As a christian I have a few concerns..The libertarian position on gay marriage is puzzling to me. If any two people in America want to rent a church and have a commitment ceremony it is legal and no government will try to stop them. If a business wants to extend spousal health care to lovers no government will try to stop them.
    Yet after gay marriage is passes citizens who do not want to provide services to gay weddings are sued and businesses are forced to treat gay marriages the same as real ones.
    Shouldn't the libertarian position be the one where the people get to decide what marriage is and not the government?
     
  5. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    No. Caveat being the ability to show how if infringes on the life libertry or property of another. Thats the bar by which you determine the libertarian position.

    Now it is possible to make that case but not in terms of what you present.
     
  6. cashmcall

    cashmcall Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask this..
    Would the Libertarians party experience a boom if they conceded property isn't the basis of everything and just focused on reducing the scope of government?
    I think the answer is yes....
     
  7. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Let me ask you this... would the communists experience a boom if they dropped the collectivist stuff ?

    Of course each probably would but they would both cease to be what they are, at their core, all about.

    Libertarians will tell you that government would naturally grow smaller if it would respect the rights of the people and stick to what was constitutionally authorized.

    But property rights (as a component of all rights) are a critical component of their ideology.
     
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  8. cashmcall

    cashmcall Well-Known Member

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    well said..
     
  9. cashmcall

    cashmcall Well-Known Member

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    For some reason, society has not allowed a role for someone who is both Christian and a libertarian.​
    Christian opposition to libertarianism is not new. The debate over Ayn Rand, called by some the "high priestess of the Church of Mammon,” has been relentless within Christian circles. Many Christians say that they cannot be separated. Two Cents blogger Nathan Hitchens has said that there is “profound hypocrisy” in a Christian supporting any part of Ayn Rand’s philosophy...

    IMO there is no perfect system. A Christian should always first and foremost be a true believer. That doesn't mean we remove ourselves from politics today, but we must remember that any position we take is a temporary compromise. That being said, if you look at the Garden of Eden, it was basically a libertarian society. In the time of the Judges they had an extremely limited government. But as a result everyone did what was right in his own eyes. So the people cried out for a king. But Samuel (and God in the Mosaic Law) warned them that king will increase the power of the government and take all the best things from his people. I feel like we're in the same place today, crying for a king instead of waiting patiently for the kingdom of God.​
     
  10. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    --scratches head--
    IMO libertarian is the perfect ideology for Christians. Now I doubt society can handle libertarianism given how its let itself become a society of parasites. The safety net has gone from hammock right to pillowtop kingsized bed.
     
  11. cashmcall

    cashmcall Well-Known Member

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    That one made me think...
     
  12. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    : )

    most people who are responsible and productive members of society have much to be in agreement with on libertarianism.
    there are sticky point such as open borders legalized drugs and isolationism that turn people off but its hard to argue the rest if you have property you would like to be left untouched by govt.
     
  13. Gipper

    Gipper Well-Known Member

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    Like all political beliefs, Libertarians have varying beliefs. The three 'sticky points' you mentioned need further explanation.
    Legalized drugs - I used to be against, but have changed my opinion. The war on drugs has been a dismal failure resulting in making the nation a police state and expanding government.
    Isolationism - this is commonly misunderstood...libertarians are not isolationist, but non-interventionists...big difference.
    Open borders - most libertarians are not for open borders, if the result harms the nation. I think open borders does harm the nation and as such, am against it. Immigration is fine if it is done in an orderly basis.
     
  14. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    the Libertarian philosophy is that the purpose of government was expressed in the Declaration of Independence: It is to secure these rights (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) that governments are instituted among men.

    Any law, therefore, that doesn't protect our liberty is a bad law. Government actions that don't serve to protect our liberties are not necessary.

    Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans follow a philosophy like that. Both are all about increased government authority and less individual liberty.
     
  15. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    It is true that there are far more people who embrace X% of the libertarisn platform than those who embrace it 100%. This is generally true of any such party platform.

    Glad you have seen the light on the illegal drugs. It is quite enough for me to use the protection afforded should the drug use infringe on my life liberty or property. Big waste of money pretending to eliminate it. Its not stopping anyone and has empowered organized crime. I have to wonder if all those politicians who the Dons carry in their pocket like so much change didn't come up with these prohibitions at the behest of the Dons who owned them.

    Re open borders, I suppose the new libertarians that came on board with Ron Paul may not support this but it really is a key element to the core of it. Its a tough one for people as it will demand competition at a very personal level. People whether being aware of it or not kind of like the government offering up this level of protectionism. Kind of sounds different when you think of it in libertarian terms. But think back a hundred years or more and you will see that this policy made this country the productive dynamo it was. People even then fought it as they wanted that level of protectionism.
     
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