Liberty and justice for all

[Dr.Who]

"I pledge [or affirm] allegiance to the Flag [symbolic of the nation and state] of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God [insert your own favorite if need be], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Where do you stand?

 

[TheFranklinParty]

I had the opportunity to spend some time behind the "iron curtain" back in 1978 and I came home kissed the ground and honor the flag. People can talk about other countries, political systems, and other economic strategies; but nowhere in the world do you have the opportunity and the freedom that we have here in the United States of America.

 

[dahermit]

"I pledge [or affirm] allegiance to the Flag [symbolic of the nation and state] of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God [insert your own favorite if need be], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Where do you stand?

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution (pledging allegiance to a flag is too ambiguous and could be interpreted to mean unconditional, as in the Nazi blood oath) of the United States of America, and to the freedoms which it guarantees, one Nation (God has nothing to do with politics, despite the disgusting McCarty, gestapo like communist hunting era ), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

But, I am against the custom of a public display of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance inasmuch as it serves no legitimate purpose other than to coerce people to follow suit or be obvious non-participants. In other words, it serves no purpose other than to identify those who are not willing to recite it.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution (pledging allegiance to a flag is too ambiguous and could be interpreted to mean unconditional, as in the Nazi blood oath) of the United States of America, and to the freedoms which it guarantees, one Nation (God has nothing to do with politics, despite the disgusting McCarty, gestapo like communist hunting era ), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

But, I am against the custom of a public display of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance inasmuch as it serves no legitimate purpose other than to coerce people to follow suit or be obvious non-participants. In other words, it serves no purpose other than to identify those who are not willing to recite it.

Interesting...and I never quite understood why we pledge allegiance to a flag instead of verbally pledging to up hold the Constitution of the United States...face the flag if we must and say the pledge and having the wording of 'GOD' has made it OK for non-GOD faithed based religions to not have to say the pledge of allegiance in school so why bother???

 

[Dr.Who]

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution (pledging allegiance to a flag is too ambiguous and could be interpreted to mean unconditional, as in the Nazi blood oath) of the United States of America, and to the freedoms which it guarantees, one Nation (God has nothing to do with politics, despite the disgusting McCarty, gestapo like communist hunting era ), indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

But, I am against the custom of a public display of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance inasmuch as it serves no legitimate purpose other than to coerce people to follow suit or be obvious non-participants. In other words, it serves no purpose other than to identify those who are not willing to recite it.

That seems fair enough.

So how much do you value and support liberty and justice for all? Is there anything that you value more than liberty and justice for all?

 

[Dr.Who]

Interesting...and I never quite understood why we pledge allegiance to a flag instead of verbally pledging to up hold the Constitution of the United States...face the flag if we must and say the pledge and having the wording of 'GOD' has made it OK for non-GOD faithed based religions to not have to say the pledge of allegiance in school so why bother???

You make an excellent point. It WOULD be better if school children learned the importance of the constitution versus the flag.

 

[dahermit]

That seems fair enough.

So how much do you value and support liberty and justice for all? ?

$123.00 worth.

Is there anything that you value more than liberty and justice for all?

Yes, food, water, and roof over my head. See Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

 

[chestnut]

The flag is the symbol of our freedoms and those brave soldiers that have fought and continue to fight for our freedoms.

Those freedoms layed out in the constitution. It seems plausable to use the flag as that symbol in that sense.

The under god part is to remind us that we were endowed with those freedoms and inalienable rights from our creator.

Yes there are those that do not believe that, that's fine and this is not an argument about that, but, overall, America is still a Christian-Judeo society.

I think it is a great thing for the kids to show allegiance to their country and to repsect their freedoms.

Public schools tend to indoctrinate kids to love the government and less about the history of this nation and the forefathers. So of course, they have no problem trying to abolish the pledge (and in some cases have abolished it)

 

[dahermit]

The flag is the symbol of our freedoms and those brave soldiers that have fought and continue to fight for our freedoms.)

Originally flags were used on the field of battle to identify rallying points when soldiers god dispersed during battle. It may be for you, but it is just an object made of cloth that is used to identify a country.

Those freedoms layed out in the constitution. It seems plausable to use the flag as that symbol in that sense.)

Why do we need a symbol?

The under god part is to remind us that we were endowed with those freedoms and inalienable rights from our creator.)

"Under God" was inserted in the pledge during the McCarty witch hunt for communists in the 1950's..."Commies are godless."

Yes there are those that do not believe that, that's fine and this is not an argument about that, but, overall, America is still a Christian-Judeo society. )

Navajo, Iroquois, Seminole, Eskimo, Apache, Sioux, Crow, Blackfoot, Nez Pierce, etc., are not Christian-Judeo.

I think it is a great thing for the kids to show allegiance to their country and to repsect their freedoms. )

What they are showing is robot-like actions that are little different from the Hitler Youth shouting "Sig Hiel" in unison. They are completely unaware of its ambiguous nature ( What does pledging allegiance to the flag (Why not country")really mean? How different is it than: Ein Folk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer?. It is indoctrination.

