Liberty and justice for all

[dahermit]

Get over yourself...stop being so petty and answer the question. You either love the idea of this country or you don't...plain and simple, that is the question at hand? Well, do you? If so, then we are on common ground and we can figure out our differences.

It is only plain and simple if a person is "plain and simple."

There are times when I do not love this country. For instance, when a USA government entity shot the 14 year old Weaver Kid. Or, when a government sniper shot Vicky Weaver while attempting to shoot someone else. Or when government entities precipitated a massacre near El Paso. Or when American sniper soldiers wearing Gillie suits shot and killed an innocent high school student who was herding his goats near the Rio Grand. Or when American soldiers in Afghanistan tortured a taxi driver to death(See documentary: Taxi to nowhere), while in detention without even questioning him. Like when the military prosecuted a female soldier who attempted to gather evidence that the U.S. military had tortured that man to death. Or when torture of suspects (some of the same methods that horrified us when they were applied to American soldiers in WWII, and Korea), becomes acceptable.

I love what this country was susposed to be, but not what it frequently is. So you see, it is only "plain and simple" to a dullard.

If not, then there is plenty of real estate on this planet.

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Oh great, the "love it or leave it", platitude. Get over yourself.

 

[TheFranklinParty]

It is only plain and simple if a person is "plain and simple."

There are times when I do not love this country. For instance, when a USA government entity shot the 14 year old Weaver Kid. Or, when a government sniper shot Vicky Weaver while attempting to shoot someone else. Or when government entities precipitated a massacre near El Paso. Or when American sniper soldiers wearing Gillie suits shot and killed an innocent high school student who was herding his goats near the Rio Grand. Or when American soldiers in Afghanistan tortured a taxi driver to death(See documentary: Taxi to nowhere), while in detention without even questioning him. Like when the military prosecuted a female soldier who attempted to gather evidence that the U.S. military had tortured that man to death. Or when torture of suspects (some of the same methods that horrified us when they were applied to American soldiers in WWII, and Korea), becomes acceptable.

I love what this country was supposed to be, but not what it frequently is.

.
Oh great, the "love it or leave it", platitude. Get over yourself.

Here is the problem...you relate the actions of people to the love of an ideal. Using your logic I would have blown my brains out because I would have hated the the human race for what they did to my Polish ancestors in WWII. I would have blown my brains out for what the Moulin Rouge did to hundreds of thousands of their own people. I would have left this country for the biological testing they did on my father and other WWII vets. I would have hated this country for the dishonesty of FDR, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Carter, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., and Obama.

At what point do you not understand that those are acts of people. If you don't like the way these things went then you have a vote and you have a voice. Those are allowed you by the ideal of this country and the men and women who protect it.

Its like children, you can hate what they, do but you still love the child.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Here is the problem...you relate the actions of people to the love of an ideal. Using your logic I would have blown my brains out because I would have hated the the human race for what they did to my Polish ancestors in WWII. I would have blown my brains out for what the Moulin Rouge did to hundreds of thousands of their own people. I would have left this country for the biological testing they did on my father and other WWII vets. I would have hated this country for the dishonesty of FDR, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Carter, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., and Obama.

At what point do you not understand that those are acts of people. If you don't like the way these things went then you have a vote and you have a voice. Those are allowed you by the ideal of this country and the men and women who protect it.

Its like children, you can hate what they, do but you still love the child.

the acts of people with the support of the people...and the people are the goverment and the people are america...without the people...its just a chunk of land...what good are the ideas, if not held to the people to the actions of people?

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

It is only plain and simple if a person is "plain and simple."

There are times when I do not love this country. For instance, when a USA government entity shot the 14 year old Weaver Kid. Or, when a government sniper shot Vicky Weaver while attempting to shoot someone else. Or when government entities precipitated a massacre near El Paso. Or when American sniper soldiers wearing Gillie suits shot and killed an innocent high school student who was herding his goats near the Rio Grand. Or when American soldiers in Afghanistan tortured a taxi driver to death(See documentary: Taxi to nowhere), while in detention without even questioning him. Like when the military prosecuted a female soldier who attempted to gather evidence that the U.S. military had tortured that man to death. Or when torture of suspects (some of the same methods that horrified us when they were applied to American soldiers in WWII, and Korea), becomes acceptable.

I love what this country was susposed to be, but not what it frequently is. So you see, it is only "plain and simple" to a dullard.

.
Oh great, the "love it or leave it", platitude. Get over yourself.

DAM...THAT WAS WELL STATED/WRITTEN AND EXACTLY WHAT/HOW I FEEL TOO

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Dahermit said:

The pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the military or service in it. It is a foolish, meaningless civilian ceremony. I have served in the military, all three of my brothers also have served. The pledge of allegiance is not used in the military, this is: I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Now, wherein does it mention "flag"?

I knew that and just couldn't remember the entire thing until you posted it...THANKS, that sure brought back many a memory.