Public schools tend to indoctrinate kids to love the government and less about the history of this nation and the forefathers. So of course, they have no problem trying to abolish the pledge (and in some cases have abolished it)

How does reciting the pledge teach about history? And, what do the forefathers have to do with the pledge of aleigance?...It was not created until about 1918.

 

[TheFranklinParty]

Originally flags were used on the field of battle to identify rallying points when soldiers god dispersed during battle. It may be for you, but it is just an object made of cloth that is used to identify a country.
Why do we need a symbol?"Under God" was inserted in the pledge during the McCarty witch hunt for communists in the 1950's..."Commies are godless."
Navajo, Iroquois, Seminole, Eskimo, Apache, Sioux, Crow, Blackfoot, Nez Pierce, etc., are not Christian-Judeo.
What they are showing is robot-like actions that are little different from the Hitler Youth shouting "Sig Hiel" in unison. They are completely unaware of its ambiguous nature ( What does pledging allegiance to the flag (Why not country")really mean? How different is it than: Ein Folk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer?. It is indoctrination.
How does reciting the pledge teach about history? And, what do the forefathers have to do with the pledge of aleigance?...It was not created until about 1918.

Wow, your logical argument just crashed and burned for me. I get the conceptual idea of what you are saying but bring it home to the world of reality.

Most people in this country believe in some for of God. For those who don't, get over it. Just don't say that part. There are plenty of laws that I don't like, but this is a Democratic Republic and the majority should rule. If you don't like that convince the majority or move to Costa Rica.
As much as I hated McCarthy's tactics, he was right. If he had only done his homework instead of guessing, he would have uncovered real treason and spying going on right within the beltway and at government contractors.
The flag is a simple single representation of freedom, liberty, and capitalism. It is recognized world wide. Our young people need to have something to believe in. I like the idea of them looking at the flag with pride and respect because it is an ideal. The government at different times can make mistakes but the ideal stands.
Please stop with the Nazi references. The indoctrination to the Nazi or many of the Communist agenda is a far cry different then what we are talking about. As I said earlier, I've seen first hand the difference and it is staggering.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I dont belive in god, so for me to pledge that means I have to lie therefor as stated I do not. Under the original before they added under god, then I could say it and not have to lie in it. some suggest just ignore that part and say it regardless...but what good is a pledge if you have to knowingly lie to make it...holds little water

 

[TheFranklinParty]

I dont belive in god, so for me to pledge that means I have to lie therefor as stated I do not. Under the original before they added under god, then I could say it and not have to lie in it. some suggest just ignore that part and say it regardless...but what good is a pledge if you have to knowingly lie to make it...holds little water

I get your point, but you have to realize that we live in a Democratic Republic the majority gets to write the rules. I didn't agree with Vietnam, but I still pledged my allegiance to the Untied States. I don't believe in Social Security or our current Immigration law, but I still will pledge my allegiance.

I think the point is that it isn't about the words. It is about the feeling you get when you look at the flag and its representation of life, liberty and the pursued of happiness. The leaders will be good and bad. They will come and go. The symbol of freedom and capitalism will always be here if we can stay committed to it.

 

[Dr.Who]

Dr. Who: So how much do you value and support liberty and justice for all? ?

dahermit:$123.00 worth.

Dr.Who: Is there anything that you value more than liberty and justice for all?

dahermit:
Yes, food, water, and roof over my head. See Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

Yes well that explains a lot.

It is views like that which will destroy our country. Not only is it in error but it is a despicable line of thought.

The rest of us need to recognize who the enemy is and work hard to destroy his selfish notions in the free market of ideas.

Anyone who has served in the military should see that he has just discounted what you have risked your life for. Anyone who has made a sacrifice to ensure any freedom at all should know that Dahermit is working against you. Do you value civil rights? Any of them? Then Dahermit is working against your cause. He was not just asked how he felt about his own liberty but he was asked how he felt about liberty and justice FOR ALL. And he clearly valued his own immediate needs more than YOUR liberty and justice.

If more people thought like you [Dahermit] this country would not even exist. Without freedom you will lose the rest.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death."
-- Patrick Henry

"As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions."
-- James Madison

"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Ben Franklin

"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that, if it is comfort or money it values more, it will lose that too."
-- William Somerset Maughan

 

[Dr.Who]

I dont belive in god, so for me to pledge that means I have to lie therefor as stated I do not. Under the original before they added under god, then I could say it and not have to lie in it. some suggest just ignore that part and say it regardless...but what good is a pledge if you have to knowingly lie to make it...holds little water

I would have thought that the title of this thread would have indicated that the focus was on the liberty and justice part and not about the God part of the pledge.

I would have further thought that adding "[insert your own favorite here]" would have made it more clear that the thread is not about the concept of God in the pledge. If your favorite is not god at all then insert that. You will not be lying in this thread because God is not necessarily a part of that pledge.

 

[Dr.Who]

I would add that Dahermit said he pledged allegience to the constitution which promises liberty and justice for all and then a moment later contradicted himself.