My father taught me that pledge and said that that was what our founding forefathers had in mind and what our pledge of alegiance should have been about. And I agree whole heartedly too!

 

[Dr.Who]

I must revisit this. The question is so ambiguous as to be stupid. How could anyone quantify such a vague statement.

Also, for what it is worth, no everyone views the flag as a symbol for liberty and justice. Some see it as a symbol for our country, some see it as a symbol for the government. It is, at best, ambiguous.

It is very easy to quantify. Just say it is or is not very important to you.

No one? Apparently enough people see it that way that a pledge was written saying so and millions of people say the pledge everyday.

 

[Dr.Who]

No, your original post stated that the flag was a symbol for "nation and state".

Now you say that it is symbolic of liberty and justice...which is it? You seemed to have confused yourself.

It would be the "which" that makes me wrong.

I was trying to hard to be inclusive when I added the inserts that I went too far.

The pledge says it stands for the republic and that is the topic of this thread. I should have stuck to that. My first post needs to be revised in that regard.

 

[Dr.Who]

shameful.

How punny is that?

 

[Dr.Who]

DAM...THAT WAS WELL STATED/WRITTEN AND EXACTLY WHAT/HOW I FEEL TOO

Because in general the left likes to find reasons not to love this country and they can take a simple question and dance around it because they just don't have the same ideals as those the country was founded on.

Liberty and justice for all are fantastic ideals. I love them. We would all be much better off if we tried harder to live up to them. When we do not live up to them it is not a valid excuse to love the ideals less.

But they are in conflict with the ideal to engage in confiscatory tax policies and use the funds in ways that are antithetical to he constitution by enabling people with handouts that sometimes hurt them more than they help them.

Liberty, justice for all, and redistribution cannot all he valued at the same time. That is why a simple question becomes so hard.

 

[dahermit]

Because in general the left likes to find reasons not to love this country and they can take a simple question and dance around it because they just don't have the same ideals as those the country was founded on.

The "ideal" this country was founded on, was screwing the Indians out of their land. Where is the liberty and justice in that?

 

[PLC1]

The "ideal" this country was founded on, was screwing the Indians out of their land. Where is the liberty and justice in that?

I was going to disagree with Dr Who and say that "liberals" might dislike the people who are in power, depending on who that might be and what their philosophy is, but I'm afraid you just made his point for him.

 

[Dr.Who]

The "ideal" this country was founded on, was screwing the Indians out of their land. Where is the liberty and justice in that?

That would be an example of people not following the ideal and a reason to value the ideal more not less.

That is a reason to embrace the pledge and to throw away redistributionist policies. IN fact, the taking of the land from the Indians was redistribution.

 

[top gun]

That would be an example of people not following the ideal and a reason to value the ideal more not less.

That is a reason to embrace the pledge and to throw away redistributionist policies. IN fact, the taking of the land from the Indians was redistribution.

Taking the land from the Indians was not redistribution. It was the rich and more powerful taking advantage of the poor and less powerful.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Because in general the left likes to find reasons not to love this country and they can take a simple question and dance around it because they just don't have the same ideals as those the country was founded on.

LEFT-RIGHT, BLUE-RED, it doesn't matter the organization...I believe that I do know what our forefathers thought and why they chose to revolt against England and I think that given today's GREED/SCOUNDRALS/GOVERNMENT LOBBYIEST/CROCKED LIES FOR GETTING US INTO 2 WARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST...THAT MY FOREFATHERS WOULD BE RAISING HOLY HELL AND STARTING ANOTHER REVOLUTION TO PULL THOSE CROOKS OUT OF THEIR HIDDY HOLES AND STRING THEM UP!!! {taking a deep breath and releasing a heavy sigh}

Liberty and justice for all are fantastic ideals. I love them. We would all be much better off if we tried harder to live up to them. When we do not live up to them it is not a valid excuse to love the ideals less.

And on that I believe that all of America is in agreement!

But they are in conflict with the ideal to engage in confiscatory tax policies and use the funds in ways that are antithetical to he constitution by enabling people with handouts that sometimes hurt them more than they help them.

See, I don't agree with that at all and this is why. Our forefathers decided to go against the very same country that established us...settled us...sustained us and protected us....WHY, because England requested heavier taxes on our shipments {exports & imports} not everyone was paying those taxes...just SOME of the population were going to be hit with those taxes. They {the founding fathers} didn't just revolt for the wealthy they revolted for all of the Americans; poor/rich/land owners/indentured/slaves/commerce/ship owners/dock workers...for each and every one of us.

Liberty, justice for all, and redistribution cannot all he valued at the same time. That is why a simple question becomes so hard.

We the U N I T E D STATES OF AMERICA---FOR THE MANY, ONE COUNTRY.

I think I have a very good understanding about the whys and wherefores that this country was torn away from England and why we the many take care of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA as if we were ONE!!!

It isn't any different today, but some just want to keep saying it is!

I love my country and I vote so therefore I have the right to complain about my government...I'm entitled...don't cha know!